Jennifer Pastiloff, PROOF OF LIFE: Let Go, Let Love, and Stop Looking for Permission to Live Your Life
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[0:45]Jennifer Pasteloff is the author of Proof of Life Let Go, Let Love, and Stop Looking for
[0:49]Permission to Live Your Life.
[0:52]Jennifer Pasteloff trots around the globe as a public speaker and hosts retreats in Italy,
[0:57]as well as her one-of-a-kind workshops, which she has taught to thousands of people all over
[1:01]the world.
[1:02]The author of the popular sub-stack, also called Proof of Life.
[1:06]She teaches writing and creativity classes, called Allow, and workshops called Shame Loss,
[1:10]when she isn't painting and selling her art.
[1:12]She has been featured on Good Morning America and Katie Couric, and in New York magazine
[1:16]People Shave Health Magazine and other media outlets for her authenticity and unique voice.
[1:21]She is deaf, read slips, and mishears almost everything, but what she hears is usually
[1:25]funnier, at least she thinks so.
[1:27]The author of the National Bestseller on Being Human, Pasteloff lives in Southern California
[1:31]with her son, Charlie Mel.
[1:33]Welcome, Jen.
[1:34]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Vugs to discuss Proof of Life.
[1:39]Let Go, Let Love, and Stop Looking for Permission to Live Your Life.
[1:43]Congratulations.
[1:44]Thank you.
[1:45]It feels so last night when you said you just finished it, I got this wave of emotion,
[1:51]and it's been a long time this book, and so much has happened in my life.
[1:57]And you're the first person besides my editor-in-all that's read it.
[2:02]And I got this, like, was I holding my breath?
[2:05]I don't know, but a wave of emotion.
[2:08]I was like, no, thank you.
[2:11]Thank you.
[2:12]Thank you.
[2:13]I really, really enjoyed it for so many reasons, and it literally has led me to look at
[2:19]the world a little bit differently, which is what the best books do, right?
[2:24]Yeah, but you just gave me like a high, I mean, I'm not drinking anymore, so I'm like,
[2:30]yeah, I'm taking it.
[2:33]Because that's the point, the whole idea of like, you know, my friend Emily McDowell gave
[2:37]me the best book.
[2:38]She said, it's weird in the best possible way.
[2:41]It's self-help, but memoir.
[2:43]And then there's a line about shooting yourselves, and that's how our brains work.
[2:47]And that's what I love about it, is it's so like, like that.
[2:52]you look at the world a little different, because it's not just one way, you know.
[2:57]So you came at writing this book as someone who already was a successful author, teaching
[3:03]workshops, and developing this sort of guru status for helping in the hour.
[3:09]I didn't follow calls me the anti-grew and I prefer that.
[3:12]So, okay, the anti-grew, I love random people, you help people get the best out of life
[3:18]by listening to themselves and not following rules and doing what there's their true calling.
[3:24]I'm doing a lot of bad synops, synops, that's the word, oh my gosh, neither of us have
[3:32]slept, by the way, but we're still going to do a great job on the podcast.
[3:34]Okay, well, two things, one, I'm deaf, you know I read lips, and you talk super fast,
[3:40]so I'm sorry, like, slow down, the other thing is, I think you said about doing love,
[3:44]and I will say, you do love all the time, and I mean I clap that again, all your stuff
[3:49]I read it, and if your generosity is moving and I'm not just talking about money, sure
[3:56]not to, but it really is, and that's doing love, it doesn't have to be financial, doing
[4:02]love, you know.
[4:03]That's another thing, you could look at a different way, look at it anyway, and so I think
[4:08]that's what you said before you, you went into speedy speeder tin, I will slow down.
[4:17]I also appreciated you writing about being deaf, developing that, can you actually go back,
[4:24]and when did that happen?
[4:25]You said something started to happen when you were eight years old?
[4:28]Yeah, it's really interesting because it's been progressive, and the whole idea of shame
[4:34]loss, which is I will not hide in shame, I was ashamed for so long, and I've had people
[4:40]ask, well why, you know, you're hearing, but shame is not logical, shame is not logical,
[4:47]and I really, due to my childhood trauma, I had a belief about myself that I was bad,
[4:54]and I was broken, and I was ashamed, so I hit it, and so it really wasn't until my early
[5:01]20s when I was an acting class, and I was like, oh my god, I can't hear, you know, and
[5:07]that's why I'm always in the front row, so, you know, it got progressively worse, I will say
[5:12]I've always had tinnitus, so I don't just have hearing loss, I have tinnitus, and both
[5:18]of them, and honestly the tinnitus is probably worse for every reason you'd think, because
[5:24]it's maddening, and when I wear my hearing aids, I can't not, if I don't wear them, I don't
[5:32]hear anything fully done, but when I wear my hearing aids, it minimizes the tinnitus because it
[5:36]makes everything else louder, so even if I'm by myself painting or whatever, I wear them because
[5:41]it's maddening, so I don't know when I started, but when I look back, I'm like, oh, right, right,
[5:48]I was always like being told, she doesn't pay attention, you know, the classic things you hear,
[5:54]but progressively it got worse as I got older, and then like anything in life, you know, yes,
[6:00]I've always had it, and I was in denial, and it wasn't this bad, but I navigated it, and I learned
[6:07]to live with it, and I mean, I think you know this, it's scary and amazing that we learn to live
[6:12]with anything, and so I just got by, when I finally got hearing aids, it was really emotional,
[6:19]because I thought, oh my god, how much have I been missing, you know, but yeah, I don't know
[6:25]exactly when I started, and my sister wears hearing aids, and my dad's sister is deaf as opposed,
[6:31]and my dad died when he was 38, so who knows, but there's definitely some kind of, you know,
[6:38]genetic component, but it's getting worse, and right now, in fact, my hearing aids broke,
[6:44]so I'm wearing my backup pair, which are just one step up from nothing, and it's been,
[6:50]I think that's been adding to this moment, I was telling you, I've been having a lot of anxiety and
[6:55]depression, because it is so hard, and my son is normally so compassionate, he's getting so
[7:03]frustrated, because he's not, it's like another level, it's, I might as well not be wearing them,
[7:08]and he does this thing where he goes, he's eight, like he's taking a breath, and I'm like,
[7:15]maybe I know what's irritating, you know who it's more irritating for me, so I'll get my other
[7:20]perfect set work a lot better, but yeah, it's been a long time and just gets worse, which
[7:26]terrifies me, so I try not to think about that. So I thought I'd just bring it up, because you're
[7:32]trying to avoid it, I might as well just make you have to go down that road right away.
[7:38]But see that same loss, and first of all, right now, you know, I have the computer turned up,
[7:43]I'm in silence, it's easier, and usually technology is easier, because it streams into my hearing aids.
[7:49]I'm a computer, they haven't figured just the phone. No, talking about it actually is good,
[7:56]if I sat and talked about it in a different kind of way, like all about the fear and what's
[8:01]gonna happen, and oh my god, what's gonna happen when I can't hear anymore, and I won't hear me,
[8:06]you know, that's different. This is not that at all, and that's what I really want to get away
[8:12]from actually is avoiding, or denying, talking about things, because then that won't make them
[8:17]so, and a big part of my book is about that, you know, blah, blah, blah, I don't see it, therefore
[8:22]it doesn't exist. Jen, can I read one of the poems that you have in the book? Yeah, yeah, okay,
[8:30]I mean, there were a lot of favorites, but this one was so good, changing lanes.
[8:36]Okay, so good. We'll believe anything. How else could we carry on unless we believed that we had
[8:41]no choice? How could we keep driving into a job that sucked our soul unless we believed we didn't
[8:47]have one? So all that sucking was in vain. How could we have accepted, at least we're not as
[8:51]miserable as most, as a reason to stay, unless we believed that it was our bar, and no matter how low
[8:57]it was set, we didn't get to raise it. We tolerate long lines at places we do not want to be
[9:03]with a person we no longer love by remembering it's our bar to bear, and by bearing it,
[9:09]how could we have a third date with someone who asks no questions about us, except by believing
[9:14]next time they'll ask what I like and what I want. When years pass with no change at all,
[9:20]we have to say it used to be different, or we'd never forgive ourselves for what we gave up to
[9:25]feel less lonely. What we gave up was everything, and there we were, still, so lonely it hurt.
[9:31]We eat our own hunger, swallow any urge to swerve, all to remain in the right lane, until we notice
[9:38]it's no longer true that we'll believe anything. We are not in the right lane after all.
[9:43]All this time we thought we were when there were never any lanes to begin with.
[9:48]And we meet cry hearing you even. It's really, it's quite a thing, you know, hearing someone else
[9:53]we do work, and that one in particular. It's so good. The whole book, I'm sorry to make you cry.
[10:00]I don't know.
[10:01]It's all zippy, okay, zippy,
[10:04]you know, my five dollars.
[10:05]Sorry, dude.
[10:06]I have a thing called the sorry bank,
[10:08]which is you pay even money or anyone five dollars
[10:12]every time you say you're sorry.
[10:14]And then you can like donate it or whatever.
[10:17]But the idea, A, it's not a sense of humor about it,
[10:19]but to either break your sorry habit,
[10:21]you're unnecessary, sorry, or break your bank.
[10:24]And look, art of apologies, great,
[10:26]but we, I think we apologize way too much.
[10:28]No, you don't understand crying is a really recent
[10:31]only three years ago from when I was eight
[10:34]and feeling for me,
[10:35]I was like emotionally constipated.
[10:37]So now sometimes I get nervous,
[10:39]because I'm still so not used to it.
[10:40]It's such a joy for me to be able to feel.
[10:42]And then, but having someone else read your words.
[10:46]And it's like, I need, right now,
[10:48]I'm, you know, this whole pre-pub part is so,
[10:52]is bringing up so much,
[10:54]demons and unworthiness and loo.
[10:57]And, and hearing that, it was like,
[10:59]all right, there aren't any lanes that we begin with,
[11:02]because it's a feeling like,
[11:03]oh, I've got to get in the right lane in the day.
[11:05]And I have to, you know,
[11:07]there's all this pressure right now and I'm human.
[11:10]So I'm falling back in the same BS.
[11:12]And then hearing you read that just like,
[11:14]hey, it's just, it's so, it's just a thing
[11:17]to hear someone else read your words.
[11:18]It really is.
[11:20]Thank you.
[11:21]Welcome.
[11:22]Well, that's what I meant by rethinking, right?
[11:25]If there are no lanes,
[11:27]and there's no measure of success or direction,
[11:31]and it's just the world is your oyster.
[11:34]The ITG, the imaginary time gone.
[11:37]Yes, I thought of that a lot.
[11:38]All of your acronyms.
[11:40]You have a whole dictionary of your inspiring concept.
[11:43]I thought that was so cute.
[11:44]I was so impressed by myself for the glossary
[11:47]and brag, I'm going to brag,
[11:50]because if you get an animal quote,
[11:52]you have fucking brag, but you put it on the cover.
[11:54]But Anne said something about my humor.
[11:58]And I literally, I was like,
[12:00]this was a gift from the heavens,
[12:02]because it is self-help, but I have a sense of humor.
[12:05]And that is a nod to the reader that it's not so precious
[12:10]and the glossary.
[12:11]And so it just gives it a lightness,
[12:15]which I think we're desperately need.
[12:17]Well, the lightness also comes because you tell us
[12:21]with all the joy and sorrow.
[12:24]And as if we're just chatting over coffee or something
[12:29]about all of the hard things in life
[12:32]and all of the new happy things.
[12:34]You tell us about leaving your husband falling in love,
[12:39]quote unquote, too quickly, right?
[12:41]Especially for some friends of yours.
[12:43]You talk about how it affects your son,
[12:46]but how it affects your soul.
[12:48]And it's just really amazing.
[12:51]Your whole theory is it's never too late.
[12:54]Like take charge of your life.
[12:56]I know.
[12:57]I know.
[12:58]Especially as women.
[12:59]And I just, I don't know if this video
[13:01]is going to be shared or just you and I,
[13:03]but I just want to show you the pain all over me.
[13:05]Because you know, I started painting.
[13:07]Oh, and that's one of the reasons I was up late.
[13:09]You know, oops, I forgot to say,
[13:11]but there's this pain all over me right now.
[13:13]Um, yeah, you know, it's never too late.
[13:16]And the whole idea of daily practices.
[13:19]And then I was like, why am I lying?
[13:20]Daily, daily practices is like,
[13:24]I'll think I got something.
[13:26]I'm like, yeah, it's never too late.
[13:29]And then I wake up the next day.
[13:30]And I'm like, it's too late.
[13:32]You know, it's not a one and done being a human being.
[13:35]Sometimes, you know, certain things are every day
[13:38]we need to remind ourselves,
[13:40]how do I stay in alignment with what I know is true?
[13:43]How do I, you know, remember that I do get to be happy?
[13:47]And so it's like every day.
[13:49]And so yet and still, I still catch myself
[13:52]with those same imaginary time gods lies in my head.
[13:58]And, uh, whatever works to help us remember
[14:01]because they are made up, they are made up.
[14:04]You know, I just hardly have 41.
[14:07]And so he's about to be nine.
[14:08]And I swear to some of my friends are like,
[14:09]I'm about to be a grandma.
[14:12]I'm basically a toddler.
[14:15]You know, and it's just, it is what it is.
[14:18]It's like, it's our life.
[14:19]And look, if we really all started believing in this,
[14:24]I think like every, so many billion dollar industries
[14:28]would collapse because they are built upon us feeling,
[14:33]like we're behind or we're old or we're ugly
[14:36]or we're, you know, we need something to make us better.
[14:40]But it's true, we make up our own life.
[14:44]I, it's one thing to know it,
[14:47]but somehow the way that you show it to us
[14:50]and you have like little exercises
[14:52]and you always share stories about yourself
[14:55]that clarify every point and even your Instagram.
[14:59]I mean, I had finished reading the book
[15:01]and my son was snuggled up next to me.
[15:03]And I kept thinking like, I have to get up,
[15:05]I have to do all these things, like da da da da.
[15:07]And then I looked at your Instagram
[15:09]and you posted a picture, a video of you and your son,
[15:12]literally in the exact position,
[15:13]my son and I were in as I was scrolling.
[15:16]And you were like, this is everything.
[15:19]And I like it almost cried.
[15:20]I finished today, Zeb, can I, I mean, I'm an nickname.
[15:24]Okay, because nickname for me is an endearing.
[15:27]It's like my, one of my love languages.
[15:29]And I realized sometimes people are like, oh, hell no,
[15:33]it's Steven, they're not Steven.
[15:35]So I find that, that kind of synchronicity,
[15:38]we have to pay such close attention, it's everywhere.
[15:41]But stuff like you're talking about,
[15:42]like having that moment of like, oh, I should get up
[15:45]and then opening and seeing that in me.
[15:47]That's a sign right there.
[15:48]Like if you don't get full body chills,
[15:50]you know, pay attention to that.
[15:52]I do, I'm always like, oh, synchronicity, it's magic, right?
[15:56]Yep.
[15:57]But the reason I was laying there with Charlie,
[16:01]and I was actually messaging with,
[16:02]I've become a friend with Josh Brolin who,
[16:06]by the way, yes, he's a movie star,
[16:07]but his book, his memoir, I don't know,
[16:10]if you've ever had him on, I don't think so.
[16:13]I know you haven't actually,
[16:14]because I know the politics he did,
[16:15]but his book is so beautiful and literary and weird,
[16:21]weird and structured, it's not a celebrity memoir.
[16:24]Anyway, so we've become friends and we were messaging
[16:26]and he's in Italy working on a movie
[16:29]and he was talking about one of the reasons
[16:30]I love going there so much too,
[16:32]is like, no one talks about what you do.
[16:35]You're just a human being, you know?
[16:38]And I was telling him about, you know,
[16:41]the stress of this period, which he remembers
[16:43]because even being a celebrity,
[16:45]they're still that, and we were talking
[16:47]about like what really matters.
[16:49]And I was like, yeah, as I'm texting him,
[16:52]my son was laying next to me.
[16:54]And in his sleep in Charlie and his sleep
[16:57]came over and put his head on my chest.
[17:00]And I was like, and I made that video, honestly,
[17:03]to make those videos because I look back
[17:05]on them all the time, even a couple months later.
[17:07]And I am like, thank you, thank you, thank you.
[17:12]Because look, my dad died when I was eight.
[17:14]I got nothing, I got nothing.
[17:17]And if there's some little capsule, something,
[17:20]then I know I can't really hold on to that moment per se,
[17:23]but some sort of tangible thing is everything.
[17:28]Oh, it's the reminder that we need in our busy lives
[17:32]that this is what makes meaning.
[17:35]I'm sorry, that's what, that's what,
[17:37]I keep coming back to you during this period.
[17:39]It's like, oh, please tell us what the most important
[17:41]it's on the author.
[17:42]And I'm like, oh, I'm not being a,
[17:44]and I'm like, wait a minute, what matters?
[17:46]What matters?
[17:47]And I pause, whether it sounds like corny,
[17:51]I will pause, I'll take a breath, and I will take stock.
[17:55]And then I'll go, am I living in alignment
[17:57]with what I say?
[17:59]That's the, that for me is everything.
[18:01]Am I living in alignment with who I say I am,
[18:04]who I say I am, with what I say matters?
[18:07]And if not, check in and now what?
[18:12]So true.
[18:14]And I think it's so easy to stay on your path.
[18:18]That is the de facto, to rationalize everything away
[18:22]and say, well, it's fine.
[18:24]Like this is fine, everything's not supposed to be perfect.
[18:27]And yet, if we don't make the changes we need to make,
[18:30]I mean, I'm speaking in sort of hyperbole,
[18:32]but I feel like all your specific examples lead to this.
[18:37]Absolutely.
[18:38]And everybody has different ways of being like,
[18:40]I don't, you know, I've known you for a long time,
[18:43]but we've never met met,
[18:44]but like if I would guess and we do this all the time
[18:46]without realizing we make up stories,
[18:48]if I would guess I'd be like, you're pretty A-type,
[18:51]maybe, maybe not.
[18:52]I'm like Z, like Zebra, no joke.
[18:57]So when you're like, everything has to be,
[18:58]I was like, yeah, like I couldn't be more opposite.
[19:01]I said, I swear my vocal have typos.
[19:05]And I'm like, it's fine.
[19:08]Uh, I'm the opposite of a perfectionist,
[19:12]which is it's just the same thing,
[19:14]just a different spectrum.
[19:16]But yeah, like the whole thing with everything has to be perfect.
[19:19]I'm quite the opposite, but it's like, it's fine.
[19:22]Nothing has to be perfect.
[19:24]People be like, double checking, no, you know.
[19:27]But it's, it really is the same thing
[19:30]because for me, it's a form of sabotage.
[19:32]Just the same way that trying to be perfect is both are,
[19:37]there's somewhere in the middle.
[19:38]I think that's me in the middle of the alphabet.
[19:41]And that would be like,
[19:42]no, that would be a perfect human.
[19:44]Yes.
[19:45]Yeah, like K or L or something like that.
[19:48]Yeah.
[19:51]I feel like I haven't done a perfect job
[19:54]encapsulating the power of this book,
[19:56]because emotionally it is so resonant for me.
[19:59]And there were like.
[20:00]eight million things that I dog-eared and was like, yes, this, and yes, that.
[20:05]And I hope that people listening know that anyone will find something very motivating
[20:10]in this book, whether it's getting from Type Z to Type Y or, you know, changing something
[20:16]big or something small, but I feel like the exercises are one thing, but your own story
[20:23]and the way that you shared it and even how you did it, like throughout every chapter,
[20:29]like it wasn't just like, here's my story. Now, go enjoy myself, help book, that every
[20:33]message was from you and from your heart. Like, that is the best way to tell the story. So thank
[20:39]you. Well, I couldn't necessarily own my way. And also, like, I wouldn't have rather like poked myself
[20:44]in the eyeball with 17 pencils and never read a self-help book. So the fact that I did is like, oh,
[20:49]yeah, but I'm gonna do it my way. And there's gonna be poems and memoir-ish and footnotes. And I did it.
[20:58]And I did it my way. And, you know, and I'm with a big five publisher and they were behind me.
[21:03]And it doesn't get better than that. And it's a reminder that, no, not everyone's gonna write a book
[21:08]or get a book deal or what have you. But in our own life, we do get to do it our way. I mean,
[21:14]barring most things, like borrowing the law and all that. But we get to do it our way. So,
[21:20]yeah, the self-help part is because I do think I feel it's a collaborative journey. Like,
[21:25]how you're feeling is exactly how I wanted a reader to feel.
[21:30]Perfect. Well, mission accomplished. Jen, thank you so much for coming on, despite lack of
[21:35]sleep and everything else for us both. Thank you so much for my own wake. Sleepy like a teenager.
[21:42]And just, you know, different time zones. We're all good. And I'm really excited to recommend
[21:47]the book. And I know so many people who specifically I want to give it to right away. And that's like
[21:52]the best feeling. So, anyway, thank you. Congratulations. This is my first thing actually talking
[21:58]about it. So, what you've given me is such a gift to be a real, really thank you. And then if you
[22:06]could let me that code and the glasses, then we'll be good. Okay, sure. Yeah. I'll take your paintings
[22:13]and we can swap lives, you know. Okay. I hope to see you soon to be continued.
[22:20]Hi. Okay, bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have
[22:25]time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram
[22:31]at Zibi Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.