Sarah Hoover, THE MOTHERLOAD: Episodes from the Brink of Motherhood
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[0:44]Sarah Hoover is the author of The Mother Load episodes from the brink of motherhood.
[0:49]Sarah holds a master's degree in cultural theory from Columbia and a BA in art history
[0:54]from NYU.
[0:55]Her writing has been featured in Mother tongue, the strategist, and Vogue.
[0:58]The Mother Load is her first book.
[1:00]Welcome, Sarah.
[1:01]Thanks so much for coming on to discuss your memoir, The Mother Load episodes from the
[1:06]brink of motherhood.
[1:07]Congratulations.
[1:08]Thank you.
[1:09]Thanks for having me.
[1:10]Oh, my gosh.
[1:11]Thank you for this immersive New York art world meets postpartum depression meets mother
[1:19]daughter relationships story.
[1:22]It had so many elements of books that they're just like so many, like if I could make
[1:27]a checklist of things I am particularly into, it would be in your book.
[1:31]Oh, my gosh.
[1:32]I know.
[1:33]It's kind of the kitchen sink, right?
[1:35]Like there, I didn't hold back.
[1:36]You did not hold back.
[1:37]Okay, give listeners like a general overview of the story.
[1:43]Okay.
[1:44]So I had my first child in 2017.
[1:48]I was working in an art gallery at the time, like a large international gallery and had
[1:52]been working there for many years, space in New York, and the birth of my son, like
[1:57]irreparably rocked my world as it does for everyone.
[2:00]But I had a total crisis by identity after he was born and I had a arduous postpartum depression
[2:08]that lasted over a year.
[2:10]And the book is about my struggle reconciling all of that.
[2:14]Like I hadn't, I'm one of three.
[2:16]I had known that I wanted a family, but I had no idea what that really looked like.
[2:21]And I had no idea what a first birth could do to a person and could do to their sense
[2:26]of self and their identity and their entire life.
[2:29]And it just totally shocked me.
[2:31]And it shocked me into this like miserable depression that's sold your for my life.
[2:35]And I just kept thinking to myself, I want to write a book that like I would have been
[2:40]helped by had I read it at any point in that process.
[2:44]And I just kind of like couldn't not write the book, you know?
[2:47]I felt really cold to it.
[2:48]So it just kind of like poured out and because it's true and it's about my life.
[2:54]I ended up also being a story of my marriage and my relationship with my mom, which
[2:59]I think are kind of like universal things that mothers struggle with because once you have
[3:05]a kid and you realize how you want to parent and of course, as you'd analyze how your
[3:09]own mother parent did.
[3:10]So yeah, I bring in a lot of other things that I feel like we all kind of grapple with.
[3:15]But the stories primarily about my most part of depression and anxiety.
[3:18]But I do that.
[3:20]You did that great.
[3:21]That was amazing.
[3:22]Yes.
[3:23]I know, right?
[3:24]Especially when it's your life.
[3:25]I know.
[3:26]Yeah, exactly.
[3:27]It's asking about my memory.
[3:28]I'm like, uh, how do I sound seven a sentence?
[3:30]Like this is my life.
[3:31]Welcome to my life.
[3:32]I'll try to make it free, but give me some grace since I'm living it still exactly.
[3:40]It's a revolving.
[3:41]Well, let's talk about your marriage because that is an element of the book, which is
[3:45]front and center.
[3:46]And you go through many different phases.
[3:48]I actually really, questions actually, I really appreciated towards the end.
[3:52]And I feel like I don't want to give things away, but I don't know if it's okay and
[3:56]remember, but whatever.
[3:57]You have sort of a decision making moment in the marriage and you can friend or not consult
[4:03]your two friends who have been like supporting characters in the in the narrative all along.
[4:09]And in this instance, they give you some perspective that we as the reader don't have either
[4:14]because we're in it with you, which is, you know, from the outside what it was like
[4:19]to be friends with you or to be married to you or whatever when you were going through
[4:22]this horrible depression and didn't necessarily know what to do or have it treated properly
[4:26]or whatever.
[4:27]So I thought that scene was so important to the book.
[4:31]And I feel like it changed sort of how you were thinking of things as well.
[4:35]So maybe just talk about the trajectory of that and maybe your friends input and how
[4:40]friends can help or hurt a relationship.
[4:42]You know, I don't know if other people experience this, but like, especially in my 20s
[4:48]before I had kids before I felt like, I don't know, like I had as much of a voice as
[4:53]I do now.
[4:55]I was always, I had like so much shame and so much embarrassment about how men treated
[5:01]me and what I was so desperate for a relationship always.
[5:05]I was like so desperate for male validation.
[5:07]Even when I felt secure in my career and secure in my integrity in the way I treated
[5:13]people and other things about myself, like, I just always really wanted like a man to
[5:19]love me.
[5:21]And I thought that I hid that well, but looking back, I think that it was so parents.
[5:26]And then I let so much behavior side because of that sort of desperation.
[5:31]And I obviously would have made so much better dating choices that I not had that
[5:34]desperation.
[5:35]Like, you know, my life, my trajectory would have been really different.
[5:39]I always thought that I was like, I was for winning actress who no one could tell was like
[5:45]secretly had my feelings hurt all the time.
[5:48]And when I reached the sort of turning point in my marriage after I had a kid where I had,
[5:53]I just didn't have capacity to raise a child and also feel like I had to deal with a husband
[5:59]who wasn't totally on my level and wasn't reading me the way I wanted to be treated.
[6:05]For years, I was willing to put up with any sort of love I could get.
[6:10]And then I got to the point where I was just like, I actually can't manage any emotional
[6:15]crisis that doesn't have to happen.
[6:17]And if my husband isn't supporting me exactly how I want to be supported, I'd, my brain's
[6:22]not capable.
[6:23]Like, I'm not smart enough to handle that and drop my kid off at school on time.
[6:26]Like, I don't, I don't have that ability.
[6:29]And I have to, the thing that I was willing to cut was my marriage.
[6:33]I was like, I got to the point where I was like, this isn't like an ultimatum for
[6:36]strategic purposes or for manipulative purposes, but like, I think I'm done.
[6:41]I think I'd rather just be single than have to like deal with a man baby or whatever.
[6:46]And I thought that I had hidden all the dark times so well from my friends and they were
[6:50]like, no, no, no, like we saw it.
[6:52]You're not fooling us.
[6:53]And also kind of every woman I knew was in the same boat as me.
[6:57]Like we were all sort of putting up with BS from men because we were just so grateful to
[7:03]have a man be interested in us.
[7:05]And like, we lives, you and I live sort of different New York City lives.
[7:10]But I think like something that probably happens to all of us here is that like your,
[7:18]your friends see you in public with your partner and put a lot of happens behind closed
[7:23]doors, you know?
[7:25]And I was surprised that they picked up on as much that was going on behind the scenes
[7:29]as they had, but they were just sort of like calling me out too and saying, you know,
[7:34]you're not, you haven't been easy to deal with.
[7:37]And like, you should expect more from your partner.
[7:40]You should get the relationship that you want, but you also have to be willing to like
[7:46]see your own part and why things maybe aren't going the way you want them to.
[7:49]And I feel like I'm being really abstract because I don't want to do anything to expect.
[7:54]No, no, I think, I mean, it's it's sort of heartbreaking to hear you say that because
[7:59]it's so true.
[8:00]Like, there is a fundamental need in all of us to be loved.
[8:05]I mean, that is a very human fundamental need and from an evolutionary perspective.
[8:11]Essential so that we can keep her species going, you know, it's ingrained.
[8:16]And I also like, I remember in my 20s being like, I just want a nice boyfriend just like
[8:21]one time.
[8:22]Can I just have a nice boyfriend?
[8:23]But like, unfortunately, the culture that I was dating in like was not respectful to women.
[8:27]I think I followed like younger influencers and stuff who talked about dating New York
[8:32]now.
[8:33]And I think things have shifted because women feel so much more empowered, but like in
[8:37]the early odds, I didn't experience life that way.
[8:40]I was just always, I was always like chasing someone.
[8:44]I always just wanted someone to pay attention to me, which is not a good way to date.
[8:48]We're going to get treated the way you should be treated.
[8:51]And when I looked around, like the women around me were dealing with the same thing.
[8:55]So I didn't think to myself, like, oh, you're doing this wrong.
[8:58]I was doing it the way everyone else was doing it.
[9:00]We were all getting ghosted.
[9:01]We were all getting like, you know, groped at bars and whatever.
[9:04]It was the culture of the time.
[9:07]Yeah.
[9:08]Yeah.
[9:09]Dark days.
[9:10]There's also an easy excuse, not excuse, but it's always, and a friend just said this to
[9:15]me yesterday, you know, when I was asking her, has everything in your marriage, whenever
[9:18]like we're really close, and she was like, you know, it's fine.
[9:21]And then she was like, you know, I look at all these other terrible guys and I'm like,
[9:24]everything's fine.
[9:25]Right.
[9:26]Like there's a way it's like the self protective instinct that like, well, it looks, you
[9:31]know, at least he's not that guy.
[9:33]I mean, the thing is, like, it's like the double you know.
[9:38]And I also part of my depression was that I like lumped my husband in with every bad man
[9:44]I had ever met.
[9:45]I was incapable of teasing out the ways that he had like hurt me or that I had felt
[9:51]disrespected in our relationship with him from like the really bad guys who groped me
[9:57]in bars.
[9:58]I was just, I was so mad at that.
[10:00]world and so filled with rage, which is obviously like a protective instinct to cover up
[10:04]serious trauma and grief. But I hated everyone. So I lumped him in with all of that. And I just
[10:11]wasn't capable of getting to a place where I could be like, we need to have a really
[10:15]honest conversation and like reset the boundaries of our marriage and reset what we wanted to look
[10:20]like for each other. I just hated him. And like rage, I actually think is part of like a lot of
[10:27]women. I think that's how they're post-hardened depression manifests itself and they don't
[10:30]understand that. They just, it's like confusing because you do have reasons to be mad.
[10:36]It's really hard being a new mom, you know? There's a lot to feel is unjust. And so I would like
[10:42]feel really upset and mad about things and be like, but I'm right, like I'm not wrong. I kept thinking
[10:47]to myself like this is a rational response to a completely irrational thing that just happened to
[10:52]me. I'm not the crazy one. Everyone else is crazy for not saying what I'm saying. But I wasn't capable
[10:57]of like finding new ones in that or teasing out the different threads of it. You referenced
[11:02]your past trauma and in the book, you reference it throughout. Can you talk a little bit about that
[11:08]or do you feel comfortable? Oh, I feel more than comfortable. It's like, it's actually like scary
[11:13]how easy it is for me these days. But yeah, I mean, like everyone, I've had like layers of trauma
[11:18]throughout my life once things that I knew messed me up and things that I discovered along the way,
[11:24]that actually messed me up more than I thought, you know? Something that was like strongly dramatic
[11:29]and that really I think played into the postpartum depression in particular was how dramatic my
[11:34]birth was for me. And I have like imposter syndrome even saying that because everyone's like,
[11:40]oh, did you have an emergency C section? Oh, did you have pre-plamps yet? Oh, this, I'm like, no,
[11:45]like nothing went wrong. And it was still so freaking scary. Like I felt my doctor wasn't nice to me.
[11:53]She made me feel bad when I told her things hurt. And then I was scared. She like kind of gassed
[11:58]with me. I told her that she broke my water after I have been given photos of him before I had
[12:05]any form of being really like an epidural. And it hurt like it just did. I don't know why. I know
[12:11]I've learned since that, you know, your placenta doesn't have nerve endings in it. I can't
[12:15]explain, but it was a terrifying experience for me. And it physically hurt. And it left me like
[12:21]shaking and gasping for air. And I screamed. It was out of my control. And she looked at me and she said,
[12:28]I don't know why you're crying. I've done this like two other times this week and no one else
[12:32]complained. And it just like broke me because I felt like this person who I thought was there to
[12:40]keep me safe was not actually concerned with my safety. She just like wanted to get the job done
[12:46]and wanted to get the baby out, but didn't care what that did to me in between. And I had gone
[12:52]in terrified. Like I had gone in thinking something horrible could happen. Like I was already a little
[12:58]bit depressed in my pregnancy looking back. And one of the ways that depression and anxiety
[13:04]manifests for me is like extreme superstition. I don't know why I just got a thumbs up when I said
[13:08]that because let me tell you extreme superstition doesn't get you anywhere. And I was already
[13:12]like I could die today and I was freaked out by everything. And just the way that I was treated
[13:17]and labor and deliberate, it really really broke me. Like I went into some sort of medical shock,
[13:23]which I'm not naming it that like I've had that confirmed by doctors and therapists subsequently.
[13:28]And when it was time to actually push and the baby came out, I was just so shut down and so scared
[13:35]and so desensitized that I like couldn't find any emotion for him or curiosity or love or
[13:43]anything. And I had expected like a fireworks display and inside my brain. And I didn't get that.
[13:49]And when that didn't happen, I was like, I think I'm not suited for this and I'm horrible at being
[13:54]a mom. And I'm not, this is a natural for me. And like I'm from Midwest, from Indiana. And I was
[14:03]like I really just don't fit the ideal that I grew up with thinking I was supposed to turn into.
[14:09]I'm like a bad mom and a bad woman if I can't even love my newborn. And that trauma that trauma
[14:16]and birth, it also like it reminded me of other violations. I felt in my life like reminded me of
[14:22]what it felt like to be suspected by men. So it was really triggering. And it really messed me up.
[14:28]for it's like the catalyst for a postpartum depression that was like borderline, I was hearing voices
[14:36]thinking my baby cried when he didn't, you know, eventually suicidal. And of course,
[14:42]like any mental illness, like it was a combination of things that wasn't just that
[14:47]delivery. It was many things and layered on top of each other. But like that moment was when
[14:53]the wheels totally came off. I'm so sorry. You know what, thank you. But like, I get to
[15:01]talk to women about this now as a job. That's such a dream. Like I will never tire of hearing
[15:09]women's birth stories and getting to like talk to you and have these conversations. It was like,
[15:16]it feels like a calling. And I don't think I would have gotten there, it got hadn't happened.
[15:21]And it sucks. But it also feels like it gets. Well, that's a really wonderful way to look at it.
[15:26]I mean, it's very healthy. Your therapist would be happy with that in the first month.
[15:32]A lot of time with her. So yeah, you should bring that back as progress made.
[15:38]You know, you could feel your resistance. I mean, you were quite open about it about
[15:44]how you you should have ambivalence about being pregnant even from the start. And then
[15:48]how you couldn't quite wrap your mind around the fact that you were having a baby. And you're like,
[15:52]oh, okay. Well, it's time that I have this highlights appointment. And I'm not going to skip that.
[15:58]And the doctor's like, no, no, you're putting your baby at risk. And you're like, right,
[16:01]I know, but just my roots. And it's like delusional. I mean, I'll tell you how like I was already out of
[16:09]body, you know, yeah, no, just, but I'm so glad you put some of these things in because people don't
[16:16]often want to share things about themselves. Not that that's bad. I'm just joking. It's like one
[16:21]thing. But the book is a whole people often want to present a very scrubbed, lovely version of
[16:30]themselves. In fact, it's essential to their sort of self image and who they are. And they're
[16:36]attempts at, you know, peace and stability and all of that. But you just go there in every way
[16:43]showing the things you're not proud of, showing the things you are proud of, showing like
[16:47]physical things and things that are out of our control as women and things that I mean, you just
[16:53]like run the gamut here. So I have a lot of respect and memoirists do that because that is what the
[16:59]form calls for to really connect, right? But was that was that hard for you at all where there's
[17:05]some pieces that you wanted to keep closer to the vest or some things you decided not to include
[17:11]and has there been any blowback from people in your life as a result? Yeah. Okay. So I made a decision
[17:17]when I started writing the book and I was like, I'm not going to lie. Like I'm not going to
[17:22]not share parts of my things that I'm ashamed of because otherwise this is like a futile
[17:28]exercise. I feel that I sort of voted to the story. And also I have learned for myself that when I'm
[17:36]honest about things that I have shame about like my looks or I don't know, like we should probably
[17:42]have gotten a nose job when I'm 16, whatever. It like takes away the power of that shame. And it
[17:48]makes me more comfortable with those things that I have long perceived as being wrong with me.
[17:53]So I just made the decision. I was like, I'm just going to talk about everything that brings
[17:58]me shame. I understand why people don't want to do that. Like the internet is vicious and it's
[18:03]really, really vulnerable. And like I'm terrified for my book to be out there. But I also was like,
[18:09]I don't really have a choice. I don't want to do this any other way. And if people hated or hate me
[18:14]because of that, like at least it's me. At least I know that I was emotionally, I can stand behind
[18:19]every feeling, every moment of shame that I put into that book. It's true. And like, I don't know,
[18:28]I don't think anyone's ever like wrong for being true to who they are, you know. But
[18:33]every of my husband, my mom, although like main characters of the book have read it and have read
[18:39]many drafts and have read this back in the day. And like, I feel really fortunate because everyone
[18:44]in my life, you know, I told my experience of interacting with them in this story, truthfully too,
[18:52]so like when there's truth is exposed. And I feel really fortunate that everyone who has read
[18:58]it has been like, really just glad for me that I got to tell my tale. And like, my husband was like,
[19:04]you can make me sound worse than I am if you need to. Like whatever suits the story. You know,
[19:08]like they've, everyone's been really supportive of that endeavor and really kind of happy for me
[19:13]that because it's obviously been very therapeutic. I mean, I have been in a lot of therapy
[19:19]before I just started writing. I had kind of like mastery of the trauma already. It's not like
[19:23]that was, it's not a journal, you know, it's, but I think like the people who are closest to me
[19:28]have been like, I'm just really glad that you were able to turn this trauma into something that
[19:33]might help other people and don't hold back on the kind of bus, it's kind of been everyone's
[19:38]vibe, which is really generous. That is wonderful. I'm really glad to hear that. That's
[19:44]I felt so bad for your sister at different points in the book too, you know, with what she had to
[19:48]to go through. Oh my gosh. Anyway, yeah, that's my worst case scenario, you know, yeah. And like,
[19:53]once you've seen the story of it is a sibling of mine that had a sober and the...
[20:00]Once you've seen that and you know that that's like when that happens. I had no idea
[20:04]I thought like people had miscarriages and that's awful
[20:08]But I didn't know like it's over a full term. Maybe I had no idea was a possibility
[20:14]I know that sounds stupid, but like I had never seen it in a movie
[20:18]I had never read it in a book if I had it. I probably thought it was fictional and
[20:23]Once you know that that's a possibility. It's really hard to go into once you see that firsthand
[20:30]It's really hard to have your own
[20:32]Baby without thinking that that like without knowing that that might happen to you and the statistics
[20:37]I think it's like one out of 100% in a late term silver. It's not
[20:41]One in a hundred. Oh my god. I think it's one of the hundred. She is
[20:45]Yeah, I hear about it so rarely, but anyway, thank you for including that as well
[20:50]Anything that you felt like was too personal. Is there anything you left out? Oh, okay. Well, I did it talk about much about my sex life
[20:59]And I don't think it was like conscious at the time that I was writing it, but it makes me want to write another book
[21:08]It's so hard, you know, like usually when you read it, you're like, oh, this is gross
[21:13]So like this doesn't apply to me or whatever. It's a really like Sally Rooney just so
[21:17]Beautifully and there you know, there are people who are nice and whatever there are people who nail it
[21:21]Well, like I think I didn't feel like I could nail it and also like my dad's gonna read this and my mom
[21:27]So I think I have like shied away from it, but it doesn't make me want to write another book. Interesting
[21:34]How old is Guy now?
[21:36]He's seven. He's a big boy, but I had a baby about seven months ago
[21:41]My second took me a long time. We get there, you know
[21:44]I had to write this book and then I ended up having to do
[21:47]I've yeah to have her so I have a seven-year-old and a seven-month-old at the same time
[21:51]Which is kind of funny and feel like not that common. I have that age gap too, by the way
[21:55]Do you really tell me I have twins now who are 17 and then I have an 11-year-old and a 10-year-old
[22:03]How do you have 17-year-old twins?
[22:05]Yeah, I don't know. I'm not planning
[22:07]It just happened. It's just one day after another and now all of a sudden they're like turning 18 this summer
[22:11]Yeah, I know it's crazy, but yeah, I actually love the gap now. I love it. It's so great. I have no choice
[22:17]But I love how
[22:20]Much perspective I have going into this
[22:23]Pregnancy this birth and now having this baby at home like it's just so different
[22:29]Because I know that at the end of the most sleepless heart is night whatever that I get the relationship
[22:34]I now with my son. Yep. It's a totally different like when I went into it the first time
[22:39]I was just like this is my life now and it's never gonna change and I'm never sleeping again
[22:44]And I will never find happiness and I don't even feel love for this baby that like God forbid
[22:49]Anything bad happened to you that will crush me in a different way
[22:52]But like I can't believe that I built that I made this happen and it took away everything that I loved for my life
[22:57]I couldn't work. I couldn't think right. I couldn't see my friends and go to parties
[23:01]It took away my freedom all this stuff, but like now I'm like even in the worst part of having a little newborn or whatever
[23:07]I get another chance
[23:10]I get another little him someday, and I'm so excited because like he's my best friend, you know
[23:14]There's like no one I would rather spend time with ever in the history of the world
[23:18]It's like sorry mom, but
[23:21]That kid is my everything and like I get another one. I feel so freaking lucky
[23:25]That's when you get it your mom. I totally get it
[23:29]That's when we get it and I also did not want that much time in between
[23:31]But this is the way the world works sometimes. So they really yeah, there you go. Right. See lots of benefits
[23:37]Now that this is the way it's played out
[23:39]okay
[23:40]four new moms out there or
[23:43]for
[23:44]grandparents who have a you know have a daughter or a daughter-in-law
[23:49]Who's just had a baby or have they have a new baby in the family?
[23:52]Like how can the loved ones of new moms be most supportive and like what do you want the new moms to know?
[23:58]Okay, I think for loved ones like if you're talking specifically about the Spartan Depression
[24:03]I would have gone to the ends of the earth to never let anyone know that I was depressed right like if anyone else
[24:09]So I was I was like full in the end of cheerleader all the time like great everything's wonderful
[24:13]I love my baby like
[24:15]Though I don't think anyone's gonna like straight off tell you that they're depressed
[24:18]I feel like it's women's
[24:20]Default to just people like but I think and this is like unrealistic because of the way health care set up in our country
[24:26]Obviously, but I think like every pregnant person should be in therapy
[24:29]It is it's the first time especially because it's just such a drastic change to your life and it's so limiting and it's so
[24:35]It's nerve-wracking and it's really hard when you're like in a depression to know that you're in it
[24:40]Why you're going through it, right?
[24:41]So I think being in therapy is great and and postpartum too
[24:44]But for people in your family like I think if they sense that something's wrong, it likely is wrong
[24:50]You don't have to have a lot of postpartum depression to have it really mess with your life
[24:54]Like you don't have to get to the point where I got to have it being incredibly disruptive and
[24:59]Unhappy mothers cannot be good mothers. They can be like trying as hard as they can be
[25:04]But it requires joy and humor
[25:08]To be to really excel at being a parent and you just can't have those things if you're depressed
[25:12]You know and so I think if you're like looking at someone and they seem different and they seem unwell
[25:17]And they seem like they're hiding something or thinking it at all
[25:20]Like it's likely way worse beneath the surface that person needs help and there's so much help out there
[25:25]Like I was really resistant to going on meds and I finally did and I felt better in like three days
[25:31]It was incredible. It was like I had such a stigma about them. You know, and it was so easy once I finally
[25:38]Could admit to myself that something was wrong
[25:39]So I think for like family members and close friends just really keeping an eye on people and knowing that they likely won't be fully up front
[25:47]You're full
[25:49]For pregnant women themselves like something that really helped me was complaining
[25:54]Because for a long time I was afraid to complain and I was like
[25:57]I don't know. I mean I feel like complaining is almost like
[25:59]Gender the way like nagging is or something or like as a woman you feel guilty about it
[26:04]Certainly as a woman with like like I'm so lucky. I have a you know resources in my life and I felt
[26:11]Very guilty about complaining, but like actually it's really really good to not be ashamed of
[26:18]That things aren't going right for you and that something doesn't sit right for you and like you have to be able to put words to those things
[26:24]So just like being like I'm gonna complain. I'm not gonna be embarrassed and I'm not gonna like shut my mouth because I feel rude
[26:30]It was really
[26:31]The first step to get me to be like wow, I'm complaining a lot
[26:35]I should probably go to therapy. Wow my therapist thinks I'm depressed. I should probably consider that to you know like become double back
[26:40]So like you're allowed to complain. It's okay. I love that
[26:44]Sarah, thank you so much for coming on to discuss the mother load
[26:48]Congratulations on the bug. I wish you all the best with your launch and everything that comes and I will be following along
[26:56]Awesome, so nice to meet you. I'm really honored to be here. Thank you for having me my pleasure. All right. Bye
[27:02]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone have time to read books
[27:07]If you loved the show tell a friend leave a review follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and
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