Alice Hoffman, WHEN WE FLEW AWAY: A Novel of Anne Frank Before the Diary
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[0:42]Alice Hoffman is the author of When We flew away a novel of Anne Frank before the diary.
[0:49]Alice is a repeat guest on this podcast and I'm delighted to have her back.
[0:53]Alice is the highly acclaimed author of over 30 novels for readers of all ages, including The Dev Keepers,
[0:59]the world that we knew, which was the winner of the Dayton Literary Peace Prize,
[1:03]the marriage of opposites, practical magic, incantation, the foretelling, and most recently the invisible hour.
[1:11]Her previous novels for Scholastic Press are Aqua Marine, which was made into a major motion picture,
[1:17]Indigo, Green Witch, and Green Angel, which publishers weekly in a star review called Akingly Lovely.
[1:24]She lives outside of Boston.
[1:26]Welcome, Alice. Thanks so much for coming back on Monster Time to read books.
[1:30]So excited to discuss When We flew away a novel of Anne Frank before the diary.
[1:35]Oh my gosh, so moving, so good.
[1:37]I really love this.
[1:38]I learned so many things.
[1:39]I didn't know about Anne Frank and her family.
[1:42]Really amazing.
[1:43]Congrats.
[1:44]What inspired this book?
[1:46]Thank you so much, Zibi.
[1:47]It's so nice to see you again.
[1:49]It's been a while.
[1:50]You know, really, Anne Frank was a huge inspiration for me to become a writer.
[1:56]Anne has been since the time I'm 12, but really what happened was Scholastic came to me.
[2:01]And it was their idea to do a book before the diary, because their feeling was that Anne was being forgotten.
[2:09]And that not that many people were reading about her, not as many people were reading the diary, which I think was true.
[2:15]And so that the goal we had together was that after somebody finished reading this book,
[2:21]whether they were a child or an adult, they would want to then go and read the diary.
[2:26]Interesting.
[2:27]And gosh.
[2:29]So then, how much of this was fictionalized?
[2:31]How much did you have to do research?
[2:34]I mean, obviously, a lot of it must have been true.
[2:35]All of the, you know, backstory with the US and all that.
[2:39]What was your approach?
[2:41]Well, all of the facts, I mean, this is like when you write a historical novel,
[2:45]you kind of writing a mystery because you have the facts and you want all the facts to be right on 100%.
[2:51]You don't want to make up anything that's actually factual.
[2:53]But you can't really know what conversations people had or what their inner thoughts were,
[2:58]what their real relationships were with certain people.
[3:01]And there's a lot about sisterhood, about mothers and daughters.
[3:05]So that conversations and thoughts, you know, I had to invent some of them.
[3:11]So, you know, that is kind of what I've done before when writing historical novels.
[3:15]So I just tried to say as true to the story as possible.
[3:19]And the other thing that was really difficult that I didn't imagine when I quickly said,
[3:24]yes, what that thinking was that, you know, Anne's voice is like,
[3:28]I feel is the best person narration in literature.
[3:32]And so I didn't feel like I could write a first person story.
[3:36]So I had to figure out a way to get inside of her while, you know,
[3:41]me also maintaining a certain distance from her.
[3:44]Interesting.
[3:45]Wow. The events of the days before and all of the hopes and dreams.
[3:52]And as you said, the sibling relationships and mother, daughter relationships,
[3:56]how did you like, I know we have learned all of us so much from reading the diary.
[4:01]And I feel like I know her and I know her family and all of that.
[4:05]But even things like how strict her mom was or why her mom was strict.
[4:09]Or so some of the motivations, not strict, but more, you know,
[4:13]really wanting her to succeed.
[4:14]Some of the motivations, which I feel like you laid out really clearly in the book.
[4:18]Did you imagine, I mean, I know these are silly questions.
[4:21]But no, no, they were really important.
[4:24]That's exactly what was important to me in writing it because, you know,
[4:27]yes, I did research and I worked a lot with the Anne Frank house and the,
[4:30]the historians there were great and extremely helpful,
[4:33]but things like, you know, the emotional connections between people.
[4:36]I could only guess that from what other people said and, and from writings,
[4:42]from Anne's writings and from what other people said.
[4:44]And so what I gathered and what people seemed to believe is that, you know,
[4:47]her sister was kind of the perfect, the perfect girl.
[4:51]You know, she was beautiful and she was smart and she, you know,
[4:55]stuck by the rules and she did as she was told and Anne was more difficult
[4:59]and had more of kind of like more difficulties with her mother who wanted her to behave.
[5:05]And that wasn't who Anne was.
[5:07]she was creative and she was bossy and she was a lot of things that made me
[5:13]love her even more as researching her.
[5:16]Wow.
[5:16]It's almost, I started wondering a little bit like I wonder if Anne actually had ADHD or something.
[5:23]You know, it's possible.
[5:24]You know, you just never know about historical figures.
[5:27]But one of the things that happened to me was when I read it for the first time
[5:31]when I was 12, really felt what you had said before was that I knew her.
[5:37]I think that happens with really great books is that it's not just that you feel like you know
[5:42]the other person, but you also feel like some has she knows you having such
[5:47]similar feelings and thoughts.
[5:48]And yes, I felt about the diary and I felt this connection and it made me feel
[5:53]like I could be a writer, which is something that I never imagined before.
[5:58]So do you remember like where you were when you read the book the first time?
[6:02]I don't remember where I was, but I'm sure I was at home, you know,
[6:05]in my mother's house.
[6:06]And I believe that I bought it at a book fair in a scholastic book fair.
[6:10]And I just, you know, I didn't know very much about history.
[6:14]I didn't know very much about World War II.
[6:16]Even though my father had served in World War II, he never spoke about it.
[6:19]It seemed like it was very far away, but it really wasn't from the time
[6:23]that I read it to the ending of World War II and from the Holocaust.
[6:26]So it was just a huge entree into kind of another person's life.
[6:31]And I think that's the thing about reading is that it gives you such compassion
[6:35]for other people.
[6:36]I think that's what scares people when they want to ban books is that when
[6:41]you're a reader, you just have more compassion.
[6:43]And you can imagine what it's like to live somebody else's life.
[6:47]Yeah.
[6:48]And when you told the story, she was younger than I remembered her.
[6:52]Like I feel like I remember her more as like 12, 13.
[6:56]And yet she, and I'm thinking like I have a son now who's nine.
[7:01]And a daughter who's 11.
[7:02]And I'm just like, oh my gosh, the ages seem different theoretically.
[7:08]And it's different.
[7:09]Well, this is before.
[7:10]So it starts when she's about nine years old.
[7:12]Yeah, yeah, really.
[7:13]That is so young.
[7:15]And one of the things when I, when I first started writing the book,
[7:18]my niece now is 14, but when I first started, she was about 11 and a half.
[7:22]And she lived in Austria and she'd never heard of Anne Frank.
[7:25]And I thought, Oh, so like, I'm writing this book for you.
[7:29]You know, and she's like, I don't think study that until later.
[7:31]But I just thought like, how could she not know?
[7:33]Yeah.
[7:34]You know, like we can't let Anne disappear.
[7:36]And the further we get from the Holocaust, the fewer people, the fewer survivors
[7:40]there are, the easier it is to forget that story.
[7:43]And when you go to the Anne Frank has, I'm sure you've been there.
[7:46]It's just an incredible experience.
[7:49]And I think it's, you know, one of them, I think it is the number one place.
[7:53]The visitor's place for people who are coming from outside of the Netherlands.
[7:57]And it's just such an experience and such an emotional experience to go there.
[8:04]And I remember going there, you know, years and years and years ago,
[8:06]it's changed and it's become more of a museum list of their house.
[8:10]And it's just fascinating place to go.
[8:13]I really think it also keeps the memory alive about what can happen.
[8:18]So easily and so quickly.
[8:19]And just how like type quarters it really was for so many people.
[8:26]I mean, I've been twice.
[8:27]I went once in high school.
[8:29]And then again, very recently and brought my own kids back, which was really moving.
[8:34]And I was, I started as Anne Frank in the diary of Anne Frank and my can't play.
[8:38]I'll have you know.
[8:38]Yes.
[8:39]Okay.
[8:39]Yeah.
[8:40]Yep.
[8:40]It was my shining moment.
[8:41]I was very proud to be cast.
[8:43]But I really felt and always have felt like so much in common with like the young
[8:48]girls writing her feelings down and all of that.
[8:52]Like, I mean, I know all of us writers probably feel the same thing.
[8:56]Like this could easily be us and what it must have been.
[8:59]And even her first crush and you know, just all of it.
[9:02]And I think in your book, too, learning about what's coming, what came before
[9:07]and just the carefree nature and how fast it can all change, which is something
[9:11]that I feel like we're all reeling from right now.
[9:14]Just our what where are we in the history of what's happening now?
[9:19]Are we at the beginning?
[9:20]You don't really know to each the end of it.
[9:22]Yeah.
[9:23]It's because one of the most emotional experiences for me was when I went to Amsterdam,
[9:28]I went to her, the family's apartment before they moved into the annex or the attic.
[9:33]And now it's a place where they let writers stay writers who can't write in their
[9:36]own countries.
[9:37]And they asked me if I wanted to stay, but I felt too emotional to stay there.
[9:42]And he's spending a few hours there because it just felt like home, you know, like someone's
[9:48]home.
[9:49]It's a really nice neighborhood.
[9:50]And the bookstore where she bought the diaries still exists and their kids running all over
[9:55]and you kind of are transported to that time where everything seems.
[10:00]normal, before the Nazis arrived. And it was a very emotional experience to be there.
[10:07]And I took out our school. I also went to our school. It still went to a Montessori school. And
[10:13]you know, the same tree was in the yard. Her desk was still there. And it just makes you feel
[10:20]closer to it. Well, I feel like that's the magic of telling one story is so much more powerful
[10:28]than thinking like, oh, millions of Jews were killed. It's like, you see that you're so
[10:34]into this. And you're like, oh, like, this is really it. This is what was lost time.
[10:40]You were so, I'd say because it makes it so personal. And I met with a researcher when I was there
[10:46]who researched diaries and and also hidden hidden people. There's so many people who were hidden
[10:52]who wrote diaries. And it wasn't, you know, just one person, but somehow knowing this one person
[10:59]so well makes you kind of feel for everybody who was in that circumstance. Yeah. My gosh.
[11:06]What do you feel like after this whole deep dive? What do you feel that you didn't feel before
[11:13]either about Anne or about resilience or, you know, times in history or what we should not forget
[11:20]or any of that? Like, where do you feel like you are now versus before you started the project?
[11:25]Well, I feel like, you know, the idea of somebody who could still have hope and faith and
[11:30]still think that people are good still be so positive still be a dreamer. I mean, part of that,
[11:35]it was her age. And that's kind of how when we're young, we can feel those things. And it's kind of
[11:41]good to remember those things as we get older because it's so easy to become cynical and
[11:47]and to feel like there is no hope. And so I think that was that was a big part of it for me
[11:54]in rereading everything. I was so honestly taken aback when you said not take, I mean,
[11:59]just so surprised when you said that Scholastic was worried that people were forgetting the diary.
[12:03]I almost like didn't even have anything to say. I was like, what is that even possible?
[12:08]Like, is this not in the common parlance? Like, in my community, I feel like it is, you know,
[12:14]but in the larger scale, like, is it has it really been fading? And how sad is that? I mean,
[12:19]that is devastating to me. Yeah, I think it's just really important to remember her and to
[12:24]remember everything that happened. So that was one of the reasons I, you know, immediately wanted
[12:29]to write the book. But I also wanted to write it and I didn't even think about it or think about
[12:32]all the work or think about anything. I just felt like this is the book that my grandmother would
[12:36]have wanted me to write. And I just feel like if I don't write anything else, then I did this
[12:42]for her. Because I just think it would have really mattered for her to have that story out there.
[12:47]So what was your family's story? My family were Russian and, you know, my grandmother told me
[12:55]that her life, but it just sounded like a fairytale. I couldn't believe that how she had lived,
[12:59]you know, that, you know, being afraid of wolves in the morning when she had to go down to the
[13:03]river to get water. And I just feel like, you know, her story is just kind of an immigrant story.
[13:08]And I just think this is something she would have wanted me to do.
[13:12]It's really meaningful and really good, too. I mean, in terms of writing and creating narrative
[13:18]and tension and just all the craft, crafty stuff, what are some tools of the trade that you feel
[13:24]like you rely on a lot or that you make sure to do when you're writing. I mean, you're such
[13:28]an accomplished author. Like, what is it, what is it you do to get your, is it the outlining? Is
[13:35]character development? Like, what is the secret sauce? You know, Zibi, to be honest,
[13:40]I block it all out after we're kind of like childbirth. You know, like, if you remembered what
[13:45]it was like, you'd never do it again. Is that feeling? I do make a lot of outlines. I do a lot of
[13:51]different drafts. I worked with a great editors. And that was really helpful. But I realized when I
[13:56]was writing this particular story that for me, it was so horrible and so upsetting that the
[14:04]only way I could really tell it was to tell it is if it were fairytale. Because I always felt
[14:10]growing up that fairytales allow you to see into the darkness and the light both in a way that
[14:17]realistic stories don't. And so I felt like I had to do both, give the facts, tell what really
[14:23]happened, but also tell it is if it were a fairytale so that we would understand like two sisters
[14:28]who were lost in the woods. And that that would resonate for people as they were reading it.
[14:33]And you know, for younger, I do feel like it's for everybody, like every age. But for younger readers,
[14:38]I didn't want to put so much history in that it would turn them off. So I realized a way where I could
[14:46]say everything that was happening in kind of a condensed form so that it wouldn't stop them from
[14:52]reading the story as a story. I was sort of surprised when Anne's dad was talking about how safe he
[15:00]felt in the Netherlands and that when things started to happen, how he said, oh no, well, people will
[15:04]know that this is wrong. This is against the rules and someone will come in and tell Germany they
[15:09]can't do this. Like this is not what they're supposed to do. So it couldn't possibly get worse.
[15:13]And it's just that it's like suspension of disbelief or something that you feel like
[15:18]people will do the right thing and what if they don't? Yeah, I know. He really did believe
[15:22]people would do the right thing. And you know, one of the things, this is just like a quirk of like
[15:28]circumstance. But you know, I rent this little tiny place to write in and I'm there right now.
[15:34]And it turned out that the person who owned the house was from the Strauss family.
[15:39]And I thought it was very friendly with that family and introduced me to the woman who ran
[15:46]historical family archives. It was very helpful to me also. That just seemed like another
[15:51]reason like I'm supposed to do this because what are the odds of that happening? Pretty slim,
[15:56]so that's really lucky. Oh my gosh. And what other projects are you working on if anything in the
[16:03]midst of all of this? Do you have more adult things coming or what's your what's on your dance card?
[16:10]I do. I'm working on a novel. I tend not to talk exactly about it novels because you know,
[16:15]you never know if that's going to be the novel. As you know, until you're at the end,
[16:19]I mean, maybe you're going to throw it out. I last year or last year I was in a
[16:24]master's program at the Divinity School at Harvard. So I relearned to have a writer paper and
[16:31]do a lot of reading. So I'm recovering from that. Why did you do that? Well, you know, it turned out
[16:38]to be interesting in terms of the end Frank book, but I, you know, I write a lot about religion
[16:44]and philosophy and history. And it just seemed like a good place for me to take a minute and breathe
[16:51]and do some research. And that, you know, I kind of found a novel that I'm working on.
[16:56]So that was a good move for me. That was all worth it.
[17:02]And, you know, there's the possibility of practical magic being a move. They're being a
[17:07]a practical magic too. So that's very exciting. And I'm just writing.
[17:12]Amazing. And what types of things are you reading? And what did you read any other books about
[17:18]and Frank as you were doing your research that you hadn't read before or about that period of time
[17:23]or other historical novels or anything that you're like, people should read this too that maybe
[17:28]they missed or anything like that. I did mostly research historical research. I stayed away from
[17:34]novels. I showed you the stay away from novels when I'm writing a novel because I don't want to
[17:38]be influenced in any way. And so I tend to do more research in my reading. You know, unfortunately,
[17:46]I don't know if you find this, but I find that the more you write, the less you read. And so I'm
[17:51]really looking forward to reading Elizabeth Strath's new book. That's what I'm excited about. But
[17:56]I'm mostly writing right now and reading historical information.
[18:01]What do you think about the situation today, not in terms of political things, but in terms of
[18:09]the fear that many Jewish people are feeling in response to last year's attacks and the
[18:16]rise in antisemitism now versus, you know, when we look back and see how it was building there and
[18:21]you know, now it's so well documented how it all built in the laws of rechanging and all of that,
[18:27]I don't know. How do you feel about today? Well, you know, it's interesting. I feel that it was a
[18:34]really good time to write a band in Frank that I didn't expect all of these things to be happening,
[18:38]you know, last year and this year. But that in reading about her and writing about her,
[18:44]it was really helpful for me to understand that this is a very old situation, a very ancient
[18:53]situation and something that, you know, people have to deal with and have dealt with continuously.
[19:01]And I don't know. People can be people can be really disappointing in a lot of ways.
[19:08]And I think in writing about Anne, it kind of helped me to ruin my faith
[19:12]that in the end, you know, that there would be good people.
[19:16]That's great. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[19:20]Well, I think the best advice that you have to write, like nothing can happen if you don't
[19:28]write. And even if you write a novel and you realize it's not the right novel,
[19:33]you know, the more you write, the better you get, I think. And also, you know, I really,
[19:39]I used to do this. I don't do it as much. I'm reminding myself, I think it's good to write
[19:43]and not read it for a while because it's so easy to be disappointed or to think it's terrible,
[19:48]to be ready to throw it away. And I think it's also good to have readers who are supportive at first,
[19:55]you know, so that you want to keep going, because there's so many people who want to write,
[19:59]but they never,
[20:00]exactly do it or they never exactly finish and it is kind of daunting and it's a lot of work and
[20:05]you know the other thing is that I think sometimes people don't know is that so many writers rewrite
[20:09]I mean 20, 30 times a manuscript so it doesn't happen all at once.
[20:16]Very true good good advice. Definitely might need that. I just finished my latest novel and I
[20:24]literally wrote to started two other ones and I had a 60 page outline and I was like
[20:28]I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to do this other thing over here. Maybe you'll
[20:33]use that material for something else at some point or maybe it will come back in some way.
[20:37]Oh yeah I did not delete it. I put it in like a separate folder. I'm like even if I could use a
[20:41]paragraph it'll be good. Now never delete. Never delete it. Oh my goodness. Okay and do you keep a diary
[20:48]just wondering. Do you ever keep a diary? No. No. No I've never kept a diary. Okay no I'm not that interested
[20:57]in my own real life. The diary of Alice Hoffman not to be. Okay not yet. Not yet. Okay well Alice
[21:08]thank you so much. Thank you for writing this book even though it's a classic came to you and it
[21:13]wasn't like some grand vision. I think it's amazing that you said yes right away delved deep into
[21:20]it. Use your skill to bring this really special girl back to life and it's really important and
[21:28]really amazing. So thank you. Thank you Zibi and I have to say I so honored to be asked to do it.
[21:33]I never thought that would happen to me. So I really appreciate it. It's great talking to you too.
[21:38]Thanks so much. Have a good day. Okay bye bye. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read
[21:46]books. If you love it please leave a review and follow us on social at Zibi Owens and at Zibi
[21:53]readers.