Keeonna Harris, MAINLINE MAMA: A Memoir
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[0:44]Kiana Harris is the author of Mainline Mama, a memoir.
[0:48]Kiana is a writer, storyteller, mother of five, prison abolitionist, activist, and academic,
[0:54]born and raised in Watts and other parts of South Central Los Angeles.
[0:57]She has won several honors, including a 2018-19 Pan-America writing for Justice Fellowship,
[1:03]a 2021 10-house summer residency, a 2023 Baldwin for the Arts residency, and a 2023
[1:09]hedge-trick fellowship, as the 2023 Edith Wharton writer and residence.
[1:14]She is a 2024 Haymarket writing freedom fellow, and a postdoctoral scholar at the University
[1:19]of Washington, the Department of Health Systems and Population Health.
[1:23]She is developing the Borderland Project, a mental health, and community support system
[1:27]for women.
[1:28]She lives in Seattle.
[1:29]Welcome, Kiana.
[1:30]Thanks so much for coming on to talk about Mainline Mama, a memoir.
[1:34]Thank you for having me.
[1:35]I'm so excited to be here today.
[1:37]Thank you for sharing your really powerful story.
[1:40]This is completely transformative in so many ways.
[1:44]All the things that you have gone through that you write about so beautifully, who you
[1:49]advocate for, it's really impressive.
[1:52]And even just navigating any relationship, like when somebody is like, I don't like how
[1:58]your hair looks, you know, like these just like fix your hair, like we can all relate.
[2:03]Even in like the most absurd different circumstances, there are so many threads that we
[2:09]all share.
[2:10]Correct, correct.
[2:11]It's such a like a universal experience in essence.
[2:14]Yeah.
[2:15]So tell everybody what your book is about.
[2:18]Yeah.
[2:19]So Mainline Mama for me is a love letter to women, specifically black girls and women
[2:26]who've been forced into relationships with the carceral system, whether that's being incarcerated,
[2:31]formerly incarcerated, or women like me who are Mainline mamas that are just trying to,
[2:36]you know, keep a connection to a loved one.
[2:38]And you explain, you do in the book, but explain what a Mainline Mama is.
[2:42]A Mainline Mama is a woman who has to navigate prison to keep connection to a loved one
[2:48]who's also a caregiver for her partner, her children, biological, or not her community.
[2:53]Okay.
[2:54]You got sorry.
[2:55]So, no worries.
[2:56]And so I call Mainline Mama actually my growing coming of age story, right?
[3:02]Because it's detailing my experiences raising my children with their then incarcerated parents.
[3:08]And during that time and trying to navigate the carceral system and trying to create
[3:11]home for us, I built community with other women and discovered the best kind of love,
[3:17]which is self love, right?
[3:19]And what I ultimately realized is that all the home that I was searching through everyone
[3:24]else was already within myself.
[3:26]It's beautiful.
[3:28]So you had a baby at 14 from the very first time you had sex.
[3:32]Correct.
[3:33]This is fertility off the charts.
[3:35]I mean, there are people who would pay a lot of money for this.
[3:40]And I joke.
[3:41]I shouldn't.
[3:42]But, you know, you were very obviously surprised.
[3:44]Your family was a little bit less than pleased, particularly who the guy was.
[3:49]Your bird tried to help find Jason up in the job, get him off the streets at the time.
[3:55]He was, you know, dealing drugs in a gang and you were like, but I'm going to be a mom.
[4:01]Take us back to that time in your life.
[4:04]Yeah.
[4:05]It was a whirlwind.
[4:07]My whole life just exploded.
[4:10]Like the double life of Keanu was exposed in an instant, right?
[4:15]And so for myself, I've always been an overachiever.
[4:18]I've always known like I'm going to college.
[4:20]I'm going to be an obstetrician.
[4:22]I'm going to do all these great things.
[4:23]My life's going to be amazing until I'm pregnant.
[4:28]And so for me, it was not only, it didn't just change my life.
[4:33]It changed everyone else's life around me.
[4:36]And so I had to quickly become an adult.
[4:39]I had to change my plans, you know, and at the time, that was very crushing for me.
[4:46]But I had to change my plans.
[4:48]And so what I like to think about it now, the dreams were never crushed.
[4:50]They were just deferred.
[4:51]Right?
[4:52]Because I ended up doing everything that I wanted to do in life.
[4:55]But it was just a very difficult time to navigate and find my new place for myself and within
[5:01]my family.
[5:02]So people would say, like, I wonder what it would be like, like, what would it be like
[5:07]to be a teenager with their own child when teenagers are still children?
[5:14]I have a couple of them.
[5:15]Me too.
[5:16]I mean, so how did you learn how to navigate that, particularly without tons of familiar
[5:25]support, tons of resources that you're disposal?
[5:28]Like, I know there were times when you were quite depressed, which you write about in
[5:31]the book, how did you get through those moments?
[5:35]You know, I am resilient.
[5:39]And I know it sounds so cliche, but I am relentless, as far as if I'm determined to do
[5:46]something, I'm going to do it.
[5:48]And me being pregnant just fueled a fire in me to succeed, even further, because now I have
[5:54]this person looking up at me, you know.
[5:58]And so I, you know, I was kind of pushed out of school, they didn't tell me like, you
[6:02]need to leave, but I was encouraged, you know, to go to another school.
[6:06]So I was so lucky to find a school that was just happened to be down the street from where
[6:11]I was living, which I had no idea existed.
[6:14]And it was a school for pregnant girls.
[6:17]And it was the best gift ever, because I didn't have to hide who I was.
[6:21]I didn't have to feel ashamed because everyone looked like me.
[6:25]And as far as electives are concerned, we would just take turns to watching each other's
[6:30]children in the daycare.
[6:32]So it was a beautiful gift, so I was able to finish high school, even graduated a year
[6:36]early.
[6:37]So I was able to do all those things that I didn't even know existed in my neighborhood.
[6:42]And now you have five kids who ranked, oh my gosh, I have four kids, I thought that was
[6:47]a lot.
[6:48]So you know, what is your age spread?
[6:52]is my oldest is 29, I have 26, 15, eight, and six.
[6:59]Oh my gosh.
[7:01]Wow.
[7:02]Yeah.
[7:03]So what do your kids think about this book, mainline mama?
[7:07]It's so funny because I, that was one of the things that was really excited for the book.
[7:13]So my children, especially my older children, can really know who I am as a person.
[7:18]Because as you know, your kids, and I feel like all of us at one time, we think our parents
[7:22]are perfect.
[7:23]We put them up on these pedestals and almost like they're not people, right?
[7:27]So of course, there was times when my older children were teenagers and they thought I
[7:30]was just doing things to ruin their lives.
[7:32]And now they can see the story behind me, the method to the madness and kind of what was
[7:38]going on with me at that time in realizing that I'm a person too.
[7:42]So they came to my, to my reading here in Seattle and they were just like, wow, and I could
[7:50]just see their expressions from the stage and they were just completely blown away.
[7:56]And it was really touching because they came up to me afterward and they were just like,
[8:01]wow, mom, like you've been through a lot of stuff and like you're still here, like
[8:05]you're amazing.
[8:06]And so it made me, it touched me so deeply and my 15 year old is reading it currently.
[8:14]And it's really sweet because he's the age that I was, you know, so it's really nice
[8:19]to have these conversations with him as well because he's dealing with, you know, figuring
[8:23]out who he is as a person and navigating relationships with friends and things like that.
[8:28]So it's now given him like, oh, my mom was a teenager too.
[8:33]She had to also reconcile, you know, hard choices in which way to go in life.
[8:38]Wow.
[8:39]I remember the first time I read my diary out loud to my kids when I were my age and I was
[8:43]like, this is so cool.
[8:44]It's like a time warp.
[8:45]Like you're meeting to young me.
[8:47]And here you are, you know, yeah, crazy.
[8:50]So you, I know you spoke about your resilience, but there's a section of the book where
[8:56]while Jason is still in prison because he had a 22 year sentence, you were also sexually
[9:03]assaulted.
[9:04]I mean, it's like, I'm like, what is going on this poor woman, everything is happening
[9:09]to her.
[9:10]Tell me about that and even how his response is not what you were looking for.
[9:16]Correct.
[9:17]That was a really hard time for me because, you know, no one ever thinks anything like
[9:25]that is going to happen to them.
[9:26]Like no one thinks that, you know, and I happen to know the person that committed this crime
[9:33]against me.
[9:34]So I was hurt on a number of levels because it's someone who I previously trusted and
[9:39]I thought I would never imagine that they would do this kind of thing to me.
[9:44]And so of course, you know, at the time me and Jason were married and this person is
[9:48]my best friend.
[9:50]So I'm a mess and I'm telling him and so I'm going back and forth with my mind as far
[9:54]as should I tell him, should I not?
[9:57]Because I'm embarrassed.
[9:58]I don't want to talk about it.
[9:59]I just.
[10:00]Kind of want to go get in the bed and lay down and never get up, right?
[10:04]And so I decide to tell him because he's my best friend and I'm looking for comfort, right?
[10:11]And I'm also thinking about my health and his health.
[10:14]I'm thinking about all the things that you think about and so his reaction was just
[10:20]It was heartbreaking. I remember it like it was yesterday
[10:24]It was really really heartbreaking for me because it definitely wasn't what I expected, you know
[10:30]And so after that time, that's when I really started going on my own discovery of Kiana
[10:38]and what Kiana needs and what Kiana wants and what boundaries need to be in place for Kiana
[10:44]And I started going to therapy that was that's what made me go to therapy and therapy just opened
[10:50]up my whole world and really uncovering everything that I had stuff down or either didn't have time
[10:56]to process because I was I had to become an adult at 15. Can you share any more about what happened?
[11:03]You didn't really go into depth in the book and you totally don't have to but I don't want to go
[11:08]a lot into detail because it's something I really don't like to talk about a lot
[11:12]but it was a situation where we were at a mutual acquaintance house and they were having a party
[11:19]and everyone was having a good time and I happened to I was not in a position to drive
[11:24]so I stayed over at a friend's house that I was doing a responsible thing and I kind of woke up
[11:30]to a person in my room that had no business being there. I'm really sorry. I'm really really sorry.
[11:40]Oh my gosh and then to have to sort of go home and take care of Kiana I mean it's just there's a
[11:47]lot it's a lot I'm sorry for prying it's as if you weren't open enough in this book I have to like
[11:53]ask you more you've already like given the reader and me so much so thank you it just made me
[11:57]curious because like I feel like you've been you've been so forthcoming and anyway I'm just so
[12:02]rooting for you I just I just wanted to hear tell me about the work that you're doing now
[12:08]because you're helping so many other people. Yeah the work that I'm doing now I'm currently at
[12:13]the University of Washington which I love and we are currently you know looking leaning into
[12:20]anti worse anti racist justice work as far as the connection between mass incarceration and health
[12:28]because I'm not sure if you know but I'm just gonna say most folks who come home from prison or
[12:34]a jail they do not have the best health outcomes when they come home and so we are trying to lean
[12:39]into research to kind of uncover what can be done so that folks while they're incarcerated
[12:47]are not you know getting diseases are falling prey and you know to to death prematurely and also
[12:55]when they come home why is that happening so we're focusing on the health and aspect what are some
[13:01]of the most common things that are happening to formerly incarcerated people like what are some
[13:06]common diseases or what are you seeing hi blood pressure diabetes these are things because you know
[13:12]the diet is not good we all know the effects of stress on the body you know especially for someone
[13:18]who's been in for a long time and so for the quote-unquote folks that are that on living on the outside
[13:26]these are things we can manage we go to the doctor we take our you know peel once a day and
[13:30]we're normally fine we can change things we'll diet but when you're locked away and you don't have
[13:35]a lot of choices of things or you have to wait months to get an appointment or things of that nature
[13:40]is not so cut and dry and so these health issues they kind of linger and they fester to
[13:47]worse things and so now you have it where this person is being okay it's time for you to go
[13:53]and then your home for maybe a year or two and then you hear about someone dying oh
[14:00]wow well that's amazing activism you know it's wonderful to be taking care of other people
[14:07]and you know you made such a strong you told such a strong story about how it feels to love someone
[14:15]who is essentially like controlled by the state and you don't have any you feel like you don't have
[14:21]any rights and that even your own wedding that you had to just the up to the whim of everyone else
[14:27]like it was the right you're back showing or not and you have to learn all the tricks and yet
[14:31]at the end of the day there's like nothing you can do it which is really really hard
[14:35]right obviously correct and I say it all the time in a jokingly way it's like at that time the
[14:41]prison was my real boy that's who I was in a real relationship with because they had it was me and
[14:46]the prison negotiating it wasn't me and my thin partner you know it was like everything had to be
[14:52]involved with the prison do you have any parenting advice oh yes I do I think and these are just
[15:03]lessons I've also learned in myself in my journey I think it's very important to check in with
[15:09]your kids and I think you know in this life everyone's busy we're on our phones we're working
[15:15]our kids are doing 50 million activities but really check in on them like check in and see how
[15:20]their heart is doing how's your heart not just you know like how was school you know things like
[15:26]that but really check in with them and also I've learned to when I am making these
[15:33]big decisions for my family of course I consider my children but I also I want to hear their opinion
[15:41]or I clarify things so if I make a decision I used to just be very much like this decision is made
[15:47]and that's it but let me give you some clarity on why this is happening so it takes a lot of the
[15:53]guess workout there's no you know underlying resentment that doesn't need to be there everyone's
[15:59]on the same page about why we're moving in this direction very good advice thank you for that
[16:07]amazing are you doing any more writing yes I am doing a number of things I'm working on the second
[16:13]book which I'm very excited about it's looking like it's going to be a matrilineal memoir
[16:20]of relationships tracing connections between health and family because I really want this next
[16:25]to kind of explore the legacies that are passed down that we don't talk about which are the legacies
[16:31]of silence and sadness and kind of the loss of oneself which are unfortunately traumas usually
[16:39]fit you know forced on women and that manifests as illness as we can see all these
[16:44]autoimmune diseases and things like that because doctors you know they take a family history
[16:48]of recurring elements but I want the next book to explore how our bodies are connected to relationships
[16:56]so I'm working on the next book and because I'm such a dreamer I would love to see
[17:02]mainline mama adapted I would just love it yeah so that's what I'm working on at this at this time
[17:08]amazing well kiana thank you so much thank you for sharing your story and being so inspiring
[17:15]and sharing your resilience and your wisdom and the desire the essentialness of self-love
[17:25]throughout all of it so thank you so much for having me I wish we could do it in person I
[17:31]just thought you online and it looked really cool oh I know I only asked people who were around here
[17:36]I organized but we got here oh sorry sorry if I come to you're in Washington state somewhere
[17:45]yeah Miss Seattle yeah so if I come to Seattle let's do it on stage okay okay all right thanks so
[17:53]much thank you bye bye thank you for listening to totally booked with zibi formerly momstone
[18:00]have time to read books if you loved the show tell a friend leave a review follow me on instagram
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