Lauren Grodstein, WE MUST NOT THINK OF OURSELVES
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[0:42]Lauren Grozdine is the author of We Must Not Think of Ourselves.
[0:46]Lauren is also the author of Our Short History, The Washington Post Book of the Year, The Explanation for Everything,
[0:53]and The New York Times for selling a friend of the family among other works.
[0:57]Her stories essays and articles have appeared in various literary magazines and anthologies,
[1:01]and have been translated into French, German, Chinese, and Italian, among other languages.
[1:06]Her work has appeared in L, The New York Times, Refinery29, Salon.com,
[1:11]Ferrell House, Post Road, and The Washington Post. She is a professor of English at Rutgers University,
[1:16]Camden, where she also teaches in the MFA program in creative writing.
[1:20]Welcome, Lauren. Thanks so much for coming.
[1:22]I'm Momstone. I have time to read books to discuss. We must not think of ourselves an oval.
[1:26]Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you.
[1:30]Your book was so good. Oh my gosh. The heaviness of that time just sits on my chest
[1:37]as things come up today as well. But the way that you told the story was different than anything
[1:42]I had read, and it's so specific about this time in the worst I'd get out.
[1:46]Tell listeners who haven't read it yet. What your book is about.
[1:49]Okay, so in 1939, you guys know, the Germans invaded Poland and sort of split it with the Soviet Union,
[1:58]but but the Germans took over Warsaw and other major cities and very quickly began to
[2:03]institute the Nuremberg laws in the same way that they had in Germany, which meant you couldn't
[2:08]go to the movies. You couldn't send your kids to public school pretty soon. You couldn't keep
[2:11]that much money in a bank. And then any money you couldn't keep your jobs. Your life was so
[2:16]circumscribed. And then finally, signs went up saying that all of the Jewish citizens of various
[2:23]cities had to move into historic Jewish centers. And anyone who wasn't Jewish had to leave.
[2:28]So if you already lived in that center, you could stay in your house, but a lot of people couldn't
[2:32]and they get had to give up everything and take almost nothing with them and sort of pair up or
[2:36]triple up in these new apartments in the historical Jewish centers of these different cities.
[2:42]And in Warsaw, that area became known as the ghetto. The gates were locked at 2 p.m. on a November
[2:48]afternoon in 1940. And a man named Emmanuel Ringelblum was this a story in real life figure
[2:53]who understood right away in a way that many, many people did not, that this was not just like one
[3:00]difficult moment in Polish Jewish history, a thousand year history, but it could very well be like
[3:05]the last moment as indeed it was. So what he did almost immediately was assemble me, maybe 60 that
[3:13]we know of writers, intellectuals, journalists, artists handed them white notebooks and said,
[3:19]I want you to write this all down. You're going to write down everything you see. You're going to write
[3:24]everything you notice so that we control the truth, the Nazis have taken everything from us,
[3:29]our homes, our livelihoods, in some cases, our families, but they will not take the truth.
[3:34]And so for the next two and a half years, until the uprising, this group, they call themselves
[3:40]Onek Shabbat, the joy of the Sabbath, kept a secret archive. They buried it underground. Three
[3:46]members of the archive survived Ringelblum himself was shot with his wife and son in 1944.
[3:52]And they somehow figured out how to wear the look, I mean, which is kind of amazing because
[3:56]after the uprising, the whole ghetto was bulldozed. And they dug it up. And now it exists in this
[4:03]very small precious museum in Warsaw that stands where the Onek Shabbat group used to have its
[4:11]meetings. So I was there in 2019 for my nephew's bar mitzvah. He did like a family heritage thing.
[4:17]And I could not believe this archive was there, A, that I never heard of it, B, because I went to
[4:23]Hebrews, you know, like kind of, right? I've been to museums. And let's see, no one else seems
[4:28]to know about it either. And so I was really fascinated by it. But never, you know, I've only written
[4:34]novels about like, I don't know, women in the Upper West side, like, you know, struggling with like
[4:39]shitty husbands, like that's always been my thing. And I'm sorry if I'm not allowed to curse on this
[4:42]podcast. I, I never written historical fiction. I'd certainly never wanted to talk with a Holocaust.
[4:49]It didn't, you know, so all I did for nine months was to sort of study this archival project
[4:53]and just read about it, not for any real reason, just because I thought it was interesting.
[4:57]And then when the pandemic started and everybody needed a project, I decided to make this one mine.
[5:02]And if I failed, I failed. It doesn't matter. Right? I'm just going to try to write this book,
[5:06]because if I don't do anything during this time, I'm going to lose my mind. And so that's,
[5:10]that's sort of where the book came from. That's a long answer to a short question.
[5:14]That's okay. I was time curious. I know you wrote some of this in the note or whatever. But
[5:18]hearing you describe it is really interesting. One of the themes throughout the book is that
[5:23]Adam doesn't know why he was called to record and be part of the own extra movement. Like he
[5:30]doesn't understand why do we need to write down all of these individual things. Like what is this
[5:34]for? Who is this interesting? And yet he decides as an English teacher and that he'll do it,
[5:39]he'll record all the things. And it isn't until the end that he's like, Oh, I'm recording this
[5:46]because there might not be a Polish Jewish population at all. Like this is the end of the line.
[5:52]And that's why just to record the everyday of giving the kids a bath and whatever it is,
[5:58]which is just so moving. It was the end of us, right? And then even if a few people survived
[6:05]here and there, there would be no more us. Yeah. And there had been a Polish Jewish community
[6:09]for a thousand years. And if you think of art that come true that you and I are sitting in
[6:13]right now, like 250 is straight, more or less, a thousand year history just wiped out. It's almost
[6:21]unimaginable. And the way that the individual scenes are depicted in the book too. Like even when
[6:27]you say things like, okay, 6,000 people around it, round it up today. Yeah, right. But you're like
[6:32]6,000 people. That's like a town. That's like a synagogue and of this and of that. Yeah. I mean,
[6:37]it's so many people just every day. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think the magnitude of it is still, I think
[6:44]one of the reasons that people diminish the Holocaust is first of all because they're morally bankrupt,
[6:48]but also because I think that they don't, those numbers are impossible. They're impossible. What
[6:52]is 6,000 people? What is 6 million people? It's not, it's, it's so huge as to be almost
[6:58]abstract. And also what's the point? It's every one person. That's the, that's the tragedy,
[7:03]every single one of us. So, you know, I think for Adam, the, the diary project just gave him
[7:11]a purpose amidst this tremendous loss. And with that purpose came a reason to keep going.
[7:16]And you show us what it was like from the point of view of the kids he was teaching, a few
[7:21]in particular, how he was sharing a house with another family, his relationship with
[7:28]the woman in the family and how that evolves every time. The scene where they're all shaving
[7:33]their heads. Oh my gosh. And how he says like it have been so long since anyone touched
[7:39]my hair in that way. And just the sensory of it, like you could feel being in that room with them.
[7:45]And what she looked like and what he looked like. And oh my gosh, it was like, I feel like I was there,
[7:51]the way you told it. Yeah. Thanks. We ever gotten it like, no,
[7:55]you get your hair. Yep. Like a fun cut. And they wash your hair. And it's like the best.
[8:00]Yeah. Yeah. And how all of this stress, it's really good. And all of the stress
[8:05]can sort of dissolve for a second if somebody touches your scalp or temples or something.
[8:10]And I was really trying to channel that in that scene how that feels.
[8:13]I was just telling my kids I was like giving one of them a hug. I was like,
[8:16]you know, this has physiological benefits. It's not just that feels good.
[8:19]You have to let me hug you. Yeah. Yeah. This will bring down your pose. And you know,
[8:24]this will help you in general. Yeah. You know, one thing that is also really interesting about
[8:29]the book is that when we hear about all these horrible Holocaust stories, it's always like the
[8:33]tragedies that happen during the Holocaust. These small moments that are like the most horrific
[8:38]things ever. But his atoms mourning of his wife who died in this freak accident before things
[8:46]got really bad. His keeping her memory alive is another through line of the whole book,
[8:54]right? And how think about just that one life and how the loss of his wife affected him
[8:59]throughout. And even as he's stripped of everything and gets to a point where he's like,
[9:04]I know I was married to her. I don't even have any pictures. But I know it. I remember it.
[9:09]All of that. Like they can't take that memory away. And then you of course, you know,
[9:13]most of why that time six million or whatever, however many losses, like that how it feels to lose
[9:20]one person you love is like, I don't know. I mean, it's everything. It's everything. It's
[9:27]everything. Yeah. And I don't know if you do this when you write, but like sometimes I just write
[9:32]towards my darkest fears to see if I could survive it. You know, and I've done that in earlier
[9:38]and I always sort of realized, well, like I would, I would be very hard, but I could,
[9:43]but this time I was like, I don't know. Like I gave Adam a strength and a resilience that I just
[9:47]don't know if I have myself or if I would just give up at some point. I mean, he wouldn't have thought
[9:53]he could. I mean, I think it's one day after another, you never know. I mean, these are extraordinary
[9:59]circumstances.
[10:00]not in a good way. I mean, extra or, you know, yeah. And by the end, oh my gosh, the way you
[10:04]ended the book. I just like, it's just, it's like sitting here. It's like something I can't
[10:10]quite swallow like, you know, rice stuck in my chest or something. It's just, I don't mean to
[10:16]laugh. It's so sad. No, it's so beautiful. It's so hopeful. It's like that this happened in
[10:22]like my grandparents lifetime. This happened. It's like I still having spent years of my life now.
[10:30]in this moment, right? Like talking about it, researching it, writing it. I still sometimes can't
[10:36]believe this all happened. How could this, how could the world have left this happen? Yeah.
[10:39]But the way you took it apart in particular, the news that came at certain times,
[10:45]like the rationalizations like, oh, no, no, like we have, the allies will be here. Like it's fine.
[10:50]And then I'm sure this will be like a three month thing. And I did harken back to COVID when we're
[10:54]all like, oh, yeah, I'm going to pack for two weeks, you know, they thought they would be there just for a
[10:58]a little bit. And that's very different because we know looking back how long everything took.
[11:02]But at the moment, they're just like, oh, this is just a bad spot. How am I going to get these
[11:07]memory, this earned back this time for the kids? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how one day it just
[11:13]becomes like the whole story, like the whole thing unfolded. Yeah. Perfect. Anyway.
[11:19]Deep talks. Deep thoughts of the day. You know, reading your book, you know, I like so many
[11:25]people who are obsessed with this time period. I think to understand it. And I think like you said
[11:31]to sort of prevent against it or whatever. It occurred to me that like maybe some people don't
[11:36]understand it as well because they haven't read 8,000 books. You know, I mean, this sense,
[11:41]this doesn't sense like ridiculously obvious. But we all are so familiar with what happened.
[11:46]And I say we all like most Jewish people who are who read and reread stories about the Holocaust,
[11:53]not just textbooks, but books like this and experiences and whatever. But I think for most people,
[11:59]if you just learn about it and you don't dig into those personal experiences, maybe you don't
[12:04]understand like the true scope. And also think about how it gets taught who it gets taught to,
[12:10]like, you know, I mean, this is a, it's mandated. I live in New Jersey where Holocaust
[12:14]education is actually mandated as it is in New York. And I think, you know, a few other states. But
[12:19]if it's not and your history curriculum has a lot to get through. And it's easy for people to
[12:25]never know, right? To never learn. You don't go to Hebrew school. You don't know any Jewish people.
[12:29]You've heard of it vaguely in the same way you heard of World War I vaguely, but what does it
[12:34]really mean? Like it's almost not quite, but almost easy to see how it becomes just another sort of
[12:40]tick in the world's list of sort of horrible things in history. This archive was found in Poland.
[12:46]So one of the reasons I learned that I didn't know that much about it was that it was
[12:50]discovered in Poland in 1946 and again in the rest of 1950. And that, you know, Poland was communist.
[12:56]It was, it had like war side, very strong ties. It wasn't, it wasn't part of the USSR,
[13:02]but it was sort of a satellite state, a client state of Moscow. And according to Soviet ideology,
[13:09]the only people who suffered from the Nazi cruelty were other communists, not Jews. So like,
[13:15]even though most of the Holocaust took place behind the Iron Curtain, there was not a lot of,
[13:20]if any sort of commemoration, memorialization, understanding of what had happened,
[13:25]the Holocaust was in some ways suppressed for a long time in certain places. And so I think
[13:31]anyway, one of the reasons that that this archive is sort of under known, it's just because of
[13:35]where it was found. But I think that education and you think about how much it probably is left
[13:40]to learn, even though we feel like there are millions of books and seminars and museums and
[13:45]studies, there's still things that we don't know and we don't know of them in part, I think,
[13:49]because of where they happened. The other thing that I think is so crucial, right, is, is not just
[13:56]sort of the easy way of never forget, which of course, yes, never forget, but also what are we never
[14:01]going to forget? I mean, I think teaching our children not just what happened, how it happened.
[14:07]Exactly. How it could happen. Understanding things about our fellow man that allows us to happen,
[14:13]all that feels just more and more important to me now. Yeah, I feel like the history of knowing
[14:23]how to spot the signs when they start. Exactly. Exactly. It's crucial to know. Yeah, you have to
[14:31]be aware all the time of what's coming. I had heard of Onig Shabbat, to be honest, but I hadn't spoken
[14:39]to anybody who had seen any of it or whatever, even though even though the fascination with the
[14:43]languages, which Adam is very interested in, and there's a lot of talk in the book about when he's
[14:50]speaking, when he's speaking to the kids in English and how he wants them to learn English, because
[14:53]it'll help him and when which character, verse back to what language and then in the end,
[14:59]you're really calling out why he's fascinated by language and is the Yiddish language
[15:04]going to disappear all together? Talk about that piece of the puzzle.
[15:09]So it comes from a lot of this. First of all, I don't know if you speak different languages,
[15:13]I would like to. I have always been fascinated. There was an article in the Washington Post
[15:18]year ago to, who knows, timing at me and something, but a little while ago there was this article
[15:22]about a guy who, I think he was a carpet cleaner and he was just also a poly bot, like he just
[15:28]naturally, like he could hear a conversation Portuguese and suddenly speak Portuguese. He spoke like
[15:33]26 languages and that to me is the dream. Like the idea that I could be like a one woman babble
[15:38]fish and just like like speak anything because when I when I travel, I'm so frustrated by my
[15:42]inability to communicate as you can tell them a big talker. And so like the idea of speaking
[15:48]many, many languages, which by the way, many of our grandparents did effortlessly,
[15:51]because they did have to live in different, right? They had to sort of switch depending on
[15:56]who they were talking to or what they spoke. So Adam has this gift that I want, which is like
[16:01]he can speak several languages, but especially English Polish and Yiddish, a which are the different
[16:06]languages that are spoken in in the ghetto for the most, not English, but Polish and Yiddish.
[16:11]And the other thing that I think is makes it sort of interesting is that Poland, which I think
[16:15]we think I think of as this very monolithic society, right? Catholic white wasn't before the war,
[16:22]for Germans, Ukrainians, Jews, lots of different people living in a multi-ethnic country. And so his
[16:29]fascination with languages sort of reflects or his his knowledge of languages reflects the reality
[16:34]of the country in which he lived. But the final reason that he really loves language, I think,
[16:39]is because every language has its own specific ways of expressing things and Adam's expressive
[16:45]kind of person and there are different ways to say, like, I love you and they mean slightly
[16:48]different things. Or like, I miss you, like in French, it's too mimonged, so the you comes before
[16:53]the I miss. It just like changed your brain a little bit when you see different ways, different
[17:01]languages express similar feelings. And I think for Adam, he recognized that and that helped
[17:07]like the broadness of the ways he could express himself gave him a lot of comfort,
[17:12]because he could speak these different languages. It's amazing. And how has this deep dive
[17:18]into this time period and even coming out and touring in the book and the success of it and all that,
[17:23]like, what new have you learned about this time period or about yourself after the whole thing?
[17:31]So much. So much. First of all, I think the most
[17:35]think like, what have I learned about myself? Is that it is okay for me to just shut up and listen
[17:40]sometimes what has happened, especially, so I've been beyond blessed to be invited all over the
[17:46]country to sort of talk about this book to meet different people. And in some places, Florida, for
[17:52]instance, there's a pretty pretty dense population to be there. A Holocaust survivors are more frequently
[17:57]now the children of Holocaust survivors. And after certain events, there was one outside Toronto,
[18:03]there's one in Fort Lauderdale, a few others where people just come up to me afterwards. I'm
[18:09]signing books. And they just want me to hear their story. And for a long time, I felt like
[18:13]I was supposed to give something back. Like, you tell me your story and then I offer something,
[18:17]but I don't know what I'm supposed to offer. Like, what can I say? Like, that is unbelievable. I
[18:23]can't believe your parents survived. You survived. And then I realized, oh, I don't have to say
[18:28]anything at all. Like, what people want is to be heard. They want to make sure someone else in
[18:33]the world knows their story. And I have learned about myself that I can just shut up, listen,
[18:38]and afterwards say thank you so much. I won't forget that. And people seem that's all people
[18:43]seem to want. Like, someone else knows and it won't be forgotten. So I have been very, very honored
[18:50]to try to hold these stories, right? Especially as the people who witness Holocaust
[18:56]firsthand are passing passing on. You know, and the other thing, like, I was a little worried
[19:01]about security at this difficult time. I was a little bit worried. Certainly about Holocaust denial
[19:08]or about anti-Semitic. I don't know. I didn't know if, like, on good reads. I was going to get
[19:13]flamed for writing a book that is proudly Jewish and about something historical and true that many
[19:19]people wanted to finish. But I've been very, very lucky. I understand and grateful that people have
[19:24]been really supportive of me and of this book. People have been, and not just Jewish audience
[19:30]by any means. I've spoken at, like, you know, historically black colleges. I've spoken
[19:34]to a Catholic women's group. I've spoken to all sorts of people. And at least in my experience,
[19:40]which I understand is not universal. People have been really, really curious and great,
[19:45]you know, so that's been a huge relief. Because frankly, if people came at me,
[19:50]I don't know what I would do. I don't know what I would do. I would, I don't know. I'm not very
[19:55]combative. So it would be really hard. I admire people who can just get up and stand up and run.
[20:00]have a lot of facts and I don't know what I would do,
[20:02]but no, but thankfully I haven't, that hasn't happened.
[20:05]Oh, good.
[20:06]Well, that's, yeah.
[20:07]Wait, can you go back to your writing before this book
[20:11]in your description of that has been on the up-row
[20:14]aside that's hilarious.
[20:15]I haven't read your backlets, but obviously,
[20:17]I now need to go back and read it.
[20:19]Talk about getting started
[20:20]and what your other books are about and all that.
[20:22]Okay, so my first book was made thesis.
[20:26]It was a collection of short stories
[20:27]published by a teeny tiny press
[20:29]that's still around that I love.
[20:31]They did a beautiful job,
[20:32]and, but it was a small press book.
[20:34]It wasn't gonna get a huge amount of review attention,
[20:37]but it got one glowing illustrated review
[20:39]and that happened to be in the New York Times book review.
[20:42]So if you're gonna get one review, that should be it,
[20:44]and I was thrilled and felt very famous
[20:48]and then just decided, like if I don't know,
[20:51]that just gave me, I got my MFA,
[20:53]so I was obviously invested,
[20:55]but I thought about going to Los Angeles,
[20:57]maybe trying to write for TV
[20:58]or going to publishing the industry aside or something.
[21:02]But instead, I got a job at a Jewish nonprofit.
[21:05]They closed early on Fridays every week for Shabbat.
[21:10]So before I went to work,
[21:11]and then from like, I don't know,
[21:13]three to five on Friday, it worked on this novel.
[21:15]It was like a very young kids in Brooklyn kind of novel,
[21:19]but fortunately, it was like 2004 or something,
[21:22]and people were really into like kids in Brooklyn,
[21:26]but the first book that I've mine
[21:30]that's sort of found an audience
[21:32]was about a doctor in the New York suburbs.
[21:37]I grew up in a medical community in New Jersey.
[21:39]My dad is a, is, remains an astrologist,
[21:41]a Canadian specialist in the in Bergen County,
[21:44]which is just outside Manhattan.
[21:47]And grew up, I think in this time,
[21:50]that is much harder to emulate now,
[21:52]but like where you could be born, you know,
[21:56]in a one bedroom apartment in the Bronx,
[21:58]or you could write,
[21:58]and then just because of government investment schools,
[22:02]because of your own grit,
[22:03]because of the legacy of your parents
[22:05]and wanting to do better,
[22:06]and honor all the people who made these sacrifices
[22:08]become a doctor in one generation.
[22:12]And so it's a story about a doctor who did that,
[22:15]and now who's son is like farting around
[22:17]and dropping out of college and wants to be an artist,
[22:20]and the father slowly loses his mind.
[22:21]And it's actually a suspense novel.
[22:23]You start, the doc, it's a very intensely first person.
[22:27]You're in the doctor's point of view.
[22:28]He has one son.
[22:30]He knows why he struggled with infertility.
[22:32]He's put everything he has into the son,
[22:34]and the son is not honoring his father,
[22:37]and he slowly loses his mind.
[22:39]And I wrote that book before I had kids,
[22:41]but I knew so deeply,
[22:44]like it's in my bones,
[22:45]what I owe everyone who came before me.
[22:48]So I felt very connected to that dad,
[22:51]who lots of people don't like.
[22:52]So that's okay.
[22:53]And then I've written books about parents and kids
[22:56]that keep coming back to that.
[22:57]Parents want one thing for their kids.
[22:59]Parents who understand that they,
[23:03]so the book that came before we must not think of ourselves
[23:07]was a novel about a single mom on the upper side
[23:11]who has ovarian cancer and who knows
[23:14]that she has to get her son to a safe place before she goes.
[23:19]But she's very dark and very witty and very,
[23:21]she's like a woman you'd probably like hanging out.
[23:23]She's very funny and snarky,
[23:26]and she really, really hates her kids' dad.
[23:28]Like really hates him.
[23:29]He has not been involved in raising the kid at all,
[23:32]but the kid wants to go to the dad.
[23:34]And so it's really a novel of her coming to terms
[23:36]with what the kid wants,
[23:38]as matter is much more than what she wants.
[23:41]Which sounds like a bummer,
[23:42]but isn't because she, again, is sort of funny
[23:44]and snarky and just cool to be with.
[23:47]What's that called?
[23:48]And that is called our short history.
[23:50]And that came out in 17.
[23:53]And then I just took this like weird turn
[23:55]and wrote this book.
[23:57]And then people have asked like,
[23:58]are you gonna do another historical fiction?
[24:00]I don't know.
[24:01]I don't think I'm gonna write about the Holocaust again.
[24:03]I don't, you know, I mean, who knows,
[24:05]never say never, but it really is kind of wrenching
[24:08]to be in that time period for that one.
[24:10]You can see that.
[24:11]Where is this fascination on families and stuff?
[24:14]Have you dug into that in your own thing?
[24:17]Like, there would ever be niers that be let's go back.
[24:20]Yeah, let's go back.
[24:22]I'm really like, it's because I'm like,
[24:24]he was like, I'm super close with my siblings.
[24:26]I'm the oldest of three.
[24:28]My parents, you know, they're pretty good.
[24:31]They did a, you know,
[24:33]we still hang out quite a bit.
[24:34]We were all at the Met's game last week.
[24:36]Like we just, we're, we're tight.
[24:38]We have similar interests.
[24:40]We have similar senses of humor.
[24:42]And I also grew up, I think.
[24:45]My parents were pretty young.
[24:46]People had kids younger than.
[24:48]So like, I didn't grow up with my parents at all.
[24:51]But I grew up aware of them and their relationships
[24:54]with their parents.
[24:55]And I just sort of grew up watching them closely.
[24:59]I think more closely than they would have preferred.
[25:01]I found them really interesting.
[25:03]You know, I find their generation, their boomers.
[25:06]I find the boomers interesting.
[25:07]I find their expectations for the world interesting.
[25:10]Their expectations for us.
[25:12]I'm a writer.
[25:13]So I'm sort of the, I'm the, you know,
[25:15]my sister's a lawyer, my brother's a doctor.
[25:18]Right. Like I'm the one who's like a little like,
[25:20]oh, and they really instilled in us.
[25:24]I think a sense that we, that it was our responsibility
[25:28]to do, to go really far with the gifts we've been given.
[25:32]And I find that kind of dynamic interesting to like,
[25:35]who do we want to succeed for?
[25:37]Like obviously ourselves,
[25:38]but I think also we want to succeed
[25:41]so that we can meet up, meet the standards
[25:43]we were kind of raised with,
[25:44]which sounds like maybe a little bad,
[25:46]but it isn't.
[25:47]It's fine.
[25:48]It's fine.
[25:49]It's like fine.
[25:50]But what's also weird is like,
[25:51]I don't, that's not how I treat my kids at all.
[25:53]Cause I don't have to.
[25:54]Do you know what I mean?
[25:55]Like I feel like I did it.
[25:57]I'm fine.
[25:58]I wrote some books.
[25:59]I've gotten out in the world.
[26:00]So my kids don't have as much, like I'm not trying to like,
[26:04]I don't know.
[26:05]I don't know.
[26:06]Like they can do whatever I don't care.
[26:07]You know what I mean?
[26:08]Just like survive.
[26:09]That's fine.
[26:10]Perfect.
[26:11]Yeah.
[26:12]Just like honestly at this point,
[26:14]just like get out of my house,
[26:15]go get a job.
[26:16]That's like that's the way I work.
[26:17]How old are your kids?
[26:19]There's a big age gap.
[26:21]My son is 16.
[26:22]My daughter is nine.
[26:23]Okay.
[26:24]I have that too.
[26:25]I have 17.
[26:26]Oh, do you really?
[26:27]I have 17, 11 and nine.
[26:29]So yeah.
[26:30]There's, it's fun, right?
[26:31]Like I think.
[26:32]Yeah.
[26:33]No, I like it.
[26:34]I think it's good.
[26:35]Is this 17 year old, a generous inner?
[26:37]They're juniors, but they're twins.
[26:38]I have two two.
[26:40]Yeah.
[26:41]Yeah.
[26:42]Yeah.
[26:43]My son's a junior too.
[26:44]Yeah.
[26:45]Fun year, huh?
[26:46]He's deaf.
[26:47]He's deaf.
[26:48]I'm funnier.
[26:49]Well, I hate to even like leave this conversation laughing
[26:50]because no, we should.
[26:52]Oh, but no, Zibi, I think we should.
[26:53]I think we should.
[26:54]I think we should.
[26:55]No, and this is what like,
[26:56]I'm sorry to like, I'm not going to be good.
[26:58]Because, okay.
[26:59]So I have the slideshow that I often do in presentations
[27:03]where the last slide is a photograph of my nephews,
[27:07]the grandma's in Krakow, like the party itself.
[27:10]There's a line, there's some food.
[27:12]It's great.
[27:13]And there were people and there was laughter
[27:15]and there were toast and it was joy, there was Jewish joy.
[27:18]In a country that had had so much to us joy for a millennium.
[27:24]And so I think ending with Jewish joy actually is really,
[27:27]really important.
[27:28]And I, that's why I live my life, right?
[27:31]We celebrated my son's promise with dancing and joy.
[27:34]And so I think laughing is good.
[27:36]Like, I'm really into it.
[27:37]Okay.
[27:38]Also, I like to laugh, generally.
[27:40]Great.
[27:41]Okay, and I'm glad we ended it last week.
[27:43]And that is a good point.
[27:44]And that is what we would want.
[27:46]That's what everybody would have wanted to have
[27:48]continued anyway, I think.
[27:50]Yeah, exactly, yeah.
[27:52]Great to meet you.
[27:53]Hope to meet you in person some time.
[27:54]Congratulations on paperback and everything.
[27:58]And delighted to have had the chance to chat with you.
[28:01]Thank you so much, Debbie.
[28:02]Have a great rest of your day.
[28:03]Thank you, YouTube.
[28:05]Okay.
[28:05]Bye-bye.
[28:08]Thanks for listening.
[28:09]To moms, don't have time to read books.
[28:11]If you love it, please leave a review.
[28:12]And follow us on social at city Owens and at city readers.