Christine Pride, ALL THE MEN I'VE LOVED AGAIN: A Novel
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
[0:06]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[0:08]In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best-selling, buzziest, or underrated authors
[0:14]and story creators, whose work I think is worth your time.
[0:18]As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously a podcaster, I get a comprehensive
[0:24]look at everything that's coming up, and spend my time curating the best books so you
[0:29]you don't have to.
[0:30]Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests, like I do, every single
[0:35]day.
[0:36]For more information, go to zibimedia.com and follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens.
[0:45]Christine Pride is back on the podcast this time to talk about all the men I've loved.
[0:50]Again, a novel.
[0:51]Christine Pride is a writer, editor, and long time publishing veteran.
[0:55]She has held editorial posts at many different trade imprints, including Double Day, Broadway,
[1:00]Brown, Hyperion, and Simon and Cheaster.
[1:02]As an editor, Christine has published a range of books with a special emphasis on inspirational
[1:06]stories and memoirs, including numerous New York Times best-sellers.
[1:10]As a freelance editorial consultant, she does select editing and proposal content development,
[1:15]as well as teaching and coaching, and pens a regular column, Race Matters for Cup
[1:20]of Joe.
[1:21]She lives in New York City.
[1:22]Hi, Christine.
[1:23]Thanks for coming back on my show to talk about all the men I've loved.
[1:27]Again, a novel.
[1:28]Congratulations.
[1:29]Oh, thank you so much.
[1:30]I'm so happy to be here to chat.
[1:32]Solo novel.
[1:33]I know you have been here with Joe Piazza before, and now you are on your own.
[1:38]How does it feel?
[1:39]It feels good.
[1:40]It feels so different.
[1:41]It feels like different evolutions, I guess, or different steps of becoming a writer.
[1:47]But it's different in its own ways, and we still miss Joe, and we're working in another
[1:55]book together.
[1:56]It's kind of like I have the best of both worlds.
[1:58]But it was fun to try to tackle this solo.
[2:01]It felt like a good next step.
[2:03]Amazing.
[2:04]Well, this is very fun.
[2:06]I feel like you actually were with friends with the book because there was so much friendship
[2:11]here.
[2:12]I feel like you didn't write it with a girlfriend or anything.
[2:14]I still got that, but I feel like putting it down, I feel like I've just spent a lot of
[2:18]time with friends.
[2:19]Well, that's because the group chat did help a lot with the book.
[2:24]There was a lot of dropping in the group chat as I was writing, like, guys, especially with
[2:27]the time frame, because, you know, the book just said in the early odds.
[2:31]And so a lot of it was like, wait a minute, did we have this then?
[2:34]Did we dance to this then?
[2:36]What?
[2:37]It's like an historical novel in that way.
[2:38]You have to go back to your youth.
[2:40]But also your funny commentary on everything.
[2:42]You're like, why do we even call it the odds?
[2:44]Like, what the heck?
[2:45]I'm like, why are we doing it?
[2:47]So that was also amazing.
[2:48]Why don't you talk a little bit about what the book's about?
[2:51]Sure.
[2:52]So it's about a woman named Cora, and she dates the same two men in her twenties.
[2:58]And then reunites with them and dates the same two men in her forties.
[3:02]And so in both of those time periods in her life, right?
[3:06]She obviously has different things going on.
[3:08]But she, you know, sort of really emotionally torn between these two men.
[3:12]And so how she, you know, has to make a decision to follow her heart both at 20 and 40.
[3:17]I don't know.
[3:18]I was team Lincoln.
[3:19]I have to say.
[3:20]No.
[3:21]I was thinking.
[3:22]All along.
[3:23]I was like, okay, come on.
[3:24]Come on.
[3:26]You have, uh, and Cora walks into a bar for October 2021, because all the chapters
[3:32]are core does this.
[3:33]Cora does that, which I loved, by the way.
[3:35]You say the first thing Nisha demanded to know was what's it like having sex with the
[3:40]someone after two decades.
[3:42]And then you go.
[3:43]And then you go.
[3:44]No, I don't know.
[3:45]Yeah.
[3:46]Exactly.
[3:47]Then you go into everything from, well, I'll let the reader, you know, use their imagination.
[3:52]And that's part of like the girlfriend nature of the book is like, you tell everybody
[3:56]is open as they would be to a best friend about everything.
[3:59]So I feel like I got to know Cora.
[4:01]So well, talk a little bit about how you crafted these two guys and were you not team Lincoln?
[4:06]I don't know.
[4:07]How do you feel about that?
[4:08]Yeah.
[4:09]So it's interesting.
[4:10]Because this really is based on, you know, it's ripped from the headlines of my own life
[4:14]and that I did the same to men in my twenties and forties, but I stress it's very much
[4:19]phenomenal because, you know, I really then created these characters whole cloth, right?
[4:24]Especially because I didn't want it to skew memoir at all.
[4:27]And so that really made me have to make Cora so different from me.
[4:31]So where I'm like super outgoing, Cora's a little more reserved, et cetera.
[4:35]But that meant that she would obviously not be attracted or vibing, right, with the same
[4:40]two guys that might, I might have.
[4:42]And so, you know, I really did have to dig deep to figure out, you know, sort of who Cora
[4:48]and that's at the heart of the book, right?
[4:50]Like who would be right for someone like Cora, which is what she's also trying to discover
[4:54]for herself.
[4:56]But I also wanted to make them both obviously like viable, alluring, you know, great quality
[5:03]guys and each in their own distinctive ways because it was really important.
[5:09]You know, Cora was truly torn.
[5:11]And I hope that people are like you like some people are team Lincoln, some people are
[5:15]team Aaron, but that they're both guys that you want to root for a hundred percent.
[5:20]Yes, I was, I was really just rooting for her happiness and whatever she wanted would
[5:25]be great.
[5:26]And I'm glad, you know, she made whatever choice she made for her, which we will not discuss.
[5:30]But you know, as long as she's happy, like that's what everybody wants, right?
[5:34]In addition to navigating relationships, her relationship with her father is a huge cornerstone
[5:41]of this book and you have a scene in the middle.
[5:45]I don't know if I can talk about her now, but something goes wrong with her dad.
[5:49]And that part for me was so emotional and so vivid what happened over those few days and
[5:59]her feelings before after ongoing about it, talk a little bit about about that and how
[6:05]you decided because she doesn't have her, you know, she's been raised by a single dad
[6:08]and they are super, super close.
[6:10]So the single dad thing was important to me because we don't actually see that very often,
[6:15]right?
[6:16]Where, you know, it's just really been core and her dad as like a little bubble and
[6:22]so they are so close.
[6:23]And though, you know, I had two parents, I was very close to my father and, you know,
[6:30]a lot of, I drew from a lot of that to create this relationship between core and her dad.
[6:37]And it was really important for me to do that because I really do think that who we, you
[6:41]know, end up with as heterosexual partners, you know, woman attracted to a man is so influenced
[6:47]by our early relationships and is so influenced by the relationships that we have with
[6:51]our fathers for better or worse.
[6:54]And so I felt like the reader really needed to see that and feel that and feel their connection
[6:59]and, you know, sort of their dependence on each other.
[7:03]And particularly core is dependence on, you know, her father and what happens if that's
[7:09]threatened, you know, and a core, you know, coursing through the book is this theme of what
[7:14]happens when we lose those we love, right?
[7:17]Or the threat of that, be it a, you know, a family member, a friend, a friendship and
[7:22]jeopardy or a romantic partner, you know, so how do we hold on and how do we let go?
[7:28]And core's relationship with her father was I thought a tender and heartfelt way to show
[7:33]that angle.
[7:34]So I'm glad that it's shining through for people, especially since, you know, I'm so
[7:40]close to my own father who actually died six months ago.
[7:44]Oh.
[7:45]And so it's been really bittersweet to be, you know, on this journey now.
[7:49]He's been such a huge supporter, obviously, of my career and I got to show him that the
[7:54]book is dedicated to him before he passed away last summer.
[7:58]And so that's just meant a lot to me, right, to bring this relationship alive on the
[8:04]page that, like I said, is just so much informed by my close relationship with him.
[8:08]So I'm very grateful that it's sort of memorialized forever in the pages of a book.
[8:12]Oh, I'm really sorry that that one's hard having to talk about it and like face it over
[8:18]and over and maybe you're not in the mood to talk about it.
[8:21]Yeah, it is hard.
[8:22]You know, it's getting easier, which is good.
[8:24]I went through a phase where it was like almost impossible or, you know, just sort of burst
[8:29]out in tears.
[8:30]And I think anybody's experienced loss knows, right, that you go through all these waves.
[8:35]Now I'm actually really grateful to get to the point where I can talk about it and talk
[8:39]about him in a way that doesn't immediately result in tears, but is also nice, right?
[8:44]I feel good talking about him now and feel good talking about, you know, his, you know,
[8:51]the context of the book and how, you know, it brings that up.
[8:53]So that's nice to get that back, right, to feel like I have that now.
[8:57]It's not just immediate sorrow, but still.
[9:01]Thank you.
[9:02]Well, sometimes I feel like the things that we write are the things that like we're trying
[9:05]to process and cope with our own fears and like what if, what if this were to happen
[9:11]like it's like our dress rehearsal a month for like the tragedies of life.
[9:15]It's so funny that you say that because it's, I mean, I wrote this book, I mean, it took
[9:20]me like a year and a half almost two years to write, but this was over, you know, 20,
[9:24]23 and 2024, I guess, you know, where I think you get to a certain age and you always
[9:30]think about one day, I might lose my parents, but it was not top of mind.
[9:34]My dad was perfectly healthy, you know, so it wasn't, you know, sort of writing about
[9:38]loss in that way, but it is, it's like you said, I think we all, there's a subconscious
[9:44]part of our mind that starts playing out the wood ifs and that's really at the heart of
[9:49]this book, right?
[9:50]The ultimate wood ifs for everything.
[9:51]What if this happened?
[9:52]What if I meet him?
[9:53]What if we reconnect with him, you know?
[9:55]And so it did, you know, art imitating life and life imitating art, it all gets fair.
[10:00]a blurry all the time and novels.
[10:02]Can I ask how your dad died?
[10:04]You don't have to answer.
[10:05]Yeah, I know.
[10:06]It's not.
[10:07]He was 83 years old and just his body ran out.
[10:12]There was no specific media calls of death.
[10:15]And so many of my friends were at this phase of life
[10:20]of losing parents at this point.
[10:22]And it's always like, is it the long goodbye
[10:24]where you're prepared and you have
[10:26]sort of a month to come to terms with this better?
[10:28]Or is the sudden, which one is sort of more traumatizing,
[10:32]which is a really fun party game to play,
[10:34]which is the more traumatizing way to lose people.
[10:37]But turns out, spoiler alert,
[10:39]there's no good way to lose anybody that you love.
[10:42]But I'm glad I did have some real final months
[10:46]of a lot of quality time with him
[10:49]that I consider looking back a real gift.
[10:51]Oh, well, sorry to have brought this conversation too.
[10:54]No, that's just a set of places, meaning full territory
[10:59]OK, meaning full territory.
[11:01]Because I feel the book is not just a rom-com, right?
[11:05]There is a heart to this book.
[11:07]And not that there is an in rom-com.
[11:08]So you know what I mean?
[11:08]Like, there is an underlying thing of who are we?
[11:13]Like, who is Cora?
[11:14]Like, what does she want?
[11:16]I love all the indecision at times,
[11:18]because who hasn't been there?
[11:20]I've certainly been like, I don't know.
[11:21]Like, what do you guys think?
[11:22]What do you think?
[11:23]And especially because Cora has a secret that is really
[11:27]affecting one relationship a lot in particular.
[11:30]And what do we do with the things in our past that maybe we wish
[11:35]we had handled differently?
[11:36]Is there still time?
[11:38]Will that ruin things now?
[11:39]How did you decide to put in that?
[11:42]Like, did you always know that Cora would have this thing
[11:44]in the past that she would then tell me about that?
[11:47]Yeah, I did.
[11:48]I mean, without revealing too much,
[11:49]I think we're all dealing with something, right?
[11:53]And so part of the book was exploring
[11:56]how authentic and honest we can be both with ourselves,
[12:00]right?
[12:01]But what's going on in our lives and with our friends
[12:03]and with our partners.
[12:04]And obviously in a perfect world,
[12:06]your truest partner is somebody that you can lay it all bare
[12:11]with, right?
[12:12]That you can be completely honest and vulnerable.
[12:15]But that in and of itself is a process.
[12:17]And that, you know, as you mentioned,
[12:19]a lot of this book is a coming of aid story, right?
[12:22]Cora is like learning to be a grown-up on an adult in the world.
[12:26]And so that's part of the skill building, right?
[12:28]Like how to open up to somebody else.
[12:31]And so, you know, it's really a journey for her
[12:35]to figure out how to do that.
[12:39]And to see what parts of yourself
[12:43]that different people bring out.
[12:45]That was really a fascinating thing for me.
[12:47]And that was one of the biggest, like learning experiences
[12:50]for me and my real life and dating two different people
[12:52]at two different times.
[12:54]It's like all these interesting variables, right?
[12:56]Of who we are in those times.
[12:58]And then who they are, right, at these times.
[13:02]And then how you interact in these times.
[13:04]You know, so it's just like a fascinating case
[13:07]in human interactions and in love.
[13:10]And so it gave me a chance to explore all that.
[13:13]So do you find it hard since you have your editor hat
[13:17]that you can put out at any time
[13:19]versus your author hat?
[13:21]Do you find it hard to write without immediately
[13:25]going back and correcting?
[13:26]Like how does that work in your head?
[13:27]I am sort of, I mean, I think I've trained myself
[13:32]from writing, you know, to other books with Joe
[13:35]that we really had a philosophy
[13:37]was like just get it on the page, you know,
[13:39]like pour it all out and then go back and edit.
[13:41]I mean, I have to fight my perfectionist tendencies
[13:44]that are not just about editing,
[13:45]but right, like I always want a first draft
[13:47]to be perfect, which is completely impossible.
[13:50]And yet, each time, you know,
[13:52]I'm like, this chapter used to be perfect out of the gate.
[13:55]So the expectations are here.
[13:57]But being an editor for all these years,
[14:00]I mean, I've been a book editor for 20 years.
[14:02]And so it's you feel like it's helped me
[14:04]and have a natural intuitive sense
[14:07]of how to structure a book, pacing, right, momentum,
[14:11]character development, things like that.
[14:13]But the line by line, right, is the struggle
[14:17]for everybody, you know, like putting beautiful words
[14:20]together into beautiful sentences
[14:21]and to beautiful paragraphs.
[14:23]And no matter how much editing you've done
[14:24]or writing you've done or how many books you've written,
[14:27]it's, you know, a challenge each and every time.
[14:31]And so I sort of just let the,
[14:34]just try to get the words out without worrying about them
[14:37]editing them too much in that process.
[14:40]That is good advice.
[14:41]Hard to, hard to take, but easy to say perhaps,
[14:44]but, you know, it's so hard.
[14:49]I guess.
[14:50]And also, emotional aspect of writing a book
[14:53]does not get easier, right?
[14:54]Like you think each time,
[14:56]it's like, well, I've done this before.
[14:57]So, you know, I know I theoretically can do it,
[15:01]but each time it's like a different emotional beast
[15:04]and it brings different, you know,
[15:06]parts out of you in different frustrations
[15:09]and different challenges.
[15:10]And it's frustrating to say, like, I've done this before.
[15:13]Like, you know, why isn't it easier this time?
[15:16]And so I just finally had to accept that.
[15:19]It's, it's never going to be easy.
[15:20]And once you kind of surrender to that,
[15:23]you're like, the point is not that it's easy.
[15:25]The point is that you do it.
[15:27]And so that's something that I really tried to keep in mind.
[15:31]I think it's like going back to the friendship theme
[15:33]of the book too.
[15:34]It's like, I am a certain way with some friends
[15:37]and different with other friends.
[15:38]And sometimes, as much as I like someone,
[15:40]our relationship isn't as easy.
[15:42]And sometimes, it's super easy.
[15:44]and you don't know why.
[15:46]Like, and in relationships the same way.
[15:48]I feel like I just wrote a book that I am throwing out
[15:50]because I'm like, I never wanted to write in
[15:52]and did it and like, not every book is easy.
[15:54]And maybe you have to pay attention to that.
[15:57]Like, maybe it's not the right book.
[15:58]Like, right.
[15:59]I have a teenager that.
[16:00]Or learn to let things go, right?
[16:02]I think sometimes we like, there's a balance in life,
[16:05]you know, in relationships in art and whatever,
[16:07]where you really have to make a distinction
[16:09]between what is worth holding onto and fighting for
[16:13]as hard as it can be.
[16:15]And I think we're kind of conditioned to think in that way.
[16:17]Like, marriage is hard.
[16:18]Relationships are hard.
[16:19]You know, friendships take work, work takes work,
[16:22]et cetera, et cetera.
[16:23]But there's also this flip side of what should we let go of,
[16:27]right?
[16:28]Like, what is not serving us?
[16:28]What is not worth it?
[16:30]What is, even if you love this person,
[16:32]be it a romantic partner or a friend or a book, right?
[16:35]If it's not working, then there are some, you know,
[16:39]power and meaning and agency in acknowledging that.
[16:43]and making room for something else.
[16:46]And I hope this book shows who are kind of exploring
[16:49]both of those routes.
[16:50]Yep, absolutely.
[16:52]So what you're already writing another book with Joe,
[16:54]Tim, what's on the horizon?
[16:55]Cause it's not a lot of stuff coming out.
[16:57]Yeah, all the things all the time.
[17:00]Yeah, Joe and I are writing a third book together,
[17:01]which is due to our publisher in 26 days,
[17:05]not that I'm counting at the end of this month.
[17:08]So I were deep in it and excited about that.
[17:12]And then I'm noodling on another novel.
[17:14]I have, I think a good idea.
[17:17]This is breaking news here because it's true.
[17:20]I mean, it's maybe, you know,
[17:21]a couple of weeks old at this point.
[17:22]So it is a, I, an immerre of an idea,
[17:26]but you know how when you get that little spidey sense
[17:29]and like, oh, there's something there
[17:31]and I'm more excited than terrified.
[17:33]And so I think that's a good sign.
[17:35]Very good sign.
[17:36]Oh my God.
[17:37]Well, I won't ask you any more
[17:37]cause I don't want to.
[17:39]Next time I'm here.
[17:41]Yeah, so that's hopefully me talking about that.
[17:43]Amazing.
[17:44]Oh, that's so exciting.
[17:45]When you're not editing for your job, writing for your job,
[17:49]like what, what is like your go to vice or pleasure?
[17:53]Like, do you have time for anything else
[17:55]that you're like super into?
[17:56]I do.
[17:57]I really make time actually for other stuff.
[18:00]I'm TV is a big vice of mine.
[18:03]I mean, I think just because if you're a storyteller,
[18:07]if you love stories, then you love them in all formats
[18:10]in all the ways they can materialize in the world.
[18:14]And so TV is the thing I do that helps me
[18:19]decompress the most, honestly, right?
[18:21]Like after a long day of writing or working
[18:24]or even traveling, whatever I'm doing, right?
[18:27]Finding a really good TV show to lose myself in is great.
[18:30]It's maybe the same way that other people
[18:32]then lose themselves into books,
[18:33]but because I'm doing that all day is my day job.
[18:36]Reading, though I enjoy it very much
[18:38]and do it all the time, doesn't feel like
[18:40]the same sort of mindless escape.
[18:42]So I love TV, I love working out friendship
[18:45]is such a big part of my life.
[18:47]I spend so much time with my friends
[18:49]and in my myriad group chats.
[18:51]And so that's why that bubble's up so much as a theme.
[18:55]Really in all of my books, I mean,
[18:57]Joe and I wrote a book together essentially about friendship.
[19:00]And I wanted it to be a huge part of all of them
[19:03]and I loved it again as well.
[19:04]Like it's a love story for sure,
[19:06]but it's also a love story about friendship
[19:09]and that is so important to me.
[19:10]Even in the books, Corey says something like,
[19:12]you can't go on about a relationship alone
[19:15]or you need your friends to be in a relationship.
[19:18]And I found that on my personal life that holds true.
[19:22]Amazing.
[19:23]Well, congratulations, Christine.
[19:24]So exciting.
[19:26]Fabulous cover, by the way, too.
[19:27]Love it.
[19:28]I think in red and it's just so fun
[19:31]and captures the feeling of the bag.
[19:34]And yeah, thank you for taking us on this ride.
[19:38]Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
[19:40]I'm really excited to be here.
[19:41]And I'm excited.
[19:42]There's so many great books coming out this summer.
[19:44]So I'm just like excited to be one of many.
[19:47]But it's a good summer reading list this year.
[19:51]So excited for all the people who listen to this podcast
[19:54]who obviously big readers
[19:55]and have so many good offerings.
[19:56]Yeah, all right, thank you so much.
[19:58]Thanks so much.
[19:59]All right, take it.
[20:00]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi, formerly momstone have time to read books.
[20:07]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens
[20:12]and spread the word. Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.