Emma Pei Yin, WHEN SLEEPING WOMEN WAKE: A Novel
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
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[0:45]Emma Pei is the author of When Sleeping Women Wake, a novel, Emma is a UK-born and raised
[0:50]Hong Kong Chinese writer.
[0:52]She writes for publications, including Mekong Review, Being Asian Australian, Her
[0:57]Canberra, Aniko Press, Hong Kong Review, and books and publishing Australia.
[1:01]She resides in Australia with her partner and their extremely, barky, doc-send lady.
[1:07]When Sleeping Women Wake is her first novel.
[1:09]Welcome, Emma.
[1:10]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Book to a Zibi to talk about when sleeping
[1:14]women wake congrats.
[1:16]Thank you.
[1:17]Yay!
[1:18]Okay.
[1:19]Tell us, Nurse, please, what your book is about.
[1:22]So my book is a historical fiction novel.
[1:24]It's set in Japanese occupied Hong Kong during World War II.
[1:28]So it spans three years, eight months.
[1:30]And it follows the story of three remarkable women.
[1:34]We have a mother, her daughter, and their maid.
[1:37]And when the Japanese invade, they're basically torn apart and the rest of the book is
[1:42]just kind of them trying to find their way back to one another.
[1:46]Oh my gosh.
[1:47]And you start way back in the early 1900s, and you take us all the way through.
[1:52]How did you come up with the idea for this?
[1:54]And I know you did so much research.
[1:56]So tell me a little bit about the inspiration and then how you accomplish this feat.
[2:02]Okay.
[2:03]So it was inspired by family stories.
[2:07]So growing up, I was born and raised in the UK, but I always went to visit my grandparents
[2:12]in Hong Kong for mid-autom festivals in Chinese New Year.
[2:15]And it was during those times that my grandfather spoke really fondly about, you know,
[2:22]the Japanese occupation.
[2:23]He was always filled with like anger and despair.
[2:27]But when I was younger, I didn't fully comprehend the stories that he was telling.
[2:33]You know, I would just think, okay, he just seems very angry all the time about the
[2:37]Japanese people.
[2:38]And it wasn't until I was a bit older that I started to learn the history behind it.
[2:43]And I started to learn more about, you know, Japan occupying other Asian countries.
[2:49]And that's when it hit me.
[2:50]I thought, okay, we have a story there, but I think most importantly, the fact that my
[2:56]grandmother, who was a baby at the time when the war broke out, she was always so quiet.
[3:02]And she pretty much refused to talk about anything Japanese related.
[3:07]And so I think it kind of ignited something in me.
[3:10]I wanted to know why she wasn't willing to talk about things or what her story was.
[3:16]And that's kind of how it came about.
[3:18]Yeah.
[3:19]So then what did you learn about your own grandmother's story that you were able to put
[3:23]in the book?
[3:24]How much is that?
[3:25]Well, you know, tell me the whole thing.
[3:28]So a lot of the stories that I heard from my grandfather, I've put into the book.
[3:33]So we've got the East River Column resistance.
[3:35]We've got what happened to local civilians, what happened to, you know, American, Canadian
[3:40]and British civilians in Hong Kong at the time, how they were interned in the camps.
[3:45]Unfortunately, the last 15 years I actually have had no contact with my grandmother,
[3:51]just due to family issues, which obviously happens with a lot of families, but we actually
[3:56]reunited last year.
[3:59]So I managed to reach out to her through my uncle and we spent, we just watched that all
[4:06]the time now, but I still never learned the stories of what she knows about the war.
[4:11]And so it's mainly fictionalized through the accounts of my grandfather.
[4:15]Wait, can we go back to not speaking to your grandmother?
[4:18]If you knew, wait, you can't just gloss over what kind of family issues kept you apart.
[4:25]I feel like every family has their problems, you know?
[4:29]And so when I stopped talking to my grandparents, I was only 17, 18 at the time.
[4:36]So when the family sort of had that breakup, I wasn't very much part of what was going
[4:41]on.
[4:42]And then, you know, my parents and I had just graduated from high school and then I moved
[4:47]myself to Australia away from my parents as well.
[4:51]So I think there's like a lot of things to unpack there.
[4:53]Maybe I'll write a book about it one day, but yeah, but it's really nice that I have
[4:58]managed to connect with my grandmother again and she's really happy about the book.
[5:02]So that's good.
[5:05]And then you moved by yourself at age 17 to Australia with no other family there.
[5:10]I moved when I was 19.
[5:12]So when I was 17, I finished up high school and then I worked for one year in Hong Kong
[5:17]and I was teaching English.
[5:19]And the plan was to actually move back to London to go to the New York Film Academy.
[5:24]And so I was accepted to do screenwriting there.
[5:27]But again, you know, I come from a very strict Chinese family and my parents were really
[5:32]not interested in anything creative or the art.
[5:36]And long behold, I ended up just kind of running away from home, but I still felt like
[5:42]I had to please my parents in a way and ended up studying, you know, marketing, which
[5:49]was something that my dad thought was quite useful at the time.
[5:53]And yeah, anyway, so when I turned 30, I realized I can't continuously please my parents
[5:59]friends on everything and I enrolled back into university, into creative writing.
[6:05]And that was that.
[6:07]So what is your relationship with your, I'm sorry, I'm totally praying, this is none
[6:10]of my business.
[6:11]What is your relationship with your parents now?
[6:16]You know, and I moved to Australia, we didn't talk for eight years.
[6:19]It was really on and off.
[6:20]So my dad and I spoke, we spoke through emails here and there sporadically.
[6:26]But my mom just was not interested in wanting to get to know me as an adult.
[6:30]And I think, you know, mother daughter relationship is also difficult to understand sometimes.
[6:35]But they recently visited, I'm 36 now and I feel as though our relationship is slowly
[6:43]mending in a way.
[6:45]Yeah.
[6:46]That's really hard.
[6:47]It is really difficult.
[6:49]Yeah.
[6:50]And I think that translates into the book why I felt I had to have Ming Jun Chen as
[6:57]like, I really needed the mother and daughter relationship to be loving and loyal and trusting
[7:04]of one another.
[7:05]I needed that somewhere in my life.
[7:08]And so I think I just put it into the book.
[7:11]Wow.
[7:12]And did you feel better somehow healing of some sort, a healing of some sort after 100%.
[7:18]Yeah.
[7:19]Yeah.
[7:20]Yeah.
[7:21]Yeah.
[7:22]I did.
[7:23]Like, when and if you're ready to share the actual story of what happens, that was very
[7:29]juicy and dramatic and I would read that book in a heartbeat.
[7:31]So it sounds like one of those really like soapy dramas.
[7:36]It does.
[7:37]Right?
[7:38]Oh my gosh.
[7:39]As she tosses the next historical novel and starts writing her own life, so I'm kidding.
[7:43]Okay.
[7:44]So you get, you go back to school for creative writing and then you decide to write
[7:49]this book.
[7:50]Where did you even begin?
[7:52]You knew you wanted a loving relationship or maybe that somehow came out through the history.
[7:57]This is an epic, you know, one of these like epic books that like will be on a history
[8:02]list type of thing.
[8:03]You know, this is a story of a, of a time where you learn a lot about the culture and the
[8:07]history.
[8:08]You also connect with all of the characters, like that's no easy feat.
[8:11]So tell me a little bit about structuring this, figuring out how to even accomplish this.
[8:17]Like how do you just do it?
[8:19]It's a years of research, but it all, it all comes back to the East River Column
[8:24]Resistance and the stories that my grandfather told me.
[8:27]So I knew that I wanted that in the book.
[8:31]And then I knew I wanted to kind of give voice to, you know, women and my family that I
[8:37]feel are very into creative arts, but they could never express themselves.
[8:42]So my mum is extremely creative and I have an aunt who's extremely good, you know,
[8:47]painting and illustrating and, but no one ever pursued those kind of goals in my family.
[8:53]And so I think putting, you know, women's wants the needs and then putting, you know,
[8:58]my granddad's stories, I was like, okay, we can make something out of this.
[9:01]But the research took a long time because I'm currently away from Hong Kong.
[9:06]So, and then with COVID and everything happening, it wasn't as easy as, okay, I'm just
[9:11]going to hop on a plane and go visit all the museums and all the different places.
[9:15]So I had to kind of go off memory of what I did already know and then look into the national
[9:22]archives and I think I tried looking through Google Scholar, reading all the essays.
[9:29]It was a rabbit hole, I just jumped right in and from that certain characters started
[9:35]to come alive, you know, and we have a few characters in the book that are based on real
[9:40]people as well.
[9:41]So yeah.
[9:43]Wow.
[9:44]How long did the actual writing part of it take?
[9:47]I think I started, okay, so I started this one in 2019, 2020.
[9:54]It was, yeah, and then COVID hit, right?
[9:58]And so you've got the whole lockdown.
[10:00]I'm like, great, you know, all my friends and family
[10:03]were just distraught at lockdown.
[10:05]And I was just sitting there at home
[10:07]like, this is the best thing ever.
[10:09]Like, I can, I don't have to go to work,
[10:11]I can just write.
[10:12]So yeah, that's great.
[10:14]Oh my gosh.
[10:15]So when you're going through a hard time,
[10:17]who do you turn to?
[10:19]Is it friends?
[10:21]Like, how do you get through a challenge with the book,
[10:24]integrating all this information,
[10:25]a day where maybe a chapter's not going your way
[10:29]or your upset about your family or whatever?
[10:31]How do you get through them?
[10:34]If it's family related, I always talk to my aunt.
[10:36]So my mom's younger sister,
[10:38]and I have a very good connection.
[10:40]We have a really great relationship.
[10:42]So when I do struggle with feeling lonely,
[10:46]because I don't have family here in Australia,
[10:49]and it kind of does impact you,
[10:50]especially around Christmas or, you know, your birthdays
[10:53]and Mother's Day, Father's Day,
[10:55]you do feel very alienated and quite alone.
[10:57]So I do tend to talk to my aunt a lot,
[10:59]and then there's my partner, as well, Mark,
[11:01]who, I mean, he's just incredible.
[11:04]He's like the best assistant ever as well.
[11:08]So I mean, he was like setting up like my webcam
[11:11]and everything, because I bought a new one tonight.
[11:13]And you get this ready.
[11:15]Looks great.
[11:16]It looks great.
[11:17]Tell him, check flat.
[11:18]Fantastic.
[11:19]Can I have 10?
[11:20]Yes, I have 10.
[11:22]Oh, that's great.
[11:23]And what books inspire you?
[11:24]What do you like to read in your free time?
[11:26]If you have free time?
[11:27]I've always loved historical fiction.
[11:29]I mean, I grew up watching historical Chinese dramas
[11:32]with my grandma and a lot of Hong Kong TVB dramas too.
[11:36]So I've always loved history.
[11:40]And then growing up in the UK,
[11:41]I was obsessed with the shooters and ambulin.
[11:45]I lived in Tumbra dwells,
[11:46]and I remember my dad taking me to Kiva Castle.
[11:49]And I was just like breathing in the air,
[11:52]the ambulin once breathed.
[11:53]And you know, it just feels amazing
[11:56]to be in those places.
[11:57]There's just something about history.
[11:59]It's, and the events and the things that occurred to people.
[12:03]I feel like it's always very timeless.
[12:05]You know, it's always relatable.
[12:07]Even if, you know, the clothing's different
[12:10]and the buildings all look different.
[12:11]The relationships that people have with one another,
[12:15]that's timeless.
[12:16]And it just always translates, you know,
[12:19]as the years go on.
[12:20]So yeah, I really like the aspect of the historical fiction.
[12:24]So true.
[12:25]I feel like sometimes history, class at school gets it wrong
[12:28]with like all the documents you have to answer.
[12:30]What about the people, tell me the stories?
[12:33]Yeah.
[12:34]Right.
[12:35]That makes everything real.
[12:36]Oh my gosh.
[12:38]So much easier to remember when you connect with somebody
[12:40]and all of that.
[12:41]So that's great.
[12:43]Are you working on a new project at this point?
[12:46]I am.
[12:47]I am working on my next book,
[12:48]which I think is already very difficult
[12:52]because I was able to spend many years researching
[12:55]for when sleeping were awake.
[12:57]But my next book is due to my publishers a year from now.
[13:03]And so I feel like I have to sort of cram in all this research
[13:07]and then go ahead and write the story.
[13:10]And it did change.
[13:11]I had a story where I was going to write about two sisters
[13:14]in, you know, 19th century China, rural China.
[13:18]But that's actually being scrapped.
[13:20]I came across some declassified documents
[13:24]from a particular country's government recently.
[13:27]And there's something really great in there.
[13:31]So I'm working on that.
[13:32]And hopefully I can bring that story to life.
[13:35]Oh, I know.
[13:36]Yeah.
[13:37]Really intriguing there.
[13:39]How did you come across unclassified documents?
[13:42]Nobody else has found it.
[13:44]Well, it's not that nobody else has found it.
[13:46]There's just really not much news around it.
[13:49]Okay.
[13:50]And I think when it comes to, you know,
[13:52]minority stories, it's never front page news anyway.
[13:57]So it's right there, it's online.
[14:01]Several news outlets have spoken about it.
[14:04]And it came out in 2016.
[14:07]So but I was shocked that I didn't hear anything about it
[14:10]until I went digging for, you know,
[14:12]Chinese migrant stories and yeah.
[14:16]Wow.
[14:16]Okay. Well, that sounds really good.
[14:18]And then you have a backup story about the sisters
[14:20]if you ever need it, right?
[14:21]You can take all the deleted pages, save them.
[14:25]That's a good idea.
[14:26]I can't do this.
[14:27]Yeah.
[14:29]At the land of lost stories or something.
[14:32]How is the literary scene in Australia
[14:35]where you are and what part are you in Sydney or where you?
[14:38]I'm in Canberra in the camera.
[14:40]You're in Canberra, okay.
[14:41]Yes, it's really lovely here.
[14:42]It's a nice city, it's comfortable.
[14:45]And I always say to my friends,
[14:46]if you're going to have kids and you want to raise a family
[14:50]in Australia, you can't raise the place to be.
[14:52]You know, everything's just at your fingertips
[14:55]or just, you know, 10, 15 minutes car ride away.
[14:58]But yeah.
[14:59]Awesome.
[15:00]That's great.
[15:01]We have an author who we publish in Canberra, Emma Gray.
[15:04]Yeah.
[15:05]I'm trying to think about the literary scene in Canberra.
[15:09]It's quite small.
[15:10]We definitely have, you know, the writers center here
[15:13]are Marianne as well.
[15:14]And I know a couple of local authors,
[15:16]but it's nowhere near as big as, you know,
[15:19]like Sydney or Melbourne or even globally
[15:21]when you think about, you know, the festivals
[15:24]that you see online that happen in the US and the UK,
[15:28]those are massive, right?
[15:30]So I think Australia, yeah, just thinking about it.
[15:32]I think Australia is the literary scene is extremely rich.
[15:36]I haven't very cultural, but I think when it comes
[15:39]to stories from, you know, Chinese authors
[15:42]or even women of color authors,
[15:44]we're quite far behind compared to the US.
[15:48]Yeah.
[15:49]Huh.
[15:50]Okay.
[15:51]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[15:53]I'm really bad at giving advice.
[15:55]Right.
[15:57]But I think what worked for me was I knew I always wanted
[16:01]to write and I just kept pushing it off, you know,
[16:04]telling myself, oh, now's not a good time, now's not a good time
[16:07]that I don't feel like you will ever find that good time
[16:12]or that it will really come unless you just sit down each day
[16:16]just for even half an hour and write something.
[16:20]And that's all you need.
[16:22]Yeah.
[16:23]Okay.
[16:24]It's motivating.
[16:24]I need that advice.
[16:25]Very motivated.
[16:27]Okay. Well Emma, thank you so much.
[16:29]Congratulations.
[16:30]I can't wait to read about the ins and outs of your family,
[16:33]all of your hidden secrets.
[16:34]And of course, this was wonderful.
[16:36]So thank you so much for coming on.
[16:38]Thank you so much, Sivi.
[16:39]Okay. Take care.
[16:41]Thank you, bye.
[16:42]Okay, bye.
[16:43]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sivi,
[16:46]formerly Momstone, I have time to read books.
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