Sarah Mlynowski, UPSIDE-DOWN MAGIC and WHATEVER AFTER series

[1:34]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens. Hi, everybody. This is one of the replay bonus episodes to get you through the holiday season. Maybe you missed some. There have been over 2,000 episodes. We are going into a rebrand where we're going to be changing the name of the podcast from moms don't have time to read books to Zibby's podcast. So that is happening in the New Year. In the meantime, have a listen, enjoy, and let me know what you think. Bye. Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and this is moms don't have time to read books. As a mom of four kids in New York City and a writer myself, I know all too well how short everyone is on time. So I'm here to help. I'm going to interview authors and writers of all types about their work, especially as it relates to parenting and family issues. Hopefully, can listen while doing 8,000,000 other things and fall in love with these talented scribes and their fantastic books, essays, songs like I have, plus get some tips on surviving parenthood. For more about me, you can check out my essays at zippyowens.com. Today's episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books is sponsored by Chloe's Fruit, the cool way to eat fruit. You can check them out at chloe'sfruit.com. I'm really excited to be with Sarah Malnowski today. Sarah is an amazingly prolific best selling young adult middle grade novelist. She was born in Canada and now lives here in New York City. For anyone listening with school age children who might have heard a lot about Abby and Jonah's Adventures, Sarah is the author of the addictive Whatever After book series. The latest release, which I just finished with my daughter, is called Two Peas in a Pod. Sarah also writes the Upside Down Magic series about wonky magicians who are flickers, flares, and flexors and just can't seem to get their magic right. As if that weren't enough, Sarah has written a Magic in Manhattan series for teens, which started with a book called Bras and Broomsticks. And she has written a few late teenage books, like 10 Things We Did and Probably Shouldn't Have, which I can't put down even though I'm not a teenager, and a few adults for a few adult novels for adults as well, not adult novels. In her spare time when she's not on a book tour, Sarah goes to schools and gives forty five minute presentations that inspire kids to write. And she's a wife and a mom herself. So welcome to Sarah. Thank you for having me. Okay. Your bio is insane. It took me twenty minutes to count up all the books you've written on your website. I counted 35, if that's right? That seems about right. How and when are you writing all of these books?

[4:39]Sarah Mlynowski: Writing for me is a full time job. So I'm in the office every day from nine to five, and I'm working on books and I'm writing and I'm producing. And I've been doing that for probably since the year 2,000 now. So that's how I've produced so many books. Okay. So eighteen years of 30 So two a year about, you've been doing? Two to three a year. When I wrote Adult, which is what I started off doing, started with one book a year. And then now that I write for middle grade readers, they're much, much shorter, so I could produce more. So I probably now write between three and four a year. Amazing.

[5:16]Zibby Owens: Thank you. And on your website, in your FAQs, which were fantastic, so detailed, was like, I don't even need to ask her anything today. I can just read this website. You say you mostly write from your desk at home because you don't wanna be distracted.

[5:30]Sarah Mlynowski: Is that what you do or do you Clearly, need to update my FAQs because I have an office now. I've had an office for the past, probably a year and a half. And it's about 20 blocks from my apartment. And I walk there and I do like a little bit of a closed door situation so I could focus on the writing. But so much of my day is not just writing. It's also changing my FAQs, hopefully, or doing promotion stuff. There's so many different things that I do all day. But I do try to get a certain amount of words written every day. Do you have a word goal? My goal, when I'm actually doing the writing, is probably about 2,000 words. But I also am heavy outliner. So, before I even start a project, I probably write about a 20 to 30 page outline and break up the book by chapter by chapter so I know exactly what's going to happen. And that's where I do most of my work. So that when I'm writing the first draft, I'm almost on autopilot. I just kinda get in there and I know what's gonna happen. So I never waste time with writer's block because I always know what's gonna happen next. Do you ever have outline block? No. I don't find outlines that hard. So maybe because I divide it up. Like that, really don't. I just get in there and I work on the outline and I play with things. It seems less scary for me when it's just in an outline stage because I know the outline doesn't have to be perfect. At first, it has to just be a first draft and then I you know, first draft of an outline and then I flesh it out. So, really, the way I've written so many books is I make really manageable goals for myself. I never sit down and think, Okay, today I have to write a full book. Right. It's always there. Today I have to work on, you know, a page of the outline and figure out the first three chapters in the book. And then, once I've done the whole outline, and I usually send it to my editor to approve it, then I, you know, go in and I'll say, Today, I'm gonna write one chapter of the first draft. So, I really, really set small goals for myself.

[7:23]Zibby Owens: That's awesome. Actually, I'm interviewing tomorrow Charles Duhigg, who just wrote a book on how to be productive. That's exactly what he said. Yeah. So more on that later. Stay tuned. And when you sit down to write the outline, you already have the general idea of what you want the book to be in Yes. Your Absolutely. So, I always have

[7:40]Sarah Mlynowski: the concept from the beginning. So, for the Whatever After series, I'll figure out first, I'll say I'll think, you know, what fairy tale am I gonna do? What am I gonna mess And then, I usually have a scene in my head, kind of like a set piece of what is, how they twist the story. So, in this series, Abby and her brother, Jonah, fall into different fairy tales. In every book, they fall into another one and then they mess it up somehow in some pivotal moment of the story. So, in the new one, in Two Peas in a Pod, Abby goes into the story of The Princess and the Pea, and she doesn't know she's in The Princess Bee right away. And she's offered to sleep over at this palace, and there are 100 mattresses, and she realizes that she's in that story. But then, of course, when she climbs onto a bed of 100 mattresses, she cannot fall asleep because she's terrified of rolling over, as any human child would be. -Right. -So, I had that image in my head of just lying in bed on 100 mattresses, being terrified and not being able to sleep all night. And then, of course, because she can't fall asleep, they think she's the princess the next day. So I always have that one scene in my head, and then I'll go from there. I'll think about, like, also what I want to change in the original fairy tale. So once I have those two points, I'm able to weave the story together. I love how Jonah was like, why are you more afraid to fall up up high as down low? You never fall out of your bed normally. It's Right. The same side. Right? I was like, yeah.

[9:04]Zibby Owens: But I would still be terrified. Yeah. No. I love how you have everybody go back in time and change things. It's like Bill and Ted's adventure, like, Back to the Future where you're like, no. No. You know, everything you know? Yes. For sure. So what's with all the magic in all your books? So you have, obviously, the Whatever After where you change fairy tales, the Upside Down Magic series, which my son I couldn't even read your latest book because he grabbed it from my hands. And he was so excited to read it and, like, wouldn't put it down, which, obviously, you know, so many kids are just obsessed with both series in so many different ways. How did you start spinning magic through all these different books? It's like magic is its own character. Well, you know, it's interesting because my first

[9:45]Sarah Mlynowski: four books were for adults and they had no magic. They were very realistic fiction. They were in the chick lit genre that was back in the February. And then I had this idea for a magic series. I wanted to write about a girl who finds out that her little sister is a witch and that she is not. And I just had that small idea and I thought, oh, you know what? Magic is kind of fun if I set it in a real world with just a twist of magic. So, that's how I started playing with magic in my writing. And then, yeah, it's built up. Every book, every series I write has more and more magic. Whatever After is completely in the fairy tale world, so there's tons of magic. Upside Down Magic is a series set in magic school. So I definitely have increased the magicness of my novels.

[10:31]Zibby Owens: But I didn't necessarily set out to do that. It just kind of happened little by little. Do you think that the characters in Upside Down Magic could sort of take on the Harry Potter comics?

[10:40]Sarah Mlynowski: I think they would probably lose. And the whole thing about Upside Down Magic is that the kids are it's about a series where it's a world where everyone gets magic powers when he or she turns 10. But Nori, the main character, her magic is a little bit wonky. It's upside down. So, she's a flexor, which means she can turn into different animals. But because her magic is wonky, she instead of turning into a cat, she turns into a kitten with a little bit of dragon in it. So, she's a her magic is wonky. So she's sent to a school and to begin a class with other kids who also have upside down magic. So, these kids in her class are all a bit wonky. Their magic is all a little bit off. And I think that's what really inspired us to write that story. And I say us because I co write that series with two of my good friends who are also novelists, Emily Jenkins and Lauren Myrickall. And we really wanted to write a series where, you know, what if you get to go to magic school, but then you discover that your magic is not as great as everyone else's or it doesn't work in the same way? And, you know, we wanted to write about the kid who has magic, but their magic is not the best. And what does that mean? And so that's why I think they may have some problems against daddy.

[11:53]Zibby Owens: I love the image of one of the boys hitting the roof repeatedly of the school bus because his magic makes him have to fly up or something. Yes. Andres. Yes. That's funny. So your teen fiction is also amazing. I feel like you're Judy Blum meets Sophie Kunkel. Oh, I love that comparison. Just talking about your voice is, like, just super relatable and spot on. But you're way out of your teens. No offense. I feel like we're like the same age here. How do you write so well from that vantage point when you're not in it? Do you go out and talk to teens to pick up on how they speak or what social media they use? Like, how do you stay relevant, especially with such a hard to please insular audience? I mean, do find it more challenging the older I get. I'll be honest. When I started off writing, I was in my twenties, and it was much easier for me to channel that teenage voice.

[12:46]Sarah Mlynowski: But I still try. I just try to, in my head, be still the 17 year old that I was and try to write about those emotions because slang and everything is going to change every year, but angst is angst and the emotions are constant. So that's really what I try to tap into when I'm writing for teens. I do definitely read a lot of social media and just try to make sure that I stay current. But you don't want to stay too current when you're writing for teens terms of the language because that comes in and out. And I wrote Brows and Broomsticks, my first teen book, a decade ago. And I remember talking about one song. There's like a Britney Spears song that no one listens to at this point. So, you you to try to

[13:29]Zibby Owens: not be too current in your language or descriptions. I saw on your website, you're like, You can find me on, you know, not just Twitter and Instagram. Like, the things you could find you on, I've never even heard of. Like, what are these things? How is she on these things? What are they? You know, I joined Myspace earlier on. That's actually how I met Emily Jenkins and Lauren Myrickle.

[13:47]Sarah Mlynowski: They're my two Okay. Myspace co writers. We met on Myspace on this teen lit group, which I don't even Does Myspace still exist? I'm I'm not sure. Think so. So, that's how we even met. So, I think I've always definitely been trying to stay current about what are the new technologies and what teenagers are on. But, yeah, you have to try new things. Some things I love and stick to right away. Like, I still, you know, I do a lot of I tweet a lot and I'm on Instagram a lot and I'm on Facebook. And some I haven't necessarily figured out. I mean, I still can't figure out Snapchat fully. I know so many teenagers who are on it, but it just doesn't work for me. So, I try to just use the ones that I enjoy. That makes sense. My daughter asked me to ask you, How do you name all of your characters? Having pawed through all these books, you have so many different characters. Have I named anyone the same thing? That's my Not only word that I is that your rule? Like, never do the same twice? I try not to. At one point, I think it was in the fourth Magic of Manhattan book, my editor noted that I had another Chloe. And also, that all of my last names ended with Ski or Berg or something. And I was thinking, Oh, I may have been going through my yearbook. Went to a Jewish school, so I was going through my yearbook and pick out names and kind of twist them up. So, definitely try to be aware of that. But I Let's see. Well, whatever after was a funny story because when I came up with the concept, I called it Farrah's Tales. And her name was Farrah. But then my editor felt that Farrah sounded a bit dated and she wanted something a little bit more modern. So I changed the title of the series to Carrie Tales, and her name was Carrie. But depending where you are in the country, you're gonna pronounce Carrie differently. So, then, one the people at Scholastic was named Abby, so I thought, Well, what if we call it Abby Ever After? I like the way that sounded. And that her name became Abby, and then we changed the series name to Whatever After. But at that point, I was sick of changing her name, so I left it as Abby. And the name Jonah just kinda came to me. I don't remember why. Maybe it was someone's kid or something that I said, oh, that's a nice name, and I just used it. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[18:41]Zibby Owens: Excellent. In Two Peas in a Pied, when you rewrite the Princess and the Pea fairy tale, you talked a lot about the qualities you felt like were important in a princess, that you didn't want the princess, like in the old fairy tale, to just be a flower who, you know Right. Can't even sleep on a pea, but instead has, you know, strength and is also kind and brave. And you show these examples of different girls who are all finalists in the contest exhibiting all of these great traits. Are you trying to take on sort of the Disney princess vibe here and show what you think women and princesses ought to be? Is this some sort of big message? Or was it just fun for that part of that book? I mean,

[19:19]Sarah Mlynowski: it's not even the Disney princess vibe. That's in the original story. The pea, sleeping on the pea and making the No. I mean, take on the story. You know that But I think that for me, it's my take on just the whole fairy tale world all the fairy tales. Because if you reread the original fairy tales, my characters always fall into the original fairy tales and not the Disney movie because I don't want Disney to sue me. Because I always write the That's in public domain. So my characters always fall into the original fairy tale. And often, the ending of the original fairy tales are also pretty troubling. Like, the fact that that's how they found a princess, they just they wanted to choose a princess based on who was the most delicate is not the message that I want my girls to have. And that's pretty much the heart of this whole series. Like, when I started writing this, I loved fairy tales. I always loved fairy tales. As a kid, used to fracture fairy tales also. I would tell the story of the princess and the pea, but it would be the princess and the M and M because I was not a fan of vegetables and I like chocolate. But I always, always loved fairy tales, but when I had a daughter of my own and I would tell her these stories, I wanted to teach her that, no, she doesn't have to wait for a prince to come and save her. That's not how she's gonna get her a happy ending. She has to have agency. She has to be empowered. She has to be the one to make the change in her own life. So that was really the message that I wanted to be in my books. And that's why when Abby falls into these fairy tales, she not only is the one who saves the day, but she also helps the princess realize what she can be on her own. And sometimes the princess gets married. I don't want to give away the endings of all the books. Okay. In some of the books, you know, she realizes the prince is the right guy for her. And in some cases, she realizes that maybe she should get a job and then earn her own money. And then that's how she could move out of her stepmother's attic.

[21:14]Zibby Owens: Tell me more about 10 things we did and probably shouldn't have your teen book, which I thought was just so awesome. This, like, the modern day forever? Is this, like, what you're going for? I you know what? I think

[21:27]Sarah Mlynowski: when I write my teen stuff, I just usually have an idea and I just kind of explore it. For 10 Things We Did, it's about a girl whose parents move away and she moves in with her friend. And that is the story that happened to me pretty much when I was 17. My mom had remarried and moved to Connecticut, and my sister moved with her, and then my father had also remarried and moved for a job. And I did not want to leave Montreal where I was. So, for twelfth grade, I ended up moving into my friend's basement. And, you know, we paid her rent. And my friend's mother traveled a lot and was in California for pretty much most of the year. So, it was just the two of us in this house living on our own for the first time. And I had never really done laundry before or my own laundry. I'd never just cooked my own dinner. So, suddenly, I was living this, you know, life, this adult life while still being in the twelfth grade. So, that really was the heart of the story. And when I talked when I first pitched it to my editor, you know, I said it's going be about the fun parties that she has. And my editor said, Okay, Sarah, but it's not just about the fun parties. What about the feeling of abandonment but your parents? What does it mean when your parents leave and you're left on your own? Of course, there's fun, but there's also the flip side, the dark side of that. So, was a really interesting book for me to write and I hopefully was able to show both sides of that.

[22:48]Zibby Owens: Do you feel like that whole experience, in addition to just gaining this fantastic book, how do you feel like having did you have to choose your parents? Like how did that whole incident in your life affect sort of how you developed your own sense of family and especially now as a mom? I mean, it's definitely It's made family extremely important to me and I wanted to definitely have one of my own.

[23:08]Sarah Mlynowski: And, I mean, I've been with my husband since we were 17. We started dating at 17. Yeah. So, I actually met him that year that I was on my own. And he became my family in so many ways because, you know, his family, his parents were still in Montreal and yet they just opened their arms to me. So, while I was living on my own, I still would go over there for dinners and just feel like I was part of something. So, that was So, was he like Noah with Methodist? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Like Noah. Well, I'm trying to I wrote that book now. Was Noah the good one or the I don't I don't wanna give anything away. Don't don't tell

[23:42]Zibby Owens: me the answer. So

[23:46]Sarah Mlynowski: what is going to be your hit movie from all this time? What do you think? Well, Upsettle Magic has been optioned by Disney. So they are developing it right now, hopefully. And I don't know. I think what I'd like to do now in terms of next steps is for me to develop some of these books. I have so many books and so many ideas that I really want to see, well, how do they go on television or features or something like that. Really wanna spend some time focusing on that now in the future. Do you have one that you can see a main character, you have it all sort of in your head already or you just I know. I could see 10 Things We Did as a TV show, I think.

[24:22]Zibby Owens: I almost went online to make sure it wasn't. It's not. Because I was like, I feel like I've have I seen this already?

[24:28]Sarah Mlynowski: I hope not. But No. I think I like I See London, I See France. That's another book I wrote about backpacking through Europe, I could see that as a feature. It's about two girls backpacking and it was a trip that I did when I was 19, I believe. And it was just so much fun and I learned so much about myself. Also, you know, the theme of being on my own for the first time, I think is such an important theme in teen literature. So, I've written about that in different ways. And I think those make great movies too. Is there anything you wish you did better? So many things. Yes. Yes. I, in general, what? I I'm I I always think I could do more than I can, so I'm often late with books. And so I I just handed in something yesterday, which was probably due about a month and a half ago. So I'm always late on everything, especially with the books. And sometimes I have to bump books a year because I think, Oh, for sure, I could write four books this year, but I can't actually physically write four books this year. So, I had to push back the companion to I See London and I See France. I sometimes, instead, like, for instance, when I'm invited to speak on television, I get very nervous and usually don't just come up with excuses why I shouldn't do it when I really should push myself to do that stuff because it's, you know, it's good practice and it's good publicity. But I usually just make up excuses as to why I can't do it. I shouldn't do that.

[25:54]Zibby Owens: In addition to developing more for TV or film, what do you still want to accomplish?

[26:01]Sarah Mlynowski: That's a good question. I think at some point I'd like to write a picture book as well. I just keep getting younger and younger with my material. So maybe then I'll be bored books. I'll be writing fantasy novels. I don't know. But I would like to write a picture book. At some point, I'd like to write some sort of Holocaust story. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. It's not really my brand. I write kind of female comedy action adventure books. But I think at some point, I'd really like to slow down and focus on a different type of story to tell my grandmother's story. I don't know when that's going be, but at some point. And then I'd also like to write a book about being a mom. I haven't when I wrote for adults, was writing about being, you know, the 20 single woman. And I would like to, at some point, write about what it's like to be maybe a New York City mom because there's lots of stories. I'll pick that one up.

[26:51]Zibby Owens: You can research my kids. That's great. What about any kind of advice you have for either writers out there or parents who have kids who wanna be writers?

[27:02]Sarah Mlynowski: I would say encourage your kids to read everything, not just one type of book. Of course, you want them always reading, so you want them focusing on whatever they love. I wouldn't ever tell them not to read a specific thing. But just to make sure that they're exploring all their options, like let them try mysteries or if they don't, let them try scary books or all different things so they can really figure out what they want to do eventually. I would also tell them to keep a journal. I kept diaries my entire elementary school life, and I often go back and look through them. Do you have yours too? I have my

[27:37]Zibby Owens: daughter now, like, here. They're all oh, you see? They're like, oh. Anyway, sadly, my sorry. I'm, like, turning around. My daughter my daughter now, like, has play dates, she's like, wanna come in and read my mom's diaries? I'm like, stop. No.

[27:49]Sarah Mlynowski: I haven't met my daughter's youth yet, but I think I they'll probably get a kick out of them. How old are your daughters? My daughters are nine and five. So, I think definitely keeping journals. I always advise that for practicing writing, but also so that they can go back and reread them later on. And I would say also to work on short stories and then maybe submit them to community journals or school journals. A lot of schools have their own. If they don't, then to talk about starting one. I think sometimes if a school doesn't have that available, then it's up to the student to say, It would be great if we had this. Can I work on it? I've done that before. In high school, we started our own journal and we didn't have creative writing classes in high school, so we petitioned to have one. And then we did. So, I think a lot of it is either seeing what's available to you and otherwise starting it for yourself.

[28:41]Zibby Owens: I have to just ask, what type of name is Malinowski? Now that I've typed it like 20 times.

[28:48]Sarah Mlynowski: I mean, I guess it's Polish Jewish. So, it's pronounced It's pronounced Molinovsky because it's No, a Polish double no, no. It's totally fine. I pronounce it differently all the time. It's unclear exactly how it's really pronounced. My father, Chance, pronounced it differently his whole life, so I kind of do too. I feel like as long as everyone makes an attempt to get all the letters in, then it's kinda cool with it. Sometimes people come up with different things. There's like a b in there suddenly. That doesn't exist. Yeah.

[29:17]Zibby Owens: Just one last thing on the Upside Down Magic series. Are you do you have your kids in mind when you're writing these? Do you read them out loud to your kids? Or not or both. It's not just Upside Down Magic, but both of these series is, like,

[29:29]Sarah Mlynowski: how do you I mean, we talked about how you get into the teen mind, but getting into that grade school, is it your kids? It was pretty much my voice, I think. I go into my mind. I have a younger sister, not a younger brother, but I do channel that sibling relationship. And I do read them aloud to Chloe, my older one. I started reading it to her when she her first day of kindergarten. I got my page proofs and we were on the train going uptown and I'd just gotten it and I said, do you want to hear it? And it was the first one that she did and we read it all the way up and then all the way down. It was the first time I'd ever read my stuff out loud. And people always say, you should read your stuff out loud, and I never listened. But it is so helpful. I cannot recommend it enough. I found so many things in it. Mistakes and changes. Just to have her real time reaction was fascinating. So that was really the first time I did it. So I just marked things up and I changed them. And now she reads I read her all the page proofs. The page proofs are after once the book has gone to be edited, then it gets designed. It's called the first pass or the page proof. So, it almost looks like pages in a book. And it's easy to read aloud and mark up. The last one though, she asked when we were running late and she said, Oh, I'll just take them to school and I'll mark it up for you. And that was kind of sad and also cute. I like her little smiley faces. So yeah. Was

[30:48]Zibby Owens: everything I Wow. Wanted to I feel like we both speak so quickly. We get it all done. Anyway, thank you so much for My pleasure. Appreciate chatting with me. And just a reminder, this episode was sponsored by Chloe's Fruit, the cool way to eat fruit. Check them out at chloe's fruit dot com, and thank you again to Sarah. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.