Lili Taylor, Turning to Birds: The Power and Beauty of Noticing
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
[0:06]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[0:08]In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best-selling, buzziest, or underrated authors
[0:14]and story creators, whose work I think is worth your time.
[0:18]As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously a podcaster, I get a comprehensive
[0:24]look at everything that's coming up, and spend my time curating the best books, so you
[0:29]don't have to.
[0:30]Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests, like I do, every single
[0:35]day.
[0:36]For more information, go to zibimedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens.
[0:44]Lily Taylor is the author of Turning to Birds, The Power and Beauty of Noticing.
[0:50]Lily has starred in such films as Ship of Fools, Ransom, Girls Town, eyeshot Andy Warhol,
[0:56]Fort Cuts, Dog Fight, Say Anything, Public Enemies, and The Conjuring.
[1:01]And of course, Mystic Pizza.
[1:03]She appeared on television, in HBO's Subway Stories, and on stage in three sisters,
[1:08]and Avenue Boys.
[1:09]Welcome, Lily.
[1:10]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibi to talk about Turning to Birds,
[1:14]The Power and Beauty, for noticing, congrats.
[1:17]So you are a birder.
[1:19]You have taken us through this time.
[1:21]I've downloaded the apps you recommended.
[1:24]I am like, I'll in it, ready to go.
[1:27]And I'm like, talking to it.
[1:28]I'm like, look up, listen, we can do this.
[1:30]I'm trying your experiments.
[1:32]Anyway, it was nice.
[1:35]How did you get into your birding life, and when did you decide to turn this into
[1:40]a book?
[1:41]Yeah.
[1:42]Well, I really feel like I had a COVID moment, but I just had it a lot earlier than
[1:47]everybody else.
[1:48]You know?
[1:49]I really do, because during COVID, I just was like, oh, I know where you're at.
[1:55]Like, people were telling me they were noticing this, were noticing that, but a lot of
[1:59]people were noticing birds.
[2:02]Because then they also remembered that I'd like birds, you know, vaguely in the back of
[2:06]their mind.
[2:07]But so I had like that quiet moment, and I, something broke through, and I realized there
[2:14]was something going on out there with those, those flying creatures, and a lot more
[2:20]than I thought.
[2:21]And then I just, I entered into that world and, and me, it's, you don't leave.
[2:26]And the rest is history.
[2:27]Yeah.
[2:28]Can I read a couple quotes that I thought were really interesting?
[2:32]Yeah.
[2:33]You said, human nature can smell a rat.
[2:35]We know when something is superficial, general, a throw away.
[2:38]Our survival depends on stories that connect us to a deeper part of ourselves and others.
[2:44]Access to that depth requires care and work.
[2:47]Talk a little bit about that, because it's so true.
[2:51]Yeah, I feel strongly about that.
[2:53]I, you know, I've read some stuff about, you know, neuro, you know, from neuroscientists,
[2:58]and, I mean, in a very, you know, I'm a layman for sure, but I've heard about when the brain
[3:04]doesn't light up, you know, and that that's not good for us, and that we're still evolving.
[3:11]And we're still learning about our emotions.
[3:12]And so as an actor, I mean, I'm doing, I'm part of that, showing what it's like to have
[3:19]a feeling.
[3:20]And so when, and what, so when an actor, when a director says, oh, well, they won't understand
[3:25]that in Kansas, you should, you should cry like, you should cry like a stereotypical
[3:31]crying, right?
[3:34]And I said, well, where you're underestimating the person in Kansas, you know, and there's
[3:40]lots of ways to cry.
[3:42]And the problem is, is we keep seeing this one way so that after years and years and years
[3:46]of just watching and taking all this in, we might think what we do is weird.
[3:51]Or so that's just a little example of it.
[3:56]People are now crying all over Kansas as a result of this, I guess.
[4:01]Here's another quote, bio-philia hypothesis asserts that humans are genetically predisposed
[4:10]to be attracted to nature.
[4:12]The most important skill I use in acting, I also use when I'm looking at birds.
[4:16]That skill is listening by which I don't mean hearing what another actor is saying, or
[4:21]the sound a bird is making.
[4:23]So talk about the art of listening and how, and what you do to become a great actress,
[4:30]but also a great, birder.
[4:32]Yeah.
[4:33]Well, yeah, a neuroscientist, and this is in the book somewhere, but said, the difference
[4:39]between hearing is a sense, and listening is the skill, and the difference between
[4:44]the two is paying attention.
[4:47]And I loved that because first I realized it was a skill, and I hadn't really thought of
[4:52]it as a skill, which means that I can work at it, right?
[4:56]And I can get better at it, and I don't have to be perfect at it, because you can't
[5:00]be.
[5:01]That's the other good news is there's no perfection, there's no pinnacle.
[5:04]So it's forever in process.
[5:08]And so as an actor, I love listening as opposed to being in the moment, which is something
[5:17]we're taught, or I want X.
[5:23]What that does is first of all, being in the moment, I don't know what that is really.
[5:26]I don't know if I've been there, I don't know if I was good when I was there, but listening,
[5:33]I know when I'm not listening, I know when I am listening.
[5:36]And if I'm not listening, I can be gentle and just say, it's okay.
[5:40]Just get back up, get back and listen again, listen again.
[5:44]And to have, because also attention comes from the root of that is, is tantra, I think,
[5:51]which is tension, which is, so it means we're, it's not easy.
[5:56]Yes.
[5:57]Right?
[5:58]Pay attention's not easy.
[5:59]So I shouldn't have a good time while I'm paying attention, right?
[6:04]And I shouldn't have to do it for a long time.
[6:06]It's okay if I do it in, in spurts.
[6:09]Interesting.
[6:10]Yeah.
[6:11]It's like back to that school, you know, school room, like you have to pay attention.
[6:14]You have to pay right exactly exactly.
[6:19]Your burning has taken you everywhere.
[6:21]And I thought it was so interesting that when you were on location, I think in Santa Fe,
[6:27]and you had a little bit of time on your hands.
[6:29]And you're like, whenever I have a little time on my hands in this new city, I go
[6:33]to find the birds.
[6:34]And first of all, I realize that's a great, a great, like, question to ask people, like,
[6:39]when you go to a new city, what is the first thing you do to make yourself feel at home?
[6:44]And I love how you answered that, right?
[6:46]Because that's not something I would go to a bookstore, for instance, like that's what
[6:49]I do whenever I go to a new place.
[6:50]Right?
[6:51]So tell me how like finding the birds and going into these canyons or down these paths
[6:56]or, you know, these crazy parking lots of places you don't really know where you are.
[7:01]Now this makes you feel at home in the world.
[7:03]That's right.
[7:04]Well, as you're even describing it, I'm remembering those experiences and remembering
[7:09]how what felt like just a, a not friendly, it's not, it wasn't friendly.
[7:17]It's that, it's that, it's that it became so much more.
[7:21]And so then when I'm driving on the highway and I'm passing something that just didn't
[7:26]have any meaning.
[7:28]And that looks sort of nothing now has meaning to me because I explored behind that
[7:35]building off the highway and I know there's life in there, you know, and I know there's
[7:40]a river running by the highway and I know there's life in that.
[7:44]And so, and so I feel there's life and I feel that I'm a part of it in its rich and,
[7:49]and it's not a, it's not a kind of lonely, lonely kind of nothing place.
[7:55]And I just love feeling a part of, maybe I feel like innately not a part of or something.
[8:02]And so all these things make me feel a part of, you talk in the book a couple of times
[8:07]about your introversion and how sometimes even just being around birds makes you have to
[8:11]like go home and regroup exactly with my friends.
[8:17]I'm like partying with my friends when I'm with birds and it's like, I'm exhausted because
[8:22]I've been paying attention and concentrating.
[8:25]And I'm just exhausted.
[8:26]I need a break.
[8:27]Some birders can keep going.
[8:28]I'm like, I'm done.
[8:29]I need a coffee.
[8:30]I'll meet you later.
[8:31]Birding plus Starbucks.
[8:34]I love that, that will be right.
[8:37]And then you wrote about a time during one of the memorials for 9-11 when, you know,
[8:41]I'm here in New York City where there's always the, the ghosts of the twin towers light
[8:46]up in the sky and how actually they are really affecting birds and how many birds
[8:52]injuries there can be because these artificial lights and how you were part of this like
[8:57]covert secret ops mission to like save the birds in the light and like back roofs
[9:04]somewhere.
[9:05]Oh my gosh.
[9:06]The way you told that.
[9:07]I feel like that should be like a scene for a movie.
[9:10]Oh my goodness.
[9:12]But it really speaks to like this intersection of, of what we do as humans and put into
[9:17]the world and then how these beautiful natural creatures have to adapt and how you
[9:22]like emerges the hero here trying to like meld the two.
[9:26]You know, it's, it's true and it's like it's not that I'm the hero but that, that birds
[9:30]and humans are, we are here together and when humans find ways to work with other humans
[9:38]to help while anything wild is such a great story.
[9:44]And this story, you know, it took them, it took them at least seven years to even talk.
[9:50]And, and, and some of them still don't quite even understand what we're doing.
[9:53]And wait, wait, what the bird weed was, your bird doesn't matter though, it's okay.
[9:59]They turn the.
[10:00]lights out, you know. And what I find so interesting about the 9-Eleven tribute is that it is
[10:05]literally shining a light on a bigger problem, which is the light pollution, affecting lots of
[10:14]lots of wild things, you know, and affecting our relationship with the sky.
[10:19]They're trying to preserve the night sky as a natural landmark or something, so that it has
[10:27]protections. And the wind with the world trade with them, the Empire is still building too.
[10:32]I just feel like the city of Manhattan is just like not the best place for birds. Maybe they
[10:37]can just like go somewhere else and like steer clear of all of our obstacles. But Central Park
[10:43]is amazing for birds. True. You know, it's such a great like think about that bond of green
[10:50]when they haven't seen for a while and then they have just like and so many land in there and
[10:54]fuel up. Oh my gosh, I love it. You mentioned a fan did Lee in the book that you come from
[11:01]a family that owned hardware stores. What was that like? I mean, hardware stores are such
[11:06]this like time, like a relic. Like I feel like they're one of the last bastions of like the real
[11:12]world the way it used to be. What is that like? What was that like for you? Well, it was wonderful.
[11:18]And it really was. It had all that stuff. Like it had like they wrote on paper bags like the
[11:24]the guys when you had two screws, test. You know, and there was a big old register. And so
[11:30]it and I knew that that all was fantastic stuff. Somehow I knew aesthetically that this was a
[11:37]beautiful store. You know, and I loved it. I love and I love fixing things. I don't know if
[11:45]that was in my nature with look, my dad was not a handyman at all. And he, you know,
[11:51]sometimes we didn't even, I was like, where is a hammer? Where is a hammer? Why don't you even
[11:57]have a hammer? But I, he wasn't a handyman because he was really a poet. He just sort of took it
[12:01]over because of his father. But I loved the hardware store. I loved being there. I got it.
[12:08]And I love them to this day. And I love fixing things. I mean, who knew you were so handy? This
[12:12]is a great, great information.
[12:14]Let's talk a little about your acting. So I saw Mystic Pizza like everyone else in the world
[12:24]when it came out when I was 12. And now here I am in 48. And we're finally talking. So that's
[12:29]lovely. I've been hanging hanging out just like waiting for this habit. You have been this rare
[12:36]as rare as many birds one might say creature that has maintained a life of working
[12:42]actorhood forever. Like, what is the secret there? And how does it feel like just navigating
[12:48]this, this rarefied world, so to speak? Well, it's nice being older with wisdom, you know, you
[12:54]are in this wisdom. And that's the one that's the one perk that I can see so far. And it's a perk
[13:03]point. I mean, it's a perk, right? And so because of this wisdom, I'm able to see that it ebbs
[13:10]and flows. And that it comes and goes and hang in there. You hang in there a day at a time,
[13:19]make things manageable. And oh boy, I mean, you know, the thing I keep thinking about now is just
[13:26]how nothing is personal. But you have to experience everything being personal in order to get to
[13:32]that it's not personal. Yes. But acting can feel so personal like, no, you didn't get that part
[13:41]because you are not as good as it can just start to feel like messed up. But you get through it. And
[13:50]you know, one thing I think helped me a lot is I really did get early on like I think it's really
[13:57]important to do things with people you love. Because at the end of the day, the experience is
[14:02]really important. And who knows if the thing's going to come out or how it's going to do and so on.
[14:07]So that was always kind of a criterion for me. And I think it might have helped a lot because
[14:13]I've always, even though the move from many movies never came out, but I had a great time.
[14:19]It's similar to the writing world, which of course now you're also a part of here with this
[14:24]but you know, there are so many books and drawers, probably less costly than movies and cabinets
[14:30]or something. But emergency wise, but you know, I'm married to a poet. So you know,
[14:35]I'll talk about poetry. Jesus. I was actually just interviewing Miranda Callie Heller
[14:43]who has a poetry collection coming out soon. And we were talking that like poetry really needs a
[14:47]rebrand, right? It's it's so perfect for this time starved lack of attention, speaking of attention
[14:54]economy. And yet there's this and there's this perfect little thing on like one page like that
[14:59]should be what people read. Like your entry drug. Poetry talk. Yeah, it got start poetry talk. Totally.
[15:04]I can't believe I don't have it. Well, maybe we can get on there. Your husband can lead the way.
[15:11]What was it like? Did you always want to write was that part of your
[15:16]you know, goal in life to write a book or where did this book come from? Well, I've always
[15:21]wrote, but I didn't think I could write like I thought I could only write screenplays or plays or
[15:29]you know, dialogue, you know, I can write dialogue, you know. And then I had been working on a one
[15:33]woman show that was about the same stuff. And then I showed to my manager after working on it for
[15:38]about five or six years. And he introduced me to a book agent. And David queuing the book
[15:44]agent said, why don't you send me an email about a bird you've observed? And so I wrote him
[15:49]me. I was and that is how I wrote emails, uh, which is such a smart way to start writing. Yes.
[15:57]You know, I knew kind of I was what I was doing, but a lot of me kind of was like, no, I'm
[16:03]writing an email. That's what I'm writing an email. If anyone thinks I'm writing a book,
[16:09]shush. Yes. Otherwise, like your brain would get into like, no, I can't do this and did it
[16:16]sadly, it's you get strangled, you know. So that was such a brilliant strategy. And so that's
[16:22]how I started. But I know I know that the one woman show came about just because I I know this desire
[16:30]to talk to the love for birds, it didn't feel right keeping it in. Right. It just said that didn't
[16:37]feel right either. It felt out of order. Hmm. Well, there's something really neat about reading
[16:44]someone else's what is someone else's passion. Right. Like that is the best way to learn about
[16:50]something, not from a textbook, but like someone like you who has found something that we all
[16:56]have in our lives. And yet all of a sudden, like valued it in such a different way so that it
[17:02]brings richness to like our interactions with birds now. Because you're the way you see them,
[17:08]which is really cool. Well, anyway, tell me more about these bins. So bins are the, you know,
[17:15]the bird or word for binoculars. So now I feel like I'm in the know on all of that. Tell me about
[17:21]the market, the two brands, the standoff between the manufacturers of the two bins, your lost bins,
[17:28]like it's also dramatic. I know, I know a bit that world of optics, you know, like that I'm going to
[17:37]the biggest week in American burning festival in a couple of days. And, you know, there's a whole
[17:43]tent and it's called the optics tent and talk about stand-in-offs man. I'm not a seller's man.
[17:49]It's the tables of, you know, it's a big, and it's a lot of money. And that's a big, you know,
[17:56]so yes, I did, I was Swarovski and now I'm over in Zeiss and nobody even knows. Nobody even
[18:04]knows. I don't think Zeiss knows I'm having them and I don't even know Swarovski knew that much
[18:09]that I think they might have known for a second and then they forgot. So nobody even knows.
[18:14]Maybe you should like do your movie, like the show should be now, like in the aftermath. Now that you
[18:22]have all these stories, like, you know, like a coming of birdhood, if you will. That's right.
[18:29]Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. You're going to do that now? It's sponsored and I get
[18:33]some sponsorship. Well, no, I love what you're saying because I've, because now I sort of could
[18:38]probably do the show. Yeah, because now I've, I've know what it is now really well. So, but
[18:45]so thanks for just nudging me because no one's nudged me yet that you just I'll be a permanent
[18:49]nudge. You'll be enough. I'll just like, you can just replay this episode and
[18:54]can feel like you could do it because even if you're not interested in birds God forbid,
[18:59]let's just say, you're interested in you. Like as human beings were interested in someone else's
[19:05]growth and discovery. And I feel like part of that is this for you. Thank you. And I think that,
[19:12]and that was why I kept really trying to be myself because as you said, it's the best way to learn
[19:17]and also it's like the only way someone's going to tap into their love. If my love is specific enough,
[19:24]yes, and honest enough, totally. And that's what I was hoping to get to because I, you know, we all,
[19:30]it's it's nice to connect into that thing that we that brings us meaning, you know,
[19:35]and even just your observations about people, about how like we should all just, if you stand
[19:41]there looking up, is there some evolutionary thing where we all lift up our heads to see what's in
[19:46]this guy like just all these little gems you have everywhere sprinkled through. It's like, yeah,
[19:52]I don't know. What are we looking at? I know, I just said, I, and I don't know why we all look
[19:58]up when someone else looks up. I mean,
[20:00]It's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm afraid something's about to like fall on me.
[20:04]Well, I guess I was wondering, when I was reading like a little house on the prairie and a
[20:09]puma or just some chat bar jumped out of the tree and I thought, well, maybe that, yeah, maybe
[20:15]those things jumped out of trees on us or snakes or something. Totally. Yeah. Okay. So it's all just
[20:20]okay. Yeah, it's just be from Little House on the prairie days and
[20:24]that we will get through it. I won't know the Bible that well, but did the snake come out of a tree?
[20:32]Gonna have to look into that. Okay. Well, now that you've, now that you're in the book world and
[20:44]obviously your husband as well, but now that you've, you know, entered this new, you know, forest,
[20:49]so to speak, doing the book of ends, promoting blah, blah, blah. How are you finding it and how,
[20:56]how does it compare to the, the acting world or not? Or just what do you think about? First of all,
[21:01]the book came out, but I didn't do any event until the following week and I was working in the night
[21:06]it came out and I'm kind of a little bit of an isolator as you can tell. I need to work on like
[21:12]friend stuff. So I didn't really talk to anybody. I'll be your friend. It's okay.
[21:20]This is an open plea for Lily to please make some friends. Sorry, go ahead.
[21:29]I realized that with movies TV and theater, the data is in pretty fast.
[21:37]The data is in either on with plays the next day after you open. And then with movies and TV,
[21:44]you get nap with books. It's much quieter. And so next time if I do a book, I'm going to make
[21:50]sure to take myself out. Then I, it comes out. And I'm going to try to talk to people through the
[21:56]week so that I, I know that it exists because I for a minute, I was like, what is the book out? I mean,
[22:01]I don't, what's going on? Now, the Q and A's are very thoughtful, much deeper, not, not surprisingly.
[22:10]I'm really liking it. I'm really liking it. Yeah. That there is that question. Like,
[22:17]there's so many books that come out like you're wondering if your book is even out yet. I mean,
[22:21]sometimes it's like, how would we know? It's like the tree falling in the forest. Yeah. Did someone put
[22:26]it on a table somewhere? Because I think like, so how many came out the week? I don't know 500. I don't
[22:32]know how many, but a lot came out. And yeah, it's, it's, and I know with all the changes, of course,
[22:39]the way publishing has changed and press. And so it's even more different, right? Because you
[22:44]might not even get reviewed or you might not even get, right? Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, I saw, I mean,
[22:51]I knew about your book, but I feel like I learned so much about books also from other authors,
[22:56]like Ada Calhoun posting about your event together. And I was like, oh, that's amazing. Like,
[23:00]love her. That's great. But I know it's, it's funny how we find out. But then next thing you know,
[23:05]I'm reading Turning to Birds. And now I know all that birds and bins. And that's just the way
[23:10]the world works. So, so thank you. Thank you for this. Thank you for this look at the way I see the
[23:18]world has now changed. And that's the best thing a book can do. Wonderful. Okay. So thank you so much.
[23:24]Thank you. Good luck making friends. And get on the one woman show.
[23:32]And thank you so much. Okay. Bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi,
[23:39]formerly mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[23:43]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much.
[23:50]Oh, and bye the books.