Sophie Kinsella, WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE?

[0:02]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books, hosted by me, Zibi Owens.

[0:07]It's an award-winning podcast with over 1900 episodes, all featuring authors of Books You Love, and those you have yet to discover.

[0:15]Listen daily five times a week. Then go to ZibiMedia.com and learn more about what the LA Times called the Zibiverse.

[0:22]ZibiMedia includes Zibi's bookshop, an independent bookstore in Santa Monica, ZibiBooks Publishing, Zibi Retreat, Zibi's Book Club, and more.

[0:31]Go check it out at ZibiMedia.com and follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens. It'll take you where you need to go.

[0:38]Thanks for listening.

[0:43]Sophie Kinsella is back on the podcast to talk about her latest novel What Does It Feel Like?

[0:48]Sophie is the author of the best-selling Shop of Hollic series, as well as the novels Can You Keep a Secret, the Undabestic Goddess.

[0:55]Remember me? 20s Girl? I've got your number, wedding night, my not-so-perfect life.

[0:59]Surprise me! I owe you one, love your life, the party-crasher, and the burnout.

[1:04]She lives in the UK with her family, and this is inspired in part by her own diagnosis.

[1:11]Listen in.

[1:12]Welcome, Sophie. Thank you so much for coming back on Mom's Don't Have Time Treat books to discuss your latest What Does It Feel Like?

[1:19]Thank you.

[1:21]Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here to talk about it.

[1:24]Oh my goodness. Sophie, this book, as soon as I read your post on Instagram where you shared with your community about your brain cancer,

[1:33]which I know I watched you say, having trouble even saying that from that moment, my heart has been hurting for you and wondering and wanting to know what everything, just like the book says, what was it like for you?

[1:47]You have fans everywhere. You've sold what? 40 million cubbies for your books. We all love you and feel like we know you and that you're going through this.

[1:56]And so, when I saw you were coming out with this, even as fiction, I was like, oh my gosh, and very cautiously read it up as everybody will do.

[2:04]Thank you for sharing it. Can you just speak a little bit? I know that you decided to go fiction and that you've had memory issues understandably after your surgery.

[2:15]But just talk a little bit. Why, how, how did you make this into fiction and how did you come back into your words when they were lost?

[2:25]Oh, that's such a good question because as anybody who reads the book will understand, I had real problems with my memory after I had brain surgery and I couldn't even tell you what the word for a shirt was.

[2:42]I, I, my brain was all muddled up and it took me a long time. And at that stage, I thought, well, I'll never write again. I had given up on the idea that I could ever write a book again.

[2:54]It took me a long time to recover from that. But all the while, I was making notes about what was happening to me and I didn't even know why.

[3:03]I was dictating them. I couldn't write, but I could dictate into my phone. So I would get my phone. I had to think, well, that was a weird conversation or that was an extraordinary experience and I would talk about it into my phone.

[3:15]I didn't know why. I thought, well, maybe I'll be interested later down the line to look back or my children will be interested.

[3:22]And it was only much, much later that I realized that I wanted to write about this experience. And as you say, just tell anybody who's interested what it feels like to wake up in hospital and you've lost your memory, you can't walk.

[3:36]Then you get given this scary diagnosis and just to kind of put it all down without it being too gloomy or too depressing, but still in the style that I like to write, which is finding the optimism and finding the humor.

[3:51]Even when things are tricky.

[3:53]Well, well, the end result, as I'm sure you know, is so exceptional. And the way you did it differently this time with these little snapshots and scenes that just are like little arrows thrown in little darts like,

[4:09]you just get the reader into the moment. You don't actually even need any more words, right? You just take us right there. Are those some of the scenes that you were, are those the notes that you were keeping and they became scenes in the book? Is that, and is that just how your mind works? Like, oh, this is, this is gold. Let me, let me keep it.

[4:31]Anything that was remarkable. I made a note of and the style of the book, I think reflects my mind as I was going through all of this. It came to me in a series of snapshots because I kept losing my memory in between.

[4:48]So when I look back at what happened, it is a series of little vignettes and slice of life. And then with gaps in between. And that seemed the most natural way for me to tell the book. And I didn't want it to be a long memoir about my life starting from, you know, when I was a baby.

[5:07]Because at one stage, I did think, should I make this nonfiction? Should this become my autobiography? Should I write just, you know, a standard issue memoir, but do you know something? I write fiction. I make it up.

[5:21]That's what I do.

[5:23]And I realized that I wasn't happy in telling the truth partly because I'm really bad with facts. I can't remember facts. I get them wrong. And I knew I would get something wrong. I would get letters and people saying you didn't.

[5:37]It wasn't that doctor. It wasn't that medicine. It wasn't that day.

[5:41]And I thought I will be happiest in my comfort zone, which is fiction. Make it up. It doesn't matter if the details aren't quite as long as the story is true. The feelings are true. The experience is honest.

[5:55]It doesn't matter if it was a Wednesday, not a Thursday. And so I just decided to make it the most honest fiction I've ever written because it's so close to my life. It's so close to me.

[6:08]Well, it's so funny. It's almost like, why would we expect Francis Ford Coppola to all of a sudden make a documentary?

[6:15]Jimmy, like, he's like a brilliant filmmaker and he does what he does. Like, you do what you do. Like, you do.

[6:21]Like, oh, on top of cancer, would you mind switching genres and learning a whole new way to write?

[6:27]Exactly. Exactly. You do what you do. And I make up stories. I always have. And I think in this case, it was also really valuable for me to have a way to

[6:38]tell the story to be on in control of the story because I felt so out of control during this whole period. I woke up in hospital. I had no memory of why I was there. I was handing my life over to medical professionals and having to just listen to them understand what was going on.

[6:58]Do you know what? In the book, when I was writing fiction, I was in charge. I was back in the driving seat and I could tell the story as I wanted to tell it. I could make sense of it. I could create an optimistic narrative.

[7:12]And all of that was really comforting and cathartic. I also was able to make myself laugh. And all the way through. I've tried to laugh whenever I can because I do think it is the bed.

[7:25]I really do. Your humor comes through everything. I mean, the scene where you're telling your kids over scrabble.

[7:32]And you know, you're prepared as a reader to just like pour tears reading how you had to do this the most difficult thing.

[7:40]And yet, you guys are also funny. And all of you are just trading barbs. I mean, it's so real, even though it's fiction. It's also real and so beautiful.

[7:50]Thank you so much. I'm really glad. I'm, I don't know. Just glad if it speaks to anybody because it's such a personal book. It feels like anybody who reads it and understands it, understands me. It feels like a very kind of one on one dialogue. I'm having with the reader.

[8:07]Well, everyone will feel that way. It's, it's sensational. Why did you wait about a year and a half and maybe part of it is health reasons too, but you have a public, right? You have you the person and you and your family as a mom and a wife and your, you know, your, your intimate life.

[8:25]And then of course you have your legions of fans. You waited a year and a half to post about it publicly and then we're inundated by the love and all of that.

[8:34]What was the tipping point? Why and when did you decide to share it and do you have any regrets about that?

[8:40]No, you know, it was exactly the right time for me. And I think what happened was it took me a long time to recover from the brain surgery, from treatments. I wasn't in a very strong place at all.

[8:56]And I think if you're going to share news, you have to be strong because you're going to get a reaction. We really learned that because my husband was the one who had to tell all of closer friends and people who had spotted me on the street and thought I didn't look very well.

[9:15]He had to tell them all one on one and found it really hard because they would be so shocked and then that would come bouncing back to him.

[9:24]And I knew that when I told the public that I would get this reaction and I needed to be prepared for it and prepared to engage.

[9:33]And we kept it secret to begin with to protect the children because I didn't want them hearing about it sort of second hand in the playground. I knew that the news would spread.

[9:44]So, so that was the first reason for keeping it tight. And then I I didn't know we just got into a habit and I kept thinking, well, I need to tell everybody but not being quite ready.

[9:54]And it was only when I just felt I am strong enough to do this now and I'm strong enough to talk about it. And I'm not going to

[10:00]a cry. It's going to be fine, but I felt able to share it. And as I expected, my readers gave

[10:05]me nothing but love because I have the best readers in the world. I have maintained this many times.

[10:12]They are just absolutely lovely, warm, optimistic and full of good humor. And so I was really

[10:21]bold over by how kind they were. Well, I am just one of your legions of fans. I've been reading

[10:28]from the beginning of the Shopaholic series all the way through. I feel like we've all like

[10:31]grown up with you and grown up together. Right. Even though your characters are still sometimes

[10:36]younger than we are, you know, occasionally. We still all grown up and it's just so beautiful.

[10:44]One thing I was struck with in the book that I really honestly cannot stop thinking about

[10:48]is how you decided that you don't want to go off on this bucket list. I mean, there's this narrative

[10:54]that, right, you get the sentence. And next thing you know, you're like in the satials or something.

[10:59]I don't know. But you're like, no, I just want to be home with my kids. I want more of this.

[11:04]I want normal plus. Like that's what I want. I want like marmalade jam, whatever jam you like.

[11:10]Can you just speak more about that? Because isn't that really it? Isn't that the meaning of

[11:14]all of it? It's not like the far-flowing places we go. And it's just finding more meaning and what

[11:19]we do already. Yes. Yes. So that is very much mirror is what happened in my own life. And I think

[11:26]you're right about the narrative. So the narrative is you get a diagnosis. Then you make your bucket

[11:32]list. Then you go and meet a celebrity or you swim with the dolphins or you track up a mountain.

[11:38]And these are going to create amazing memories for you and for the people that you're with.

[11:44]And I found that I just resisted that kind of a thing. Everything that my husband would

[11:49]suggest to me. I'd be like, well, no, I don't really want to do that. And I felt like a spoil sport,

[11:54]you know, I need to be putting on my life care and climbing up Everest. But really what I wanted

[11:59]to do is just lead my life, but just make it a bit nicer. And I think we can all just increase

[12:06]our quality of life incrementally with just like a little treat here, a little treat there.

[12:12]And what I've really learned is that you can make your life better by just framing it by

[12:19]just appreciating it by just going over the day. Now, this is something that we've started to do

[12:24]before we go to bed is we go over the day. Partly, it has to be said because I have such a shocking

[12:29]memory now that I need to be reminded of what we did. But we go over the day and we say, well,

[12:34]we did this and we saw this friend. We had this really lovely meal. We went for a walk and we saw

[12:40]this lovely view. And you just turn the day into a series of good moments and just appreciate it

[12:47]all the more. And I am happy with that. I don't need to be doing the big grand stuff. You know,

[12:54]give me just a little treat. I mean, one of my treats that I give myself is that I love things

[13:00]that smell lovely. So I'll have like pillows spray or I'll have like a scented modulation.

[13:05]And I'll treat myself to something small that really does impinge on my life, but isn't

[13:11]dramatic, doesn't require me to get on a plane. It's just a small pleasure. And I've

[13:15]really do find this a valuable way to get about it. I feel like that's what all these mindfulness

[13:22]people are trying to tell us, isn't it? Like find the choice in these moments, pay attention to the

[13:28]beauty and yet we're so consumed with all the to-do lists and everything else that it's easy to

[13:35]miss. And I feel like your book is a big like, no, no, no, like don't miss that. This is what

[13:40]it's all about. Yeah, I think so. And it took, I mean, I was exactly the same. And I used to

[13:47]kind of scoff at mindfulness because I remember going to a mindfulness class once and we all had to

[13:52]look at a raisin. I'm kind of trying to kind of engage with the raisin. And I didn't really

[14:00]respond to that. But I find coming to it through, this is going to sound really corny,

[14:05]but coming to it through gratitude, just being really grateful for the, the lovely thing that

[14:11]you had, whether it's a conversation, a friend, just even being British, a good, good weather day

[14:18]will suffice. You know, it didn't rain. Or, you know, in my case, a lovely cup of tea. I mean,

[14:26]we, we have an hour habit in my husband and I of turning every single cup of tea we have into

[14:31]like a massive treat. Like we, we almost play with it. Like not a cup of tea. Yes, we're going to

[14:38]have a cup of tea. And you know, you can kind of transform your own mood by being a bit silly,

[14:43]but finding the good hearted good nature in just small things. It's amazing. Your husband, by the

[14:50]way, has become like leading man 101 in this, in this whole thing. I was watching, I don't know,

[14:58]you were on some show and people were, you know, fawning over him. Like he's Harrison Ford and all

[15:03]of this. And of course, like, you know, the character in the book, like the husband is just like the

[15:09]most lovable, amazing person. Like, how does it feel to like bring your own husband into character

[15:15]land and share a love story of your own after all of this time? It's, it's funny. I mean, I've

[15:21]always been really private. I haven't sort of shared my whole life on social media. I've always felt

[15:27]I connect through my words to, to my readers. When I told this book, I just thought, sorry,

[15:33]wrote this book, I just thought I want to be honest. I want to just tell it like it is. So I

[15:38]will have to tell you that that pretty much is my husband. I mean, anybody who raised this book

[15:43]now knows me, my husband, my children, my sense of humor, my everything, because it's all,

[15:49]it's all in the book. And it's all pretty much true. He, we did, we did walk in the streets.

[15:57]I did try to learn Christmas carols again. This is all scenes from the book. And he did sleep

[16:02]on the floor next to my husband bed. Well, he's like, mensch extraordinaire. Honestly,

[16:08]you know, that is high praise. He'll be thrilled. You know, the other through line of the story

[16:17]of course is you as a mom. And as a mom, myself and as so many other people, you know, our,

[16:23]our first instinct is always to protect the kids and make sure they're okay. And, and yet when

[16:28]something like this happens, you feel, you must feel so powerless. And I know you wrote about it. So

[16:33]I feel like I, you know, I get a glimpse. But what can you do? And you won't, when you can't do

[16:39]anything or when you're in talk about that. It's just horrible. It's just horrible. I felt

[16:45]so guilty. When, when I was told the news, I didn't feel bad, you know, for myself.

[16:51]I felt like what have I done to my children? And even now, I know that this is not my fault.

[16:59]But, and this is in the book as well, you start to realize that you can feel guilty for having

[17:04]had bad luck because you had children and you were supposed to protect them. You were supposed

[17:11]to be there for them. And so the idea that you may not be there for them is just really hard.

[17:17]It's the hardest bit about this whole experience has been the idea that I might not be around

[17:24]for them. And I still find really, really hard. And all I can do is just hope that I have

[17:32]prepared them, that they are in good shape, that we have a good family support system.

[17:38]And, and that it will be okay. But that was the hardest thing in the hospital. And people

[17:43]used to keep exclaiming because I have five children, which is a lot. And I remember in the hospital,

[17:49]everybody who heard this would exclaim, five children. And it would, I would feel like saying,

[17:54]yes, I know. I know. It's awful. Don't remind me. I have five children and I also have this disease

[18:01]that, you know, thanks for rubbing it in. It was, it was tough. But I am an optimist,

[18:07]as you will know, if you read the book. And I just think my children are in good shape. And that's,

[18:13]that's all I can do for them is just bring them up, give them resilience. Hope they're in good

[18:19]shape and just be around for as long as I possibly can. It makes me want to cry because, I mean,

[18:25]isn't this what everybody worries about? You know, we're all going to leave our children.

[18:30]I mean, having a diagnosis is one thing. And, but this is what everybody, we're all human beings.

[18:36]And we can walk outside today and get hit by a car. Do you know what I mean? We don't, none of

[18:41]our guarantee of any sort of long-term stay. You know, we, nobody gets this permission or this

[18:48]guarantee and every day. No, I do know when you say permission, when I first got told that I

[18:54]was very ill. I had this kind of irrational response in my brain. It was like, but I have five

[19:02]children. So I know you've got this wrong because I'm a mother of five. So I can't have the bad

[19:06]disease. So could you move along to someone else? Because I just still is impossible. I've,

[19:12]I've got to be here. I've got to be here. And there's no way to ways about it. And it took me

[19:18]a really long time to just sort of get past that feeling like there's been a mistake

[19:23]because I'm a mother of five. I can't do this. That took a long time to get over.

[19:28]I have four kids. And so I'm always like, is this just irresponsible if we need to put all these kids

[19:34]into the world? I don't know. What was I thinking? Is that bad? What do you even make of that?

[19:44]Oh my goodness. How has it been? I saw you opening the box as writers do the joy of opening the new

[19:52]box of books and all that. And of course this book is so personal to you. Book marketing itself

[19:58]is just such a, can you?

[20:00]oppressive drag of sorts, right? And all of the things that are comforting it. And yet,

[20:05]the joy of seeing a book is so amazing and often it's lost, right? And all of the stress

[20:11]surrounding the marketing of it and all of that. Like, can you speak to how you're approaching

[20:17]this book? And perhaps how that can affect how everybody feels the promotion and coming out of

[20:24]every book because of your attitude. I'm just so grateful that I've been able to write this

[20:30]book because I thought I would never write a book again. I assumed that this was, you know, I woke

[20:35]up in a hospital bed with a great big scar over my head. I couldn't move and move my hair. I

[20:41]couldn't form words properly. I couldn't hold a pen. No way was I ever going to write another

[20:46]book. I just assumed that that was part of my life was dead. And it was only months later that I

[20:52]was able to start putting this book together and finding joy in it and realizing that that I wanted

[20:59]it to be a proper book, you know, not just something for myself, but a published book. And I didn't

[21:04]know what would happen to it. It was not like what I normally do. So the idea that it would one day,

[21:12]I would open this box and they would be this book with the most beautiful cover and that I would

[21:16]be doing what I do as well. I think there's a great comfort for me in feeling I'm back to what I do.

[21:22]I write books. They arrive in boxes. I open them. And, you know, my life in that regard is not over.

[21:29]It's it's still going. It's just amazing. And I do happen to think it's the most beautiful

[21:36]cover. It's just stunning. Well, in both the covers, the US and the US, I mean, look at that.

[21:41]It is gorgeous. It's just gorgeous for people listening. It's a woman from the bag with

[21:47]this gorgeous ball gown. And in the UK cover, I saw as well that the person is hiding,

[21:53]he was hiding behind a curtain sort of in a hospital gown that morphs into a real gown, which is

[21:59]just gorgeous. It's so beautiful. Yeah. And I've been so touched by the kind of the thoughtfulness

[22:04]that has gone into the publication of this book by my publishers. And I am so touched by

[22:11]the responses I've had from people who have seen me or heard me or just come across my story,

[22:17]that I feel this isn't like marketing the average book. It's like a big conversation about some

[22:24]quite deep and personal stuff. So it's also cathartic for me. You know, this maybe this is like

[22:33]one big round of therapy that I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing for you and everyone else.

[22:42]You know, I mean, it's such a gift, what you've given the world with this book. There are all

[22:47]gifts, but this is a true, true beautiful gift because it's helping everybody else find all that

[22:55]meaning in their own lives. And how what, what, what, what better way for a book to reach people

[23:00]isn't that what story is all about? Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, you've got to,

[23:04]you've got to have some truths in your story. I always believe that, you know, the best comedy

[23:09]comes out of truth and painfulness. The best stories come out of truth and painfulness. And,

[23:16]you know, there's optimism even when there's, you know, horrendous news. There can be optimism. And

[23:23]what I hope is that this book is helpful to anybody who is going through something similar,

[23:31]or perhaps just has struggles needs a bit of perspective, needs to laugh, needs to, you know,

[23:37]know what it's like, or even just anybody who's curious. And I think that's where

[23:42]the title came from and the initial idea came from is that I could tell that my friends

[23:47]were curious. Like, well, what is it like to go through something so extraordinary?

[23:52]I remember a friend of my husband's once asked him, what do you talk about? He, he just wondered

[23:58]what my husband and I talked about faced with this extraordinary thing in our life.

[24:05]And so I thought, well, you know, maybe people are interested to know the nitty-gritty of what

[24:10]it's like. And that's, you know, how, what led my writing. There's one moment in the book where

[24:16]you say to your husband and, I'm sorry, when Eve is talking to her husband and has a moment of

[24:22]panic, which of course comes and goes throughout the book and just says like, well, when I die,

[24:27]you have to be there, right? Because I always go in the wrong directions and I might not get where

[24:31]I'm going. But can you make sure you're there, you know, and that that feeling of both the humor,

[24:38]your signature humor, but also just the, what do we do? Like, is there anything we can do

[24:44]aside from hold on to? I don't know. Talk about that scene. Well, it's, it's again, as me finding

[24:52]the kind of the, the, the flippant humor that I can't help myself in every situation. So even when

[24:57]Eve is contemplating death, she is, you know, I would like to think one of my typical heroines,

[25:04]you know, you know, I always have to find the funny side of any situation. And, you know,

[25:10]I'll be honest. I do think about death now in a way that I didn't. I have questions, which I

[25:16]can't answer. I'm curious. I want to be prepared. And that is part and parcel of what happens,

[25:24]I think, when you find yourself in my position, you know, my, my doctors are very optimistic and

[25:30]talk as though I have, you know, a long time ahead of me. And for that, I'm very grateful.

[25:35]But at the same time, you know, I've had an almighty shock. And so I can't help

[25:40]the odd moment of catastrophizing and thinking, well, what if, what if, what if, I live in uncertainty,

[25:46]and that's a very tough place to live in. But by turning some of my thoughts into a funny scene in a

[25:54]book, that's, that makes me happy. That makes me happy. That's amazing. So, V, thank you for

[26:01]taking this time with me today in case you forgot. We're still in mom. So I don't have time to read

[26:05]books. Thank you, seriously, for the book for all of the work that you do. But this book is one of

[26:15]my favorites of all time. It's just, it's, it's everything. It's a primer on how to live and

[26:22]why we do everything and the celebration of love and family. And it is sensational. And

[26:30]amazing. So thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Wow. You are so kind. Thank you so much

[26:34]for this conversation and for your kind words about the book. That honestly, it means so much to me.

[26:39]I'm going to cry now. Me too. I'm going to go like, oh my eyes out after this.

[26:47]Thank you so much. It's been amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I'm sending love.

[26:52]I asked me. You don't even know me. But anyway, bye. Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye.