A Zibby's Most Anticipated! Nicholas Sparks, COUNTING MIRACLES
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[0:43]Nicholas Sparks is back on the podcast for, I don't know, his third or fourth time. He's so prolific.
[0:50]This time, he's talking about his latest book, Counting Miracles, a novel.
[0:54]Nicholas Sparks is the author of 23 books, all of which have been New York Times bestsellers.
[0:59]His books have been published across more than 50 languages, with over 150 million copies sold worldwide, and 11 have been adapted into films.
[1:06]He is also the founder of the Nicholas Sparks Foundation and nonprofit committed to improving cultural and international understanding through global education experiences.
[1:14]He lives in North Carolina.
[1:16]Welcome, Nicholas. Thank you so much for coming back on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Counting Miracles.
[1:22]Thank you.
[1:23]I'm thrilled to be here. Good to see you again.
[1:26]Good to see you. So I know from our last couple podcasts, every time you always say, okay, so did you read this book?
[1:32]Which is good. I tried to read every book, but yes, I want you to know from the answer.
[1:37]I read this book, cover to cover, and it was so powerful and upsetting at times and wow, it was like a hold-your-heart type of finish to the book and all that.
[1:48]So yes, thank you so much for the experience.
[1:51]Well, you are welcome and I appreciate the, I appreciate the, we appreciate the interview.
[1:56]Why don't you tell listeners what this book is about?
[1:59]Oh, it's a typical Nicholas Sparks, right? There's some romantic elements in theirs,
[2:07]a little bit of mystery, a little bit of life, some major themes of love and loss.
[2:12]But essentially, it's about, it's at North Carolina. That's another thing.
[2:16]I'm such a bad guy named Tanner. He's former military. He's been working overseas for USAID,
[2:23]previous to his appearance in the novel, and he was, he do, you know, we kind of goes on a
[2:29]journey of healing. A lot of his friends that he knew in the military committed suicide.
[2:35]Not really, he's very unsettled in life, doesn't know where he belongs. His mom says, hey,
[2:40]you know, there's something you've always wanted to know. And I think you might find the answer in Ashboro.
[2:45]So he goes to Ashboro, meets a physician, Caitlin. She's a divorced mother, raising a couple of
[2:52]great kids. And of course, it's one of my books. So we can kind of guess what happens or
[2:58]might or might not happen from there. And you've got a third character and he plays into the story
[3:05]as well. He's an older guy lives near the doctor, walking distance. He's helping the doctors,
[3:11]young son learn how to whittle. He discovers there's a white deer in the woods nearby and that
[3:17]there might be oachers after this white deer. And he thinks it's his duty to save this white deer.
[3:26]And of course, these stories eventually collide into an ending that I hope people don't see coming.
[3:34]I did not see it coming. And actually at some point, I was like, why are these storylines not making
[3:40]sense together yet? Like, how are these going to overlap? I don't get it. So, you know,
[3:45]that's what you're supposed to do. That's what I'm supposed to do. Yes,
[3:47]you know, turning the pages, right? And of course, another element of doing that is you have
[3:52]to make both stories relatively interesting and page turning in and of themselves until
[3:58]the A story, Tanner and Caitlin combines with the B story, Jasper.
[4:03]So when you talk about, okay, this is one of my books. And so you know, you're going to get this,
[4:08]and you know, you're going to get that. Do you ever feel like I just don't want to do these
[4:11]types of books anymore? Like, do you ever feel like do I have to, you know, do you feel reluctant
[4:16]at all? Are you just joyful? No, well, I'm not joyful. Writing is easy. Writing well is hard
[4:23]and writing what I've write is even harder than that. You know, it takes a lot of effort,
[4:27]a lot of missteps, a lot of editing to before you finally get to the novel that's in your hands.
[4:33]So it can be frustrating at times. But the nice thing about working in the genre and which I work
[4:38]is you're allowed to explore and utilize elements of other genres, whether it's historic fiction
[4:47]or the, or hope more, the supernatural or thrillers or danger or adventure or mystery.
[4:54]And you can pull those best elements from other genres and incorporate them into, I guess,
[5:00]the ove in which I work. And that's what I've done here. There's a few major themes in this
[5:06]novel. I don't know which one is, which one is primary. It's a study of grief. It's a study of
[5:14]finding a way forward moving on. It's of course, it's a story of love. And then you've got some,
[5:20]it was inspired in part by the book of Job from the Bible as well. So you got a lot of big
[5:25]things going on in addition to the romantic element. And that's why the, the types of novels
[5:31]that I write remain a challenge because every time I'm sitting down to write a new novel,
[5:36]it feels like I'm reinventing the wheel because I have to learn how to do all of these other
[5:41]elements in the best way possible. If I intend to incorporate them into my novel, the benefit for
[5:48]the reader is they get a different story every time, even though they think they might know what's
[5:53]coming. And certainly you can predict, hey, North Carolina, you can predict there's a romantic
[5:58]element. But in no way, shape or form is, let's say, counting miracles similar to a walk to a member
[6:05]or safe haven or message in a bottle or even the notebook. It's true. I feel like in this book,
[6:11]in particular, there was so much about the Bible and Jasper really relies on that and even from
[6:17]his backstory where they did rely on it. You know, his marriage lost his faith as the story opens,
[6:24]right? Right. Well, all of the different excerpts from the Bible, turning the other cheek literally
[6:30]at one point in his life and showing the power of really internalizing that message and just how many
[6:38]and how it deepened his relationship with his own father at times when his dad would really
[6:44]rely on those messages as well. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Some people I've been asked,
[6:49]you know, in the interviews, this is a Christian book. And I say no, I say, however, one of the
[6:55]characters in the novel is Christian. And he was a man of faith who's lost his faith. And we see where
[7:04]and we understand why once we know his full story and we see where he is. And to me, you know,
[7:11]adding those elements, of course, really just helped to describe who Jasper was. But in no
[7:17]way, when I say, hey, this is a Christian book, you know, I mean, you know, as I just said, it was
[7:22]inspired by the book of Joe, which by the way, is also in the Torah. So I don't, you know,
[7:28]it's just the story from the Bible like Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. And it was intrinsic
[7:35]to Jasper's character, I thought. Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest it was a Christian book.
[7:40]What does that even mean really? Like, is it a this or that, you know, it's a great book. It's a book
[7:45]where you're immersed in the characters. And this is one person's backstory. So I don't know.
[7:50]It wasn't you. It was more you didn't. I've just been asked that, you know, I've been
[7:53]gearing up for the year or so. Okay. I've answered a few questions about the novel to the point.
[8:00]Got it. Okay. All right. Gotcha. There were a lot of things with Jasper also
[8:07]with his health and psoriasis. And I don't know how much to say even about what is plaguing him.
[8:14]But there was a lot of medical stuff. And of course, Caitlin is a doctor. And Jasper is
[8:21]the consummate patient, you know, throughout. Tell me a little bit more about that element
[8:26]and the caretaking and how much of a deep dive you had to do and various things to portray that
[8:33]accurately. Oh, sure. Well, certainly I add elements of medical infirment at times to my novels
[8:39]because I think it's something that many readers will relate to. If not, the vast majority.
[8:44]I mean, I think if you've gone through life and you've never known someone who's sick or
[8:49]had anything go wrong with them, you're pretty rare. And the good job I have yet to meet one in my own
[8:54]life. We are humans. Human life is hard, right? And so I think it adds an element of realism to
[9:02]the novel and how one copes with those things. But, you know, Jasper's had a rough goal of things.
[9:07]There's no question about it. You know, he's an injury. And you learn it fairly early on,
[9:15]but he was in a fire, so he's skin is burned. And then the parts that won't burn,
[9:20]weren't burned. He's got psoriasis. And I've met people with psoriasis, really bad cases that
[9:25]just can't be controlled. And, you know, it's got to be got to be very challenging to go through
[9:33]a world that in which appearance, you know, is many people's very first impression of you.
[9:40]And, you know, Jasper knows this and he's old and he's half burned and half covered in psoriasis.
[9:46]You know, as I put it in the novel, he kind of misses the COVID days when everyone was
[9:52]wearing a mask, right? But even now he knows he wears his bandana because, as he phrases it,
[9:58]now we can scare kids.
[10:00]on Halloween, even without a disguise or a costume. And you learn that fairly early on,
[10:06]what we don't always why. Nor do we know how it affects him. Who he is at present because of this.
[10:13]For him, you get the scent. He knows it, but he doesn't really think about it that much,
[10:19]unless he's in the presence of someone else.
[10:22]So the overall message, I think, is quite hopeful, right? We can get through anything. We can
[10:27]reinvent ourselves. We can open ourselves up to emotions that we thought were totally closed
[10:33]off to us. But there is definitely a darkness to the book, right? There is, and part of it is
[10:39]overcoming that darkness, but to overcome it, you sort of have to read your way through it and
[10:43]experience it along with them. Was that hard to write for you and tell me more about that? I mean,
[10:50]you could have tempered it a little bit, but it was like, you know, a lot.
[10:55]There's an old saying, right? The only way out is throat. And that's really an exploration of
[11:00]all three characters. They all have their wounds from their past, so to speak. And, you know,
[11:07]either work through it. You work through it and make the best of things. You can work through it or
[11:15]not. The world can be a gloomy place. Or, you know, you can try to find a way to end your own
[11:22]life, I suppose. These are kind of your three options in the end. Either accepted or you're
[11:28]bitter about it. And these are characters who are struggling with that very universal dilemma
[11:35]of what do I do when things are really, really hard? You know, Tanner, so many of his friends
[11:41]that he knew, they put his suicide. So he wonders, was there anything I could have done to save them?
[11:47]Should I have been more available? Right? You get a sense of this. But he was off,
[11:52]you know, he's an unsettled man. He's never around. He was overseas. He was working for USAID,
[11:58]you know, helping vaccinate, you know, guarding people who vaccinated the kids, things like that.
[12:03]He, yeah, so he's got that. You have Caitlyn who comes off a divorce, nothing that she
[12:09]expected in her life. She's very clear. It's a line in the novel. Hey, I had this plan for my life.
[12:15]And guess what, right? Plans don't always work out. And so she struggles with that. And
[12:21]where is she? What does I'm here now? I'm okay. I think I could be a little happier. But what
[12:28]does that mean? That to me strikes me as a very universal feeling. And then of course you have Jasper
[12:33]and he's more closer to the end of his life. So he spends a little bit more time living in the short
[12:38]term. Hey, I've got something to do this week. There's a deer in the forest and a white deer and I
[12:44]don't want the poachers to get it. But a lot of his time is spent looking back on the nature of his
[12:50]life and the things that have happened to him. And again, that that strikes me as a fairly
[12:54]universal experience. I feel like there's also with the deer and the forest, the woods and nature.
[13:00]I feel like it's also in part an allegory, right? It's about like, especially the younger generation
[13:07]and how there is this group of teenagers who want to do evil and the older guard who trying,
[13:13]who are trying to protect our world. And how do we reconcile these two groups? And what do we do with
[13:18]that information? Sure. It's tough. He's a little old man. As a general rule, you get the sense of
[13:26]Tanner's pretty handy and he could probably handle himself in a bad situation. But you don't get
[13:32]that impression of Jasper. He probably gets in a little bit over his head. And you look back on
[13:40]his plans to save the deer. They're pretty well thought out. But it's a lot of work for an old person,
[13:45]right? Forests is a big place. Deer can go a lot of places. And yet he wants to save that white
[13:53]deer. It's a memory from his father. But also he thinks it's a message of some sort, right? Because
[13:58]white deer in various mythologies, their messages from the other side, their messages from those we've
[14:04]lost, and depends on which particular mythology we're talking about. And of course, some of those
[14:10]are laid out in the novel in a very efficient way. Don't worry. I tried to do things
[14:17]efficiently. And you also got in the dog owner relationship and dog is advocate. And I just saw
[14:26]something on tech talk or something about a dog who chased this ambulance for like 40 miles.
[14:31]course I was telling the story. My husband's like, the dog ran 40 miles. And I was like, okay,
[14:34]maybe it wasn't 40 miles. But really far chasing the ambulance when his owner was inside. And
[14:39]the lengths that dogs will go to protect those. Sure. You know, I have dogs that had dogs most of my
[14:46]life. I have a dog in the office right now laying right over there. And yeah. And so yeah. And then
[14:54]Arlo, he was kind of modeled after my son's dog who spends a lot of time at the house here. And
[15:00]just really kind of likes to lay a lot, likes his treats. And don't bother teaching me any new
[15:07]tricks. And yet, you know, there is a real bond between Jasper and Arlo because they're really
[15:15]all each other have. And that's all they've been the companion to each other pretty much the soul
[15:22]command companion to each other for over a decade. And so Arlo, Arlo comes through in the end.
[15:29]Let's just let's just say. I was watching my kids at like an assembly and they gave the parents
[15:34]the live stream. And it turns out the principal of their whole school, which is she's a new
[15:38]principal this year. That's the name of her dog, too. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is the dog in my
[15:42]buck crazy. Anyway, you know, I like putting dogs and books. And I've done that before,
[15:50]whether it's the guardian or the lucky one, you know, I get told I need to put a cat in one of my
[15:57]books. And I will. I'll put a really personable cat, you know, to be frank, I'm allergic to cats.
[16:02]So I have lots of experience with cats. I mean, the challenge of doing a cat is to or any
[16:08]any relationship like that is to make it feel very honest and real for the reader. And I think
[16:14]that the relationship between Arlo and Jasper strikes people is real. And definitely. So I have to
[16:20]ask, did you invest in Apple at the very beginning? Yeah, I did. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I'm
[16:27]like, this is too specific and anecdote. This must be real. Yeah, it's done well for me.
[16:34]Oh my gosh, that is so awesome. Yeah, I got lucky. Then I got lazy. Then I got lucky again.
[16:40]Believe it. That was me. That's you want to know how to invest. That was it. Right there. That's
[16:45]all. You can go to all the bookstores and you want that. That's the whole secret right there.
[16:51]Yeah, forget the books. Forget the whole empire here.
[16:54]That's awesome. I love that. And what is going on? How excited are you for the notebook and the
[17:01]musical and you have all these balls in the air? How is that going? Oh, it's a lot. Some of my
[17:07]other projects are in various stages of film development, either looking for a director. I can't
[17:11]really talk about them, looking for a director on one, looking to rewrite the script on another,
[17:19]getting close to announcing one, working on another one secretly. Nobody knows about what you do now,
[17:26]but I can't really say much about that one. It's a busy life, right? You know, you tour and you
[17:31]write and you do these other projects. And it's been very blessed. In the end, I just
[17:40]I'm always thrilled that I have a new story and that another idea has come to me. There's
[17:47]writers who read about them and they say, I've got notebooks of ideas or I keep a notebook by
[17:54]the side of the bed in case something, you know, some idea comes to me in the middle of the night
[17:59]and it wakes me up. And I'm like, neither of these things have ever happened to me ever. I'm waiting
[18:05]for that moment, you know, where something just comes to me like that. It doesn't work like that for me.
[18:11]So whenever I finish a novel, I pretty much close and I say, well, that's it. I've done every good
[18:17]idea out there. There's going to be nothing else. I said that after the notebook, by the way. And
[18:23]I said, that's it. I mean, how on earth can I come up with another story? And, you know, somehow
[18:28]little by little another idea comes. So yeah, it's it's fun to have a lot of balls in the air.
[18:35]But I but because it always feels pretty rare and special to me as I just said, you know,
[18:43]it's a lot of fun to to take a moment every now and then and really just be thankful for what's
[18:49]going on. How do you feel about book marketing? Because I think a lot of new authors or people who
[18:59]are out there sort of hustling and just trying to make a name for themselves feel like, well,
[19:04]if only I were like Nicholas Sparks or somebody who could sort of rest on his laurels and not have
[19:09]to do that. But that is not what I have found with people like you and other, like, I feel like
[19:13]everybody is still out there touring and doing podcasts and the whole thing. Like does it ever end? And
[19:18]do you enjoy it? Well, I enjoy, I don't mind going out on tour. I find going out on tour easier than
[19:25]writing. So we'll say that. Yeah, writing is tough. And it's really nice for me to get a chance
[19:32]to meet the readers. And I learned from them what books they liked in the past, which ones are
[19:37]their favorite, what themes they liked. And because you only have a very short period of time when
[19:42]I'm signing a book or or taking a photo with someone. But, you know, I come out of there and say,
[19:48]you know, they were right. It's been a long time since I've had a book with a teenage girl. Or,
[19:54]you know what? I really should do something that's reminiscent of a mystery like I had in a
[20:00]in the road. So, you know, I garner information and it goes somewhere into the wheelhouse
[20:05]and then I'm sure it eventually comes out, right? And, uh, or comes out in little parts,
[20:11]maybe not entire books or themes, but certainly in various elements. So,
[20:16]meeting people going out on tour, it's a great way to, to find out what's working, what isn't
[20:21]working, what people might want, you know, for instance, what, what could be, should I put
[20:27]more social media into my novels or not, right? That's a question. A lot of, a lot of people do,
[20:34]you know, the problem with that is that something sometimes things, it can date a book very quickly,
[20:41]like for instance, if you read a book that talks about my space, you know, they're like,
[20:46]oh my gosh, remember that? You know, it dates and it puts that into a specific year and I tried to
[20:52]write stories that feel as if they could be happening anytime. So, you know, when it comes to,
[20:57]this is off the question, but technology and I tried to say, well, I do think people will have
[21:02]cell phones for a while. So, we'll do that. They'll probably keep having email. I think texting
[21:07]is here to stay as for specifics in social media, not so much. But these are the kinds of things
[21:14]you learn from, you go out on tour and you talk to people because for instance, a lot of people
[21:20]these days meet via social media, whether it's dating apps or this app or this and that,
[21:26]should I perhaps do something with that or not? But it gives me something to think about.
[21:32]Well, at least I think GPS is here to stay and that is one thing that you did put in this book.
[21:37]And if that goes away, I am just like, you know, I'm not going to move it ever again. I'm not
[21:43]going to write, but it's funny, right? Jasper goes in. We don't sell maps here. Yeah, I know. He went to
[21:48]to like five, you know, gas station. Most people just use their phones. First thing goes to school,
[21:56]they won't let him in. He's like, the world is changed from what it was, what it used to be.
[22:02]And of course, that's an example. I tried to tell my kids that they don't really care when
[22:06]we're driving sometimes. I'm like, you guys, you know, I used to have this like book of maps
[22:10]called the Thomas Guide in LA and I had to like pull over and like flip to a different page.
[22:14]And then I had these maps where you had to like unfold it. And they were like, how did you get
[22:18]anywhere? I'm like, you called people for directions and they just dictated them. They're like,
[22:22]what? Oh, yeah. Oh, I remember those days. I remember dialing phones. I remember,
[22:29]I remember, I don't know. It was probably about five years ago. I was walking with the kids in
[22:35]airport. They were just transfixed because they saw phone books. They'd never seen one except
[22:41]in a movie. I'm like, oh my gosh, right? And they're almost the thing of the past now.
[22:47]Yeah, crazy. Well, thinking is for for GPS. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[22:55]It's always the same, right? You got to read a lot. You have to read a lot. You have to read
[23:00]a lot in a variety of genres. And that's what I think people don't always necessarily understand.
[23:05]Like let's say you want to write something like me. Then I'm not saying that you should.
[23:11]But whatever you're going to do, you can't just read what I've written. You kind of have to read
[23:17]what I've read as well. Because as I said, if you're going to do, if Jasper's going to have
[23:26]an element of faith, well, certainly I've read some faith books. If I do save haven and there's
[23:32]a supernatural element, well, you probably should have read some more or go stories along the way.
[23:38]If you're going to add an element of danger, well, you probably should read some thrillers
[23:43]along the way too. So because I pull from all of these different elements or areas and
[23:49]learn something from most books that I read whether they work or whether they don't work or whether
[23:54]one part, one section works well or one doesn't. You learn what to do and what not to do. So
[24:00]you have to read a lot. And of course, you have to eventually sit down and start putting your
[24:06]thoughts on paper. I think another good idea is to know what you're writing even before you begin.
[24:13]What is it? Is it a thriller? Is it a romance novel? Is it what is it a coming of age novel?
[24:20]I think because each of those genres have different elements, but there's some common elements
[24:29]to every common, every coming of age story, for instance, for instance, in a coming of age story,
[24:35]voice tends to be incredibly important, even more important often than the actions of the characters.
[24:43]It's voice and how they sound. So you read a walk, remember, and it's a sweet little love story,
[24:49]but a big chunk of that is really about its land and voice as else the story. That's what makes
[24:56]that that particular novel impactful. So you got to read and then you got to write and you got to
[25:01]know what you want to write. And there you go. That's about it. I'm more in the coming of middle-aged
[25:07]genre at the moment. Right. Right. Right. The the Caitlin's of the world. Yeah, exactly. Caitlin was
[25:14]right right up my alley there. By the way, there was one author who I talked to recently and now I
[25:19]can't remember who it was, but they were talking about a success story and how a friend of theirs
[25:24]had this friend who slept on the couch and, you know, like crashed on the couch for years and said
[25:29]he was always trying to write this book and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, turns out it
[25:33]was you. It was me. Yeah, you know, were you on someone, you must have been on someone's couch at some
[25:40]point saying you were going to my book. Oh, yeah, that's probably back in college and I was like,
[25:45]yeah, you know, I'm going to write one day and I've written a novel when I was 19 and another one
[25:50]at 22. There's a difference, you know, you've full of some hubris back then and you think anything
[25:55]is possible. At the same time, I wasn't sure I could ever write well enough to be an author
[26:02]as my soul occupation. You know, I figured I might write on the side and we'll see what happens
[26:08]with that. I've been fortunate in that my first novel did fairly well and I've been able to just
[26:14]do this and only this. Well, I like, I like the double meaning of your soul occupation.
[26:20]Yeah, my soul occupation. Well, when I wrote the notebook, I was selling pharmaceuticals and I
[26:25]think that's the case of most people who write their first novel. Most of them, well, you know,
[26:29]you still have bills to pay and you have to do that. And if it's important to you, you'll find
[26:34]the time to create your own story. Amazing. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for this very,
[26:41]very powerful book and thank you will stick with me and definitely really made me feel and
[26:47]thank which of course is what a great book does. So congratulations. Thank you very much. Have a wonderful day.
[26:53]You too. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[26:59]If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social at Civi Owens and at Civi Readers.