Brian Kelly, HOW TO WIN AT TRAVEL
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
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[0:44]Brian Kelly is the author of How to Win at Travel.
[0:47]He is the founder of The Points Guy, the leading voice in loyalty programs, points,
[0:52]miles, credit cards, and travel.
[0:54]He has grown TPG, The Points Guy, to be a powerhouse travel and lifestyle media platform
[0:59]that reaches over 10 million unique monthly visitors around the world.
[1:03]Kelly has found a distinctive way to reach his audience and inspire millions to live their
[1:06]best lives through his supercharged personality, deep industry knowledge, and extensive
[1:11]worldwide travel.
[1:12]He has been recognized with awards and accolades like Forbes' number one travel influencer,
[1:17]travel and leisure's most notable people in travel, ad weeks young influencers list,
[1:22]and as an out 100 recipient.
[1:24]He recently did an event at Zibi's bookshop and was so kind because he donated all
[1:29]the book profits from the event to help the LA fire department after the fires.
[1:35]So thank you so much to Brian for being so generous and giving credit to those firefighters
[1:41]who deserve it for all of their bravery.
[1:43]And we are so happy you came and visited us at the store.
[1:46]Welcome back to Totally Booked With Zibi.
[1:48]I am so excited to be here with Brian Kelly today, The Points Guy.
[1:53]Just talk about how to win at travel.
[1:56]So exciting.
[1:57]Congratulations.
[1:58]Thank you so much.
[1:59]Oh my gosh.
[2:00]I have so many questions.
[2:01]I travel all the time and this is on my mind constantly in every way, shape, or form.
[2:07]But first, how did you become The Points Guy starting the whole company?
[2:12]Take us back.
[2:13]I know you right.
[2:14]Yeah.
[2:15]Before I was the points guy, I was the points kid.
[2:17]So in the 90s, I was just that 11-year-old who was on the internet.
[2:23]My parents knew nothing about technology and I became the kind of computer genius of the
[2:27]family.
[2:28]I was on AOL those days when you used to have to put a modem in a computer and a phone
[2:34]line.
[2:35]The kids these days have no idea what we went through to get on the internet.
[2:37]They don't.
[2:38]They have no respect.
[2:39]And long story short, my dad, I grew up outside of Philadelphia.
[2:42]He ended up getting a job for startup outside of in Chatsworth, California.
[2:46]So he was going back and forth, LA, Philly, road warrior travel.
[2:51]And one day he came to me and said, I have all these frequent flyer miles, I have no idea
[2:55]how to use them.
[2:56]I'm too busy, but I guess he just, his 12-year-old son who knew everything technology was
[3:01]like, if anyone can figure it out, it's Brian.
[3:03]And that's a tip.
[3:04]I give a lot of parents these days, maybe not playing the entire trip to young kids,
[3:08]but giving them a portion of the trip to plan itinerary.
[3:11]I think so many of the skills around travel and planning good trips and research are great
[3:16]for kids.
[3:17]So I took that and ran with it, and I booked, I'm one of four kids.
[3:21]I booked our family of six.
[3:23]We went to the Cayman Islands for free.
[3:26]And I just remember thinking how incredible is this?
[3:28]You know, my dad had to miss so many basketball games, but every year on his points, our
[3:33]family of six took this epic trip to the Caribbean.
[3:36]So that's where I got my stripes and the endpoints, never in a million years that I think
[3:40]many years later I would turn this into my business.
[3:43]But it was all because of your dad's pride in you.
[3:47]The original points got it.
[3:48]And you did it.
[3:49]Look at this trip.
[3:50]Oh, he loves coming to the book events.
[3:52]He will tell people that he's the original points guy.
[3:55]But yes, so that's where I learned the basics.
[3:57]And then in 2007, after I graduated college, I ended up getting a job at Morgan Stanley,
[4:02]where I was basically my dad.
[4:04]I was traveling nonstop.
[4:06]I learned very quickly how to maximize my corporate card, choose the, I was Delta.
[4:11]I was Diamond when they first came out with that.
[4:13]And that was interesting time because during the great recession, I luckily had a job that
[4:18]I was still traveling and most, you know, business travel went off a cliff.
[4:22]So I also had super elite status and the airlines and the hotels were giving out tons of
[4:27]free flights.
[4:29]But interestingly, because I, you know, I had all this business travel, but they weren't,
[4:33]I wasn't getting paid money because I was in HR for a bank in 2008.
[4:37]And every year the banks were like, congratulations, your bonus is not getting laid off.
[4:42]Come back again next year.
[4:44]So I'm in my 20s, but I had all these miles.
[4:47]So it was a really interesting time in my life.
[4:50]I was living a double life because I had so many frequent flyer miles, elite status.
[4:53]I was leaving on the weekends to fly to stay in hotels where I would get the penthouse
[4:59]suite.
[5:00]So I'm in my 20s, I'm broke, but my points, it was cheaper for me to fly first class
[5:06]to London for a weekend where my breakfast and afternoon lounge at the hotel would get
[5:11]most of my meals and on the plane.
[5:13]Then it would be for me to stay in New York and have that dreaded, you know, going out to
[5:17]dinner with friends where everyone splits the bill and I'm like, really running tight.
[5:21]So I was points rich cash poor.
[5:24]And finally in 2010, my, my ex at the time was like, you know, you're a genius with this
[5:29]point stuff.
[5:30]You should start a business on it.
[5:31]So the points guy started in 2010 and originally it wasn't even a blog.
[5:35]It was just, I was a travel agent for points.
[5:38]So I would work at Morgan Stanley, come home and as the points guy, I would charge you
[5:41]$50 a ticket.
[5:43]So people like you would come to me and say, I'm busy, I have all these amics points.
[5:47]I want to take my family to Italy, but when I go on Delta's website, it says nothing
[5:51]available.
[5:52]And in 2010, that was the years of, it was feast or famine.
[5:55]So nope, it was blackout dates.
[5:57]So you really had to be an expert.
[5:59]There were all these super expert tools that I knew.
[6:02]So I would, that was my side hustle.
[6:03]I would come home, book people trips.
[6:05]And for me, into this day, booking award trips is, it's a crossword puzzle.
[6:10]It's like doing the crossword and the satisfaction you get when you can beat an airline.
[6:15]You know, like the airline beating the airlines at their own game is just so joyful, you
[6:21]know, when they, you know, give us fees nonstop and change fees, but like when you can
[6:27]use their program against them.
[6:28]So that's how the points guy started.
[6:30]And then a friend quickly told me this, he's like, this is 2010.
[6:33]He's like, I beg you to start a blog.
[6:36]This is one travel or fashion bloggers were starting to sit front row at fashion shows.
[6:40]It was this, I didn't know it at the time.
[6:42]I could sense there was something changing in media.
[6:44]But the way my friend looked at me, who's a very smart friend, he goes, I urge you, blog
[6:49]every day the same time and you will build the audience because, and it was true everywhere
[6:54]I went, people would be like, I have points.
[6:55]I don't know how to use them.
[6:57]So there were plenty of other points bloggers out there.
[6:59]People think I'm like the first one to kind of make this mainstream.
[7:02]It was true June of 2010.
[7:03]You were just the best.
[7:04]Yeah, I mean, there are plenty of smarter people out there.
[7:08]But what I learned to do very quickly is leverage media.
[7:12]So the New York Times had reached out to me because the common media narrative in 2010
[7:16]was points are useless, blackout dates, you can't go anywhere.
[7:19]There was huge frustration.
[7:21]And so I was kind of the voice saying, okay, in the media, stop writing these articles
[7:26]that are just points are useless.
[7:27]Well, what if they're not?
[7:29]And I told you how.
[7:31]So the New York Times wrote a piece about the points guy in early 2011 and that post
[7:36]changed my life because unbeknownst to me, that New York Times linked to, you know, up and
[7:41]coming little blog just shot me into stardom.
[7:44]In the sense that Google's main in 2011, the algorithm, if a blog had a link from the
[7:51]New York Times, it meant, you know, so all the sudden my traffic just went through the
[7:56]roof and at the same time the credit card company started approaching me because I knew
[8:01]their products as a road warrior in and out.
[8:03]So when I authentically talked about the Delta credit card you need to have for the companion
[8:08]ticket.
[8:09]I'm using this companion ticket to fly to Hawaii first class was much more effective
[8:13]than them running a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal on just the credit card ad.
[8:17]So this was the new age of affiliate marketing, which most media publishers, it felt
[8:23]a little spammy at the time, you know, all the major travel pubs, you know, they had
[8:27]huge traffic so it was all display ads but I came in and started a business around
[8:32]I had a smaller audience but very engaged and I figured out very quickly that in the media
[8:38]I could be a new voice for, you know, this counter narrative and it's pro consumer at the
[8:43]end of the day to this day and why I wrote this book is there are still so many people
[8:47]leaving money on the table and points and miles this whole loyalty ecosystem it is the
[8:53]future.
[8:54]You know, if you look through the pandemic every single airline exists today because they
[8:59]leverage their loyalty programs to sell billions of dollars worth of miles to the credit
[9:03]card companies, these credit cards are not going away.
[9:07]In fact, you know, especially with the softening economy now, the airline is more than
[9:10]ever doubling down on loyalty.
[9:13]So if there's one message you get from the book, there's never been a better time,
[9:18]get in now, stop the narrative in your head that this game is over because a lot of people
[9:22]think, oh, everyone's doing it now, therefore, you know, I missed the boat and that couldn't
[9:28]be further from the truth.
[9:30]Well, you were so impressive.
[9:31]I want you to come in and help me with the book industry if you don't mind.
[9:33]I've learned a lot about the book industry.
[9:36]I've learned a lot about the book industry.
[9:37]We need an analytics person every day.
[9:41]It's very interesting.
[9:42]The, uh, the pipes or lack thereof in the industry to get real time signals.
[9:48]But I am happy to see book events from when I hear books are back and it was so cool
[9:53]to be able to go to so many independent shops like yours and Santa Monica and having standing
[9:58]room only crowd.
[9:59]So.
[10:00]Kudos to you for creating a really special community.
[10:02]Oh, thank you.
[10:03]That's so nice.
[10:04]OK, points.
[10:05]So do I need the Delta credit card?
[10:07]So credit cards are the foundation of any good point strategy.
[10:12]And there are three simple flavors of credit card.
[10:16]The one that you, everyone needs
[10:18]is a transferable points credit card.
[10:22]So that's not a Delta credit card.
[10:24]Because when you use a Delta credit card,
[10:25]you're earning only in Delta miles.
[10:28]Whereas with these transferable points credit cards,
[10:31]this is the Amex Gold card.
[10:33]The Amex Gold card gives, you know, for example,
[10:35]four points per dollar on all dining and groceries.
[10:38]And those are two categories.
[10:40]We all spend a lot of money.
[10:41]And the beauty of getting an Amex point
[10:43]is that you can transfer to Delta one to one
[10:45]as if you had used a Delta card or 32 other partners.
[10:50]So when you have these bank points
[10:53]that allow you to transfer to a number of carriers,
[10:56]it gives you so much more flexibility.
[10:58]Because, you know, while Delta's great,
[11:01]say you want to fly, you know, not Air France,
[11:04]because they're partners, but Air France,
[11:05]actually, you could transfer Amex points to Air France
[11:07]and fly the same flight that you would fly with Delta
[11:10]for 50,000 points, whereas Delta now charges 350,000
[11:14]to go to Europe.
[11:15]So one seventh the price for the same exact flight
[11:18]just by using different loyalty programs.
[11:22]So I know it sounds confusing,
[11:24]or if you want to ever fly the Emirates A380
[11:26]with the shower and the sky,
[11:28]you can transfer Amex points to Emirates
[11:30]and all these different partners.
[11:32]So in order to get the most value out of your points these days,
[11:35]you need to have a diversified currency.
[11:37]So that's Amex membership rewards, chase ultimate rewards,
[11:41]the chase sapphire, preferred,
[11:43]and reserve cards are amazing, capital one venture X.
[11:47]That's two points on every dollar you spend.
[11:50]Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't have a Delta Amex,
[11:53]you know, there are the airline co-brands,
[11:55]the hotel co-brands, and these cards are good,
[11:58]not really for points because you're earning one simple currency.
[12:02]And as much as I love Delta Delta miles,
[12:04]just keep going down in value
[12:05]because every month they're increasing the amount of miles
[12:09]you need to go anywhere,
[12:11]but they do have really valuable perks.
[12:13]So I have co-brand cards,
[12:14]but they're not my workhorse cards
[12:16]that I'm spending most on every day.
[12:18]You know, the free check bags, the lounge access,
[12:21]perks like that can absolutely make sense
[12:23]on spending on those Delta cards.
[12:25]But in the book, I teach people the overall economics,
[12:29]and you should understand as a consumer,
[12:31]there's an opportunity cost.
[12:33]So some Delta flyers may say to me,
[12:34]Brian, I understand I could be earning way more valuable
[12:38]chase points, but by spending on a Delta card,
[12:40]I'm able to just barely get diamond status,
[12:43]and that diamond opens up $10,000 a year in value
[12:47]because I get to use those upgrades,
[12:49]to upgrade to Europe or to Haiti, which is fine.
[12:53]But what I want everyone to do is there's no one size
[12:55]fits all answer, and I want people to understand
[12:59]the value of the perks they're getting,
[13:01]and understand that if you're gonna get perks
[13:03]from a hotel credit card,
[13:05]just make sure that they outweigh the value of the points
[13:08]you could have had by using much better cards
[13:12]for points earning.
[13:13]And in general, you should probably have
[13:15]a couple different credit cards.
[13:16]I know people, this is where people start to get uncomfortable.
[13:19]I have 28 credit cards and a near perfect,
[13:21]over 800 credit score, and this is the beauty of this game.
[13:26]And the U.S. is the global epicenter for points
[13:29]and credit cards, this is what I wanna let people know
[13:31]that we are living, if you talk to any of your friends
[13:34]in any other countries, they are jealous,
[13:36]because they only have a handful of points cards,
[13:38]and in the U.S. we've got probably 25 amazing credit cards,
[13:43]and the joy of it is you can get sign up bonuses
[13:46]for a credit card that are worth well over $1,000.
[13:49]Especially if you're married,
[13:51]we call this two-player mode,
[13:52]don't just have one person getting a credit card,
[13:55]but the biggest thing is your credit score goes up,
[13:58]and I talk about this a lot in the book,
[14:00]and this is the joy of the points game is
[14:02]when you play this smartly,
[14:03]and you have to pay your credit cards often
[14:05]full every month to avoid the interest.
[14:07]If you're paying interest on your card,
[14:08]you're losing at the points game,
[14:10]but if you know how to budget your money,
[14:12]you purchase on a credit card,
[14:14]you get the points, you pay it off,
[14:15]you avoid the interest,
[14:17]and FICO, the number two factors of your credit score,
[14:20]paying your bills on time,
[14:21]so just make sure you pay them on time,
[14:22]which, and you're available credit to debt ratio.
[14:27]This is your utilization score.
[14:29]So the more credit cards you have open,
[14:31]the more available credit you have,
[14:33]and you're not using it,
[14:34]because you're being very responsible
[14:36]and paying it off and full, your score goes up.
[14:39]So this is the joy of the points game for consumers,
[14:41]especially consumers who, you know,
[14:43]this time of inflation,
[14:44]you're finding a hard to make ends meet,
[14:45]to do that family trip,
[14:47]you can get credit cards,
[14:49]get the huge sign up bonus,
[14:51]then start earning points on category bonuses,
[14:53]because a lot of these credit cards will get four X here,
[14:56]and your credit score goes up.
[14:58]So when you wanna get a mortgage,
[14:59]your mortgage rates go down.
[15:01]So I have this saying, like winning at travel,
[15:04]winning at points is winning at life,
[15:06]because I firmly believe it engages you
[15:08]in our financial system,
[15:10]it gives you that mentality of understanding how the system
[15:13]works and how to get your fair share out of it.
[15:16]Is there an actual points game?
[15:18]Is there a board game or a computer?
[15:20]There should be.
[15:21]Why is there not?
[15:22]Yeah, well, because the game itself is the game,
[15:25]you know, like people, it is, you know, just understanding.
[15:29]But the game that you are playing is at a level
[15:32]that like, I'm like, I'm following, I'm following,
[15:35]you know, and I, what if there was just a game
[15:38]that was like, that's good to just
[15:40]to get people used to it,
[15:41]like a monopoly of points, that's a good idea.
[15:44]As you know, writing and promoting a book
[15:47]is a full-time job.
[15:47]So once this is fully done,
[15:49]then I'm gonna create the game.
[15:52]But it's, this is a game like I joke
[15:54]that this is like some people have crosswords
[15:56]and I mean, I love the New York Times games every morning.
[15:58]That's my ritual to do my,
[16:00]but the beauty of the points game is your prize.
[16:03]Isn't just like bragging to your family,
[16:05]friend group on text that you got,
[16:07]you know, you got a total in three or two.
[16:09]The winning at the points game is saying,
[16:12]I'm going to Florence and it was $29 in business class.
[16:16]And that's what I just tell people is that
[16:17]in Dorefin Rush you get when you finally crack it,
[16:21]you know, the code.
[16:23]And it's not always just first class trips to Italy.
[16:25]I want everyone to understand points
[16:27]are an insurance policy.
[16:29]When you have a bunch of points,
[16:31]because one of the best things that come out of the pandemic
[16:33]is that the airlines now let you,
[16:35]all the major US airlines,
[16:37]you can cancel your points reservations up until departure
[16:40]for free and you get all your points back.
[16:41]And so follow me here.
[16:44]You're at the airport.
[16:45]You're flying an airline and all of a sudden
[16:47]you're delayed delayed delayed.
[16:48]I talk about, I have a whole chapter on when things go wrong.
[16:52]I want people to think, you have points
[16:54]in a big points currency and you've really got to get
[16:58]to Salt Lake, to see family.
[17:00]And you know, there's a flight on another carrier.
[17:02]What I do is I instantly will just check to see
[17:05]what other flights on other carriers later that day.
[17:06]And I book it just so I have peace of mind
[17:09]that I'm getting to Salt Lake today
[17:11]because I need to be at that event.
[17:13]If your flight goes out on time,
[17:14]you can just click one button in the app.
[17:16]You can't still get your points of miles back.
[17:19]But this is why people expect the airlines
[17:21]to take care of you.
[17:22]And you're going to wait in an hour long line.
[17:24]You're going to get a surly agent who's like,
[17:26]no, you can fly standby tomorrow.
[17:28]And you're like, no, no, no, that's not how it's going to work.
[17:30]But instead of fighting with that agent,
[17:33]you have to become your own best advocate.
[17:35]And when you have points and when you're on a family trip
[17:38]in Europe and you get a call that a family member
[17:40]sick and you need to come back to the US,
[17:43]if you call the airline on a paid ticket,
[17:44]they're going to fleece you.
[17:45]They're going to charge you $5,000 a ticket
[17:47]to get that last minute trip.
[17:49]But what people don't know is that airlines
[17:51]are also releasing tons of first class award tickets
[17:54]at the lowest levels last minute.
[17:56]Procrastinating last minute bookings
[17:58]are some of the best times to use points to get home.
[18:02]And so if you ever have to come home
[18:03]or you want to come home early,
[18:04]you really miss your kids.
[18:06]You call the airline to change your ticket.
[18:07]And they're like, it's going to be $6,000 a person.
[18:09]You're like, okay, well, I don't really want to get home
[18:11]that much.
[18:12]But when you use points, you go on the app
[18:14]and you'll say 60,000 points to fly Swiss air business
[18:17]class done.
[18:19]So points and when you get this world,
[18:22]it will change your mentality and kind of give you
[18:25]more confidence in traveling because the feeling
[18:27]of without breaking the bank or spending a fortune,
[18:30]I can get anywhere I need in the world
[18:32]or fly my family members here on a minutes notice
[18:35]without it throwing my budget for the year at a whack
[18:40]is pretty incredible.
[18:42]I'm just always afraid that if I spend them,
[18:44]there'll be a time where I really need them later.
[18:46]Yeah, that's a part of our points hoarding epidemic.
[18:50]And I'm sure there are some points hoarders here.
[18:52]And points hoarding.
[18:53]Yes, I can see you.
[18:54]Yes, I can.
[18:54]Order, yeah.
[18:55]Look, I get that it feels good to see these big balances,
[18:58]but there is a downside to that FOMO of a later deal
[19:02]because in general, as I mentioned,
[19:05]these frequent flyer programs, I want everyone
[19:07]to understand like there's airlines these days
[19:10]are essentially loyalty programs that have some planes
[19:13]that fly airlines make way more money printing these frequent
[19:17]flyer miles and selling them to banks than they do
[19:20]actually flying planes.
[19:22]Almost every airline in America would be unprofitable
[19:26]if it were not for their loyalty and their credit card
[19:28]program Delta leads the pack.
[19:30]I mean, 1% of total US GDP goes on a Delta Amex card.
[19:35]But what does that mean?
[19:35]That means every single day billions of new Delta miles
[19:39]are being printed by everyone using their credit cards.
[19:42]Delta doesn't have that many more planes.
[19:45]They actually can't get enough planes.
[19:46]So the capacity on flights is staying the same,
[19:49]but so many more miles are being, you know,
[19:51]since the start of this podcast, you know, billions more miles.
[19:56]So how does Delta, and it's a brilliant business model,
[19:58]Delta can click a computer and.
[20:00]say, okay, well, that flight from LA to JFK that used to be 40,000 miles.
[20:05]It's now 50, so that overnight they're what called
[20:08]devaluations where the airline just keep increasing the amount.
[20:11]So for all of you who are holding points for a future date,
[20:15]just understand this would be like putting your retirement funds in a checking
[20:19]account. You would lose all day every day to inflation if you did that.
[20:26]So by just letting your miles sit there in accounts,
[20:28]don't earn interest and that are being devalued every day.
[20:32]You're doing yourself a disservice.
[20:33]So that's not to say go out and just, you know, burn them on gift cards or
[20:38]something, but put them to use.
[20:40]Take the money off the table today, even if it's for domestic tickets,
[20:44]for your kids or whatever, instead of spending the 600 bucks or whatever,
[20:47]just take that money today, think about that money saved.
[20:50]You could put it in an investment account, but it is a losing proposition.
[20:55]over time to save them for an unknown future use.
[20:59]Why are you not like the CEO of United?
[21:06]That would be no fun.
[21:07]I'm much before people are always like, why do you want to become a pilot?
[21:10]I'm like, no, I like drinking champagne in the live flat bed.
[21:13]Like I couldn't drink champagne and enjoy myself.
[21:17]You know, I love working for consumers.
[21:21]Like and I have the best job in the world.
[21:24]I truly like when I get to walk through the airport and people come up to me
[21:27]and their eyes light up because I'm teaching people how to get value that's in
[21:32]front of them today.
[21:33]And there's no greater joy when it clicks with people.
[21:36]And that's why I wrote this book.
[21:37]You know, the points guy started 15 years ago actually this week.
[21:41]And, you know, we have so many blog posts over time and it's really confusing.
[21:45]So to me, this book is like the on-ramp for every day people,
[21:50]like you can't have an excuse.
[21:52]I made it pretty simple.
[21:53]It can still get a little complex in the book.
[21:56]But what I tell you about this, like with anything financial,
[21:59]you can't just Google what's the best mortgage for me right now.
[22:01]Just give it to me.
[22:02]I don't want to do any research, right?
[22:03]Like we all have to do a little bit of, you know, taking time to understand
[22:09]these systems and how to get the most out of us.
[22:11]There is no best one mortgage for everyone because it depends on where you live
[22:15]and your credit.
[22:16]And that's the same for the points world.
[22:18]But once you get it and then once you start flying
[22:21]and I will warn everyone listening,
[22:24]the points will allow you to start flying business class
[22:26]when you might not otherwise be able to afford it.
[22:29]But I will warn you now.
[22:30]Once you start turning left on a plane,
[22:34]it is very hard to go back.
[22:36]So if you fly economy today and you're like,
[22:40]this I'm fine with it, stay there.
[22:42]LAUGHTER
[22:44]Because...
[22:45]Because...
[22:46]Yeah, no.
[22:47]But...
[22:48]But...
[22:49]Yeah, so I love being in this in between of being able to like help consumers navigate
[22:54]this crazy, constantly changing space.
[22:58]And yeah, no, I wouldn't want to work for an airline.
[23:03]OK.
[23:04]Great.
[23:05]All right.
[23:06]You keep doing you.
[23:07]Brian, thank you so much.
[23:08]Thank you for all you do to help all the rest of us live better lives.
[23:10]Thank you so much for having me.
[23:13]Thank you for listening.
[23:14]To totally booked with Zibi,
[23:15]formerly Momstone have time to read books.
[23:18]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[23:21]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[23:24]and spread the word.
[23:25]Thanks so much.
[23:26]Oh, and buy the books.