WICKED-themed: Idina Menzel + Cara Mentzel REPLAY!

[1:36]Zibby Owens: Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books hosted by me, Zibby Owens. It's an award winning podcast with over 1,900 episodes all featuring authors of books you love and those you have yet to discover. Listen daily five times a week. Then go to zippymedia.com and learn more about what the LA Times called the Zippyverse. Zippy Media includes Zippy's Bookshop, an independent bookstore in Santa Monica, Zippy Books Publishing, Zippy Retreats, Zippy's Book Club, and more. Go check it out at zippymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens. It'll take you where you need to go. Thanks for listening. Hi, everybody. This is one of the replay bonus episodes to get you through the holiday season. Maybe you missed some. There have been over 2,000 episodes. We are going into a rebrand where we're going to be changing the name of the podcast from moms don't have time to read books to Zippy's podcast. So that is happening in the New Year. In the meantime, have a listen, enjoy,

[4:38]Zibby Owens: Welcome, Adina and Cara. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books. I'm so thrilled to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. Yes. Thank you. I'm very honored. Aw. Loud Mouse is so gorgeous. The illustrations are amazing, and the story is so inspiring. Tell listeners, why did you two decide to write this book together? And what is this children's book really about at its heart? Yeah, I wasn't sure

[5:04]Idina Menzel: what I wanted to write about for a long time. And it finally dawned on me that I thought I wanted to sort of have this conversation with kids about when I was a little girl, and I knew deep down that I had something special to share, you know, but I wasn't always sure how much space to take up with it and how much to call attention to myself. And And it was scary to make myself vulnerable because like Cara says, when you want to be seen and heard then and it happens and you're really seen and you're really heard. So that elicits a lot of complicated emotions, especially I mean, it still happens for me as an adult, and especially as a child. So when I decided that sort of where I wanted to go, I didn't want to do it on my own. My sister is the writer. She's a teacher. She's specialized in literacy. She's knows me better than anyone in the whole world. And so I didn't wanna do it unless she would do it with me. So then I called her and asked her.

[6:02]Zibby Owens: In Cara's memoir, you talked about how publishers or editors came to you to write a memoir and you said, wanna do it with my sister. And they said, oh, she could be the ghostwriter. And you're like, no, no, no. My sister is no ghostwriter. Like, she's gonna write the whole thing with me or she's not gonna do it. And then she ended up writing the whole book, which is wonderful.

[6:20]Cara Menzel: Yeah. Thank you. That was a huge accomplishment. A whole different game to write a memoir versus a picture book, but so and equally difficult tasks.

[6:31]Zibby Owens: Well, have to say, I also went to a very similar sleepaway camp and I was also in the play and they also did not let my parents come. And I was devastated. Devastated. I was in the diary of Anne Frank, and I was Anne. It was my the only starring role I've had in my life. It's been that was basically it. Age 12. You can either have Anne Frank at, like, Stage Door Manor or French Woods. It wasn't. Although I was I actually just visited French Woods, but it wasn't there. It was an irregular all around camp. And later they were like, well, maybe they just knew you could memorize the lines. And I was like, that is so not nice. I am not an actress. But anyway, I completely related to that moment. Seen a video of myself singing.

[7:09]Cara Menzel: Oh, I think maybe I did mention this in voice lessons, bushel in a pack or take back your mink or whatever it is. And I'm like, this is a strip tease.

[7:20]Idina Menzel: Yeah. You

[7:22]Cara Menzel: think my parents shouldn't see me do this.

[7:25]Zibby Owens: All works out in the end. I was really moved by one moment, Adena, when you heard Cara singing to her child and you realized that she also has this amazing voice. And then you had this moment like, what if I didn't let her star power really shine? And I feel like there's so much of that there. There's a lot in this children's book of one person growing so big and everyone else staying the same size. So maybe you could just talk about that and what it feels like in relation to others when you're, you you talk in the children's book about can a star not shine? Of course not. But the effects of the other stars not shining as brightly, what does that do? And I feel like nobody talks about that. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. That's something we haven't touched on as much today, I think. That

[8:11]Cara Menzel: was one of the special things about the book that we really wanted to try and tackle for sure. Talk about how that was for you.

[8:21]Idina Menzel: Well, I think that's what happens is we hide our gifts, you know, in order we're afraid that, you know, we'll be too much and we'll steal attention from someone else, especially if it's someone like your sister who you want to shine and have her moment. And so I think there's always that kind of navigating that dynamic then, you know, sort of this codependent relationship, you know, then she wants her sister to have she wants me to have these moments, step into the spotlight, you know, while all along, that is somehow complicated for her because she's like, Well, I don't know what I want to do with my life. And my seven year old sister is already dreaming of being on Broadway and got it worked out and she's still figuring it out. That's like, so I think that happens a lot with siblings and even married couples, relationships. It's always about how you know, you always talk about not losing yourself in a relationship, but also being able to learn from the other person and compromise as well. And so is that balance is hard, you know, how do you keep your own identity while also merging with someone else? That's the more grown up version of it. But I think that's also the identity piece of that is really important in Loud Mouse, you know, because it is family.

[9:46]Cara Menzel: It is the people that she's closest to her little sister, her mom, that sort of help her stick to the truth, like find her truth. Right. And I think that's so important because identity is ever evolving. We ask kids all the time, like, just be yourself. You know, that's the solution. Don't try to be, know, just be yourself. Mean, what does that mean? You know, I don't know what that means. I'm still today. I'm a children's book author.

[10:13]Idina Menzel: But five years ago, I was not. That's why I tend to tell people to just go where it feels good, where you feel fulfilled, where it brings you joy, whatever that creative outlet is, you know, for you. And you can't go wrong if you're sort of following your heart in that way and it will lead you somewhere that is your passion, that is the thing you are meant to do, you know. With the exception of the few people that are motivated to go the wrong way. The saboteurs. We've all been that as well, haven't we? Yeah, but that's one thing we you know, I did have bullying kids that may, you know, I think looking back, were probably jealous or competitive and put me down and said, oh, you're showing off. But we actually made a conscious effort to portray the other kids in this book as very supportive and excited by this young girl and her love for singing.

[11:12]Cara Menzel: And that was tricky because I think it's humor and authenticity that kind of drove the writing. So we still wanted to be authentic. But I think it is authentic for kids to be kind. So we wanted that to be modeled. We wanted that to be on the page. But you still have like Wren who does have this huge talent. I mean, he draws this amazing, amazing international space station. It's just a quieter talent. It's just maybe not as fascinating to a class of first graders or whatever.

[11:43]Zibby Owens: One that can be easily wiped off with somebody else's as it says in the book.

[11:48]Cara Menzel: Totally. But and yet, you know, but his identity and how he expresses himself in the world is

[11:56]Idina Menzel: different and will be a different book. You know what I mean? And at risk of being long winded here, what I love about what Cara did was when you're talking about the size of things and how we make each other feel or how we feel in the world and how she always, she has this repetitive theme of walking past the anthill and the buttercups and then the redwoods. And when she's excited, and she's excited to go to school and share her voice, She is getting larger in perspective to what she is is that right? To what she's walking past. And that's how we feel in life. Like we feel tall today, know, it doesn't have to be height, but we just feel that way. Know, how many people tell me when they meet me that they thought I was six feet tall when I was in Wicked because they don't realize I was in all black and I was wearing heels and a black tall pointed witch hat. But it was also because I felt powerful, you know, and I was doing my thing. And then on the way back, when she's feeling really demoralized, she's Sort of shrinking.

[12:54]Cara Menzel: But just in perspective. Yeah. And then when her little sister says, you know, well, you've always been big and loud to me.

[13:01]Idina Menzel: I know it's already sort of,

[13:03]Cara Menzel: using imagery, the size is relative. So for the little sister, big sister is bossy and loud and bigger. And so, yeah, are really important sort of embedded themes that we wanted to have on the page.

[13:19]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Even that the sadness of success, the loneliness factor, because it was a little lonely for her to be so big because she was up there by herself. I don't know. And people don't discuss like, okay, I've got here's my gift and I'm studying my stuff, but where's everybody else?

[13:37]Cara Menzel: Exactly. Exactly. And that there's an educator guide that we that we put together that has like 10 lessons and stuff, and and half of them are really social, emotional learning focused. And one of those lessons that it makes me think of is called Take a Seat. And it's like, kids have to sit in different chairs in the classroom and talk about what they notice or what they feel. One of the seats is like the teacher's chair in front. And this idea that it feels different to be in these different roles in these different positions. Sometimes you feel bigger, sometimes you feel I mean, how do we feel sometimes you go to a kindergarten parent teacher conference and they put you in those teeny chairs and all of a sudden That's always fun.

[14:22]Zibby Owens: It's not that I it makes me feel more slender than those chairs.

[14:26]Cara Menzel: That's so different.

[14:28]Idina Menzel: Yes. Whether it is lonely, I think that's, I mean, I just know that I experienced that. Sometimes in order to have that sort of transcendent experience when you're doing something so pure and for the love of something, it can feel very solitary, because you really have to make yourself completely vulnerable. And there's that fragility. And for me in my life in order to connect, I've learned to really make a connection and to move an audience, so to speak. It only works when I'm when I made myself vulnerable and I took a risk.

[15:06]Zibby Owens: And that can be lonely to do that. Yeah. I would imagine there would be a huge sense of, like, emotional depletement afterwards. Right? How do you Yeah. Get There's a crash change. And then have to rebound. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[18:02]Zibby Owens: I was really struck also, I think it was Kara in your note or somewhere in your book when you said that the two of you come together and you're always there for each other, but that for a while you were seeing each other mostly at family stuff. Like, you can be in touch, but sometimes you don't even see the people you love until not in the fabric of your everyday life anymore because, Adena, you were traveling all the time and you were far farther away. And how do you stay close and maintain those bonds, especially between sisters or best friends or whatever when you are far apart and you do tend to only reunite when something really good or really bad happens? So, like, how do you how do you navigate that?

[18:38]Idina Menzel: Well, we were really lucky during the pandemic. One of the silver linings for us was that Cara relocated to LA and we she rented a house a home nearby with a pool and like a little pool house that we converted into a schoolhouse. Then five mommy friends and I brought our kids over to Kara, dumped them off. And she, what did you do? You connected with the school curriculum and the teachers virtually. And then once the parents knew how great Kara was, we were sort of off and running and off the screens. And it was just so nice to be in the same town. My son developed this wonderful bond with Aunt Kara, which you know, he always loved her. But this is special during that time to have this sort of that these our kids were so free and running outside and learning in a place that felt un suffocating and this one on one experience, you know, they really bonded and that just felt so good to me.

[19:39]Cara Menzel: I loved it because, you know, when he's young and I would see him, it's still like all about mom, you know? And then I have all boys. So then I would see, you know, he gets a little older and I see him, but I'm with Jake or Jake and Avery or Jake, Avery and Oscar, and he wants nothing to do with me. He's got his cousins all around. You know what I mean? And I think also being the son of celebrities too, I never want to be one more person he has to pay attention to or something else on the radar. I just want to be sort of present. So I was never kind of reaching for him in that way. I don't know how to explain that. So organic and he needed you. So it was perfect because it was like, Oh, this I can do. And my whole family was able to pick up and leave because they're

[20:33]Idina Menzel: older. My son was in high school, so he was already remote. This is a testament to you and what a great teacher and human you are. And it's also that he just wanted to get the hell away from me because I was helicoptering. And he just like, did you did you do this assignment yet? Did you do this? Did you do that? You know? She'd take them to the beach and have them creative write in their journals, looking at the ocean, and then take them for ice cream and then they jump in the pool and then they do math, you know? And it was just like, we talk about all the time, my mommy friends and I, about just how it literally saved our sanity.

[21:06]Zibby Owens: That's all that matters. If only I could have dropped my kids there. Exactly. Actually, I have four kids, and my daughter, who's nine, loves to sing but gets very embarrassing in public. And we spent probably an hour straight with her singing your song over and over and over again, the Loudmouth song. And so I recorded it. Can I play you, like, a few seconds of it? Oh my god. I thought you were gonna say let it go. I'm so No. No. No. The new song. Wait. I have to play it for you because we spent so long on it, and she was so excited. Is she okay with you sharing it? Probably.

[21:42]Cara Menzel: She's okay. She's okay with it. I'll just play like Tell her tell her she's more brave than me because I have yet to have the nerve.

[22:37]Idina Menzel: What I love about it is I can hear that she emulated some of the things that I did, but she also made it her own. And to do that at such a young age shows real artistry. Amazing.

[22:48]Cara Menzel: And then she made my day, which this is a pretty big day. So the fact that that topped it, know, it's a lot.

[22:58]Idina Menzel: Well, this is all we've been singing around here. I'll have you go. I'm so sorry, but I'm glad it changed. You know, the set list is changing a little bit.

[23:06]Zibby Owens: It's true. It's true. No, it's really wonderful. You know, the message behind it is so great. The message behind all of it. And it's so empowering for kids who everyone has their own interests. You know? Everybody just they have their things. And it's like, Well, maybe I shouldn't like this or maybe this shouldn't be my thing or whatever. So I didn't say that very well, but it's really empowering to pursue what you love is so important. So anyway, thank you for having that stuck in my head forever. Will be. I'm sorry. It's okay. It's all good. I woke up singing it to my son. He's like, Mom. Okay. Sorry. Anyway, do you two have plans for more children's books together?

[23:47]Idina Menzel: Well, we started writing the sequel already, which I guess in the publishing world, man, they like they don't give you a break. Like, this takes a year, so get on. I'm supposed to be draft ready today. Was like, today? A book release day? Yeah, but it's going to be called Proud Mouse because it focuses on Cara Lee and exactly what we've been talking about and trying to pave her own way and find her own lane in life in the midst of having a very bossy sister who takes up a lot of space.

[24:19]Cara Menzel: But it's, I think it's equally funny and equally endearing. Yeah, it's actually more. Yeah, it's really fun. It's difficult to write children's books. Of course, I knew that it would be, but because there's a simplicity to them, but there's also a sophistication.

[24:40]Idina Menzel: The ones that we grew up loving and the ones that we loved reading to our sons, I think they have to be multi level in their themes and messaging.

[24:51]Cara Menzel: That's just what we were inspired by those books that we loved. Yeah, that's just that kind of nailing that balance is really key and challenging.

[25:02]Zibby Owens: Yeah, I think we did it. You did a great job. It's amazing. I actually wrote a children's book. It's called Princess Charming. It came out from Penguin Random House. Yes, I know that one. Yeah, you do? No. I feel like I've seen yes. Oh, anyway, came out last year. Yeah. People are like, well, is this really hard? And I'm like, it was so hard. But at the end of the day, it's not that many words. I mean, I'm kidding. I mean, wrote a memoir, Kara. It's like. I know, but every word counts. No, it does. I'm totally kidding. I'm kidding. But yes, you do.

[25:31]Cara Menzel: It is a totally different endeavor. I get it. But yes, challenging in a different way. No, it's very challenging. Also, sorry, a children's audience, that's a different attention span that you have to engage. So yes, that's another thing that's different from memoir. Somehow you've got to use a refrain

[25:49]Idina Menzel: to have repetition to pull them back in, to give them access the whole time. There's all these things that you have to do to keep a young mind engaged. I can do. With all the performing I've done in my life and all the high pressure gigs, I'm usually the most nervous when I have to stand up in front of a room full of children. Really? And like, especially, I have this camp foundation called a broader way, which we send girls from the city up to, the country for two weeks. We sing and we dance and we write and we it's all using the arts to help amplify young voices, future leaders, we call them. But whenever I'm asked to come up, so I go up there, but when I'm asked to teach a class, I'm terrified. Because I just, I feel like they see through you so fast if you're not honest and authentic. You know? And it just happened the other day. I was down in North Carolina North Carolina. Yeah. I'm singing in front of 400 little kids, And I was found myself so nervous. Carnegie Hall, no problem. But North Carolina elementary school, wherever I was in Salem, oh my god.

[27:00]Zibby Owens: I'm sure it went well. How did it go?

[27:02]Idina Menzel: That was great. It was great. Just if you engage them and you ask them certain questions, sometimes they raise their hand, but they're not really prepared to answer the question. They just want to talk. And so then they just start talking about things that have nothing to do with what you ask them. So I was just like, okay, let's talk about that. It was very kindergarten

[27:23]Cara Menzel: cop. Remember that Arnold's working Yes, totally. Even though you have a tumor or whatever.

[27:29]Zibby Owens: I would argue that that occasionally happens at grown up book readings as well.

[27:34]Cara Menzel: Yeah. True. Very true.

[27:37]Zibby Owens: You never know. Do you have any advice on all the sisters out there who want to stay in touch or all the best friends and they don't maybe have as good ways to stay in touch or they have to cope with maybe one of them has been more successful than the other and they don't even maybe talk about it or any of that. What do you say to all those people?

[27:59]Cara Menzel: I mean, me, I don't know if it's okay to say this, but I'm atheist. So I had to get really clear about what my values are and what's important to me. And then all my, I try to build all my behavior and make all my choices around what I've decided my values are, you know, so I know that family and relationships are, that's my priority. And my priority is never to be right or to be better or those, my priority is always just to be connected. And I think that makes it really easy to be a cheerleader and really easy to be a protector. And what's the last one when I think of sisterhood? Cheerleader, protector, oh, truth teller, I think a truth teller also, which is, you can't be afraid of telling your sister the truth or that then something's missing. So I don't know if that's advice, but to me, sometimes I have to remind myself what is actually important to me so that I behave in the way that I want to instead of letting I've it happen

[29:12]Idina Menzel: always talked about the role reversal with us. So I might look like the one that's got the glossier life, you know, more attention. But the truth is when it comes down to it, even though she's my younger sister, I look up to her most of the time. She's the one I call for guidance at my worst. She got married younger, had kids younger. So I always feel she's just like always been the old soul, know? And so it doesn't even feel that way so much. I mean, she's the hero to me. She's the one I go to. So I think that's what makes a successful sibling relationships, friend relationships is honoring in each other, you know, what you love about them and the truth telling. I mean, my my friends and my family, my sister, they they're not afraid to tell me when I screw up and when to get real. And, you know, I find in my business, a lot of people surround themselves with, yes, people. And I do I have a lot of no people. A lot of people that are like, no. Get your shit together. But that's the way I prefer it because I want to be a good person. And so I try to surround myself with people that I really look up to.

[30:33]Cara Menzel: Wonderful.

[30:34]Zibby Owens: Well,

[30:35]Idina Menzel: thank you so much both of you for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thanks I'm sure for making my daughter's whole world by commenting on your name. What was your name? Your daughter's name. I try not to say it publicly, not like I'm not interested or anything, but I don't know. Just like don't No, don't say it. No, I was gonna it. I was just thinking first name, but yes, you don't need to say it publicly. No worries. Just let me know thank you. And it's very brave of her to share that. And she sounds I can't wait to hear more things that she does. I just, I really could hear her own style in there, which is really rare for such a young person to have. So tell her to keep searching for that and to emulate but not imitate.

[31:12]Zibby Owens: Love it. Well, honestly, was your book that gave her the bravery to do it. I'm serious. She never would have done it, but you inspired her as you will be inspiring so many other people. Thank you. Love it. Love it so much. All right. Congratulations on the lunch. Okay.

[31:27]Idina Menzel: Thank you. Bye.

[31:31]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social Zippy Owens and at Zippy Readers.