Jojo Moyes, WE ALL LIVE HERE: A Novel
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
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[0:44]JoJo Moise is the author of We All Live Here, A Novel.
[0:49]It is her second time on the podcast, and JoJo Moise is the number one New York Times
[0:53]bestselling author of The Giver of Stars, Still Me, Paris for One, and Other Stories, after
[1:00]you, one plus one, the girl you left behind, me before you, the last letter from your
[1:05]lover, the horse dancer, Night Music, Silver Bay, the ship of brides, and the peacock
[1:09]and porem, me before you, was also adapted in to film.
[1:13]Also a screenwriter, JoJo lives in London, England.
[1:16]Welcome JoJo.
[1:17]Thanks for coming on totally booked with Zibi.
[1:19]Now we're talking about We All Live Here, which I loved so much.
[1:24]I love this book.
[1:25]I love the characters.
[1:26]Oh my gosh.
[1:27]I'm obsessed.
[1:28]So thank you.
[1:29]Thank you for writing it.
[1:31]Well, thank you for having me back.
[1:33]Of course.
[1:34]Of course.
[1:35]Can you start by just telling listeners what the books are about?
[1:37]OK.
[1:38]Well, it's kind of a very small canvas.
[1:41]It's a tragic comedy, if you like, about a family who we meet at a time of crisis and for
[1:48]whom things get a little more complicated before they get better.
[1:53]It's mostly revolving around Lila, who is a recent single mom after her husband decided
[2:00]to run off with a neighbor and impregnate her.
[2:03]And now Lila has to see them at the school gates every day.
[2:07]And her mother recently died, so her stepdad came to live with her.
[2:12]And that's proving challenging for her and her two chaotic daughters.
[2:16]And then in the middle of all this, her biological dad, who she hasn't seen for decades,
[2:21]reappears, having finally exhausted all his avenues of credit, tolerant ex-girlfriends,
[2:30]opportunities that he had after being a kind of semi successful Hollywood actor in the
[2:36]80s and 90s.
[2:37]Amazing.
[2:38]Well, there are so many layers to the story and so many entry points for people.
[2:43]One of the many storylines is about Lila's daughter, Celie, and the effects of when
[2:53]friends at school, she's a teenager, just stopped talking to you.
[2:57]And she has this moment where she says, like, I wish almost they were being physically hurt
[3:02]fall because then at least I could tell someone or people would understand.
[3:06]And my teenage daughter, by the way, as I was reading this, was texting me that like
[3:11]something similar, not the whole thing, but like pieces of this were going on.
[3:14]I was like, this is literally like life art.
[3:17]You know, this happens to so many people in some way, you know, big ways, big or small, but
[3:21]I love that you put not only Lila's journey, but that you have her daughter's journey in there as well.
[3:27]Well, I think it's because when we first see Celie, Celie 16, when we first see her behavior
[3:33]externally through Lila's eyes, she just looks like a typical teenager who's playing her,
[3:37]you know, she's missing school, she's smoking weed, she's being kind of grumpy and answering
[3:44]back and you know, she's just not the girl that Lila knew and loved.
[3:49]But when you see the world through Celie's eyes and a later chapter, you realize that this
[3:54]poor girl is dealing with so much the fallout from her parents divorced.
[3:59]She understands that her mom is a mess and she's trying to kind of not keep extra pressure.
[4:03]But as you said, she's been ignored by her friends. And this is, this came from a thing that
[4:09]a friend told me that her undo was going through. And I was so shocked by the kind of random
[4:15]nature of it, like at school, sometimes somehow you can get judged for wearing the wrong
[4:21]laces in your shoes or eating strangely when you're, you know, eating a hamburger or something,
[4:27]if you make a weird noise. And so I talked to my kids about it and I was like,
[4:31]was that how it was for you? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there was this girl who put the wrong
[4:37]coloured nail varnish on or who said something stupid and then everyone froze her out and then the
[4:42]other kids don't want to get bullied themselves. So they also add to it. And because it's social
[4:48]media now and because of the advent of smartphones, whereas when you and I may have been at school,
[4:53]we got to go home and life was normal outside the school gates. Now it's 24 seven, you know,
[4:58]they can see what they're being excluded from. They are vanishing from the snack chats and the
[5:03]WhatsApps and it's just a permanent torture. So I wanted to show that we don't always know
[5:10]what's going on in other people's lives. Even when we think we're really good at understanding
[5:15]people's motivations and that goes for all the generations. That's true. Oh, well, I really
[5:21]love that. And it is the sort of unique brand of cruelty that happens at school age and that,
[5:28]you know, it's not like we have resources for bullying is sort of different. But anyway, I don't
[5:33]need to know how to hunt about it. But I feel like you captured it in a way I haven't read before
[5:37]and it's so important to talk about anyway. So there's that. I love the whole storyline where Lila
[5:44]is an author writing her own book, dealing with her agent, writing the book, and then getting
[5:50]feedback. But it's also like we're getting feedback on your book at the same time. And like
[5:55]when she gets feedback from her agent about the first few chapters and says, that's a little
[5:59]mopey. Like we need some, you know, sexual midlife, you know, post met, you know, menopausal,
[6:04]you know, steaminess or whatever. It's just like menopause. I'm not in menopause. They're like,
[6:08]oh, we will be by that. And then she's like, all right, I guess I'll go in a date. So I can
[6:11]write something about it, which of course gets her into trouble. But I just love seeing that,
[6:16]the writer, you know, Lila is writer. Tell me about adding that in. And even the excerpts that
[6:21]we get from her of the book. And the deleted excerpts are so genius. I loved it.
[6:25]Oh, well, it's mostly because as a writer, I can only do fiction. Like the idea of writing about
[6:32]my life and exposing my life to public view is so hideous to me that even when I was writing
[6:38]those scenes, my body was kind of pulling up inside. So Lila agrees to write a book about being a
[6:45]sexy single, you know, semi-menopausal mother who's finding her way in the singles market.
[6:53]And nothing happens. And so she's at one point reduced to trying to make stuff up, which is, of
[6:59]course, terrible. But I think as an author, one of the fun things is to put your characters through
[7:05]situations that, you know, you will never be able to face. And I, yeah, I'm in awe of people who
[7:11]can write about their own lives and just still exist in the world. But I couldn't do it. And
[7:16]it turns out Lila couldn't either. Yes. Well, it was a nice sort of interlude. And you also have
[7:24]this Spanish soap opera going throughout to like, that was so random. Tell me about that. Not random.
[7:31]Just like so delightful as an addition and unexpected. That's a better word than. Well,
[7:37]I don't know about you, but sometimes I really take courage and comfort from fictional characters.
[7:44]And so there is a telenovela among the streamers that Lila becomes quietly obsessed by. And while
[7:50]she is showing up in the world, in kind of a passive state, when we meet her, you know, her husband
[7:56]has done this terrible thing. He's now got somebody else pregnant. She's having still with the
[8:00]consequences and sweep up the masses. Whereas her daughters go, this character, she becomes obsessed
[8:07]by, is a much more vegetable character and much more capable. And so I think it's Estella Esperanza.
[8:17]Her name is. And she, you know, goes into disguise and visits all sorts of vengeance is upon
[8:23]her ex-husband and his new young mistress. And I think Lila may not realize it at the time,
[8:30]but it sort of helps form her into someone who's a little more active and present in her own life.
[8:37]And yeah, I don't want to say too much about it, but it doesn't behave quite as badly as the
[8:43]character, but it definitely helps. The storyline of her stepdad and her biological dad
[8:52]and their own love relationships of their own and their relationships with each other.
[8:58]Her lost her mother who has passed away and has, like, a naked photo, a naked painting in the
[9:04]hall. Oh my gosh, which I love what you did without the end. That was so funny. That's also great,
[9:10]because it's wonderful to see sort of later in life. Like, I know what's her name, Florence,
[9:15]who came by who was so, you know, and then you have a scene from her point of view too and
[9:19]tell me about writing in that and sort of love throughout the ages and what that means
[9:24]and how it shifts over time. Well, I think I remember being kind of 25 and looking at my
[9:30]friend's mom who was single and dating and was in a complete pickle about something and thinking,
[9:36]oh my god, well, when I'm 40, I'm gonna have it all sorted out. I'm gonna be fully in control
[9:42]of everything. Like, why is this woman 45 and, you know, in a mess about her love life? And hey,
[9:49]guess what? I'm now 55 and I realize I know nothing about anything. And it just made me love so
[9:55]much. And I remember my dad going to visit an old friend of his and artist who-
[10:00]in the seventies and this guy was really ill and pretty much on his deck bed and when dad met
[10:05]him he was weeping and dad said you know what's wrong is is there something I can help you
[10:10]with and he said I'm in love and she doesn't know I exist and this guy was like 76 and dad came
[10:17]back and said oh my goodness it never stops like you can feel that level of passion at a time when
[10:25]most of us assume people are putting on our country slippers and just watching the TV and so
[10:30]I guess that's what I wanted to show is that human life is messy families are messier and how we
[10:38]show up in our love lives and how we feel about people doesn't necessarily get any softer or
[10:43]easier you know we're still prone to big passions big misunderstandings and there's something
[10:50]kind of glorious about having people who are of a pensionable age just fooling in and out of love
[10:57]and and getting their niggas in a twist about it as we would say I think I don't know if that makes
[11:01]me feel better or worse well yeah I know I get it can I just read this one part yeah this is just her
[11:12]state of mind this is towards the beginning but I could have picked like 8,000 other passages but
[11:17]she does not want to think about her ex has beened and his effortlessly gorgeous new partner
[11:21]she does not want to think about his and marja marja marja yeah marja marja spotless home up the road
[11:27]with its sparse selection of stylus objects and naguchi coffee table she does not want to
[11:32]think about her absent mother who had somehow made all of this mess so much more manageable
[11:37]some days lila feels as if she's battling everything the furious slippery contents of her brain
[11:42]her wavering unreliable hormones her weight her ex has beened her house's attempts to fall
[11:47]down around her ears the world in general I mean so many I feel like I you could post that in a
[11:55]little Instagram square and everyone would be like yes I feel that way too that's you think life yes
[12:02]well I guess one of the things I try and do when I write is just to make readers feel a bit
[12:08]lesser loan I mean I'm astonished how messy life is and you know on the outside I frequently
[12:16]look like I've got everything going on you know I've got a good career I've got these great kids my
[12:22]life is you know by any objective standard pretty great but underneath all those things I have battled
[12:30]with the contents of my brain I am obsessed with the fact that my trousers are too tight my kids
[12:34]might be going through something that I can't tell anybody about I'm feeling guilty because I'm
[12:39]not visiting my elderly parents enough you know all that stuff and and the thing that astonishes me
[12:45]about women is the way we carry all of this stuff all the time I don't know any women of my age
[12:52]say 40 to 55 who aren't involved in a kind of constant roller decks there's one for the older
[12:59]readers yes of things to do and things to cope with and you know questions to answer and
[13:06]it never gets any easier and I remember my my best friend and I for a few years when things were
[13:12]pretty tricky we just ended every phone call and we used to laugh because every phone call
[13:18]ended up with the phrase it's a lot and I guess this is a book that just shows it is a lot but
[13:26]hey we're all going through it and I think there's no point for being about it there's no point
[13:32]you know glossing it I don't I don't trust people who show up as as if everything's perfect what I
[13:38]like is women of this age meeting each other where they are and going oh you did you survived what
[13:45]oh good luck to you you know well done and yeah or I've been through that and I feel like there's
[13:49]a fantastic solidarity among readers as well as just women in general and it's so nice to feel
[13:56]a part of that community when like you said some of those things we can't talk about we don't post
[14:02]about we don't share publicly it doesn't mean it's not keeping us up at night or making us cry
[14:08]or whatever right we all show y'all carry so much and being able to see just one woman who it
[14:15]could be okay you know even her the threat of her home you know the homes are like on my mind
[14:22]at the moment but like there's a time with Dan where you know there's a moment where she might
[14:27]be able to afford to even keep her home what does that even do the instability of it all
[14:31]and really what ability are any of us really guaranteed like not much really not much and of
[14:38]course you and america felt that more keenly than most and I think in general there is a kind of
[14:45]existential instability to do with the political situation to do with climate change most people I know
[14:51]are feeling unstable I'm quite a visceral level and honestly that's one of the reasons why I
[14:58]wanted to make this a comedic book because I feel like bringing comedy into your stories is not
[15:05]a matter of making it less than or kind of lightweight or just something that's less worthwhile
[15:13]I truly believe that our brains are not designed to cope with the level of global grief and
[15:20]instability that is bombarded that we are bombarded with on a day-to-day basis you know a hundred
[15:26]years ago we might have read a newspaper once a day or received a couple of letters from people
[15:31]who are going through stuff and now it's on 24 seven news it's on social media it's coming to
[15:38]us via emails from our friends it's on globally now it's by telephone calls there is no letter
[15:45]so my it's no coincidence that my books have got funnier as everything's got darker because
[15:51]I honestly believe our brains need it we need to have a little respite and laugh at something
[15:58]in order to cope with the bigger stuff I totally agree yes and there were so many funny
[16:05]parts of your book just the whole all the dialogue on the interior monologue of it and all these
[16:10]hilarious situations people end up finding themselves in it's a great sort of antidote to
[16:15]things that can feel overwhelming but that's just it right trauma mixed with humor you have
[16:20]like pain joy I mean that's just how to survive right so me it's exactly I mean when you look at
[16:27]the emergency services they have all the best jokes and there's a reason for that is because
[16:32]they've worked out the only way to deal with that absolute darkness is to kind of throw jokes at it
[16:37]and make light of it and it doesn't mean that you don't feel it it doesn't mean that you don't
[16:42]respect it as an entity but you have to combat it somehow and you have to protect yourself it's
[16:48]like putting your oxygen mask up first and sometimes that's going to involve laughing and that's
[16:52]okay I love that when you set out to write we all live here what was like the one sentence pitch
[17:00]and did that end up being the heart of the book I think it started off being more about the two
[17:06]I just I love the film the old couple and I wanted to write something about a messy family
[17:12]and I didn't see much when I was reading fiction about the kind of different shapes that families
[17:20]are now I didn't see like I grew up with a half brother two half sisters two step brothers who are
[17:27]much older than me and we all like each other and we get on and we have a a strange shaped
[17:33]family but it doesn't mean that it's any less than and I just thought I don't see many of these
[17:37]families represented now and what it costs to get us to that place and the fact that when we get there
[17:45]we're not problematic we're not a drain on anything we're supportive it's just that we're a
[17:50]different shape and so I wanted to write about a family that was kind of misshapen but I did try it
[17:56]with two women at one point I tried to have the two an elder you know a mother and a step mother
[18:02]but it just and I'm really sorry to any male really that it just wasn't as funny there's something
[18:08]inherently funnier about two old men fighting over something than there is about two older
[18:14]women fighting it's just a different kind of game so yeah that's how it started off
[18:20]who knew I would have started with the husband leaving or the school gates or who knows
[18:26]well I like kind of took over so yeah that's yeah it became her story but you can't always tell
[18:34]who's going to dominate anything sometimes the characters just walk out and speak for themselves
[18:40]how long did this I'll take you to rape this was really fast and that never happens for me and I
[18:46]think it's no coincidence that I changed my life dramatically two years ago I got rid of the big
[18:54]country house that I lived in which had a lot of land and a lot of animals and a lot of chaos and
[18:59]it was very old it was a typical old English house so it was always falling to bits and so a lot of
[19:04]my life and energy was spent devoting myself to the running of this place and then suddenly I
[19:10]moved to a house in London which was much smaller I have far fewer responsibilities two of my kids
[19:15]left home and and I didn't realize the impact that this extra energy would have on my writing
[19:24]and I was so anxious when I was writing it because I'd like a dumb sort of 40,000 miles before I
[19:29]knew it and I don't remember sending it to my agent and just saying is this any good because
[19:36]it's coming so easily to me that I feel anxious that it's actually not good enough and then
[19:42]I gave it to my best friend as well and both of them just came back going no we were more
[19:46]it's really funny and we love it and and it just showed me oh okay when you let go of some stuff
[19:53]it's amazing how you can refocus your energy and so yeah I'm hoping that maybe I'll become more
[20:00]without to. So this is the secret. You just have to get in a house and
[20:04]London and then you're sat. Yeah, yeah, ship your kids off. And you're
[20:10]right in the chickens and it's all going to be. Are you working on a new
[20:14]project now? I am unable to talk about it because I'm at that
[20:19]magical point where I haven't yet decided whether I'm going to keep
[20:23]it or get rid of it. But if it works, it's another slightly comedic
[20:29]story. And it's if it if it works, it's set in a very lovely
[20:34]European city. OK, I'll take that. OK. And what about movie
[20:41]stuff? No. Any news on that for this or other projects? And
[20:46]you've had so much film. Well, it's coming out of time and film
[20:50]and TV at the moment. I think, you know, with the strike and
[20:53]everything else that has gone on, it's definitely a more
[20:56]challenging environment right now. But I'm working with a couple
[20:59]of really good production companies. And we have a couple
[21:03]of ions in the fire. The thing that I'm most excited about, we
[21:07]can get it away. So I've written three episodes of the
[21:09]Giver of Stars, which we're turning into a television series. And
[21:13]I cannot tell you how much I am enjoying that process. It's
[21:17]really nice to do it as TV because you can really let something
[21:20]breathe. And I love the people that I'm working with. So I'm
[21:23]just praying that we can find a home for that. I love that
[21:27]congratulations. So fun. Amazing. I really want to see this
[21:31]one. We all live here. It could even be a play. It could be a
[21:34]really fun play. It could be a play. You're absolutely right.
[21:37]It's I've never written something on such a small canvas
[21:40]before. And it was a lot of fun because what I really love
[21:42]writing about is character. And so I just got to play with
[21:46]characters for the whole thing. And you'd not do any kind of
[21:49]serious, you know, research into World War II or, you know, the
[21:54]Appalachians in 1930. It was a lot of fun. So yeah, thank you.
[21:59]I'm really glad that that came through in the writing.
[22:01]Absolutely. Well, Jojo, thank you. Congratulations. Thank you
[22:05]also. We spoke. You gave me such great advice and like avoiding
[22:08]burnout and all of this. You were so such a comfort. And I
[22:13]really appreciate it. So thank you for that. Oh, I'm so well,
[22:16]you've clearly gone from strength to strength. So, you know, any
[22:19]time I can help. Although I do know nothing, I know that
[22:24]now. That's not true. That is not true. Amazing. Well, thank
[22:29]you so much. Thanks, Libby. Nice to see you. Nice to see you.
[22:32]Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with
[22:36]Zibi formerly momstone have time to read books. If you
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