Dara Horn, ONE LITTLE GOAT: A Passover Catastrophe & PEOPLE LOVE DEAD JEWS: Reports from a Haunted Present
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[0:44]Sarah Horn is the author of One Little Goat, a Passover Catastrophe, and People Love Dead
[0:51]Juice, reports from a haunted president.
[0:53]Sarah is the award-winning author of six books, including People Love Dead Juice, which
[0:58]was a New York Times notable book in 2001, one of granted a magazine's best young American
[1:04]novelist.
[1:05]She is the recipient of three National Jewish Book Awards, among other honors, and she
[1:10]was a finalist for the Kirkus Prize, the Windgate Prize, the Simpson Family Literary Prize,
[1:15]and the Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Section.
[1:18]Her nonfiction work has appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The
[1:21]Washington Post, The Atlantic, Smithsonian, Tablet, and the Jewish Review of Books, among
[1:26]many other publications.
[1:28]Sarah received her doctorate in Comparative Literature from Harvard University, studying
[1:32]Yiddish and Hebrew.
[1:34]She currently serves as creative advisor for the Weitzman National Museum of American
[1:39]Jewish History.
[1:40]She lives in New Jersey, with her family.
[1:42]Welcome, Dara.
[1:43]Thank you so much for coming on totally book to the zibi to talk about your latest book,
[1:48]One Little Goat, illustrated also by Theo Elsworth, and then also People Love Dead Juice,
[1:53]because I just read that too.
[1:55]We have to talk about it.
[1:56]Okay, so in both books, you talk about how, as a kid, you wanted to stop time, essentially,
[2:07]and how at the end of every day you had this sort of anxiety, really, that it was, like,
[2:11]you could never get that date back, and what happens to all those past days, and I totally
[2:15]relate to that, like, oh my gosh, so much.
[2:18]Talk about that, and how it motivates some of your deep digging into history and the
[2:23]tell and everything else.
[2:25]Yes, so yeah, this was what motivated me as a writer, was this overwhelming sense of time,
[2:31]and, you know, as you said, like, when I was a child, you know, sort of constantly feeling
[2:35]like this was slipping through my fingers, which is a bizarre thing to think when you're
[2:39]like six, you think you'd feel that when you're a much older, but I was feeling this when
[2:43]I was six, and feeling also, as, you know, as I put it, yeah, what, like, this day that
[2:48]disappeared where did it go, and, you know, feeling, you know, very, you know, disturbed
[2:53]by this, and when I was writing as a child, like, I was always writing, it was like documenting,
[2:59]you know, that was my, I wasn't my motivated by making up stories, although, of course,
[3:02]I've since then published five novels, and now this book, you know, but that wasn't my
[3:07]prime motivation.
[3:08]It was capturing time, and, you know, and growing up in the Jewish community, and in
[3:14]this tradition, I felt very fortunate to discover like many, many centuries of people
[3:20]who, to my child's mind, seem to have solved this problem, because what I've discovered
[3:27]into a tradition is this extremely deep historical consciousness, where it isn't even
[3:35]just an awareness of the past, or, oh, this is a long tradition, there's this, and this
[3:41]part, I, you know, this, I was not articulating these things when I was six, just so, you
[3:44]know, I'm proud of this, but I mean, this is James S and what all our kids are doing.
[3:49]I was not like meeting, you know, like, Joseph, I am your Shami at sex, but, you know,
[3:54]at some point when I was reading Joseph, Joseph, I'm your Shami, who is this, you know,
[3:57]great, modern Jewish historian, passed away fairly recently in the past, I'm not 10 years.
[4:01]He has this book called Zahor, which means to remember, and he says in that that the
[4:05]idea of history is kind of alien to Jewish tradition, because in Jewish tradition, the foundation
[4:11]isn't history, it's memory.
[4:14]And what he means by that is, and he has a line in that book where he says, and I'm going
[4:19]to not get the wording right, but it's something like in Jewish tradition, the past
[4:23]was not a series of events to be contemplated at a distance, but rather a series of situations
[4:30]into which one is existentially drawn again, and that is, yes, that is very much my experience
[4:36]of Jewish life.
[4:37]And it's very much the way does the tradition is designed, right?
[4:40]So you have this idea that it wasn't just that generation of Israelites who were standing
[4:44]at Sinai to take, you know, to receive the Torah, it was all of their future descendants.
[4:49]You know, and of course, and for this, you know, Passover related book, it's this idea that,
[4:53]you know, in every generation, we see ourselves as if we personally came out of Egypt,
[4:56]and these persons obligated to see themselves as if they personally came out of Egypt.
[4:59]And I was tapping into that, and to the idea of the Tal, which, you know, I will sort
[5:05]of get to this, it's very foundational to this new book I published one little goat,
[5:11]the Tal is an archaeological mound that's made out of layers of civilization, and, you know,
[5:17]you find these in Israel where there's, it's, you know, there's like an artifice, it
[5:22]looks like a hill for the outside of its artificial hill, because it's all these ruins
[5:26]of different civilizational layers, one on top of the, the other, and so that the most
[5:30]recent layers are at the top, and then the oldest are at the very bottom.
[5:34]And, you know, to me, this was sort of this metaphor for Jewish life, and it's something
[5:39]I see in many different ways as a writer, I mean, as a scholar of Jewish literature,
[5:43]I set my doctorates in Hebrew and Yiddish literature, like you see it in the language
[5:47]people use where there's layers and layers.
[5:49]And I was thinking about this as I was writing one little goat, which is my first, you
[5:53]know, book for, as we say, young readers.
[5:56]And because I feel like there's something, there's a reason why that a lot of popular
[6:00]children's literature is some form of portal fiction, right, where it's like, you know,
[6:05]there's some portal to some world that's bigger than yours, right?
[6:08]You know, you go to this, you know, the track in King's Cross station, and then there's
[6:11]like, you know, a secret door, you know, there's the, the door of Narnia in the back
[6:16]of the wardrobe, like, there's a reason for that, which I think is that children's lives
[6:20]are very, like, very constrained, right?
[6:22]I mean, and they're always looking for some outlet to, some access point to get to this
[6:27]bigger world that's bigger than theirs.
[6:30]And that was my experience as a child, because I feel like, you know, first of all, you
[6:33]know, all children's lives are very constrained, but also I think there's something about
[6:37]American life in particular, which very, really pushes you to just be living in the present
[6:42]all the time.
[6:43]Like there's almost a rejection of history, this idea that like, oh, we're always making
[6:47]progress and, you know, the best is ahead and, you know, it doesn't matter where your
[6:51]parents came from.
[6:52]It's what you do with your, this, you know, the new opportunities you have.
[6:55]I mean, whether this is true or not irrelevant, this is like the ethos of the country.
[6:59]And in Judaism, it's kind of the opposite.
[7:01]I felt like I found that portal when I wouldn't have been able to use this language.
[7:05]But as a child, like I found that sort of outlet, I found where the disappearing days were
[7:10]inside this tradition.
[7:12]Wow.
[7:13]Well, the way you visually depicted it and with such humor in the book, I can't wait
[7:18]to give this to my kids, but it's good for grown-ups too.
[7:21]I mean, this is, it's just another way of framing it.
[7:26]And I always think about this too when we're at Seder, like, how many Seder's, like, what's
[7:30]going on in this part of the world and what happened at this person's family.
[7:35]And it's like mind boggling the scope of it, right?
[7:37]And it's all going on at the same time.
[7:39]And by you having the goat and the main character sort of go into his family life in different
[7:44]parts.
[7:45]And then, you know, Sigmund Freud's mom and, like, all these places through history
[7:50]just to sort of understand where he is right then and to get a better context for his
[7:55]own family.
[7:56]It was, like, a genius way to reframe it and make it funny and I love the scapegoat.
[8:02]I mean, it was, you know, it's such an original way to tell a story that has literally
[8:07]probably been told more than any other story ever.
[8:10]Thank you.
[8:11]Well, yes.
[8:12]I mean, I, you know, yes, it's a, you know, because as you know, in publishing, it's
[8:15]like, you have to be like, it's not even just like, oh, this is a children's book versus
[8:18]an adult book.
[8:19]It's like, you know, oh, this is middle grade, oh, this is, you know, obviously, like,
[8:24]you know, for the publisher's sake, like, this is a book for, you know, ages, whatever,
[8:29]so whatever, you're right.
[8:30]It's a book for anybody.
[8:31]And I mean, the reality is like, this is, I feel like this is a book I was born to write.
[8:35]I mean, this is like my, I don't know, 7th or 8th book, I don't know, but, but, and all
[8:40]my other books are dealing with the same question, right, about how you find yourself
[8:44]in all my books about Jewish culture, but it's oh, all my books are about this sort of
[8:47]question of how the past lives lives within the present.
[8:51]This is just like the most direct version of it.
[8:54]And, you know, and as you say, yeah, the funniest and, yeah, I mean, it's, yes, I think there's
[8:58]if we want to say a little more about just what the, the frame is.
[9:02]Yeah, frame this right.
[9:03]Yes, yes.
[9:04]So this one little goat, it's a, yeah, it's a graphic double for young readers, whatever
[9:08]that means.
[9:09]It's for whatever reader you want.
[9:10]Anybody who knows how to read basically, it is a book about a family who's at their
[9:14]passive or Seder.
[9:16]And they cannot find the offy common, which is this piece of lots of that's hidden
[9:20]during the meal.
[9:21]And that's needed to end this ceremony of the Seder.
[9:25]And because no one can find this offy common, the Seder cannot end.
[9:29]And so this family is trapped at the Seder for six months, which for anyone who's been
[9:34]to like, you know, a long boring Seder, like, it's kind of a familiar feeling.
[9:38]And so, you know, there's, and also you could sort of tell I started thinking about this
[9:41]idea during COVID.
[9:43]So the Seder was trapped at this never ending Seder.
[9:46]And six months in, there's a knock on the door.
[9:48]And they're like, oh, maybe it's a lie to the prophet who's, you know, this, you know,
[9:52]legendary idea that this, you know, prophet shows up at the end of the Seder.
[9:56]And that they're like, it can't be the alleged of the prophet because we're not up to that
[9:59]part of the Seder yet.
[10:00]the word Seder beads order, there's, you know, it's like, well, no, it can't be. And so the oldest child
[10:04]goes to answer the door and it's a talking goat who says, I'm the scapegoat. I'm the reason for
[10:11]everyone's problems. And he says, I could help you find your offy COVID. I think I know where it is
[10:17]and then the kids like, great, where is it? And then the goat says, no, no, no, not where, when?
[10:22]And then he says, over the past six months, well, you've been sitting at this never-ending
[10:26]Seder, thousands of years of previous Seder's have accumulated underneath your Seder. And you
[10:31]now have to travel down into those previous Seder's to find this missing piece of months and bring
[10:36]your Seder to an end. And so, and yeah, so as you said, it becomes a journey through, I mean, it starts
[10:41]as a journey through his family's history. And it continues as a journey through Jewish history, which
[10:47]is essentially also his family's history, until you get to the night before the exodus at the very end.
[10:53]I guess, well, it was so cool. And even like, acknowledging the bravery of his great-grandmother and
[10:59]the Warsaw ghetto and like all the times where passovers weren't always so easy, right? Because,
[11:05]of course, the whole story is that it is not easy. I recently had Rabbi Raphael Schor on
[11:10]this podcast and he was talking again, just like you, like at Sinai, like we were all given
[11:17]how to behave. We were all like not just one person. And that is why we all go in the world trying
[11:23]to do good and all these things. And it's the mandate. It's like in our DNA. And that's sort of how
[11:30]we've ended up here, even though there always, like in your other book, you know, there always
[11:35]forces against us. Yes. Well, I mean, and this is, it's a story of, you have yes, the great-grandmother
[11:41]in the Warsaw ghetto is a moment of bravery, but they're all moments of bravery. Yes.
[11:46]Right? Because that's, you know, and sometimes it's, you know, in these dramatic historical circumstances,
[11:51]sometimes it's, you know, personal choices. And, but, you know, I mean, all of us are the only reason
[11:57]that we are still Jews today. Those of us who are participating in this tradition is because of
[12:03]these courageous choices that everybody before us made. Right? I mean, even in the best of
[12:08]circumstances, this was a counter-cultural choice for sure. And I mean, anybody who's raising
[12:13]Jewish children know that like this is, you know, it's an enormous amount of effort to maintain
[12:18]this tradition, you know, even in, you know, whatever version of that, whatever version of that
[12:22]tradition, it looks like it's a counter-cultural practice. And so yeah, it's always a matter of
[12:26]bravery. And also like, I mean, the Passover story, the Passover story is actually really scary.
[12:31]Yes. It's a really scary story. And it's very, you know, this is also a very counter-cultural now
[12:37]where it's like, you know, this is a really scary story. And not only are we like not given
[12:41]people trigger warnings, like the children are like the focus of this idea and the story.
[12:46]Yes. And that I think is also, I think, very empowering.
[12:49]The literal depiction of the firstborn child and the lamb's blood and all of that. And,
[12:55]you know, some of the skeletons and, you know, all of this is like, okay, yeah, this is not
[12:59]like a sweet bedtime story. It's supposed to always be a wake-up call. Like, we can never forget,
[13:05]we can never, we have to retell it over and over. And there are reasons why. And then,
[13:10]of course, things play out today. And we at least have the context for it.
[13:15]Right. Like, we know, maybe everybody else doesn't know. And as we are seeing in culture today,
[13:19]people don't totally get the whole story or understand. But we all know. I mean, it's in,
[13:25]it's in us. It's like part of the mandate is to know and learn and repeat.
[13:30]Well, it's part of the story. Right. It's part of the story. And, you know, this is,
[13:34]you know, there's another part of the Passover liturgy in the Hagara where it says,
[13:38]that in every generation, you know, people have risen up to destroy us to destroy the nation of
[13:44]Israel and God always saves us from their hands. So I mean, that's obviously, you know,
[13:48]that's a religious frame for this idea. But there's sort of this, there's a sense in which this
[13:53]tradition is not just about the past, but about preparing you. It's about preparing you for living
[14:00]in this counter-cultural civilization. It's funny to think of it as counter-cultural. And like,
[14:06]for me, it's just cultural. But it's, well, I think this is true for, you know, this is what
[14:13]Jewish civilization is. This is an ancient civil, you know, this is an ancient New Eastern
[14:18]civilization. There are lots of ancient New Eastern civilizations. And, you know, the radical
[14:23]ideas of this are counter-cultural, right? I mean, the radical idea of monotheism,
[14:28]right? refusal to bow to idols. We think of that today as like this, again, it's like,
[14:31]oh, it's a spiritual, it's a religious thing. This is a political movement in the ancient
[14:36]Near East where, you know, all these other cultures in the ancient Near East have lots of gods.
[14:40]And one of the gods is the dictator, right? I mean, that's what the Passover story is about.
[14:44]It's the pharaoh thinks that he's a god, right? All of these plagues and things are about the,
[14:49]you know, the pharaoh being defeated and revealed to not be a god. I mean, that is sort of the
[14:54]idea of that. And when the Jews and the ancient Near East said that they don't bow to idols,
[14:59]what they meant was that they don't bow to tyrants. Because that's what quote other gods were in that
[15:04]time. And, you know, that's what, and so this has always been this sort of anti-touranical movement,
[15:09]which is going to piss off tyrants. And that has always been true. So when I say counter-culture,
[15:15]you know, this is a culture that is not conforming to whether it's an empire or whatever,
[15:22]just a dominant society that goes to that dominant society and says, no, thanks.
[15:26]That is a very radical thing to do and it's never going to make you popular,
[15:30]but it is sort of this ultimate expression of integrity and freedom. And to me,
[15:36]that's what the Passover story really is about, is that the integrity and how to live
[15:41]a life of integrity and freedom and how to teach that to your children.
[15:46]No, you're absolutely right. Well, I feel like this is a good,
[15:49]hug goddess, you know, a God of plus, right? This should be at every seat at Passover. And
[15:55]we'll open up conversations. I feel like in a different way for people's families to connect and
[16:00]just another way into it that feels at once personal and universal.
[16:05]Yes. And I think also, I mean, as you said, like, it's also like, it's a lot of fun.
[16:09]Yes. Right. I mean, here, I'm talking about integrity and freedom, but, you know, as you said,
[16:13]like, this is a book where like, you know, you don't need Freud, but you need Freud's mom,
[16:17]right? And she's like, he never calls. It's the whole thing is hilarious when you're like,
[16:21]the tired mom, and I'm like, feel seen. Thank you for that. You know, like, yes,
[16:26]because I have a slash back to kids, small kids and other saders. And I'm like, oh, my gosh,
[16:31]you know, everyone is a character.
[16:33]Those are like, the names are like, you know, the exhausted mom, they're like, you know,
[16:37]the opinion needed aunt who's like, you know, but slavery is corporate.
[16:40]Totally. Totally. Oh, my gosh. So funny. And how did you come to work with the
[16:45]you elsewhere than this? Oh, my God. So this was, you know, I feel so fortunate to have
[16:51]be working with him. This was an idea that, you know, I had had this idea at one point and then
[16:56]kind of backburner it didn't really think about it. And then I was on a road trip to my family,
[17:00]we stopped at a comic book shop. And my kids came out with our arm loads of all these indie
[17:05]comics, including a really thick indie comic by Theo Elsworth called Capacity. And they were
[17:12]fighting over this book. Like, it was like, oh, it's my turn for it. No, no, you know, you already
[17:17]had it. And it was like, they could not get enough of this book. And I was like, what is this book
[17:20]that you guys bought? I don't know anything about comics. This is not my world. And I kind of borrowed
[17:24]it from them. But one point just to be like, what are you obsessed with? I was just enchanted by his
[17:28]artwork, like, first of all, hilarious, right? And he does these things where he makes these,
[17:34]you know, abstract ideas really literal. I remember some of the pages in that book where it was
[17:38]walking around with a yelling brain. And it was like this man, he had his head, he's like zipped open.
[17:44]And there was this like other man who was popping out of his head. And like, it was like,
[17:48]you know, then that man had another zipper on his head. It was just like just like really interesting
[17:52]and fun. And incredibly detailed and really beautiful and haunting. And I just,
[17:58]I just remember thinking like, when I saw that, I was like, oh my God, I see how this
[18:02]idea that I have could work. And I mean, I cold emailed him, you know, I'm thinking I'm like,
[18:07]your name is Theo Elsworth, you live in Missoula, Montana, you're probably not Jewish.
[18:12]I'm like, okay, I'm going to have like, I have this. I'm like, I wrote to him. I'm like,
[18:15]hi, love your work. I'm a writer. I have this idea. It's a little hard to explain deep breath.
[18:21]And he was totally game. Just so fantastic. It came up with all kinds of things. I would never have
[18:27]thought of. He just, it was, you know, working with him, which is amazing. He did a fantastic job.
[18:31]And I mean, he's an amazing artist. Wow. Well, congratulations. It's very cool. And fun and entertaining,
[18:37]but so much more than that. So I feel like it fits right in the graphic novel trend, you know,
[18:43]because I can't even be bothered to read novels anymore. So yeah, how cool. Just it's so nice to have
[18:51]a different way to think about things after so long. And just to touch on people of dead Jews,
[18:56]you're probably so tired of talking about it. You know, I was struck. I read, I read part of it
[19:00]over the break when I was in California. And then in reviewing part of it today,
[19:05]there's a whole scene where you're driving through the palisades, which gave me like goosebumps
[19:08]right here on a monthly driving. Yes. All of that. In fact, then I went on Instagram to see like,
[19:13]what happened to those houses that you mentioned the M. Now I can't remember the name, but now I'm
[19:17]following them. But yeah, but you talk about that in the context of how there was this one man
[19:24]who was such a helper and his whole story, Frederick. Oh, there's been fry. Right, right, sorry.
[19:31]One of the only Americans as we used to call racist Gentiles, right, who's one of the only
[19:35]Americans who was involved in rescuing people from Nazi persecution. Yeah. And how he basically
[19:41]perpetuated this artistic and literary community relocated to California. And yet why is he not known
[19:49]so publicly? I mean, there's so many people who have helped and so many people who have heard,
[19:54]but like, let's let's broadcast that story. I'm like, where is the documentary on this guy?
[20:00]I mean, there's been some things actually in that there was since the book came out.
[20:04]There were somebody made a Netflix series actually about how, oh my gosh.
[20:07]Okay.
[20:07]Well, now I can go watch that.
[20:09]Yeah, it was one of Darris's they haven't seen, but yeah.
[20:11]Well, tell me about when you wrote that book, it was obviously a couple of years
[20:15]ago you were responding still to the synagogue massacre.
[20:19]Now things have gotten arguably worse.
[20:22]But of course, it's all relative.
[20:25]It's all relative and you said in the book, you sort of become this reluctant
[20:29]op-ed person about all of this stuff and you didn't necessarily went to,
[20:34]but you're like, at least I know my history and I might as well be the person.
[20:37]So talk about it how you've sort of emerged as this sort of source and how your
[20:43]perspective on everything is so important and original and all of that.
[20:47]Oh, God.
[20:48]So yeah, so people love dead Jews, which yeah, I still can't believe I published
[20:51]or let me keep that title.
[20:53]People love dead Jews is a book about it's about the role that dead Jews play in
[20:57]non Jewish society.
[20:58]I hadn't even thought about it as a book about antisemitism, but that what this
[21:02]phrase means essentially is that most non Jewish societies only find Jews acceptable
[21:09]when Jews are powerless, whether that means politically impotent or dead.
[21:14]And I, you know, I started thinking about this, you know, about yes, like in 2018,
[21:20]I was asked by Smithsonian magazine to write a long piece for them about Aunt Frank.
[21:24]And I was dreading that assignment.
[21:27]And I remember thinking like, why don't I want to do this?
[21:30]And I remember this news story that I had read about something that happened at
[21:34]the Aunt Frank Museum in Amsterdam, where there was a young Jewish man working at
[21:37]that museum, the museum wouldn't let him wear his yarmica to work.
[21:40]They made him hide in her baseball hat and he appealed the decision to the board
[21:44]of the museum, the board of the museum deliberated for six months and then let him
[21:48]wear his yarmica to work.
[21:49]And I'm like six months long time for the Aunt Frank Museum to ponder whether or not
[21:54]it was a good idea to force a Jew into hiding.
[21:57]And I'm like, something that I've really found out something even similar
[22:01]had happened six months earlier with the museum's audio guy display where they
[22:05]have, you know, 15 languages to the audio guy that says, you know, English,
[22:08]there's a British flag, front say, there's a French flag.
[22:11]And then you get to Hebrew, no flag, no flag.
[22:14]I mean, they've since fixed these things.
[22:15]But I'm like, these are PR mishaps, but they're not mistakes.
[22:18]And that was this where I got this, you know, the first line of that essay is like,
[22:21]people love dead Jews, living Jews, not so much.
[22:24]But I've now like refined idea of this is that yes, Jews are only acceptable
[22:29]when they're powerless, when they're politically impotent or when they're
[22:32]dead.
[22:33]And I, yes, I published this book in 2021.
[22:37]And I just thought this was like, you know, sort of a detour for my fiction.
[22:40]I published five novels before this.
[22:42]And I was like, okay, I'm going to just get this out of my system.
[22:45]This book has eaten my life.
[22:46]You know, since this book came out, I mean, it was like just inundated
[22:50]with, you know, personal Jewish readers who were all coming to me with their
[22:54]horror stories.
[22:55]You know, I'm like, I'm not a therapist.
[22:56]You know, I don't, I don't even know like what I can possibly do for you.
[22:59]And you know, realized from that, like how much
[23:02]huge or this problem was that I ever thought it was.
[23:04]And also being, you know, inundated with non Jewish readers who were all, you
[23:09]know, I mean, yes, I get hate mail and all that.
[23:10]But like non Jewish readers who are basically saying, wow, I had no idea.
[23:14]How can I help?
[23:16]And, you know, so this book sort of made me into this national voice on this
[23:19]issue. And then, you know, after October 7th, I mean, I should say it already
[23:23]was in, I was sort of like this book term.
[23:25]I mean, I was, you know, they, I was one of the people who was contributing
[23:28]to the, in the Biden administration to like this, you know, whatever their
[23:32]national plan was to combat antisemitism, which I have to say, you know, I don't
[23:35]know that anyone ever joined a thing with this plan.
[23:38]Um, but I mean, you know, I wrote, I don't know, five or six patients of the
[23:41]plan.
[23:41]I mean, like I was really sort of involved in a lot of things that, you know,
[23:45]a person who just wrote a book comic book about a talking goat, you would not
[23:48]expect to be involved in.
[23:49]And then like that just exploded after October 7th.
[23:52]So I mean, in terms of what happened to me after that, the first thing
[23:55]happened was I, I was asked to, and I participated in this antisemitism
[24:00]advisory group to the now former president of Harvard, who did not take
[24:06]our advice, unfortunately.
[24:08]And it went really badly.
[24:10]In fact, it went so badly that then I got halted to Congress to testify about it.
[24:15]So I mean, I'm like, when I was part of this and I was part of this
[24:18]congressional investigation, I now have, you know, people just asking me
[24:23]constantly about this.
[24:23]And I, you know, I'm doing public speaking all the time about this
[24:26]topic and many, many audiences.
[24:28]And what I just started noticing was like the way I'm talking about this,
[24:30]it's very different from other people because it would often happen.
[24:33]It happened, it happened just this week at another college.
[24:36]I speak of these college campuses and there'll be people who show up in
[24:38]like, you know, their caffeine.
[24:39]They start, you know, heckling me, like asking hostile questions.
[24:43]I just answer the questions.
[24:45]And then they say, wow, I never thought about it that way.
[24:48]Thank you.
[24:49]And then it comes to me afterwards.
[24:50]They're like, this was really interesting.
[24:52]Where can I go to learn more?
[24:53]And then I would have like, non-Jewish readers at these events coming to me
[24:56]to be like, wow, do what you just said.
[24:57]This was amazing.
[24:58]You know, can I, can you come speak to my school?
[25:00]Can you come speak to my teachers?
[25:01]You know, and I was just like, no, because like, I'm me.
[25:05]And I, you know, like, I've got a plan to go to Phoenix tomorrow.
[25:08]Like, you know, and I don't have like a staff and, you know, this is just like,
[25:12]I'm a novelist whose next book is about a talking goat, right?
[25:15]Like, you know, this is like, you know, no, I'm not like well.
[25:18]And so what I now actually have done is I've started a nonprofit to address this issue
[25:22]and to sort of scale what I've been doing in terms of changing this conversation.
[25:26]And it's called Mosaic Persuasion.
[25:28]And the goal is to educate the broader American public about who Jews are,
[25:32]because that's what I saw was completely missing.
[25:34]It's like, you know, there are all these places where it's like,
[25:35]you have a required to learn about the Holocaust at school.
[25:38]You're not required to learn who Jews are.
[25:40]that we've outsourced to TikTok.
[25:41]So, you know, this is like a broader education problem, because I don't think that there's
[25:45]any possibility of combating it.
[25:48]You can't even understand what antisemitism is without understanding Jewish civilization,
[25:52]because it does have to do with this idea of opposition to tyranny.
[25:56]And I now have this sort of, I have a whole framework for it, because what I realize is the
[26:00]whole way that people are addressing this problem is on the antisemitic terms of the dominant culture.
[26:05]And that once you disrupt that frame, suddenly the whole conversation changes and people understand
[26:12]what you're talking about and see the problem.
[26:16]So, so we're starting this in K to 12, we have like workshops for teachers and stuff.
[26:20]If any of your listeners or educators are involved in, you know, whether it's at school or
[26:25]museums or interfaith groups or social media channels, we are building this out.
[26:28]So, but yeah, we're very new.
[26:30]Don't even have a website yet, but you can contact me through my website at darrowhorn.com
[26:34]if you're interested in this initiative. So, yeah.
[26:36]Well, that is super excited. I will contact you through your website.
[26:40]I'm interested. I, that is great. Clearly, what we're doing now is not working.
[26:45]So, by shifting the framework, hopefully we have more success.
[26:49]Yes, well, I think, and because I think that this, you know, this is really a problem that is
[26:53]the reason and it's a larger problem in our society because it's about the limits of living
[26:59]in a pluralistic democracy, right? It's like this test case for what does it mean to live with people
[27:04]who don't all agree. And obviously, this is a broader problem in American culture with the way
[27:08]this culture is polarized and sort of being able to be in conversation with people who are
[27:13]coming from a lot of different places that you don't agree with each other. And that is like
[27:17]something that Jewish tradition offers a master class in that.
[27:20]Wow. Okay. I am so, I mean, I was already so impressed with you, but just even getting to
[27:25]listen to you, I feel like I'm taking my own master class here. I feel like you should be teaching,
[27:30]I mean, you must teach, right? You must teach. I have in the past, but you know, as I said,
[27:35]like this is my, this is why, like, I need to figure out how to scale what I'm doing because right now
[27:38]it's like, you know, I have taught in universities and things in the past like, you know, courses and
[27:43]but I teach courses like, you know, you get it in Hebrew literature. That's actually my academic work
[27:47]is, but you know, need to be able to scale what I'm doing. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, let's keep talking,
[27:52]not now, but like offline. I want to keep talking about what you're doing.
[27:56]And congratulations on one little goat totally enjoyed it. We'll be sending it to everybody
[28:03]in my family, extended family. But it's way more fun. Way more fun than people have done. Yes.
[28:07]Yes. Yeah. A nice, sort of counterbalance. So thank you, Dara. This was really great. Thanks for
[28:13]talking. Thank you so much. Of course. Okay. Bye to be continued. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to
[28:20]Totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show,
[28:25]tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word.
[28:31]Thanks so much. Oh, and bye the books.