Melissa Wirt, I WAS TOLD THERE'D BE A VILLAGE: Transforming Motherhood Through the Power of Connection
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[0:44]Melissa Word is the author of, I was told there'd be a village, transforming motherhood
[0:48]through the power of connection.
[0:50]Melissa is the CEO and founder of Latcht Mama, a breastfeeding apparel company which has
[0:54]grown into a robust brand and community that counts close to half a million members and has
[0:59]been featured in media outlets ranging from business insider to USA Today to CBS this
[1:04]morning.
[1:05]Melissa and her husband, Eric, live with their six children outside of Richmond, Virginia.
[1:09]Welcome, Melissa.
[1:10]Congratulations on.
[1:11]I was told there'd be a village, transforming motherhood through the power of connection.
[1:17]Congrats.
[1:18]Thank you.
[1:19]Thanks so much for having me.
[1:20]Of course.
[1:21]And I loved doing our event together at the core club that was so much fun.
[1:23]So I'm glad we got an in-person experience too.
[1:27]Absolutely.
[1:28]Thank you.
[1:29]Is great in so many ways as a mom who has had many thoughts on friendship and the village
[1:37]and all that reading your book and having you be so authentic about your experience, but
[1:42]also analytic in the way you present a bunch of other stories of different people and
[1:48]even frameworks for us to use.
[1:51]Tell me a little bit and it's starting to get all like feeling like an impostor and
[1:54]admitting that.
[1:55]So it's kind of like a meta-introduction explain why you decided to write the book and let's
[2:03]go from there.
[2:04]Yeah.
[2:05]So about 10 years ago, I started a clothing brand and we continued to sell clothes throughout
[2:09]the past decade.
[2:11]But what I really saw that was the kind of the bread and butter of the brand was bringing
[2:15]moms together.
[2:16]And day after day, I saw just how much it almost like sponges we were to connection.
[2:22]And I also saw the roadblocks to it, the ways that we weren't always nice to each other.
[2:26]And I really wanted to dig in and try to give the world something other than an online
[2:31]community that was based on a breastfeeding clothing line.
[2:34]I knew I had learned a lot through kind of shepherding relationships and building online
[2:38]communities.
[2:39]And I also found myself completely alone.
[2:42]I didn't understand how I could be building this for all of these other people, but
[2:46]I wasn't doing the work myself.
[2:47]So I really wanted to kind of dig into like what that meant and what it felt like to build
[2:52]a village that I didn't have personally at the time.
[2:55]So meanwhile, you were living on a farm with six children and running a business and you
[3:02]start the book having had a miscarriage.
[3:04]And I won't like give away the end unless you want to talk about it, but you have like
[3:08]this very, you know, sort of poetic ending to the book, sort of wraps it all together
[3:12]and shows your progression and growth throughout the year of connecting and all of that.
[3:18]But it's not like you were just sitting around.
[3:20]I mean, yeah, I was I was moving and grooming for sure.
[3:23]I still am, but I think what was really interesting is that I think we all numb ourselves.
[3:28]I think we all choose different things, whether it be food, alcohol, you know, different
[3:33]different things that we do.
[3:34]Mine was accomplishments and saying busy, the more busy I stayed, the less I had to look
[3:39]at what was truly lacking in my life.
[3:42]I personally until I started writing this book did not understand the science behind loneliness
[3:47]and how important human interaction and whether it be small or deep meaningful relationships
[3:53]actually play into just us existing as human beings in general physically and mentally.
[3:59]So I think I had been running for a really long time.
[4:01]I didn't have to learn how to trust people or let people help me or do all of those
[4:06]things if I just stayed busy.
[4:09]And then the miscarriage knocked me on my butt and I was alone and we were at this farm
[4:14]and I didn't understand what was next, but I knew things had to change.
[4:18]Wow.
[4:19]You even have a whole section that extols the virtues of the weak connection, right?
[4:24]Like just saying hello to someone or just like in passing and what do those connections
[4:28]do and how can they lead to bigger connections?
[4:30]Talk about that because I feel like people are quick to dismiss those types of encounters.
[4:34]Yeah.
[4:35]So as human beings, we need each other and we need those moments of connection.
[4:40]And I think that so many of us have started to order our groceries online or go to Yelp
[4:46]to get review information.
[4:49]And I think what happens when we actually say hello to somebody or go into the coffee shop
[4:53]or have these interactions is we get little moments of energy back from the other person.
[4:59]And we also get little moments of worthiness when somebody smiles back at you or holds
[5:03]the door open or tells you you're doing a great job or, you know, looks at your little
[5:07]kid and tells you how cute they are.
[5:09]I mean, little tiny, tiny things allow us to have the energy and the confidence to lean
[5:15]into some of those bigger relationships as well.
[5:18]So interesting.
[5:19]And this whole online everything, it feels like you're saving so much time, but we don't
[5:24]often talk about all the things you're giving up.
[5:26]Yeah.
[5:27]And it is easier.
[5:28]I mean, if you order things online, you don't have to get dressed.
[5:31]You don't have to do your hair.
[5:32]You don't have to worry about judgment.
[5:34]You can order whatever you want.
[5:35]And I think it allows us a certain level of privacy and allows us a certain level of comfort
[5:42]from kind of the self-shame or the judgment from others.
[5:45]But it really cuts down on the fact that we do need each other and we do need those interactions.
[5:51]So you have a whole framework in the book as well.
[5:54]The four Cs of connection.
[5:56]Wait a while.
[5:57]I can't find that.
[5:58]But I'm found the three E's of engineering connection.
[5:59]Should we just know that?
[6:00]Let's just see.
[6:01]So you have three E's of engineering connection.
[6:04]And in each chapter, you start with an isolation mindset and a village mindset, which
[6:08]I love.
[6:09]So for this chapter, for example, the isolation mindset is my life just isn't designed
[6:13]for meeting new people.
[6:14]It's hopeless.
[6:15]And the village mindset becomes if I am conscious about my life choice is big and small,
[6:19]I can create opportunities to connect.
[6:22]So these are encounter, one of the other ones, hold on, encounter, engage, I'm flipping
[6:27]through, and this is an exposure.
[6:30]Yeah.
[6:31]So what I hear so much from the people kind of in our online community and my friends
[6:36]here is that they just don't have time.
[6:39]And why, you know, I think one of the misconceptions about connection is that it takes
[6:46]a lot of time and energy and it does take time and energy, but what it does is it also
[6:51]gives you back energy because we're literally biologically programmed to need connection.
[6:57]So when we do lean into it, when we do find time, even to do something like this,
[7:02]I know my next three hours of my life are going to be more productive because you and
[7:06]I are talking right now as opposed to if I had just leaned into working on emails or designing
[7:12]a can vote or doing something.
[7:14]I know that I'm going to have more energy and it's weird that it works that way and I
[7:18]didn't understand that it works that way until I researched the book, but it literally
[7:22]is just something we need like food and water and shelter.
[7:25]And it doesn't matter if it's online like this on Zoom versus like sitting next to somebody
[7:30]you can get energy wherever.
[7:31]Absolutely.
[7:32]I mean, it's always better probably when you're together and it's always better when
[7:35]you have a camera on.
[7:36]It's why I like those Zoom calls.
[7:37]I always feel a little like, oh, cameras aren't on, you know, like, that's why bosses
[7:42]are like, hey, can you guys turn your cameras on?
[7:44]Because it goes so much further past the words that are that are said.
[7:48]I mean, it's the nonverbal communication.
[7:50]It's the smile.
[7:51]It's the being patient while somebody figures out what they want to say.
[7:55]It's all of those things that we continue to carry with us throughout our days that
[7:59]help us be better parents and better humans and better employees and everything.
[8:03]Well, don't you feel like, I mean, I'm a little older than you here, but back in the
[8:08]day of the telephone, like, I would spend hours talking to people and it didn't ever
[8:13]feel at a remove because I feel like we were all listening so much more.
[8:17]Now if somebody doesn't have their camera on on Zoom, it's because you know they're doing
[8:21]something else.
[8:22]Absolutely.
[8:23]And we just don't prioritize connection.
[8:26]And I think that that's a major issue is that if we're not prioritizing it, it's not going
[8:31]to happen.
[8:32]But I think it begs the question, like, does society tell us it's important?
[8:36]And it doesn't because we work in these high-paced times where your kids have to be, you
[8:41]know, in seven different activities and you need to cook a gourmet dinner and then, you
[8:46]know, you need to do this and you do that and where is that actual time for connection?
[8:51]Like, if it's not something that is kind of built into society as a general, we're going
[8:57]to continue to live these isolated lifestyles.
[9:00]So, ideally, we would just put it on the to-do list.
[9:03]Absolutely.
[9:04]Yep.
[9:05]And that's what we talk about a little bit in the book of, you know, blaming it on the
[9:09]calendar.
[9:10]You know, it's Wednesday night, sorry kids, it's book night, the calendar says it's
[9:13]book club night, you know, and you just put it down as something that is another part
[9:18]of your to-do list, which makes it sound like it's a chore.
[9:22]And sometimes it does feel like that.
[9:24]I know, personally, I'll have something on my calendar and I would much rather just, you
[9:28]know, be at home on my pajamas and make dinner with my kids and not go out.
[9:32]And sometimes I think we need to do that, but I think there's other times where we talk
[9:36]that we talk about calling them, put on your sneaker moments, where if you can just do that
[9:40]one little thing, maybe you can take your sweats off and put on your jeans.
[9:44]And then can you get to the front door?
[9:45]And then can you drive, you know, to the coffee shop?
[9:47]Like, and then can you say hello?
[9:50]And then can you say about this terrible thing that you're holding on to that has
[9:53]chamber wrapped around it?
[9:54]And then suddenly you're doing it, you know, you're doing the thing and you're doing
[9:58]the connection, you know, and that.
[10:00]at just starts to snowball
[10:01]into feeling really, really good.
[10:03]Have you watched the show shrinking?
[10:05]I have, you know, the one guy who they like forced
[10:08]to go into the coffee shop
[10:09]and then he like talks to the barista
[10:10]and then he has to talk to the person at the table.
[10:12]It's like similar to that.
[10:14]Yeah, absolutely.
[10:15]And it's interesting because I think we,
[10:17]I think we're all have a certain level of anxiety.
[10:20]We may be not every single person in this world,
[10:22]but I think especially as moms,
[10:24]if you think about the amount of decisions we make
[10:26]every single day and how many of those
[10:29]are going to be wrong or failures.
[10:31]I mean, it is literally like we wake up in the morning
[10:34]and I hope to get 50% right
[10:37]and I know that I'm gonna fall on my face
[10:39]the other 50% of the time.
[10:41]And I think what's really sad about this
[10:43]and kind of looking at the bigger picture
[10:45]is that every time we make, you know, a mistake
[10:48]or we don't do something right
[10:50]or our kids don't behave the way we want them to
[10:53]or the way we expect them to.
[10:55]We start feeling the shame, like we're not doing it right.
[10:58]Like we did something wrong.
[10:59]Like we didn't research that enough
[11:00]or we didn't lean into it enough
[11:02]or we didn't teach them that.
[11:04]And I think what's really scary is
[11:07]when we do live in isolation,
[11:09]there's no way to get through that shame.
[11:11]There's no way to share it with somebody else.
[11:13]And that's the only way that you can learn
[11:16]that somebody else made that same mistake two days ago
[11:18]where somebody else's kid stuck their tongue out
[11:21]at the park too.
[11:22]And, you know, and I think so much of motherhood
[11:26]and connection is sharing stories
[11:29]because society paints this beautiful picture.
[11:31]They paint this gorgeous picture of motherhood
[11:34]where it's supposed to be perfect and clean and wonderful.
[11:38]And it's not.
[11:38]And there's nothing that we can do
[11:40]to change that other than talk to each other
[11:42]and bring some reality back to the picture.
[11:46]So how did you pull off writing a book
[11:50]with your own company and the six kids
[11:53]and everything else?
[11:54]When did you get it done?
[11:55]Yeah, so I have a lot of help at home
[11:57]as much as I can find.
[11:59]But I wrote this book primarily on soccer fields
[12:04]inside indoor pools during swim meets.
[12:06]Any time I could carve out,
[12:08]I did have a weekly couple hours that I worked on it
[12:11]within the office.
[12:12]But the rest of it was weekend time grinding with kids.
[12:16]I still have my 11-year-old still reminds me
[12:18]of the time he missed a swimming event
[12:19]because I was deep in a story
[12:21]that I was writing in the book.
[12:23]You know, and it's just, you just piece it together.
[12:25]But I believe so much in it.
[12:27]And I believe that it can change lives.
[12:30]My life is completely different
[12:31]on the other side of this book.
[12:33]And it's not because of the press it's gotten
[12:35]or how many it's sold or anything like that
[12:36]because none of that's happened yet.
[12:37]It literally has changed because I have a village
[12:41]and I believe in the words in the book, you know.
[12:44]It's amazing.
[12:45]I always feel, you know, you talk in the book
[12:47]about the guilt of asking for help
[12:49]and how we would never, it would never occur to us
[12:51]to like arrange a meal train for ourselves
[12:54]or something like that.
[12:55]And every time that I even think of asking
[12:59]for like a mom to take a kid,
[13:01]like cause I just can't figure out the logistics.
[13:03]And I was like, I'm gonna, I just can't do that.
[13:05]I'm gonna have to ask a favor.
[13:07]And I always say to myself,
[13:08]like I never mind when people ask me.
[13:10]I love it when people ask me to do favors.
[13:12]Like I love being helpful.
[13:13]And so many people love to be helpful.
[13:16]And I think we always think it's an imposition.
[13:19]And so sometimes I have to tell myself,
[13:20]no, you're actually like robbing the other person
[13:24]of the opportunity for them to feel helpful,
[13:26]which makes them feel better.
[13:28]And I think like another little Jedi mind trick
[13:31]with asking for help,
[13:32]asking for help is like inherently vulnerable.
[13:35]And it doesn't quite take in my opinion.
[13:38]Sometimes when we're in that moment of,
[13:40]oh my gosh, how am I gonna get the kids
[13:42]where they need to be and how am I gonna make this work?
[13:45]Sometimes we're in such this like panic mode
[13:47]that it's vulnerability without really feeling vulnerable.
[13:50]You know, like, I mean, it does.
[13:52]It's hard to ask the question,
[13:53]but sometimes when we're like asking it for our kids
[13:56]or we're in that moment of panic
[13:57]or we don't know how to make it happen,
[14:00]it actually is sneaky vulnerability.
[14:01]I feel like because it's like this,
[14:04]I have to do what I have to ask
[14:05]or it's not gonna happen.
[14:07]And it kind of allows us to move that relationship
[14:12]with whoever we're asking for,
[14:14]maybe a little bit further than it would normally get
[14:16]because we are asking for help.
[14:17]And we are saying indirectly,
[14:19]hey, I can't cut it.
[14:20]Like I can't get this done.
[14:22]And I think for high achieving individuals,
[14:24]like you and me sometimes,
[14:25]that's a little hard to swallow.
[14:27]Do you feel like you have a village in place for the book?
[14:30]For the book, like the book book or like just,
[14:33]I mean, for like the release of the book,
[14:35]like it's a lot, it's a lot to have a book come out too.
[14:38]I mean, do you feel like your village is in situ?
[14:41]I feel like I have been in learning mode
[14:44]like intense learning mode for,
[14:48]I mean, of course, the entire time I've written the book,
[14:50]but the last six to seven months.
[14:52]Yeah, I don't know.
[14:53]I don't know what it looks like.
[14:54]I've just kind of succumbed to the idea
[14:56]that I'm gonna do the best I can.
[14:59]And I'm going to learn.
[15:00]I mean, some people say you write your first book
[15:02]for your second book.
[15:03]And I always thought that that was like a performance-based thing.
[15:06]Like my second year's second book sells more
[15:07]than your first book.
[15:08]I really think that it will probably be more enjoyable
[15:12]the second time because I won't be in this place
[15:15]of constantly feeling like I'm asking questions
[15:17]or bugging people or trying to gather information.
[15:20]It's a really, really interesting industry.
[15:22]And I've enjoyed every moment of learning about it,
[15:25]but you have to ask questions.
[15:27]And sometimes that's hard for me.
[15:29]Like if I can't Google it or research it,
[15:30]and it brings you back to the idea that you have to ask
[15:32]for help and you have to actually communicate
[15:35]with people as opposed to Google all your answers.
[15:38]So if it's like, no, like under layers of information
[15:42]and finding the right people.
[15:43]So yeah.
[15:44]Yeah, it's time we talked by the way.
[15:45]You were like, I should probably plan a book tour.
[15:47]Yeah.
[15:48]And what ended up happening with that?
[15:49]Well, it's not, I mean, I'm doing some online events
[15:54]in the next week after the book launches.
[15:57]But yeah, no, I'm not planning on going anywhere right now.
[15:59]I don't think I ever really figured out.
[16:02]Like I was like, oh, it's gonna be spring.
[16:04]And the trees are gonna be green.
[16:05]And it's gonna be a wonderful time to launch a book.
[16:07]But I didn't think about the fact
[16:08]that literally we have like 35 different events every week
[16:13]with the kids in the afternoons
[16:14]and our repair just got homesick and went back to Germany.
[16:17]Oh, no.
[16:18]Yeah, no, that happened.
[16:19]All he texted me last Sunday and he said,
[16:22]I booked a flight for Friday.
[16:23]Oh, no.
[16:25]Oh my gosh, I have a book coming out.
[16:27]So that's happened.
[16:29]You know, it's just, I don't know, I believe in it.
[16:33]And I wanted in people's hands
[16:34]and I wanna get through this initial,
[16:37]like launching of it.
[16:38]You know, like I want it out there
[16:40]and then I wanna just kind of see what happens.
[16:43]So maybe there will be one eventually.
[16:45]But I don't know, I've enjoyed my time in New York
[16:47]at the couple times I've come up there
[16:48]and I have some press the week after.
[16:51]But so that will be helpful as well.
[16:53]Wow.
[16:53]You built a company that is now making so much,
[16:58]not making so much revenue.
[17:00]It earning so much revenue has been so big.
[17:04]It has like millions of people
[17:05]who are part of the community.
[17:08]How, what was the secret sauce of that?
[17:11]Especially the community since that is your focus in the book
[17:14]and that is what you've done professionally.
[17:15]Like how?
[17:16]How did you do that?
[17:19]What can other people do?
[17:20]And yeah, yeah.
[17:22]I think that we talk about this a little bit in the book.
[17:25]I think Latchmama was a trial and vulnerability.
[17:28]I think anytime you start a small brand
[17:32]and you bootstrap it,
[17:33]I mean, we don't, I'm not inherently wealthy or anything.
[17:37]I took $10,000 for my last real estate commission check
[17:41]before I had my baby and that's what we started a company with.
[17:44]But we didn't have money for models.
[17:46]We didn't have anything.
[17:47]We just kind of built it.
[17:48]My husband has some technical knowledge
[17:50]and he launched Facebook ads at the right time.
[17:52]And I think what happened was that I showed up
[17:55]and I said, hey, I care about moms.
[17:57]I want to put this product out into the market.
[18:00]I don't know what I'm doing.
[18:02]And it's such I think an amazing lesson in general
[18:05]for just human beings.
[18:06]It's asking for help.
[18:07]It's saying, hey, I don't know what I'm doing.
[18:09]Can you guys help me?
[18:09]Let's do this together.
[18:11]And then it just kind of snowballed from there.
[18:13]And there have been ups and downs and amazing moments
[18:16]and moments that have taught me more about human nature,
[18:19]the good and the bad, then I've ever hoped to learn.
[18:23]But I think in the end, it just doubles down
[18:26]on what the book's about.
[18:27]It's just that we need each other, you know?
[18:29]It was, I didn't, I have never gotten out of bed every day
[18:32]and gone to work for the clothes.
[18:34]The clothes have been like completely a side project.
[18:37]It's been building the community here at Latchmama.
[18:40]We allow women to bring their babies to work.
[18:42]So in the United States, you can't get a job
[18:44]without childcare and you can get childcare
[18:45]without a job, which is really scary for a lot of women
[18:49]who either are single moms or in relationships or situations
[18:53]that aren't the best, aren't the healthiest.
[18:55]So, you know, some of that work has really been what drives me
[18:59]and has, you know, kind of changed my life apart
[19:03]from the revenue and the company in general.
[19:05]So I just wanna keep it going, you know?
[19:08]The thing motherhood is really, really hard.
[19:12]And it's beautiful and rewarding
[19:14]in those little fleeting moments sometimes.
[19:16]And sometimes it's in the big moments.
[19:17]But for the most part, I think it's hard to be a mother
[19:20]in the United States.
[19:21]And I think we need each other.
[19:22]And I don't think there's anybody else
[19:23]that understands how hard it is than other moms.
[19:27]But somehow we sometimes get caddy and competitive
[19:29]with each other and we have a really hard time, you know,
[19:32]dropping our own self-judgment
[19:34]to really come together.
[19:35]So I don't know, that was a long answer.
[19:37]No, no, it's all good.
[19:38]I think that the older I get as a mom,
[19:40]the more the less I do all that comparison stuff.
[19:44]But when I just started, I didn't,
[19:45]and I felt like you, I didn't know what I was doing.
[19:48]And I didn't sort of have, I mean, I had some confidence,
[19:51]but I kept getting challenged by the fact
[19:53]that other people were doing things differently
[19:56]than I kept wondering, well, maybe they know
[19:57]something, I don't know.
[19:58]And now I'm just like, this is how I...
[20:00]do things. Yeah. But could you imagine if how much more joy there would have been in
[20:04]those beginning family, like those beginning motherhood years, if that's the way we were.
[20:10]And I understand that it has to take time and you can't look back and all of that stuff.
[20:13]But I look at the way I parent now and I just, I love it. I love my relationships with
[20:18]my kids and my kids are getting older, but I just wish that I found as much joy in
[20:23]the early days. And I don't think much has changed there. I think there are a lot of younger
[20:27]moms that are in the trenches right now with little little kids that, you know, need
[20:32]to be told that they're doing, they're doing okay. You know, our mom intuitions important
[20:37]and doesn't matter how other people are doing it. You know, I think what really matters
[20:41]is that we need each other, you know. Like, right? No, I'm so thankful for the moms I was in
[20:45]the trenches with. Oh my gosh, I would not have made it through without them. Yeah, it's wild.
[20:50]And I don't think we prepare moms for it. I don't, I think we talk about, you know, the coming
[20:54]home outfit and what the, what the nursery's going to look like. And we don't really talk
[20:57]about, you know, the, the way that motherhood can kind of take us out at the knees and
[21:03]is a new adolescence. I mean, it is literally like a second adolescence. And, you know,
[21:08]I love that aspect of the book. And it brings me, it's like the part that gets me the
[21:13]most right now because I have a almost 13 year old, he'll be 13 and two weeks. And there
[21:18]was this story where it's not in the book, but it happened recently where I was at a lacrosse
[21:24]game and he's playing the cross and he's really not good at it. And he's okay with me saying
[21:28]that. But he's, it's a brand new sport for him. And there were these moms behind me. And
[21:32]they were talking about their carpool. And I desperately need to get the kid in a carpool
[21:36]because it's throwing off dinners and stuff like that. Turn around. And I asked them if we could,
[21:41]if I could be part of their carpool. And they immediately said no. And then it was fine,
[21:46]but they were like, we, we have five. And I was like, oh, I was like, I have six. So she said,
[21:50]I have, we have five. And I said, I have six. And they were like, kids, why would you ever do that?
[21:55]So it's that behind my sunglasses. And I cried all across game, which was fine. But then he got
[22:02]in the car. And he like, you know, quickly finished the game and got into the car. And then he
[22:05]was crying because the kid had been mean to him. And it was the most beautiful thing in the world
[22:10]because I could say to him, Hey, you know what, we're both trying to navigate this together.
[22:14]You know, it's all hard in that matched vulnerability in that moment of me trying to find my way
[22:20]into this new little community of moms and him trying to find his way into this new little team.
[22:25]It was like one of the most beautiful parenthood moments ever. And I wouldn't have had it unless
[22:29]I hadn't taken the time to write this book and really lean into how we all change his moms and
[22:35]how we need each other. And I don't know, it's just, it's, it's such a beautiful journey when we
[22:40]can sleep enough and eat enough and get enough time to actually stand back and look at at what's
[22:46]happening. Amazing. Melissa, thank you so much. I was told there'd be a village. Now we have a village
[22:53]in a book. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for championing the book and the way you
[22:58]have been. I really appreciate it. It's not sure. All right. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening
[23:03]to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone have time to read books. If you loved the show,
[23:09]tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and spread the word.
[23:15]Thanks so much. Oh, and bye the books.