Gretchen Rubin, SECRETS OF ADULTHOOD: Simple Truths for Our Complex Lives
[0:00]Welcome back to Totally Booked Live.
[0:03]I am so excited to be here with Gretchen Rubin.
[0:07]I'm so happy to be here.
[0:09]Oh my gosh.
[0:11]We're going to talk all about secrets of adulthood,
[0:13]but I'll just read a quick bio and here's
[0:15]read something by Gretchen Rubin.
[0:17]Like everybody.
[0:18]Thank you.
[0:19]Gold Star.
[0:21]OK, Gretchen Rubin is one of today's most influential
[0:24]observers of happiness and human nature.
[0:26]She's the author of many books, including
[0:28]The Blockbuster, New York Times best
[0:30]sellers, the happiness project, the four tendencies,
[0:33]better than before, and life in five senses.
[0:35]Her books have sold more than 3.5 million copies worldwide
[0:39]in more than 30 languages.
[0:40]That must feel good.
[0:41]It does.
[0:42]Good.
[0:43]There we go.
[0:45]She hosts the top-ranking award-winning podcast,
[0:47]Happier with Gretchen Rubin, where she
[0:49]explores practical solutions for living a happier life.
[0:52]Raised in Kansas City, she lives in New York City
[0:54]with her family.
[0:56]Yay.
[0:56]I'm so happy to be talking to everybody today.
[0:59]Thank you for having me.
[1:00]Hey, can I just point out, did you coordinate her outfit
[1:03]with the cover?
[1:05]Can I just say that is next level, right?
[1:08]I mean, I've got to give good service.
[1:10]I know the attention to details are remarkable.
[1:14]OK, secrets of adulthood, simple truths
[1:16]for our complex lives.
[1:18]Explain the concept for the book.
[1:19]OK, so a couple of different strands came together.
[1:22]First of all, I wanted to collect the secrets of adulthood
[1:26]that I had learned with time and experience,
[1:28]usually the hard way, to give to my two daughters,
[1:32]who were going off into the world.
[1:34]And so I wanted to save them some of the suffering
[1:37]or frustration that I felt was passing along what I'd learned.
[1:41]But just as much I realized once I started keeping track
[1:43]of them, I wanted to keep them for myself.
[1:45]Because I have to keep learning the same lessons
[1:47]over and over.
[1:48]Like, working is one of the most dangerous forms
[1:50]of procrastination, or something that can be done at any time
[1:54]is often done at no time.
[1:56]And I have to learn that over and over.
[1:58]And as I was gathering these, I also
[2:00]wanted to push myself to really use the form of the aphorism.
[2:04]Now, I don't use the word aphorism in the title or subtitle
[2:08]because nobody knows what an aphorism is.
[2:10]But essentially, an aphorism is just a general observation
[2:13]about human nature that's attributed to a person.
[2:16]So there are proverbs like, you can't push a rope.
[2:20]That's folk wisdom.
[2:22]But with an aphorism, it's like Oscar Wilde said it,
[2:24]or Warren Buffet said it, or Montana said it.
[2:28]But it's a very demanding form,
[2:31]because it's very hard to rate short.
[2:34]You know, like that letter, where somebody said,
[2:35]sorry, I wrote you a long letter.
[2:37]I didn't have time to write a short one.
[2:39]I didn't like crystallize my thoughts in a very short way.
[2:42]So both of, I wanted to do both of those things.
[2:45]And so I started keeping this giant list of my aphorisms.
[2:50]And then from those, I picked out the ones
[2:52]that were secrets of adulthood.
[2:53]And some of these are other people's thoughts
[2:56]and some are yours.
[2:57]No, they're all mine.
[2:58]They're all yours.
[2:58]These are all mine.
[2:59]Yeah.
[3:00]Oh my gosh.
[3:00]Yeah.
[3:01]Yeah.
[3:01]Well, so that's why it's not a quote book.
[3:03]Right.
[3:04]Oh my gosh.
[3:05]I could do a quotation book.
[3:06]I have literally thousands of quotations,
[3:10]like that's one of my favorite things to do
[3:12]is to collect quotations.
[3:15]So I would love to do that one day.
[3:16]But no, these are all from me.
[3:17]Now, I feel like you're even wiser than I previously
[3:20]believed.
[3:20]Come on.
[3:22]But you may not agree with all of them.
[3:24]And that's kind of the fun of the aphorism
[3:26]is because it's so short.
[3:27]It's easier to think about.
[3:29]You can sort of think, well, do I agree with this?
[3:32]What are examples that I see of this in my own life?
[3:34]Or do I reject it?
[3:36]Do I disagree?
[3:37]Or do I have my own twist?
[3:38]Like I was talking to somebody.
[3:40]One of the secrets of adulthood is we care for many people.
[3:44]We don't particularly care for.
[3:48]And somebody who is a fellow writer said,
[3:51]well, we care about many people.
[3:53]We don't particularly care about,
[3:55]meaning like people who write mean reviews on Amazon.
[3:58]We care about them, even though we don't particularly care
[4:01]about them.
[4:01]So it's interesting how, or like working
[4:04]as one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination,
[4:06]I meant that like, you know, as a writer,
[4:09]said I was like, instead of actually writing,
[4:11]I'll do research, you know, like, I need to research this.
[4:14]It's like three hours later, you know?
[4:16]Or a friend of mine is like, I'm rethinking my font.
[4:19]I'm like, let me jump in and say that's not work.
[4:23]But he said, no, I think working
[4:26]is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination
[4:28]means that sometimes it's easier to keep working
[4:31]than to do the hard work of dealing with what's at home.
[4:35]And I thought, well, that's such a,
[4:37]so sometimes the ambiguity that comes from being so brief
[4:40]actually like allows for more interpretation,
[4:45]which I think is kind of intellectually stimulating.
[4:48]They're all kind of a row shark test
[4:49]or what we're all going through.
[4:51]Yeah.
[4:51]Yes.
[4:52]When you tell someone you're getting into a divorce,
[4:53]like half the people cry and you're like,
[4:55]well, no, I know a little something about that.
[4:56]Yes, yes, exactly.
[4:58]Just kidding.
[4:59]Just kidding if that was you.
[5:00]Yeah.
[5:01]Yeah.
[5:02]To your point on working, can I read
[5:05]if you have your answers?
[5:06]Yes, I'm working.
[5:08]In addition to working as one of the most dangerous forms
[5:10]of procrastination, he said, nothing is more exhausting
[5:13]than the task that's never started.
[5:15]Oh, yeah, I suffer from that.
[5:17]What can be done at any time is often done at no time.
[5:20]Yeah.
[5:21]And this is one of my favorites.
[5:22]Perfectionism is driven not by high standards,
[5:25]but by anxiety.
[5:27]Yeah.
[5:27]And then finally last year, we could talk about all these.
[5:29]One of the worst uses of time is to do something well
[5:32]that need not be done at all.
[5:34]Yes.
[5:35]Yes, which is so good.
[5:37]Think about this on so many levels.
[5:39]Well, it's funny because a lot of these aphorisms come out
[5:42]of something that happened to me or a conversation that I had
[5:45]or something that I read or a TV.
[5:49]There's something that got me thinking about it.
[5:51]But part of the fun of an aphorism is the drop
[5:54]mic quality where you just say it and don't elaborate.
[5:57]A few of these have elaborations, because I couldn't resist.
[6:00]But the story about that, what got me thinking about that
[6:03]aphorism was, so if you listen to the happier podcast,
[6:07]my sister Elizabeth is very, very messy.
[6:09]She's totally, she's clutter blind and she's extremely messy.
[6:12]And every once in a while, she will
[6:14]graciously allow me to go over and help her clear her clutter.
[6:17]And she was, we were doing this and she had just giant stacks
[6:21]of unopened mail, which, of course, threw me into a panic.
[6:24]So we're going through her mail.
[6:26]And she's a TV writer, so she's a member of the Writers Guild.
[6:29]And one of the things that she had was she just had so many
[6:33]unopened statements from the Writers Guild.
[6:35]And so she's looking at these and she's like, OK, this is my plan.
[6:38]I'm going to open these up, I'll get like a buy a three-hole punch.
[6:43]And some binders.
[6:45]And then I'll arrange them chronologically.
[6:47]And then they'll be really neatly on the shelves.
[6:50]And I was like, OK, but you've never opened these.
[6:56]Do you need them?
[6:57]Do you ever use them?
[6:58]And she said, no, but I might use them.
[7:00]And I said, yeah, but could you just contact a WGA and say,
[7:03]like, hey, I need my records related to something or some time
[7:07]period?
[7:07]And she's like, yeah, I'm sure I could.
[7:09]So it's like, but she was really getting ready to just
[7:14]spend hours in an organizational effort that she didn't need at all.
[7:21]Or people that somebody was elaborately alphabetizing their books
[7:24]and not to be mean.
[7:25]But I'm like, this is not a person who's
[7:26]going back and looking for a novel that they read five years ago.
[7:30]You didn't mean it's not that kind of person.
[7:32]Are you sure you need to be keeping these alphabetized?
[7:35]You can if you want, but you don't really need to.
[7:37]I have to alphabetize because I'm always looking for things.
[7:40]But maybe you don't need to do that work.
[7:44]It's always worth thinking about.
[7:46]It's always worth thinking about.
[7:47]And to your point earlier, you also have an algorithm that says
[7:51]something like, if you haven't used something in five years,
[7:54]you're OK to give it away.
[7:56]Or if you don't remember that you had it.
[7:58]Oh, yeah, if you don't remember that you had it.
[8:00]And I'm like, well, I remember that sweater.
[8:02]Where is that?
[8:03]Yes.
[8:04]Yeah, time to give it away.
[8:05]I remember once I was helping my husband
[8:07]being at his closet.
[8:08]And I was holding up two pairs of pants at a time.
[8:11]And he would say, yes, or give away.
[8:13]And I held her pair of pants.
[8:14]He goes, I've never seen that pair of pants before in my life.
[8:16]And I'm like, well, I guess somebody broke in and put him in here
[8:20]because I didn't buy him.
[8:21]And he's like, I honestly have no idea where this came from.
[8:24]It's like, well, either you now have a pair of pants
[8:29]or it's time to get rid of them.
[8:30]Because if you don't know, you have it.
[8:32]And I have shortening pants, too.
[8:34]And you have something like if you had shortening.
[8:36]OK, so some people disagree with this.
[8:40]My secret of adulthood is if you don't like a pair of pants,
[8:43]don't pay to get them hemmed.
[8:45]How many people agree with me?
[8:47]Right?
[8:48]Because somebody was like, no, 1,000% you should get them hem.
[8:51]Because maybe they'll be fine.
[8:52]And then you'll have a whole pair of pants.
[8:53]I'm like, not in my experience that never works.
[8:56]But anyway, so many people agree.
[8:58]But your mileage may differ.
[8:59]You have to hem like every pair of pants, and so it's hard
[9:02]to distribute.
[9:03]OK, that's right.
[9:04]That's right.
[9:05]That's right.
[9:05]But yeah, you can't throw good money after bad.
[9:07]Right?
[9:08]Yeah, it's metaphorically true as well as literally true.
[9:13]Talk about anxiety.
[9:14]Perfectionism and anxiety.
[9:16]Well, it's interesting because I write so much about happiness.
[9:18]People would often talk to me about perfectionism.
[9:20]And what's confusing and misleading about perfectionism
[9:27]is that people think, well, if I'm
[9:30]trying to deal with my perfectionism,
[9:31]I have to lower my standards.
[9:33]But I don't want to lower my standards.
[9:35]But the fact is that doesn't even really help.
[9:38]Because what perfectionism is is the anxiety.
[9:41]It's like the anxiety of being judged.
[9:42]It's the anxiety of being done.
[9:44]It's the anxiety of like that I make the right decisions
[9:47]or not or have I not made a decision yet at all.
[9:50]Because I'm so worried about it.
[9:52]And so when you're struggling with perfectionism,
[9:54]you should really look to your anxiety
[9:56]and dealing with the anxiety, not dealing with the standards.
[10:00]It's kind of a misplaced.
[10:01]Well, another aphorism is the place that hurts
[10:03]isn't always the place that's injured.
[10:05]And I think perfectionism is something like that.
[10:07]It's misdirected attention.
[10:09]It's like, it's not the standards, it's the worry.
[10:13]I still don't totally get how that works in my body.
[10:16]And like, you fix something and you're neck
[10:17]and all of a sudden, like your leg is better.
[10:18]No, no, yeah, they're like, it's your hip flexor.
[10:20]I know, I'm like, it was my hip flexor.
[10:22]It's always a flexor.
[10:24]Yeah, yeah.
[10:25]Or your rotator cuff.
[10:27]More of the hip flexor for me, but anyway.
[10:29]OK, here are a few more.
[10:32]These are on desire.
[10:33]Nothing attracts people's interest,
[10:35]like the attempt to keep something hidden.
[10:37]Everyone wants to open the box labeled confidential.
[10:40]Yeah.
[10:40]Well, and then I had a whole anecdote
[10:42]which then I ended up taking out
[10:43]about the stray sand effect.
[10:45]Does anybody know about the stray sand effect?
[10:47]OK, so I'm going to get the details wrong.
[10:48]But essentially, the stray sand effect
[10:50]is the psychological phenomenon that if you try to hide
[10:54]something, people, you'll attract people's attention.
[10:56]So Barbara Streisand, the California Coast Guard
[10:59]had taken a lot of pictures to try to capture
[11:04]like where the land was because of erosion and whatever.
[11:08]And so there were all of these pictures of oceanfront
[11:13]property.
[11:14]And so Barbara Streisand's lawyers tried
[11:16]to get them to take down the pictures for her house.
[11:18]Now, before they had started this action,
[11:21]like six people had looked at these images,
[11:23]like three of which were her own lawyers.
[11:25]And nobody was paying any attention to them.
[11:27]The minute they did this, of course, there
[11:29]was millions and like TMZ and everybody's writing about it,
[11:32]because it's like, what is she trying to hide?
[11:35]So it is, but it's just the minute, if you remember
[11:41]like parental warnings on TV or rated
[11:47]or it just makes people want to watch more.
[11:49]Well, I have to say I read this.
[11:51]And then later I was writing an email.
[11:53]And I was like, ooh.
[11:54]And then I changed, delete, delete, delete
[11:56]on my subject.
[11:56]And I wrote, confidential.
[11:59]Oh, that is a good one.
[12:02]That's a good one.
[12:03]It's all you.
[12:04]Yes.
[12:06]I can do that to trick my husband.
[12:09]He was so sad.
[12:10]Nothing makes you feel like an expert more than a microphone.
[12:13]And here we are.
[12:13]And here we are.
[12:15]Yeah, no, it does.
[12:16]It really works.
[12:18]It really does work.
[12:19]Why did you not call this book Secrets of Life?
[12:25]So I had this giant trove of aphorisms.
[12:27]And I decided that I wanted to choose the ones
[12:31]where I thought they would be like an answer
[12:36]to a perplexity that you face in adulthood.
[12:40]And life just felt more general and more observational.
[12:44]But adulthood felt more like, because I don't know.
[12:46]I mean, I never feel like an adult.
[12:48]And a lot of other adults say they don't really
[12:49]feel like adults either.
[12:50]So it's kind of like this idea of adult
[12:53]is being the ones who are taking control
[12:55]and making decisions and doing things
[12:57]where life feels more and more general.
[13:00]It's funny that because I have other aphorisms
[13:03]that I would call mere observations,
[13:05]like a dog doesn't gaze at a waterfall,
[13:08]which is interesting, but it's a mere observation.
[13:11]It's not a secret of adulthood.
[13:12]I cannot see that far.
[13:14]No, it's because we look at a waterfall
[13:16]because we're like, look at the evanescence of beauty
[13:18]or like what is the meaning of life?
[13:20]And a dog is like, they're not looking at the end
[13:23]but I don't gaze at the moon or whatever, you know?
[13:26]I don't know, I have a soulful dog, but it's okay.
[13:28]I want to just your butt kiss, but yeah.
[13:31]Well, okay, you can disagree.
[13:34]And then I have my dark aphorisms,
[13:36]which are like bleak observations
[13:38]that I thought, I don't know if anybody wants to read these.
[13:41]Yeah, totally.
[13:42]So that'll be volume two.
[13:43]That'll be Gretchen Rubin after dark.
[13:45]Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[13:47]It's more that they're judgy than that they're about death.
[13:50]Okay.
[13:51]The aphorism is a very judgy form,
[13:53]like you really have to fight against just the judginess of it.
[13:56]And yeah, and my dark aphorisms are some of them
[13:59]are kind of judgy if I do say, you know?
[14:01]So I never thought of them as aphorisms,
[14:03]but I have a few like saying-
[14:05]Okay, yeah, no, that's it.
[14:06]Which is kind of-
[14:07]And there's room at the back for people to write their own
[14:09]because a lot of times people don't realize they have them
[14:11]until they start reading them.
[14:12]And they're like, oh, I have one.
[14:13]Okay, what are yours?
[14:14]I love the element of greeting cards, actually.
[14:16]Oh, that's sweet.
[14:17]The few weeks do little, you can buy them.
[14:18]But anyway, one is always go to parties in the rain.
[14:21]Because those are always the best parties.
[14:22]And nobody ever wants to go.
[14:24]That's a group.
[14:25]And then-
[14:26]That's literally-
[14:27]I'm like, oh no, I have my saying, I'm gonna go.
[14:28]So it also forces me to go.
[14:30]That's true.
[14:31]That's literally true and metaphorically true.
[14:34]Oh, I like that.
[14:35]Also, never turned down a glass of champagne.
[14:38]Okay, I have never turned down a cup of coffee.
[14:41]Oh, okay.
[14:42]Yeah, okay.
[14:43]Oh, that says something about both of them.
[14:44]That's good, that's good.
[14:46]That's good, that's good.
[14:47]I like that.
[14:48]So yeah, it's fine.
[14:49]It's very creatively satisfying to write them down.
[14:52]Those are my only two.
[14:53]No, that's-
[14:54]I thought you'd have more.
[14:55]I thought you would have nothing said.
[14:57]You don't have any related to reading.
[15:01]I'm like, always be willing to put down a book halfway.
[15:04]Well, this is more a quote
[15:05]because my therapist once had to mow my old therapist
[15:07]and I had time for therapy.
[15:08]Said, you'll never be with a good book,
[15:11]you'll never be lonely.
[15:12]Yeah, yeah.
[15:13]And that's probably not her either.
[15:14]It's probably like someone really can't.
[15:15]Like a folk wisdom, yeah.
[15:16]But I paid her for that advice.
[15:18]Yeah, yeah, that's good.
[15:19]Well, clearly, yeah, yes, yes.
[15:21]You were your running with it.
[15:23]Okay, millions of books sold.
[15:27]You used to be a lawyer.
[15:28]You made this pivot.
[15:29]You talk about this in the book as well.
[15:32]What does this feel like now?
[15:33]How do you keep it going?
[15:34]And to everyone else who's just trying to sell like 300 books,
[15:38]how do you do it?
[15:39]What is the secret secrets of writinghood?
[15:42]See, I have one piece of advice
[15:46]that I give to everybody who's trying to write.
[15:48]And that is to have something to say.
[15:51]Because if you have something to say,
[15:53]it's much easier.
[15:54]And this sounds kind of almost silly,
[15:57]but very often if you're stuck in writing,
[15:59]it's because you're really just trying to write words,
[16:03]you know, and then it's very, it comes very hard.
[16:07]It's very cliche, it's awful.
[16:10]But when you really have something to communicate,
[16:13]even if your writing is bad,
[16:15]like you had this feeling of satisfaction
[16:17]of communicating, I think it was somebody like John Cheever
[16:27]or somebody said that it was like,
[16:30]it's the pleasure of having news.
[16:33]Like do you have news?
[16:34]And I think that's, and then you have to really know yourself
[16:38]about how to set your, this is my whole book
[16:40]Better Than Before, which is like how to stick to a habit
[16:43]because I could tell you how, I stick to habit
[16:45]which is like to write every single day.
[16:49]I did write from like five, 30 to nine a.m.,
[16:51]my most difficult writing,
[16:53]because I'm such a morning person,
[16:54]but now I have a new puppy.
[16:55]And so like she's kind of messed that up, but worth it.
[17:00]But like I know, that's what I do, my best writing.
[17:02]So I always would keep that for doing original writing,
[17:05]which is the hardest kind of work that I do.
[17:07]But like for many people keeping a schedule is very useful.
[17:10]But for some people, it's like actually kind of productive
[17:13]and you should not try to keep a schedule.
[17:14]If you find yourself resisting a schedule,
[17:16]don't try to give yourself a schedule.
[17:18]Some people desperately,
[17:19]they absolutely have to have accountability.
[17:23]If they're gonna stick to it,
[17:24]so they need a deadline, they need an accountability partner
[17:26]or writing group or a deadline,
[17:28]or you know an agent who's asking them for stuff
[17:31]or a friend who's asking them for stuff.
[17:35]That's my four tendencies framework.
[17:37]So you can take the quiz on my site
[17:39]and find out which of these applies to you.
[17:42]And it will tell you kind of like how to use it.
[17:45]I last talked to Gretchen about the four tendencies
[17:47]and took the quiz and I had everyone in my family
[17:49]take the quiz and I have four kids
[17:51]and they all have a different tendency,
[17:53]which all require different communication,
[17:56]different ways to explain everything.
[17:57]I'm like, oh, what this explains a lot.
[17:59]Right, right, right.
[18:00]It sounds like a lot, but it's actually easier
[18:02]because it's like, yeah, because then you're like,
[18:03]oh, now I understand like why this one won't do.
[18:06]It doesn't behave like that one.
[18:07]Yeah.
[18:08]I'm like, oh, it's okay.
[18:09]It's just, yeah.
[18:10]It's really coming to me too, yeah.
[18:11]Yeah.
[18:12]Yeah, exactly.
[18:13]All these frameworks, you've helped.
[18:14]I love a four-handed word.
[18:15]They say they're two kinds of people in the world,
[18:17]the kind of people who divide the world
[18:19]and the two kinds of people and those who don't.
[18:22]And I'm definitely the kind who does.
[18:24]I love a, I love a, are you this or are you that?
[18:27]Oh, I should come up on the fly with like 20 of them for you.
[18:30]Yeah.
[18:32]I can't though.
[18:33]Okay.
[18:35]Okay, are you a fiction or nonfiction reader?
[18:38]Both.
[18:39]I grew up totally on fiction,
[18:40]but now I do read nonfiction.
[18:43]Are you an edit heavily your podcast?
[18:47]Okay, I can't do it this way.
[18:48]Okay.
[18:49]Okay.
[18:50]Talking about your podcast are a little bit
[18:51]because you've had that for 10 years, 10 years.
[18:54]Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
[18:56]And we've never missed a week.
[18:57]We're so vain about that.
[19:00]What, how do you do a week when you're going
[19:02]through something really hard?
[19:04]We know that it's coming.
[19:06]Usually we do it week to week,
[19:08]but we will sometimes like go two weeks in advance
[19:11]just to have one in the can.
[19:12]Yeah.
[19:13]And what is it about the podcast
[19:14]that brings you joy or that keeps it,
[19:16]that why you keep doing it?
[19:17]Oh my gosh, so many things.
[19:18]Well, I do it with my sister.
[19:19]And like my sister and I had always had,
[19:21]had wanted to collaborate creatively
[19:23]for a really long time.
[19:24]So this is super satisfying that we found something.
[19:28]So if just, it's not everybody would wanna
[19:30]like be in business that they're a sister,
[19:32]but I'm very lucky that we, that we are,
[19:34]that we're doing that.
[19:36]Actually, you know, you're talking to Susie,
[19:39]about Susie Welch's book, okay, the values.
[19:41]So Susie Welch has this amazing,
[19:44]if you love a categorization values thing
[19:47]where you can go online and find out what your values are.
[19:51]And there are 15 values and my sister and I both took it.
[19:55]My sister and I have the very same top five values
[19:57]in different order, but that's gotta be pretty.
[20:00]be unusual, right, at 15 that you have the same top five.
[20:03]Anyway, so we're very much like, so that's a huge joy.
[20:06]And then I love talking about this stuff.
[20:07]So it's fun to talk about it in a,
[20:10]like I could have an idea and immediately talk about it
[20:12]where some book it's so protracted, you know?
[20:14]And maybe I have an idea that doesn't fit
[20:17]into whatever book I'm writing right now.
[20:19]So that's exciting.
[20:20]And you can, you get so much response.
[20:24]So I feel like the world is my research assistant.
[20:26]Like I'm right at my next book
[20:28]is gonna be about the empty nest.
[20:29]And people know that.
[20:30]And so like people will say,
[20:32]have you watched this TV show?
[20:33]Have you read this novel?
[20:34]What about this study?
[20:35]So it's great.
[20:36]And then, or we'll talk about an idea.
[20:38]And we'll see, you know, examples for people's lives
[20:42]or something we got wrong or, you know,
[20:46]taking an idea and putting a twist on it.
[20:48]So it's just, it's very creatively satisfying and fun.
[20:52]And Elizabeth and I are both writers
[20:53]and she's a TV writer.
[20:55]And so we're so fiddly with our writing.
[20:59]It's fun to talk about ideas and like not worry about like,
[21:01]well, is this a better verb or is that a better verb, you know?
[21:04]It's kind of fun to just, whatever verb you say,
[21:06]you can use.
[21:07]Yeah, interesting.
[21:10]Being in the public eye
[21:11]because you've become such an expert on so many things.
[21:14]An expert on happiness, if you can even achieve that.
[21:17]And it's very fun.
[21:18]Just so many different things.
[21:22]What does that feel like to you?
[21:23]Like when you're walking down the street
[21:25]or when you're at a conference or whatever,
[21:27]like one of the values in the grid is like valuing
[21:30]that in and of itself.
[21:32]Like being someone that gets recognized
[21:34]or can be respected.
[21:35]Luminous, okay.
[21:36]Yeah. We're not going to have somebody else's framework.
[21:38]Yeah, yeah.
[21:38]This is super welter since the Welch Bristol inventory
[21:41]called values bridge.
[21:42]Yeah.
[21:43]Obviously, I love a framework.
[21:44]Yeah, yeah.
[21:45]But what is that like for you?
[21:48]And does it help or hurt your work?
[21:50]Like just how is it, is it something you expected?
[21:52]Is it something very important to you?
[21:54]I certainly didn't expect it.
[21:56]I really enjoy it.
[21:57]Like if I like it when somebody,
[21:59]because I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day,
[22:01]people kind of know that I might be lurking about.
[22:03]And so people will often stop me there.
[22:06]And I really, really like it.
[22:07]So I enjoy that part of it.
[22:09]It's funny, a lot of people seem to think
[22:11]that I would feel a lot of pressure to be happy all the time,
[22:14]which I really do not feel that pressure
[22:16]to be happy all the time or to behave well all the time.
[22:20]Because of the new puppy, my husband and I were,
[22:23]because I am such a rule follower.
[22:25]I was like, you know, they said we have to do it this way,
[22:27]or this way, and my husband said to me very gently,
[22:31]you're being very critical.
[22:33]And I don't like it.
[22:34]And I was like, OK, I appreciate you said this in a calm way,
[22:38]because I'm getting kind of worked out.
[22:40]Anyway, so.
[22:42]And can you give us a quick preview of what
[22:45]to know about the empty nest?
[22:46]Oh, interesting.
[22:47]I know, you've got a waste to go.
[22:49]You've got a waste to go.
[22:51]No, I'm so, I'm so fascinated about it.
[22:55]Yeah, and anybody hit me up if you have any insights,
[22:57]observations, questions.
[23:00]What I think is interesting about the empty nest
[23:01]is that for many people, it is a forced reckoning
[23:05]and adulthood.
[23:05]Many things that you've put off dealing with
[23:09]or have been kind of obscured by a family life come.
[23:14]And even in any case, you have to figure out, OK, well,
[23:17]what am I going to do with the rest of my life?
[23:19]Because especially since people are living longer
[23:21]and living healthier, that's a huge chunk of time.
[23:23]So how do you want to set yourself up?
[23:25]And what I've found is that a lot of people, even people
[23:28]who dread the empty nest do not really prepare for the empty
[23:32]nest.
[23:32]They don't think about it in advance.
[23:34]Some people do very wisely, but a lot of people don't.
[23:37]There's a lot of things you can do to set yourself up
[23:39]for success.
[23:40]And then my other big observation
[23:43]is that some people are fine or enjoy it.
[23:47]And I'm interested, why are they enjoying it
[23:49]and other people are not?
[23:50]How do you account for these different responses?
[23:53]And then also for the people who are experiencing uneasiness,
[23:57]sadness, whatever, they're experiencing it in kind of a vague
[24:03]general way.
[24:04]And I always think identify the problem,
[24:06]really understand what you're experiencing.
[24:08]And I'm realizing that there's a lot more clarity.
[24:12]And what I hope the book will do is really
[24:14]have give people clarity.
[24:15]Like, this is what I'm experiencing.
[24:17]This is why I'm experiencing it.
[24:19]And therefore, what would I do?
[24:21]And it's good if you have conflict with your sweetheart.
[24:25]So I was talking to somebody with the husband and the wife,
[24:29]and they were both saying they were going through a tough time.
[24:33]And so the husband said to me, I am just so jealous of my son.
[24:37]I mean, he is off having the time of his life.
[24:40]I'm happy for him, but I see him taking all these great classes,
[24:45]playing all the sports, going to parties all the time,
[24:47]meeting all these new people.
[24:48]He's going to take us a semester abroad.
[24:50]It just sounds so funny.
[24:51]Doesn't have any responsibilities.
[24:52]He's just like doing what he wants.
[24:54]And interesting, right?
[24:57]And his wife is like, I think we should get a puppy.
[25:00]And I was like, ask, I mean, no, not for him, for sure.
[25:04]Because he's feeling I'm burdened by responsibility.
[25:07]I feel constrained by my routine.
[25:09]I envy freedom, change, adventure, newness.
[25:14]It's like, OK, that's what he's seeking.
[25:16]Now, if she's like, the house is too quiet,
[25:19]there's no energy.
[25:20]Well, a lot, maybe the puppy is right for her.
[25:22]But it's like, if you're a married couple,
[25:24]you've got to think about both of you.
[25:26]And trying to understand how somebody
[25:28]could be experiencing something a loss
[25:31]in a different way from you.
[25:32]And so then you can just be much more constructive
[25:35]in how you deal with it instead of, because a lot of times,
[25:37]it's like, don't you miss them at all?
[25:42]Anyway, there's just a lot of misunderstandings,
[25:44]because people don't understand how other people
[25:46]could be experiencing it.
[25:48]Also, it's really hilarious.
[25:50]So I say there are 12 changes.
[25:52]People might experience change and identity, change and purpose,
[25:55]change the structure of time, things like that.
[25:58]But the funniest one is change in standards.
[26:02]People's standards change.
[26:05]Like, somebody's like, OK, my husband and I, we eat.
[26:10]We eat in bed.
[26:12]And like, each watch our iPads with our headphones in.
[26:15]I was like, OK.
[26:17]A lot of people just eating cheesy crackers for dinner.
[26:20]They're like, I'm never cooking a meal again.
[26:22]But then other people are like, oh, it's no fun.
[26:25]There's no fun to cook for five.
[26:28]This one's a vegetarian.
[26:29]This one hates onions.
[26:31]Like, it was such a pain.
[26:33]And so it just makes simple things and try to get it done.
[26:35]But now it's really fun for me to make complicated,
[26:39]challenging things because it's just the two of us.
[26:43]And it's like, I don't have to make a lot.
[26:46]And we can really suit ourselves.
[26:48]And so again, it's like people are experiencing different things
[26:51]because they're coming to it with different expectations,
[26:55]different different hopes, different desires.
[26:58]So it's all just very fascinating to sort through it.
[27:01]And Larry wrote about that in her book,
[27:02]how she and her husband, Dennis Larry,
[27:04]wants the kids left, would like walk around naked
[27:06]in the house all the time.
[27:07]Like curse a bloody stream.
[27:09]Like not just because they were never allowed to do that before.
[27:11]Yes, walking around naked is something
[27:13]that many, many people talk about.
[27:15]I don't know how many people actually do it.
[27:17]Sevenies said my husband was going to cook dinner naked.
[27:20]And I'm like, just nothing like bacon that splatters.
[27:23]You know what I mean?
[27:24]Like, I don't know that I want that, you know?
[27:27]But that was to him's freedom.
[27:28]I don't know.
[27:29]All these people are like,
[27:30]I have only my kids weren't here.
[27:31]I wouldn't wear clothes.
[27:32]I know.
[27:33]I know.
[27:34]I don't know.
[27:35]Maybe I'm just like a different.
[27:37]I prefer clothes.
[27:38]No, I prefer clothes.
[27:39]I'm close positive.
[27:41]But like a lot of people, my college roommate
[27:46]was saying that the light of her life was.
[27:49]So her father lives with her and her husband.
[27:52]And so, after dinner, during dinner,
[27:55]she and her father go and watch a Brit box.
[27:57]So they love a British mystery.
[27:59]And her husband watches forts.
[28:01]Because the family dinner was so important.
[28:04]But with just the three of us, it just,
[28:06]it didn't feel as important.
[28:07]And so we're doing this instead.
[28:09]And we just really, really love it.
[28:10]And it's like, if that works for you,
[28:12]and that's like the fun thing to do, good, you know?
[28:15]What is the pub day for that book?
[28:16]Because I will be purdering.
[28:17]No, I haven't even sold it.
[28:19]I'm like, you know, I always do this thing
[28:20]where I'll write a huge amount of it before I try to say it.
[28:23]I feel like I can't describe it
[28:24]until I've written part of the whole thing.
[28:25]Can I just go to the same publisher?
[28:28]Yeah, but they always want to know what I'm going to talk about.
[28:31]And then I'm like, I don't know.
[28:33]And the only way I have ideas is as I'm writing.
[28:37]We're a publisher, just saying, yeah, OK, OK, OK, good, good,
[28:39]good, good, hold up on.
[28:40]OK, just throwing it out there.
[28:43]OK, I'll just close with this one
[28:46]since you closed the book with almost
[28:47]close the book with this one.
[28:48]But if we take the blame when we deserve it,
[28:51]people will give us responsibility.
[28:53]Yes.
[28:53]Take that for what you will, I just ran it.
[28:56]OK, that was bad, and I'll do another one.
[28:57]No, it's not that it's bad.
[28:58]I mean, OK, how about this one?
[29:00]Every strength contains its weakness.
[29:02]And weakness can bring strength.
[29:03]Yes.
[29:04]That's a little more uplifting.
[29:05]Yes.
[29:06]Great.
[29:07]Well, thank you so much for this.
[29:08]This is so fun.
[29:09]Thank you, Gretchen.
[29:10]Thanks so much for taking it.
[29:11]Thank you, everybody.
[29:12]Thank you for listening to Totally Bucked with Zibi,
[29:15]formerly Momstone, I have time to read books.
[29:18]If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[29:20]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[29:24]and spread the word.
[29:25]Thanks so much.
[29:26]Oh, and buy the books.