Clare Leslie Hall, BROKEN COUNTRY
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[0:45]Claire Leslie Hall is the author of Broken Country, which is a Zibi's book club pick for
[0:49]June.
[0:50]Claire Leslie Hall is a novelist and journalist who lives in the wilds of Dorset England
[0:54]with her family.
[0:55]Under the name Claire Empson, she published two domestic noir thrillers, him, and mine
[1:01]that were published in the UK and Germany.
[1:03]She has always loved the go-between by L.P. Hartley, and Broken Country is a nod to it, featuring
[1:09]a forbidden love affair with catastrophic repercussions.
[1:13]Broken Family is her U.S. debut.
[1:15]Welcome Claire, thank you so much for coming on to discuss Broken Country a novel, which
[1:21]as I've posted about, I am obsessed with it was so good.
[1:25]Oh my gosh.
[1:26]So thank you.
[1:27]Oh, thank you so much for saying that.
[1:28]And also, thank you for having me.
[1:30]I'm really excited to chat to you today.
[1:33]And I saw it yesterday, it came out that this is the Barnes and Noble pick for the
[1:38]months.
[1:39]So congratulations.
[1:40]Thank you.
[1:41]Over the moon.
[1:42]Oh my gosh, I'm sure it will be the first of many, including mine as tiny club compared
[1:47]to Barnes and Noble or whatever, but whatever I can do to get people to read it.
[1:51]I was so immersed in covering my eyes, and I don't know, it was like the greatest
[1:57]read.
[1:58]Tell everybody what the book is about, please.
[2:00]Yes, so Broken Country is about a very passionate love triangle that takes place during
[2:06]the 1960s in a small English village, and it culminates with a big murder trial in London.
[2:12]It's really the story of a young woman of Bath who's completely torn between two very
[2:19]different men and two very different lifestyles.
[2:22]And what happens when her first love Gabriel unexpectedly returns to the village and turns
[2:28]her life upside down?
[2:30]And there's a courtroom drama going right the way through it and a mystery.
[2:35]So it's kind of like three genres rolled into one because it's primarily also a novel
[2:39]about love.
[2:40]Wow.
[2:41]Okay.
[2:42]How did this whole novel come about and take me back three year life and how we got here,
[2:46]the quick version of, yeah, oh, a quick version, obsessive bookworm, book nerd, book
[2:53]reader from the moment I could read, which is like, I don't know, five and always writing
[2:59]stories, but and my family were the same.
[3:02]We just used to, they were both teachers, but a little bit like best parents, and we would
[3:07]go to two libraries like we were sort of almost gaming the system and get out our full
[3:12]quotes with books and read, read, read, read, read, that's what we did.
[3:16]And then I was a journalist when I first after a university, I became a journalist and I did
[3:22]that for like 15 or 20 years.
[3:25]And I was kind of always wanting to be a novelist and I probably started writing creatively
[3:30]in my 30s.
[3:31]I'm in my 50s now and it was just a long old hard road trying to get published, but eventually
[3:39]I got there because I actually published two novels before this one that didn't come
[3:45]out in the US.
[3:46]And this is my third published novel and you used a different name, right?
[3:50]Or did I make that up?
[3:51]Yeah, my married name and this is my maiden name.
[3:53]It's actually, it's quite nice because both my parents have passed away, but Leslie was
[3:58]my mother's maiden name and Hall was my dad's son name.
[4:02]So they're kind of on the front of the book I like to think, I'm sorry that they're not
[4:07]here to revel in your success.
[4:10]Thank you.
[4:11]Oh my gosh.
[4:12]The books, the previous books, was it also, were they also a lot of genres sort of mixed
[4:19]in one or yes?
[4:22]You know, yes.
[4:23]I really think they were.
[4:24]So the first novel, which was called him, it's been republished excitingly in America
[4:29]and it's going to be called Pictures of him.
[4:32]And I remember I've actually got a new agent now, but I remember that the agent I had
[4:36]at the time and this was 2017.
[4:39]I remember her saying it's a very hard book to pitch because it's a love story and
[4:45]it's a sort of thriller and it's a suspense and I think maybe, you know, as authors
[4:51]you were sort of expected to stay in your lane, particularly then, but I don't know if
[4:55]the market has changed.
[4:57]But when my new agent put this book out on submission, I saw that what she put in the headline
[5:04]was Love Story with the Pulse of a Thriller.
[5:06]So it's like making a virtue of it.
[5:09]And I think I just love stories that combine suspense and love stories and mystery.
[5:17]You know, I think I love things like my all-time favourite maybe The Great Gatsby.
[5:21]When you think about it, there's a love story, there's a murder, or something like
[5:26]the secret history, same, you know, love stories for dramas, murder.
[5:32]I love to read those books and I just, and I don't seem to be able to write any other
[5:36]way.
[5:37]I don't think I can write to fit a genre for some reason.
[5:40]That's fine.
[5:41]You don't need to be a genre.
[5:43]That's fine.
[5:44]Of course, it's fine.
[5:45]Obviously, it works.
[5:47]It works.
[5:48]I am excited to go back and read your other books now that I've read this one.
[5:52]One of the neat things that you do is you don't even know who is on trial in the book
[5:57]at first, right?
[5:58]To learn.
[5:59]We have to uncover so much and why they're on trial and you just give us these little
[6:03]things.
[6:04]And I remember at one point someone said for writing advice, you know, you have to trust
[6:08]that the reader is smart enough to follow, even if you don't give them everything they
[6:12]need to know.
[6:13]They will get it and they will be able to stay with it.
[6:16]Tell me a little bit about how you unveiled, you know, the pacing of that and interweaving
[6:22]it and just like from a technical standpoint, even how you decided to do it or if it
[6:27]it just happened that way.
[6:29]Yeah.
[6:30]Well, I would say, so the book from start to finish, the idea came very, very quickly
[6:36]to me and I couldn't wait to write it, but the actual writing of the story, I'm going
[6:43]to say probably 20 drafts and four years.
[6:46]And it changed in layers.
[6:48]So it was always a love story.
[6:49]There was always a man who died.
[6:51]I always knew who died and how, but it was only around two years in, for example, that
[6:57]I decided I wanted to write a murder trial and I've never written any courtroom drama
[7:02]before.
[7:03]So I wasn't sure if I could do it and I went and there's a very famous old courthouse
[7:07]in London called the Old Bailey and you can actually sit in the public gallery and watch
[7:12]a murder trial.
[7:13]So I watched a murder trial for a week and it was so colorful and so inspiring.
[7:18]And then I came back and wrote my own version of it.
[7:20]And I think putting that, breaking it up and putting it through the novel really helped
[7:25]with the suspense.
[7:26]Plus, I think some of the twists without giving any spoilers, there's one particular twist
[7:32]at the end and I had that idea right at the start.
[7:37]I thought no way.
[7:38]That's way too difficult to pull off.
[7:41]And then I've got it because I posted on Insta when a twist drops out of the sky.
[7:47]It was literally two and a half years into writing the book or three years and I went,
[7:52]but of course, you have to do it.
[7:55]So then there was a lot of going back and the timeline making it all stack up or you
[8:01]know what that's like, it's so difficult.
[8:04]And so I guess it came what I would say is those sort of red crumbs and twists, they came
[8:10]in stages in layers.
[8:13]I didn't start out with all of them, although the love triangle at the heart of it, the
[8:18]man who dies, all of that I had from day one.
[8:21]Wow.
[8:22]So exciting.
[8:23]So you have a lot of farm life.
[8:27]You have all these different lives, right?
[8:28]You have the, you know, the posh sort of more costly type of life and then you have the farm
[8:32]life and you have the Oxford dorm room and you take us all over, right?
[8:36]Tell me a little more about the farm life because the farm itself becomes a type of character.
[8:42]And I now honestly think of, you know, animals on farm, like very differently from how
[8:49]you describe them and, you know, giving birth, the animals giving birth and all of it felt
[8:54]so incredibly real.
[8:56]Tell us about that part of it.
[8:59]So thrilled.
[9:00]Thank you so much.
[9:01]I'm so thrilled you feel like that because that's kind of the experience that I had
[9:05]to.
[9:06]We live in a farmhouse surrounded by fields and, you know, the idea came because a farmer
[9:11]threatened to shoot our very young dog when he strayed into fields of lambs and that didn't
[9:15]happen, but I did get the love triangle pop into my head.
[9:19]And I could just see them so clearly in their fields of sheep, Frank and Beth and, you
[9:25]know, Leo running towards them and his father behind.
[9:29]And once I decided I wanted it to be a farm, a story about a farm in copper, I realized
[9:33]I didn't know that much about farming, even though I was surrounded by farmland.
[9:38]And so I spent probably a year going out with farmers on and off, you know, I went
[9:43]lambing.
[9:44]I learned how to milk cows, which was really hard and I was not very good at it.
[9:49]And I went harvesting and I stayed with a couple who were quite inspiring for me actually
[9:56]a couple on a very small farm who were just.
[10:00]just obsessed, you know, it was not, I could see that it was a life that, you know,
[10:03]didn't have a lot of financial reward, but they were both, they would never have considered
[10:08]anything else and she took me out and she showed me this hide that her husband, who
[10:13]was also called Frank, had built for her and how she used to just watch these nesting
[10:20]birds.
[10:21]And I was just, she was obsessed, she knew every plant, she knew every bird, and it kind
[10:26]of a lot of that went into my heart and I think it, it really also opened my own eyes
[10:32]and I realized that, you know, I, I walk in these beautiful fields every day with my dog,
[10:37]but I wasn't looking and I wasn't listening and I wasn't noticing.
[10:41]So now I think it made me really appreciate the seasons and the different birds and the
[10:47]wildlife and the landscape in a way that I just didn't before, I think I just sort of existed
[10:53]within it without properly noticing it.
[10:56]So I hope that's something that comes across in the book because I wanted the farm setting
[11:01]to really be its own character because I could see it like a movie in my head because
[11:07]it's my landscape, I can just sort of almost seem by scene, I know where they are, I can
[11:12]see them.
[11:13]Well, I honestly have such a newfound respect for the farming life and not that I didn't
[11:19]have respect.
[11:21]Like you, I just didn't know enough and now I feel like I've gotten such a glimpse and
[11:26]there's such stewards of our world, really, I mean, that's exactly it, you know, and every
[11:32]single time with each of these farmers there would be a moment, like I remember I spent quite
[11:36]a lot of time with a farmer called Al and we went combine harvesting and for a day and he
[11:42]was just talking and then he'd say, look at that and it would be a red kite just sort of
[11:46]soaring up in front of us and I just thought that they noticed, they were noticing beauty
[11:52]in the midst of all the toil and I thought that was amazing.
[11:55]I thought how did they ask stewards and they, they, you know, they're caring for the land
[12:00]for generations and the land is so important to them and I think we take it for granted.
[12:06]I know I did anyway.
[12:08]So yeah, that was, that was a really big sort of, probably the thing that that's changed
[12:13]my life the most in the writing of the book.
[12:16]Wow.
[12:17]Well, there is so much loss in the book and you write so beautifully about child loss,
[12:23]which I don't think is giving anything away.
[12:25]It's sort of from the very beginning, you know, that this is Beth's lot in life and how
[12:30]did you tap into that?
[12:31]Like it felt so incredibly real, so sad, so poignant.
[12:36]Yeah, I mean, you know, I have three children.
[12:40]I'm very grateful that I can say they're all alive and well and as an author, I probably
[12:47]would have swayed away from something, imagining something quite so painful and devastating
[12:53]as losing a child, but the story arrived and Beth arrived almost fully formed.
[12:59]I knew because she was and I knew that she was this woman who was grieving and I knew
[13:03]that her husband Frank was so sort of had so much guilt.
[13:08]He couldn't give her the space to grieve or even to remember him.
[13:11]So I just imagined all of that and I think, you know, as a mother, it's you can imagine
[13:17]it.
[13:18]Can't you just that that it's a loss you'll never recover from and also how it would
[13:22]implode and marriage and whether you can actually get that marriage back on track.
[13:26]And actually funnily enough when I was on submission with the novel, I had this really
[13:32]exciting Zoom call with some film producers who were interested in the option and one of
[13:38]the very first questions they said to me was, we thought that you must have experienced
[13:43]child loss and I said, well, actually, no, that isn't my experience.
[13:47]You know, I imagined put myself in Beth shoes and I imagined what that would be like
[13:52]and how hard it would be to recover from it.
[13:55]But then afterwards, I thought that I do connect with Frank and Jimmy's loss because
[14:00]they lose their mum and they're young, which is what happened to me.
[14:04]They both don't process it and they both don't cope with their grief and it really
[14:09]forms their character.
[14:10]So Jimmy, who loses his mother when he's nine becomes very volatile.
[14:16]He drinks too much.
[14:17]He's occasionally violent.
[14:18]He's always in trouble.
[14:19]And what that is is he stopped caring about himself because his mum's not there and his
[14:23]dad was a 1950s man who didn't know how to give him the tools to process it.
[14:29]And the same really with Frank, you know, he just, the way he deals with his grief
[14:34]is just to throw himself into his hard work and to just ignore it, you know, just get
[14:40]on and get on.
[14:41]And I was like that too because I lost my mum when I was at university and it took me
[14:46]20 years to actually sort of deal with it really.
[14:50]And so I fell afterwards, I can see myself in Frank and Jimmy, it was just funny, isn't
[14:56]it?
[14:57]I knew how to write those characters, but while I was writing them, I didn't realize
[15:02]it was kind of my own personal stuff going in.
[15:05]And you even say in the book at one point that Jimmy basically stopped developing.
[15:10]He just was arrested in his maturity from that age, not that he couldn't care for
[15:15]himself, just he just couldn't move on from there.
[15:19]And it was almost that not childish but that processing level that, you know, I mean,
[15:25]I have a 10-year-old here, like, what can you possibly, how can you process something
[15:30]so big and know how to put it in the right box and go on with your life.
[15:34]It's so hard.
[15:35]So anyway, I thought that was beautiful.
[15:37]Yeah.
[15:38]Yeah.
[15:39]No, I agree.
[15:40]I think he was, he's stuck at that age on fortunate.
[15:42]Yeah.
[15:43]Can I ask what happened to your mum?
[15:44]I'm so sorry.
[15:45]Oh, yeah, she had cancer and I was at university.
[15:49]Yeah.
[15:50]So I was sort of 500 miles away from home and what was, this was the end of the 80s and
[15:55]what was strange about it was that, of course, you know, we didn't talk about grief and
[16:00]mental health in those days.
[16:02]And also everyone was 20, all my friends were 20 and I just remember, and we lived in
[16:07]Cambridge, I remember, you know, she died at the beginning of the summer and we went back,
[16:10]I went back in the October and no one said anything.
[16:14]And I was like, oh, wow, you mean, I've just got to carry on and this seismic thing
[16:18]has happened.
[16:19]And so that became very unhealthy because I just zipped it up and carried on.
[16:24]But as we know, you can't really do that.
[16:26]So yeah.
[16:27]But it was a very long time ago.
[16:29]Oh, I guess it will come out.
[16:32]Sorry.
[16:33]Yes, if you don't.
[16:34]Everything comes out.
[16:35]No matter how much you try and squash it back down, it just doesn't work, does it?
[16:39]Have you read the rules of inheritance by Claire bidwell Smith?
[16:42]She wrote a memoir about losing her mother in college.
[16:44]I don't know if you've all read it, but I'm going to read it.
[16:49]I think, no, that sounds great.
[16:51]Yeah.
[16:52]I think there's some similarities.
[16:53]I mean, it's her real story, but just holding all of that at once, the school and the
[16:58]dating and the loss and all of it, it's such, you know, not that there's ever a good age
[17:04]to lose a parent.
[17:05]But it's a very good age, but there's something about, but actually it's interesting
[17:09]because my children are now the age that I was.
[17:12]My daughter is where she's just turned 23, actually.
[17:16]And it's just so interesting seeing how they are, like some of them, a couple of them,
[17:22]their parents have fallen ill, and they're always saying to me, I don't know whether
[17:27]to say anything.
[17:28]I don't know whether to talk to them, I don't want to make them sad.
[17:32]And that made me realize, that's really what it is, isn't it?
[17:35]It's when you're young, you don't realize, you're so nervous about setting your
[17:39]friends.
[17:41]And so, but I equally, I do notice in their generation that they do talk to their friends
[17:47]and they do share their problems.
[17:48]It's kind of amazing.
[17:49]I'm so thrilled to see how much more open they are.
[17:53]One of my roommates in college lost her father while we were there.
[17:56]And I remember us all sort of taking a plane to go to the funeral and then coming right
[18:00]back and even just being in that setting and then coming right back in and jumping into
[18:06]like dropping off our laundry and going to the dining hall.
[18:09]It's like, wait, weren't we just in that giant church with all those people?
[18:13]And how are we here now?
[18:15]It's like with lash.
[18:16]It's, yeah, that's exactly what it's like.
[18:18]And there's so much pressure on you when you're young to be seen to be having a good
[18:23]time.
[18:24]And that's, you know, it's a very difficult age.
[18:28]And I also think when I look back on it, I was 21.
[18:31]You're not really an adult at 21.
[18:33]You think you are, but emotionally, you definitely are not.
[18:38]I would say.
[18:39]Yeah.
[18:40]Oh my gosh.
[18:41]Well, you also have like this horrific mother character in the book too, which is like
[18:44]going the complete other direction of like, what would the worst in law?
[18:49]What's good, your worst possible dream in law be is this woman, right?
[18:53]Like this complete narcissist.
[18:55]I know you give her a backstory that makes us somewhat sympathetic, but like not enough.
[18:59]Tell me, tell me about that.
[19:01]Oh, yeah.
[19:02]I totally agree.
[19:04]Tessa wolf.
[19:05]I mean, I had to work quite hard to not make her real pants my body, but she is, she's
[19:12]is an awful sort of snobbish prejudice, very judgmental person who and a troublemaker.
[19:19]She really has had, she's had some disappointments in her life.
[19:23]She loves her son too much, but in the wrong way.
[19:27]And she's responsible for really fair, a lot of trouble that Beth finds herself in.
[19:34]She just is, yeah, she was great fun to write.
[19:39]I suppose I, there is a one single person that I've based her on, but actually, there
[19:45]is a line in the book.
[19:47]I'm prepared to out them.
[19:48]I went, no names.
[19:49]Yeah, I would remember staying with somebody's parents.
[19:53]They were such snobs when I was like 20 or something, and we all had dinner with the parents.
[20:00]and then I stood up and I started to pile the plates one on top of each other and he said,
[20:04]we don't stack in this house and it was like, and I was so crushed. So that went in the book.
[20:11]That is so funny. So I do know if you sort of, yes, not as bad as Tessa, but yeah, I've seen,
[20:19]I've seen a few people with traits like that. Not to throw my mom under the bus or anything,
[20:24]but she also has a stacking issue. Yeah. And maybe it must be bad manners or something.
[20:30]I guess so. I don't know. But now I've like, you know, now I take pride in how many I can put on my
[20:36]arm at the same time. We all are reactions to how we grew up or something like that. You mentioned
[20:42]you had been early on talking to film producers. Is there, I know there, you put in your bio on
[20:48]Instagram that there is a film in the works. Can you talk about that or? I can only say that they
[20:53]bought the option. It's really exciting. And it's on the team who made the crawdad. So it's
[20:59]a partnership between Sony 3000 pictures and Hello Sunshine. And it's in development. That's
[21:08]what that's as much as I know. But I'm, I'm really, I think they've attached scriptwriters.
[21:14]So fingers crossed. I would just mean the world to me to see those characters on screen.
[21:20]I feel like I've already watched the movie. Like I feel it's all in my head. I feel like it's
[21:25]so visual the way you wrote it. I was living. I love that. That's exactly how I feel.
[21:30]I just feel like I'm just saying it. Yeah. Well, you don't have to come to Dulce. And then you can
[21:38]see the landscape. Oh, I would love to. Oh my gosh. That would be amazing. Well, how fun to get
[21:43]to go through all that casting and everything. I have to say this is literally the only book in my
[21:49]lifetime ever where I handed it to my son who I like read with every night. And I handed it. And I
[21:55]was like, I can't like just tell me what it says on the when it was the verdict. I just like couldn't
[22:01]read it myself. I just couldn't. I was like, Oh my God. Tell me. No, tell me. Okay. Tell me.
[22:07]Oh, I love that. That's so great. Anyway, it was, um, yeah, very immersive and everything,
[22:15]which character do you miss the most? Who you wish you could continue writing about if anybody
[22:20]or would you continue writing about anybody? That's a really good question. It might be Frank.
[22:26]I guess all I don't know. I really miss Beth and Gabriel. And actually, I've got a playlist and I
[22:34]I've got two playlists. I've got a broken country playlist, which is on Spotify, which is kind of like
[22:39]songs from the book and particularly, um, a song that makes me think of Frank and Beth is
[22:46]Elvis can't help falling in love because they're at the wedding and they're dancing. And so
[22:53]when I sort of miss the characters, I know it sounds a bit sad, but I put the playlist on and then
[22:58]I can just sort of get back there with them. I think Frank, I'm going to choose Frank because
[23:03]he was the one when the book was really hard. It was always because of Frank. I went back
[23:09]and I needed to know how his life ended and like would be nice to know the how it carried on.
[23:15]So yeah, I'm going to go with Frank. Maybe you could do one of those like bonus chapters,
[23:21]you know, it's just your imagination and I don't know. It's almost like it doesn't count,
[23:26]but it's we get to peek into your brain or what might happen. Yeah, that would be brilliant.
[23:32]It would be fun. That and some sort of a destination, you know, broken country house where we could
[23:38]all go and groups could gather and, you know, experience the farming. I mean, that would be
[23:43]so good to say, well, yeah, my house is, you know, it's definitely authentic. Yeah, we've,
[23:50]I've just invited myself to your house. Basically, what happened? So
[23:55]I've actually come in part of the tour. I would take you to the broken country tour, I'll take you
[24:00]to the pub, the compasses, because it's exactly like it is in the book. It's really oldy,
[24:07]it's like this 16th century coaching in. It's amazing. I mean, literally in the book,
[24:14]I feel like I could hear the door open, right? It's just like, yeah, yeah, it's just so great.
[24:20]It's like straw dogs. You know, the film when they everyone turns around, it's not like that.
[24:25]It's much than that, but that's what I sort of picture. Oh my gosh. Wait, so are you writing anything
[24:31]else now? I started something and it was a sort of an old idea, which I kind of revived,
[24:38]and I was all guns blazing. I've got what I've got is a setting and a family and it's a sort
[24:44]of cliff top hotel. So I've got that, but funnily enough, I actually sort of haven't really got
[24:49]time at the moment, but I started. I wrote 5,000 miles. I'm like, yes, I'm in, brilliant. And then
[24:55]there was a thread that had a hospital psychiatrist in it and a friend of mine very kindly
[25:00]organized for me to go to this hospital and have a tour, which was amazing. And I met the
[25:05]psychiatrist and that was amazing. She was very generous and she gave me so much really colorful
[25:11]stuff. And then when I got home, I went, oh, I don't want to write it anymore. So unfortunately,
[25:17]I don't want to write about a hospital psychiatrist. So I'm looking for inspiration.
[25:22]Wow. Well, I'm sure. But I've got half an idea, I would say.
[25:26]Wow. Amazing. Okay. What advice would you give for aspiring authors, particularly on the keep
[25:32]going variety and why you didn't give up on this project? Yeah, 100%. I mean, there are two things
[25:40]I would say persistence and not giving up is everything. And I did give this book up twice.
[25:46]I was actually advised to give it up. And I did and I started writing this new book and then I
[25:52]was like, I can't bear not to write it or to be with these characters. And so I think keeping
[25:58]going, accepting that it's just not going to be as good as the idea in your head at the beginning.
[26:04]And it's, you know, really, it might be 20 drafts and that's fine. You just have to keep going
[26:09]because the more you keep going, the more you edit. And also, the more you step away and have
[26:15]a break because I think those breaks really helped me. And then go back to it with fresh eyes,
[26:20]the more you will eventually get there. And one other thing that I think I've learned with
[26:26]this book is to be brave in your writing. And I think if you're writing something, of course,
[26:33]everyone says right what you know, but I think if you're writing something that you think,
[26:37]oh, I don't know if I can write like that. Like, for example, for me to write a courtroom drama,
[26:43]it's almost always when you push yourself to do those things that the best things come.
[26:48]That's what I've learned. And so I think don't be afraid of things you think you can't
[26:53]write subjects that you think you don't know enough about, you know, like farming even,
[26:57]because actually half the fun is the research. So I think being a little bit brave and also just
[27:02]keep going, that's it. I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, Claire, I'm so excited for all the exciting,
[27:11]fabulous things to come with this book once it comes out. I am just so enamored by it and so
[27:18]excited for you. So thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much. I've loved chatting to you. Thank
[27:23]you for having me. Okay. Have a great day. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to
[27:30]totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show,
[27:36]tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word.
[27:42]Thanks so much. Oh, and bye the books.