Instant NYT Bestseller!! Bianca Bosker, GET THE PICTURE: A Mind-Bending Journey Among the Inspired Artists and Obsessive Art Fiends Who Taught Me How to See
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[0:42]Bianca Bosker is the author of Get the Picture, a mind-bending journey among the inspired artists and obsessive art fiends who taught me how to see.
[0:51]Bianca is the New York Times best-selling author of Cork Dork and now more recently Get the Picture.
[0:56]A contributing writer at The Atlantic, she has also written for publications such as The New Yorker, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal.
[1:03]Her work has been recognized with awards from The New York Press Club, The Society of Professional Journalists, and more, and has been included in the Best American Travel Writing.
[1:11]Welcome, Bianca. Thank you so much for coming on mom's turn-of-time to read books to discuss Get the Picture, a mind-bending journey among the inspired artists and obsessive art fiends who taught me how to see congratulations.
[1:25]Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's so nice to speak with you.
[1:28]It's my pleasure and I'm so excited that we got to connect with the LA Times Festival of Books and made this happen.
[1:34]Awesome. They really put the festival in book festival, I would say, right? I mean, the food, the music.
[1:40]It just felt so celebratory. I loved it. I didn't want it to end.
[1:44]Yeah, I mean, I was a little tired. I have to be honest, but it was great.
[1:49]Well, your book is fabulous. I'm not surprised. It became an instant New York Times bestseller. Congratulations though. That must have felt amazing, right?
[1:56]Thank you. Yes, so exciting. It's like, you know, just, I mean, the book was five years in the making and, you know, I think every author obviously wants their book to find as many readers as possible and so it's a dream come true.
[2:08]It's amazing.
[2:09]Well, all the experiences that you write about and all the times spent, I mean, it's obvious.
[2:14]It's like, people have to give you a hat off just spending your life doing all these things and then writing about it at the same time so the rest of us don't have to do it.
[2:22]I don't have the thing. It's like, we get to learn through you and live vicariously and yet we don't have, we're not like in Miami or at an arc, you know, all the things that you do.
[2:31]So congratulations. It's exciting. So tell listeners more about the book.
[2:36]Yeah, so I would say that my like short elevator pitch, which I have honed at dinner table parties or dinner parties in the cocktail parties by just kind of seeing when people's eyes glaze over is that it is about the years I spent
[2:51]disowning my regular life as a journalist to sell art at galleries, work with artists in their studios, patrol museum wings as a security guard and more all is part of this journey to understand why does art matter and how do any of us engage with it more deeply.
[3:06]And to me, the book is part user guide to the hidden logic of the art world, which is very hidden and very deliberately hidden and also a quest to learn how to live life more expansively.
[3:18]I mean, this book for me really started from a place of not appreciating art. I'm not knowing how to engage with art. I feeling like I was, you know, I didn't know enough. I didn't belong and something clicked for me where I began to have this deep gnawing fear that by turning my back on art, I was missing out on something really big.
[3:39]And the people also really drew me in. I'm a writer who was obsessed with obsession and there was this magnetic passion of people in the art world that just intrigued me. I mean, I've never met a group of people willing to sacrifice so much for something of so little obvious practical value.
[3:54]And they also had this really intriguing approach to the world. You know, I felt like I was living this claustrophobic existence, whereas they had this expansive lease on life. They acted like they'd access these trap doors in their brains.
[4:11]And they also told me I lacked visual literacy, which they said was downright dangerous in the world. So saturated images, they've, you know, pitted me and it got me really intrigued and whether I could see art and whether I could see the world the way they did and what might change.
[4:24]If I couldn't, as you said, my way of trying to figure that out was to insert myself in the middle of the action.
[4:30]I love how at the end you're like looking at the supermarket in a whole different way.
[4:35]Yeah, really. I mean, it just, I mean, the art, yes, like opened me up to experiencing beauty in so many more places that I ever did before, but also like experiencing the every day, the way that we experience art, right.
[4:48]I write about this experience of, again, scanning in the frozen food section and I was totally sober at the time, but sort of having this experience and be like, oh my god, all of this is an art project. Like what if it was. I mean, and there's something really excited about that.
[5:01]And artists do that. They have this ability to walk down the street and sort of examine like a parked car as though it's a sculpture and take that extra beat linger on just the sort of miraculous fragility and impossibility of the everyday around us.
[5:17]And experience that jostle that we get from art everywhere.
[5:20]Have you figured out what makes someone inherently an artist?
[5:24]Hmm.
[5:27]I mean, I do believe that there is an artist in each of us to some extent, you know, I do think that artists like capital A artists, people who
[5:37]are self described as artists who work in studios with, you know, paint or computers or cameras will have you.
[5:46]Certainly there is this sense in which it is not even a decision. Like I remember asking, you know, artists, you know, why they did what they did and their answers made it sound like I was asking them why they eat food or drink water.
[6:02]Well, that's just what I have to do to survive or it's just the way I was born. And they really described it as, you know, less a career than just kind of a lifestyle and existence.
[6:17]That same token, you know, I should say that my book and my journey really focused on emerging up and coming artists, which to me, these are people who occupy the highest stakes and least covered part of the art world.
[6:31]You know, we hear so much about the big money, the big names and it is not at all representative of most people's experience of the art world.
[6:38]People are like, you know, at their every sale as a celebration, you know, artists are skimping on rent so that their art can live better than they do right like the art sleep sound in their studio they're waking up in a friend's couch covered in cat pee and I wish that was a hypothetical but it's not.
[6:55]I think that there's often this way in which artists are described as these streamers and sort of like fanciful people and on the one hand, they do have this fascinating approach to life that we can each learn from and on the other hand, they are freaking survivors, you know, they are people that just configure out how to put one step in front of another and both keep the lights on but also keep doing what feeds their souls.
[7:21]I'm just going back to the artist each of us, you know, I write about how for me, I believe that art I came to this understanding that art is a scientist and artists tell us fundamental to the human experience because it helps us fight the reducing tendencies of our minds.
[7:36]And I believe that there is an artist in each of us to the extent that we struggle to keep our brains, which they do automatically from compressing our experience of the world, you know art is a choice.
[7:47]It's great against complacency and it's a decision to live a more complex, more nuanced, more interesting and more beautiful life.
[7:55]But you have to work at it.
[7:57]It doesn't just happen, you've got to work at it.
[7:59]I mean, it's not so different from writing in a way, right? It's how you see the world, what makes someone a writer, how why do you do it?
[8:08]Like all the same questions you could put to writing a little bit, right? What do you think?
[8:13]Absolutely. Well, and I think that, you know, I got very interested in this question of what is art exactly prompted by an experience I had in which a nearly naked performance artist sat on my face for an art performance.
[8:27]And there's a lot of questions to me about, you know, where does art begin and end? How do we know it? How do we recognize that? And I was interested in what am I doing with my life?
[8:35]And I think that I was really interested to learn that first of all the experts have largely like thrown up their hands at dividing art, but also that for thousands of years art was really considered anything involving human ingenuity and skill.
[8:48]So when we talk about art these days, we tend to, so think of it in this narrow bandwidth of painting sculpture, maybe poetry, but it used to be that art was anything like passing laws, training horses, blowing glass, carving marble.
[9:04]And so while my own business card doesn't include the word artist on it, I do think that this is a question that I've been grappling with.
[9:12]And the conversation I've been having a lot of readers about like is a writer an artist, right? And is a nonfiction writer an artist is a journalist an artist.
[9:20]And I will say I've had interesting experiences of going to art exhibits and museums and seeing some of the work and there's one video piece in particular and I was like, that's of our video art.
[9:31]that's journalism to me, you know, like you sort of, you know, made a documentary. And so these are really interesting forest lines, but yeah, I don't know I'm still grappling with whether or not I get to call myself an artist.
[9:45]I'm still impressed you have business cards.
[9:49]Well, they still have my old books cover on them. I haven't gotten the new ones.
[9:53]I actually just got some really cute business cards from the places our place for doing this club with called Felix do little and I was like, well,
[10:00]Maybe I'll get these business cards
[10:01]and I'll start giving them out.
[10:03]And now I bring them in this school tin.
[10:04]I'm like, I feel so important.
[10:06]Yeah, no, it's great.
[10:08]And I don't know if anyone ever does anything with them,
[10:10]but it makes me feel like I've done something
[10:12]by giving someone this, I'm just a small offering.
[10:14]Exactly.
[10:15]But then I get people's cards and then I get home
[10:18]from these conferences and like what do I do
[10:19]with all of these?
[10:20]And then I show them in a drawer and I don't know.
[10:21]I'm always just a waste, but anyway.
[10:23]So go back to being, actually go back even further.
[10:26]So I saw you went to Princeton,
[10:28]but tell me like your life before then
[10:30]and when you knew you were someone
[10:32]who was obsessed with obsession or however
[10:34]you said it earlier, which is so cool.
[10:36]So I would say, yeah, grew up in Portland, Oregon.
[10:39]I was an only child so I did a lot of reading.
[10:42]Books are a very good one person activity.
[10:45]And I will say that I was obsessed with art.
[10:48]I mean, art was a huge part of my life.
[10:50]I like a lot of kids growing up.
[10:52]I painted and in high school I actually
[10:54]slirted with applying to art school.
[10:57]And then at some point, Adolph Bianca grabbed the wheel
[10:59]and in college I studied, you know,
[11:02]I mean, I was in East Asian studies major.
[11:04]I learned Chinese, I don't have time in China,
[11:05]but like I took classes in economics,
[11:07]never took classes in art history,
[11:09]took a few art classes along the way.
[11:10]And then kind of consoled myself with this idea
[11:14]that if I wasn't going to be an artist,
[11:15]at least I would appreciate art.
[11:17]And that dream lasted about tomorrow
[11:20]as it took me to move to New York
[11:21]and try to start seeing art on a regular basis
[11:24]where I just felt like I was totally out of my league.
[11:26]And as I said, kind of backed off
[11:28]and for a long time we weren't on speaking terms.
[11:31]But I, through college, I did a lot of writing and journalism.
[11:34]I was a part of a group called the University Press Club
[11:37]where we were like local student freelancers
[11:39]for publications, which is so fun I got to get paid
[11:43]and right for professional editors.
[11:45]It places like the Trenton Times.
[11:47]And I did a brief detour into the world of management consulting
[11:51]for various reasons.
[11:52]Didn't stick for a lot of other reasons.
[11:55]And we turned to journalism.
[11:56]I worked at half post for a few years
[11:58]and then quit to train as a sommelier.
[12:02]And that journey became a book quirk dork.
[12:05]I wrote a book before that about Chinese architecture
[12:07]and mark academic book.
[12:08]And then I've been working as a journalist and author
[12:11]and perhaps artists.
[12:12]I don't know what we want to call it ever since.
[12:15]Wow, that's amazing.
[12:16]So after you got, well, first of all,
[12:20]when you were going through all of these experiences,
[12:23]did you always know that you were doing it
[12:25]to make it a book in the end?
[12:27]And did you approach it differently?
[12:29]And how did you record all of that in the time
[12:32]to remember were you journaling every day?
[12:34]Or did you say like, I'm just going to figure it out
[12:36]and maybe it'll be a book?
[12:37]Yeah, so I mean, I will say that as a journalist,
[12:41]I have the sickness that infects a lot of journalists,
[12:46]which is to say that I can't do anything without thinking
[12:48]that it could become a story.
[12:49]Like I go on vacation and I'm like,
[12:51]oh, I'm interesting.
[12:52]Like maybe this could become a story.
[12:55]And I think that my brain is very much fly paper
[12:57]and I'm just constantly looking for ideas and inspiration.
[13:01]And so that's sort of the approach I take to everything,
[13:05]which is, I think I was the healthiest,
[13:07]but that's who I am.
[13:09]And I will say that for this, yeah,
[13:11]I embarked with this idea,
[13:13]like you never can't take anything for granted
[13:15]with a piece of writing.
[13:15]I'm always like, I believe it when I see it.
[13:17]Like what it's there and it's printed at its live.
[13:20]Like then I can say I have written a book
[13:21]and until that point,
[13:22]it's just you're kind of keeping your fingers crossed.
[13:24]But no, I was going into it with this idea
[13:27]that it could become a book.
[13:29]And you know, for readers who aren't really with the book
[13:32]as I alluded to before,
[13:33]I did take a somewhat untraditional approach
[13:36]to the reporting.
[13:37]I did interviews, I read books.
[13:39]You can see a lot of them behind me.
[13:40]These are actually exact two deep.
[13:42]There's a lot of art books
[13:43]and there's more than staring at around.
[13:46]But I also believe in learning by doing.
[13:48]And so I decided that I wanted to go and work in the art world.
[13:53]I wanted to figure out how it worked,
[13:57]how, like I said, any of us can engage with art more deeply
[14:00]by throwing myself into the center of the action.
[14:03]Because I think, first of all,
[14:04]the miraculous often emerges from the mundane.
[14:07]And I also felt like from my last experience with QuarkDork,
[14:11]you know, it's one thing for an art dealer
[14:13]to politely tell you how they sell a painting.
[14:16]And it's another, as I've now experienced,
[14:18]to spend five days on your beach,
[14:21]losing millionaires during art Basel, Miami, beaches, fairs,
[14:24]and selling thousands of dollars worth of art
[14:26]from the backseat of an Uber while people are doing
[14:28]okay, and around you.
[14:29]And those give you different insights
[14:31]into what's really going on.
[14:32]And so along the way, yeah, I took notes and notebooks.
[14:38]I recorded audio.
[14:40]I would make notes to myself just about what I was experiencing
[14:44]and what I was feeling and what I was thinking about.
[14:46]And it was very funny to kind of read back
[14:50]some of the early notes that I made to myself
[14:52]as I got further on in the journey.
[14:54]Cause I was like, oh, how embarrassing that you didn't know
[14:57]that, yeah, we're like, how embarrassing.
[14:58]You didn't know that artists was or like,
[15:00]how could you not have understood this that the other?
[15:02]But the reality is that the art world is very opaque
[15:06]by design.
[15:07]I think that there is a way in which it views secrecy
[15:09]as key to its survival.
[15:12]And it's true that there are a lot of things that go on
[15:14]that could pass for absurd, unethical, illegal,
[15:18]anywhere else.
[15:19]And so if you haven't taken this sort of mafia
[15:21]like vow of silence, your view as a risk
[15:24]and as a journalist, it was very difficult getting access
[15:26]to me surprisingly difficult getting access
[15:29]into this world.
[15:30]It was also a different experience.
[15:31]I had also done some recording for my last book.
[15:34]And in that case, I was drinking a lot of wine.
[15:37]And so I remember in particular listening
[15:38]to one audio recording of myself tasting through these wines
[15:41]during wine tasting.
[15:42]And it was a really horrific experience
[15:45]to listen to my self getting drunk.
[15:47]So as the audio goes on, I'm like,
[15:50]you're getting very loud.
[15:51]You're getting sorry words.
[15:53]Like, this is just, so I already am not wild
[15:56]about listening to my voice.
[15:58]Thank you to podcast listeners for listening to my voice.
[16:00]You know, I don't know.
[16:01]Any of us like hearing our voice recorded back to us,
[16:03]but that was a particularly cringe-worthy experience.
[16:06]Oh my gosh.
[16:07]And so what are you diving deep into now, if anything?
[16:10]Yeah, well, so I have the last few months
[16:13]to get the picture came out a couple months ago.
[16:15]And so I have been diving deep into the world
[16:17]of helping it find its way into the world.
[16:19]And so I've been on book tour,
[16:20]let's say we got to meet in LA for the festival of books.
[16:24]And now I'm beginning to think about,
[16:28]yes, what's next?
[16:29]So I have a couple of stories in the works.
[16:32]I'm a contributing writer at Theatlantic.
[16:34]So I write most regularly for them.
[16:36]So a few kind of things that are simmering,
[16:39]a couple pieces in the work still about the art world.
[16:42]And then beginning to open myself up
[16:45]to try and think about what might be the next adventure.
[16:48]I mean, I think these books for me emerge out of
[16:52]an intellectual curiosity, but also a kind of spiritual hunger.
[16:57]You know, I think that this book took five years
[16:59]and for something to sustain you that long,
[17:02]I think it requires more than just,
[17:05]like I said, a kind of intellectual curiosity
[17:07]and rather some kind of human need
[17:11]that I need to figure out.
[17:13]And both books for me grew out of these encounters
[17:17]with these incredibly passionate people
[17:19]who really knocked me off my access.
[17:21]They really made me wonder if everything I thought
[17:24]about how to live life was wrong.
[17:27]And that sent me into these journeys
[17:32]to try and uncover a different way of looking at line,
[17:35]a different way of looking at art,
[17:37]but also, like I said, a different way of living.
[17:39]And I do feel that the immersion in the art world
[17:43]has done that for me.
[17:44]I mean, my whole relationship with color, for example,
[17:47]is totally different.
[17:49]I mean, I've never thought of color as being a hedonistic
[17:51]experience, like fighting into like a fatty, juicy burger.
[17:55]And now it is.
[17:56]There is a building on the upper east side
[17:58]that is this, a glows this orange in the late afternoon sun
[18:03]that literally moved me to tears.
[18:04]And I am not a crier.
[18:06]And, you know, or that experience of being open
[18:10]to experiencing art everywhere.
[18:12]I went recently to the American Dream Mall in New Jersey,
[18:14]which if you haven't been, is, I mean,
[18:17]an absurd art installation in its own right.
[18:19]Like it has an indoor full beach.
[18:22]It has an indoor amusement park.
[18:24]It has ice skating rings.
[18:26]It has an aquarium.
[18:27]It has many other things that have a train.
[18:30]Anyway, and I remember going through the aquarium.
[18:32]And I was like, anyway, it's a total trip.
[18:33]And I was like, these are sculptures.
[18:34]And this is incredible.
[18:36]This is, and I think that there's something really exciting
[18:40]about that ability to keep seeing the world with new eyes
[18:47]that art helps us to accomplish and integrate into our lives.
[18:51]So you're obviously incredibly bright and articulate
[18:56]and passionate and all of this stuff.
[18:58]And now you've had great success at the book.
[19:00]Are you happy?
[19:02]What's that question?
[19:04]Well, thank you for the kind words.
[19:06]I am happy.
[19:07]I think I'm, I think I'm as happy as, you know,
[19:09]any of us can be.
[19:10]I don't know.
[19:11]I mean, I feel very, gosh, I love that question, which I've
[19:14]never been asked and interviewed.
[19:16]But no, I feel very fortunate and fulfilled.
[19:19]And I think, you know, look, I am someone for whom
[19:23]books have always been just a kind of North star.
[19:27]I mean, I am someone who like doesn't get really excited
[19:30]about seeing movies celebrities.
[19:31]But if I'm in a room with a writer, like I start sweating,
[19:34]you know, if there's a writer that I admire,
[19:35]like my heart starts pounding, like I'm trying to figure out
[19:38]what am I going to say to, you know, introduce myself this.
[19:41]Anyway, a man on the street in New York that I pass probably
[19:45]quarterly that I am convinced is gay to Lee's.
[19:48]And like one day I will work up the nerve to say hello to him.
[19:51]It probably isn't gay to Lee's.
[19:52]I'm just probably like, you know, thinking all elderly
[19:55]well-dressed men look the same.
[19:56]I don't know.
[19:57]But since got the picture came out, I have...
[20:00]been just so thrilled to hear from a lot of readers who have written in to share how
[20:06]much the book resonated with them and to share the sort of things that they see in the
[20:13]book that I see in the books that I love the most, you know, the way that the book continued,
[20:19]the journey of the book for them continued beyond the pages of the book, that makes
[20:23]sense, you know. And so that is a thrill. That does make me so happy. And, you know,
[20:28]I think at the same time, as a writer, I'm not going to lie, like writing is agony
[20:34]and ecstasy. Like in the moment when I'm writing it, I'm happy because there's nothing
[20:39]else I'd rather be doing. And I'm also miserable because it's hard and I'm wrestling
[20:44]with so much crippling doubt. And I'm like, you know, every piece, I feel like I sit down
[20:50]to the blank page. And I'm like, how, you know, how do I do that? And that's part of the excitement.
[20:55]is that every piece is different. Every piece is its own challenge. Every piece forces
[21:01]you to learn something new about the world and about your craft. So, you know, and then,
[21:07]you know, aside from that, I'm very lucky to be happy outside of my writing endeavors as
[21:11]well. You know, knock on wood. Awesome. Are you happy? I don't know what made me ask
[21:17]that. I was just like curious, you know, you're so, I don't know, like analytic and this
[21:23]is going well. And I was just like, I'm wondering like, you know, when the camera's not
[21:26]on, I don't know. It's not my business, but thank you for allowing me to ask. I'm
[21:32]happy. I am happy right now. But, you know, it's not to say I wasn't like crying yesterday.
[21:39]You know, I like things. Of course, you know, I know, try me in an hour. Let's see how
[21:43]it's going. Yeah, exactly. Well, I feel like you've, you know, already sort of imparted
[21:49]advice by the way that you're talking about your writing journey and process and, you
[21:54]know, implicit in that is, you know, to find something that is worth your time to research
[22:00]and dedicate and yourself and write about and all that. But what advice, what other advice
[22:05]would you have for aspiring authors and journalists? Yeah. Well, I think that, first of all,
[22:12]you know, writing is, you just have to do it, right? I mean, I think that there's, and
[22:17]that is the hardest part is actually doing the writing. I mean, I can't tell you the
[22:22]number of things I will do to avoid actually writing. I mean, my like, like the grout
[22:27]in the shower is never cleaner than when I'm on deadline. Like the, you know, the urgent
[22:37]chores that I will invent to get out of wrestling with the sentence is, you know, truly
[22:42]a testament to human creativity. I will say that, you know, I think that on the one hand,
[22:47]the industry is an absolute mess. On the other hand, there are more outlets, perhaps
[22:55]than ever to write for. It's not going to say that you're going to get the money you
[23:00]probably deserve for what you're writing. But nonetheless, I do think that when it comes
[23:05]to writing, it's important to build up, especially if you're journalists, I think it's important
[23:09]to build up a body of clips, right? Which means like articles that you have written. I think
[23:13]if you're an aspiring nonfiction author, I think that's also helpful. I do think that
[23:18]there is something really wonderful for all of its laws about the world of journalism and
[23:24]nonfiction, which is that any good editor can't say no to a great story idea. So if you
[23:31]have a fabulous idea and what is a fabulous idea may depend on the publication, like what
[23:37]is the right story for the Atlantic, may not be the right story for Budenwine or I don't
[23:44]know, Bloomberg Business Week. But I do think that that is kind of an incredible ticket
[23:50]in if you can find it. And then I think that, you know, the other piece, I think it's
[23:56]just practice. It really is just practice. And again, it doesn't get easier with practice.
[24:00]But nonetheless, parts of it get easier. And I think you become less precious. And I think
[24:05]I at least have found, and I learned a lot actually from artists. There was an artist
[24:08]I worked with, Julie Curtis, who really helped me to understand the process of creating
[24:16]and not be freaked out by it. You know, I think, you know, she, she just, she just sort
[24:22]of made peace with the fact that they're going to be these predictable challenges along
[24:26]the way. There is going to be this feeling of breakdown at some point with the work that
[24:29]will be a piece right at point where you think you can't move any further with it. And
[24:34]all hope is lost. And then you just move through it. And you just push through it. And
[24:38]you just figure it out. And I just, I love that because I do not have that equanimity
[24:43]about me. But I do think that just revising is the other thing. I do think maybe the difference
[24:47]between like good writers and great writers is just a difference between draft two and draft
[24:52]12. That's a great sound. I love that. Amazing. Bianca, thank you so much. I'm so impressed.
[24:59]I can't wait to read what you write next. And I'm now going to start following along
[25:03]on all your Atlantic pieces and doing more of a back deep dive. I don't know. Deep dive.
[25:08]I don't know. Anyway, the retrospective, it would say exactly exactly the retrospectives.
[25:14]Bianca Fusker, retrospectives. All right. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so
[25:21]much. Such a pleasure speaking with you. Have a great day. And hope we all stay happy.
[25:24]Have all of our listeners are happy too. I agree. Yes. You do. Take it. Thanks for listening.
[25:33]to Mom. Don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow
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