Jacqueline Friedland, COUNTING BACKWARDS
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[0:44]Jacquelyn Freeland, who goes by Jackie, is the author of Counting Backwards A Novel.
[0:49]Jackie is the USA Today and Amazon Best-selling author of Both Historical and Contemporary
[0:54]Women's Fiction.
[0:56]She is also, by the way, a contributor to on being Jewish now, and we have done many events
[1:00]together and have more coming.
[1:02]A graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, and NYU Law School.
[1:06]She practiced as a commercial litigator for as long as she could stand it.
[1:10]After determining that office life did not suit her, she began teaching at the Benjamin Cardosa
[1:14]School of Law in Manhattan and working on her first book.
[1:17]She soon returned to school to earn her MFA from Sarah Lawrence College, graduating from
[1:21]the program in 2016, and publishing her first novel shortly thereafter.
[1:25]Her books have been awarded the 2020 and 2021 gold medals in fiction from readers' favorite,
[1:31]and have been named a Best Indie Book of 2021 by Kirkus Reviews, the She reads Best Book
[1:36]Club Pick of 2021, and a Women's Fiction Writers Association star finalist for 2022.
[1:44]Jackie regularly reviews fiction for trade publications and appears at schools and other locations
[1:48]as a guest lecture.
[1:50]This is her fifth novel.
[1:51]Jackie lives in Westchester, New York, where there has been four children and two very
[1:55]bossy dogs.
[1:56]Welcome, Jackie.
[1:57]Thank you so much for coming on to talk about counting backwards.
[2:00]Congratulations.
[2:01]Thank you.
[2:02]I'm so excited to be here.
[2:04]Yay.
[2:05]Wow.
[2:06]This book was really good.
[2:07]You did a great job, and I learned so much.
[2:09]I found it so fascinating.
[2:11]It ends up being like this empowering, like, Aaron Brockovich style, unexpected story in
[2:18]a way that you go into it with, like, a marriage and a relationship.
[2:22]And it's like the slow-burn that becomes this fabulous, wide story that applies so much
[2:28]to today.
[2:29]Anyway, well done.
[2:31]Great job.
[2:32]Thank you.
[2:33]Thank you so much.
[2:34]I started with the marriage as a main plot point, because I think a lot of times when
[2:40]women take on these hard cases, you know, it does impact so much of their personal lives.
[2:45]And so there is the bigger, you know, legal question and the political situation.
[2:50]But there's also how it's impacting her personally.
[2:52]And I wanted to show that.
[2:53]And so much revolves around fertility and our desires and our family and the losses that
[3:00]we've had versus what we want to create and why and all of that.
[3:04]Why don't you go back and just summarize the plot of the book.
[3:07]Okay.
[3:08]So the story is about a young attorney who goes, she takes on a pro bono immigration case,
[3:13]contrary to her usual corporate life.
[3:15]And she goes into an immigration detention center to meet her first client.
[3:20]And it's an all-female center.
[3:22]And while she's there, she begins to suspect a pattern of medical abuse relating to the
[3:27]women's right to reproduce.
[3:30]And when she tells people, nobody believes her, nobody supports her.
[3:33]She only has the support of her elderly grandmother.
[3:37]And she decides that she has to go it alone and take this case and defend these women
[3:43]in no matter it costs her in her marriage, in her job, and so on.
[3:46]And then chaos ensues.
[3:49]And you used to be a lawyer, right?
[3:51]So this comes from a I did.
[3:53]And this, tell me about finding this case and I mentioned it at the end in a note, but tell
[3:58]me about this whole thing.
[4:01]So first of all, when I was a lawyer, I worked in a big New York City firm where I was thrilled
[4:06]when I got to take on a pro bono immigration case because I really was not interested in representing
[4:11]the tobacco clients fighting against each other that I was doing.
[4:15]And so that was one data point.
[4:16]But when I was a senior in high school, my history teacher told us to choose any Supreme
[4:23]Court case, 1900 to 1945, and we were going to be married to that case for the semester.
[4:28]We were going to write a paper.
[4:29]We were going to do a project.
[4:30]So I go off to the library and I'm thumbing through cases and everything is boring.
[4:35]And then I stumble onto this case called Buck versus Bell, which if you've ever read a Supreme
[4:39]Court case, the opinions tend to be very long and dry.
[4:43]And this one was like three paragraphs.
[4:46]And it was about a young woman in 1927 named Carrie Buck, who had been deemed feeble-minded
[4:52]as they called it at the time.
[4:54]And they wanted to sterilize her against her will.
[4:57]And she was 17 years old at the time that this was happening to her.
[5:00]I was 17 at the time I was learning about it.
[5:03]My mom happens to be a professor of special ed.
[5:06]So she was aware of this case and brought to my attention that Carrie Buck was not actually
[5:10]feeble-minded or in any way limited.
[5:13]She was of average intelligence.
[5:14]And she lost her case and was sterilized against her will.
[5:19]And side note, this case is still good law in the US today.
[5:24]And these were like these great humanitarian justices who ruled in favor of this.
[5:28]They compared it to vaccinating yourself to protect society.
[5:32]And this was going to be protecting society from more offspring that might have somewhat
[5:36]flaws as they deemed it.
[5:38]And so this case really stuck with me.
[5:41]And when I actually had thought about over the years, like how could I bring it to people's
[5:46]attention?
[5:47]And it just sort of stayed with me.
[5:48]And then in 2020, I was reading the news.
[5:51]And there was a headline that said, the uterus collector.
[5:54]So I'm like, what is this?
[5:56]And I click on it.
[5:57]And it was a story about an immigration detention center in Georgia where the women there
[6:03]were claiming that they were being sterilized without their consent.
[6:06]So of course, my mind immediately went back to Carrie Buck.
[6:10]And I had kind of always wanted to tell her story.
[6:12]And I saw a path through which I could tell both stories.
[6:16]And I have to say the federal case out of Georgia is still pending a class action in
[6:22]federal court.
[6:23]There was a congressional investigation.
[6:25]And I also have to add that they are still just allegations.
[6:28]And my book is entirely fictional.
[6:30]But you didn't have to consult a lawyer on this or anything.
[6:35]Exactly.
[6:36]Oh my gosh.
[6:39]Well, it tackles all these big issues, but it starts very, very small.
[6:43]I mean, you start the book in the bathroom, like, on the most mundane thing you can think
[6:48]of, right?
[6:49]Getting ready with your husband in the morning and like how he looked and like the way
[6:53]you describe them.
[6:54]You can just see the whole thing just so clearly like this is a movie scene.
[6:58]And then you watch is what happens when life sort of piles onto a marriage and a relationship
[7:04]or like what happens to both parties and how do you know when it's right or wrong?
[7:12]How do you know if it's gone too far or not?
[7:14]Is it circumstance?
[7:16]Is it compatibility?
[7:17]Like somehow through this legal case and the pressure of that and the infertility and
[7:23]all of it that put on this couple, you can explore those hard to tease out emotions
[7:29]like so well.
[7:30]So tell me about that.
[7:33]So I'm sort of fascinated by the idea of mediocre marriages and those marriages and when
[7:40]to stick it out, I think that if there's children in the relationship I err on the side
[7:45]of sticking it out, but that's, I don't know, it depends on the situation.
[7:49]But so I just wanted to explore what would happen.
[7:54]So I know that when couples are trying to have a baby that can put a lot of strain on the
[7:58]relationship if it doesn't happen exactly as they hoped and as quickly as they hoped.
[8:02]And I also know just from being a woman who wanted to be a mother and is a mother that when
[8:08]you're trying to get pregnant the stress of that and the fear of what if it doesn't happen
[8:13]and how you can start to act in ways that you would never normally act and that you know
[8:16]are illogical and the superstitions build up and just sort of these, you know, your husband
[8:21]starts to call you crazy and how that can impact a marriage.
[8:26]And then as the book unfolds, it turns out that like these two are not quite as aligned
[8:32]in their career goals for themselves as they are for, you know, they thought they both had
[8:37]the same goals as each other and it's not quite so.
[8:41]And how is that going to be because that was like a level on which they really connected
[8:44]and now they don't have that to share and in fact it's causing them strife.
[8:49]So it's, you know, and then I think there's also there's in the background, Jessa, the
[8:55]main character had miscarried in the past and so that was some trauma that they dealt
[8:59]with together but it just complicates matters going far and forward.
[9:04]So I just sort of wanted to play with that at like at what point do you say like mediocre
[9:09]is not enough?
[9:10]I must say before I got to worst, I was Googling articles like how do you know what it's
[9:16]time to get to work?
[9:18]Where is the guidebook, answer, what's the, I know, I stopped looking.
[9:23]I was like, wait, if I'm Googling this, I already know the answer, but it's fine, it's
[9:27]fine.
[9:29]You have a very sad backstory to inform us how an added level of desperation for why Jessa
[9:37]really wants a baby biologically, which is she's lost both her parents in this car crash.
[9:42]She feels responsible for it because they were on their way home from parent teacher
[9:46]conference, which is like such a sad detail, oh my gosh, I always worry when I'm a parent
[9:52]teacher conference.
[9:53]Like what if something happens when I'm here and I mean, you know, as anyway, so tell me
[9:58]you about about.
[10:00]that particular backstory piece.
[10:03]So I, they're part of it is, you know,
[10:07]you have to think about what would make somebody want
[10:10]their own biological child so desperately
[10:13]because, you know, adoption is an option.
[10:15]surrogacy is an option.
[10:16]Like egg donors, all of that,
[10:18]thank goodness in our modern society,
[10:20]people have choices.
[10:21]So why would there be this woman
[10:23]who so desperately wants her own biological child?
[10:27]So she needed to want that in order for her
[10:31]to feel this conflict with the women
[10:34]and the detention facility to not just,
[10:37]to feel it so viscerally and so deeply
[10:39]what's being taken away from them
[10:40]when they are being sterilized.
[10:43]And in the same way as Carrie Buck,
[10:44]who also in the time at which she was sterilized,
[10:47]did not have all of the medical options that we have.
[10:50]And, you know, the saddest part I think about Carrie Buck
[10:53]or one of the saddest parts is that if you look back
[10:56]to her early childhood,
[10:57]she really loved taking care of her younger sibling animals.
[11:02]And there's records of that.
[11:03]And it's just especially heartbreaking
[11:05]that she really wanted children.
[11:07]And there was no option for her.
[11:09]So I just, and also, you know,
[11:11]with Justice Parents gone,
[11:13]she also only has her grandmother
[11:15]who is so much older and so loving.
[11:17]But she missed out on that,
[11:19]on so much of that parent child relationship
[11:22]and had it this other way where, you know,
[11:24]attendance and stores were assuming
[11:26]that her grandmother was her mother,
[11:28]where she had to miss the daddy daughter dance at school.
[11:31]And all of these little heart breaks leading up to
[11:34]the joy I think she thinks she's gonna have
[11:36]when she has a baby and she thinks maybe she'll see,
[11:39]you know, her dad smile or her mom's nose
[11:41]and it will bring back a little piece of what she lost
[11:44]as a kid.
[11:45]And when that becomes difficult for her,
[11:46]it's especially trying.
[11:49]Well, you really nailed that feeling of, you know,
[11:53]just waiting to get pregnant
[11:54]and wondering if you're responsible
[11:56]and how everybody says don't stress.
[11:59]You're like, I'm not stressed.
[12:00]I'm not stressed.
[12:03]I can handle it.
[12:05]You're not stressed.
[12:06]Yeah, it's like the ridiculous.
[12:08]I mean, the stress of modern life,
[12:10]you can't get, you cannot escape that.
[12:12]Like it is omnipresent, but anyway.
[12:15]And there's also the issue that no matter how much
[12:17]people say it's, you know, we are getting pregnant.
[12:21]I think when it comes down to it,
[12:23]the body, the person with the body that's supposed
[12:26]to hold the baby feels pressure that cannot be described
[12:30]or understood by the other partner at that time.
[12:33]Yes.
[12:34]And I also found it interesting that his name's Vance, right?
[12:37]Vance?
[12:38]I found it interesting that he was like,
[12:40]am I not enough for you?
[12:42]Cause like I don't usually hear that point of view
[12:45]and he's like, I know we both want a baby
[12:47]but like I'm okay with it if we don't have it
[12:49]and like, I don't feel like you're okay with just me.
[12:53]Right. Yeah, no.
[12:54]And I think that part of it is that they're still
[12:56]relatively newly married.
[12:58]They're still young.
[12:59]There's plenty of time.
[13:00]They have, they are a family or a couple with me
[13:03]and so there are options.
[13:05]And Jessis is so single-mindedly focused
[13:08]on having the biological child that I think it does,
[13:11]it does feel reasonable for him to question, you know.
[13:14]But here I am.
[13:15]I'm like, will you have me?
[13:18]I also love just how realistic it was for,
[13:22]I felt like I was the main character,
[13:24]just like going into the, in the pro bono and the jail
[13:28]like meeting with Isabella and the other people
[13:31]who she ends up talking to and nurses and all of these people
[13:35]and she's nervous at first.
[13:37]Like she's like, what am I doing?
[13:39]How can I help?
[13:40]And they even have this like really playful interaction
[13:42]like, okay, you and your fancy pens or whatever.
[13:45]But you see her gaining confidence throughout
[13:47]and honestly just like knocking it out of the park
[13:50]at the end, but we get to go on that whole journey with her
[13:52]which is almost like empowering is reader, right?
[13:55]Like we are gaining confidence as she is gaining confidence
[13:58]and it's like such a payoff.
[14:01]Like there's such a payoff at the end.
[14:02]Talk about that and how she talks about freezing
[14:05]and the role of sort of trauma and all of that.
[14:08]So I wanted, one of my favorite things to do
[14:11]when I'm learning more about a subject
[14:14]is to have to learn along with the character
[14:16]and sort of show a little bit of like how that journey was
[14:19]for me and to kind of put that in there.
[14:22]And so I did do a pro bono immigration case as an attorney
[14:26]but the guy who I was representing
[14:29]was not detained at the time.
[14:30]So it was very different to came to our fancy offices
[14:33]and you know, everything was taken.
[14:34]We got little finger sandwiches and stuff.
[14:36]So this was very different.
[14:38]And I actually, I reached out to a number of different
[14:41]human rights organizations that put me in touch
[14:44]with people who are currently incarcerated
[14:46]and they have these like pen pal programs
[14:49]where you can either write letters
[14:50]or you can video conference.
[14:51]So I was video conferencing with different people
[14:54]and learning a lot through them and through hearing from them.
[14:58]And so I wanted to kind of give Jessa that same journey
[15:02]of sliding little bits and bits
[15:05]until she really understood it.
[15:07]And you know, which at the same right like
[15:09]as neither Jessa nor I are the ones being detained
[15:12]or the ones who came to a new country.
[15:13]So I wanted also to show that, you know,
[15:16]I like we can never completely understand.
[15:19]But Jessa also has the complication
[15:21]that as a child who suffered a trauma,
[15:23]she does have this freeze response
[15:25]when she gets overwhelmed or she gets frightened
[15:27]where she just, you know, some people see an accident
[15:31]about to happen and they run into fix it,
[15:32]other people freeze because it's so scary.
[15:34]And that's her response.
[15:37]And when she first goes into the detention facility
[15:40]and begins to process the fact that this woman
[15:43]might be deported and it's all on Jessa
[15:46]to save her from that fate.
[15:47]And she has family in the US and her daughter is here.
[15:51]And if she fails, this woman's whole life
[15:54]is gonna change in the negative way most likely.
[15:58]And so that sort of, she gets this feeling
[16:01]over her body where she just, it's too much.
[16:04]And she's her freezing.
[16:07]And then she remembers sort of some of the tactics
[16:10]that her therapist from way back when taught her.
[16:13]And she has this vague memory of things her parents did
[16:16]for her and she says, this woman I can't freeze.
[16:19]This, it's not an option now.
[16:20]And she, she pushes herself forward.
[16:22]Well, it was very empowering to read.
[16:25]I like how you, I very much like how you did that.
[16:28]And yeah, it was, it was really awesome,
[16:31]especially in light of just all the immigration stuff
[16:33]in the news now and how you put a face
[16:37]and a family to it.
[16:38]And he let someone who's like,
[16:40]what would I do in Mexico?
[16:41]I haven't even been there since I was three.
[16:43]Like how could I possibly, you know,
[16:45]so I just, that perspective was very nuanced
[16:48]and well, I like how you did that.
[16:51]Thank you.
[16:51]And then I wanted to talk about,
[16:52]but maybe I should just call you after
[16:54]because you do something so cool,
[16:56]but I don't wanna give it away with the backgrounds,
[16:59]like the family backgrounds of both of them
[17:01]which come out, you know, sort of three quarters
[17:03]the way through, I don't know,
[17:04]where there's something, they feel very diametrically
[17:07]opposed.
[17:07]And I guess this could be really anything right
[17:09]when you uncover more information about
[17:11]your family of origin.
[17:12]What does that do to your relationship
[17:14]and your sense of self in the now?
[17:16]So tell me about that.
[17:18]But so I first, so Eugenics is at play in this book.
[17:22]And I'm gonna also try to answer without spoilers.
[17:25]And I've actually been fascinated by Eugenics
[17:28]since I read the book versus bell case.
[17:30]And I came to learn that Eugenics, American Eugenics
[17:35]and the study, so they're sorry, backing up.
[17:38]There was a science lab in Cold Spring Harbor, New York
[17:41]where it was like the heart and soul
[17:44]of the Eugenics research.
[17:46]I grew up in Sioset, like a walking distance from this lab.
[17:50]I'm just just there.
[17:52]So the bounce family entertainment center.
[17:55]Yeah, it's very crowded.
[17:56]I would not recommend it on a Saturday, but okay.
[17:59]So I just, it's like, I always felt like,
[18:01]oh my gosh, how was that lab?
[18:03]Like, literally in our backyard
[18:05]and it was where all this Eugenics research came from.
[18:07]And there's something, there's something very interesting
[18:09]about the idea of Eugenics to me
[18:11]that you can breed things like fruits and vegetables
[18:15]and animals to get the stronger, quote unquote,
[18:17]better version of this thing.
[18:19]And it's like you have to, it, you pause for a second
[18:23]when someone says like, well, what if we could
[18:25]breed out disease?
[18:26]And what if we could, you know, and things like that?
[18:28]And it's sort of like you have to think it through
[18:30]and it doesn't, it doesn't work.
[18:32]And so anyway, where I was going earlier
[18:36]is that American Eugenics were actually a large part
[18:39]of what led to the Holocaust in Germany.
[18:41]They, it was the research here that was funded
[18:43]by these great philanthropists like Vanderbilt and Carnegie
[18:46]and, you know, Kellogg, like all these people,
[18:48]we think of it's super wonderful.
[18:50]And they, the research done here inspired the Germans
[18:54]that, oh, we can cleanse the race.
[18:56]So while Jessa is working on her case,
[19:00]she discovers a connection to that Eugenics movement
[19:05]that she didn't know existed for her.
[19:09]And her husband, Vance, is the grandson of Holocaust
[19:13]survivors.
[19:14]And it's a complicated topic.
[19:17]I'm really trying not to like give anything right, you know?
[19:20]Well, it was a nice, nice contrast.
[19:22]And even having a survivors descendant for Vance's family,
[19:27]I mean that, that adds another layer of fertility
[19:31]and perpetuation of the Jewish race and, you know,
[19:34]everybody feel like all Jewish people feel that pressure
[19:36]like that we're all like, oh gosh, you know,
[19:39]we've got a contribute here.
[19:41]One thousand percent.
[19:42]I mean, that's, I feel like my husband was like,
[19:44]we're stopping at four kids,
[19:45]but what about our responsibility?
[19:47]I'm like, I think four is enough.
[19:49]I feel like I actually did better than four,
[19:51]even though I have four kids because both my husband
[19:53]and my ex-husband's new wife converted to Judaism.
[19:56]So I feel like I really got sex.
[19:57]Yeah, you did it.
[19:59]Yeah.
[20:00]Where is where is my prize?
[20:04]Oh my gosh. Was it always called county backwards?
[20:07]No, it was originally called good breeding.
[20:10]Okay, I love the reference to, you know, anything fertility.
[20:14]I think I'm like borderline obsessed with fertility and creating families.
[20:19]And then it was count backwards from 10, which we decided was too long.
[20:24]And then it was the best parts of us, which I actually might have been my favorite title.
[20:31]The only problem is it sounds like a romance.
[20:33]But it's sort of when you know what the book is about.
[20:37]And it's actually like maybe referencing body parts and DNA.
[20:41]I just thought it was a very fitting title.
[20:44]But counting backwards, the title relates to something that Jess's father used to
[20:50]say to her when she was growing up.
[20:51]And it's sort of like a mantra that keeps her going forward.
[20:54]And I also sort of like how it's about looking back into the past.
[20:58]And so I felt good about the title when we settled on it.
[21:01]No, it's perfect.
[21:02]I just, I had a feeling it wasn't the first one.
[21:04]I don't know why, but probably because like,
[21:06]no books have their original title.
[21:08]No, I like the double meaning of it too,
[21:10]as, you know, the operations.
[21:12]Anyway, it was very cool.
[21:14]So how long did this book take to write?
[21:17]I would say that it was about a year, maybe a little bit over.
[21:21]And several times throughout the process, I would say to writer friends,
[21:25]this book is killing me.
[21:26]I can't do it.
[21:26]I'm not doing it.
[21:27]And I have two, like I have like a,
[21:30]I want to call it a writer's group, but it's really more of a support group
[21:32]with two other writers, Sam Woodruff and Brooke Foster.
[21:37]And three of us sort of meet and tell each other where we are with our plots.
[21:41]And what do we think?
[21:43]And, you know, give each other suggestions.
[21:45]And thanks to the two of them, they kept saying, no,
[21:48]it's you're, you're there.
[21:49]It's almost, you're almost done.
[21:50]You got to keep going.
[21:51]And I, I really owe them a debt of gratitude for pushing me to continue with it.
[21:56]Because it was, it was, I think the hardest book I've written so far,
[22:00]because there are just so many complicated issues at play.
[22:03]And it was really important to me to get them all right or as right as possible.
[22:08]So, but somehow, I don't know, it was, it was a good year for me in terms of like,
[22:13]my kid's not breaking arms.
[22:14]And, you know, it's why I somehow had a lot of time to write
[22:19]and, and I got it done.
[22:20]And yet, when I saw you on a plane recently, you're one of your kids was on crutches.
[22:25]So, you know, I guess this year is not as good.
[22:26]I'll not get struggling.
[22:30]Wait, so what are you writing now?
[22:31]So I, it's a, I'm still struggling with the description, but it's a,
[22:36]it's a contemporary fiction about an autistic teenager who goes missing.
[22:41]And the person who gets blamed for it is a D1 college athlete, a girl in sports.
[22:49]And she is actually potentially the only one who can save him.
[22:53]Interesting.
[22:54]All right.
[22:55]That's an exciting premise.
[22:56]And I have a very messy draft that is causing me stress because it's
[23:00]due soonish.
[23:01]Oh my gosh.
[23:02]My, this is a rapid, you write at such a rapid pace.
[23:07]So how much, I mean, this one involves the research.
[23:10]Like, how many are you, like, do you sit for certain hours a day?
[23:13]Do you have word counts?
[23:14]Like, how do you get it all done?
[23:15]I find I don't do word counts because when I have word counts,
[23:18]I find the quality of what I put down on the page suffers.
[23:21]I try to take every afternoon, like 12 to three, five days a week,
[23:26]which is not actually that much time, but it never happens that way.
[23:30]And so I end up, you know, in the evenings when my kids are finally,
[23:35]like doing their homework or, you know, I finding time on the weekends.
[23:40]And I somehow steal enough time that I get it done.
[23:43]I also really love being on an airplane because it's like forced work time.
[23:46]And I, I'm like trapped there.
[23:48]And there's no one, nothing, nowhere I can go or take anyone.
[23:51]So that's my, I need to travel more is the lesson.
[23:54]That's, that's my favorite place to write too.
[23:56]I always say that I feel like we should do like writer air or something.
[23:59]And I can all just like take off.
[24:01]I feel like they have Amtrak trains or people just write, but um,
[24:05]yeah, it's not a bad idea.
[24:08]Training retreat.
[24:10]And you also contributed to on being Jewish now.
[24:12]Thank you for that.
[24:13]Do you want to just like mention your essay in that book?
[24:16]I would love to mention my essay.
[24:18]So my essay is about my daughter's bought Mitzvah, which was in November of 2023,
[24:25]very shortly after October 7th and how we had to, we struggled with the idea of having a big
[24:31]celebration right after so much tragedy and while there was still ongoing tragedy and how we
[24:36]ultimately decided that our sorrow and joy could exist, could coexist.
[24:41]And I have to say that being a part of this book and in this moment has been like
[24:46]such a gift to me, the number of people who say, this is the exact book that we needed right now.
[24:52]And I feel like you hear some of it, but like it's being said to all the contributors.
[24:57]And I think it's really providing people with sort of like a written hug almost like a,
[25:04]we get it, we see you, you feel how we feel and we, you know, and I just think that um,
[25:09]it's where we're very lucky that you came up with this idea and that we were able to contribute
[25:14]and that people are out there reading it for 12th week on the bestseller list, yay.
[25:19]Well, I loved your essay in the book and I love doing the events with you that we've done so far
[25:23]and it's, it's more to come. So thank you for doing that and oh it's so much fun. Oh my gosh,
[25:29]it's been this nice little community that's formed, which has been an unanticipated benefit.
[25:35]What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[25:38]My best advice is to write and to, to say no when people ask you for thing to do things during
[25:45]the time that you wanted to be writing. The only caveat is when it's your kids need something,
[25:51]but aside from that, don't make lunch plans, don't, you know, go shopping with your friends or
[25:56]do, you know, watch binge watch TV at night with your husband and take fine some time and get
[26:02]in the chair and write because once you, I was actually just telling my daughter who's only 14
[26:08]that it doesn't matter so much if her teacher is good at writing because she wants to take a
[26:12]writing class and she was like, well, what if the teacher's not good? And I said it doesn't matter,
[26:15]just writing the more you write, the better you will get and the more you get down on the page,
[26:20]the more motivated you will be to keep going. So that is my best advice.
[26:24]That is great advice. Excellent. Well, Jackie, thank you. I really, really enjoyed your book.
[26:30]Totally impressed. Very thought provoking. I feel like it could be a movie. I feel like it's got that
[26:34]arc. So I hope you're pursuing that. Yeah. And thank you. Thanks for coming in. Thank you so
[26:41]much for having me. It's my pleasure. Okay. Talk soon. Bye, Jack. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to
[26:47]totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show,
[26:52]tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and spread the word.
[26:59]Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.