Kate Hash, GRACIE HARRIS IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION: A Novel
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[0:44]Kate Hash is the author of Gracie Harris' Under Construction, a novel.
[0:48]Kate is a Chapel Hill North Carolina-based debut novelist who enjoys creating and consuming
[0:53]stories about dynamic women, unexpected relationships, and the complexity that comes with
[0:58]entering midlife.
[0:59]She has lived in Italy, run a business, and even appeared on an episode of House Hunters
[1:03]International, one of her favorite two truths and a life facts.
[1:06]During her four years abroad in the early 2010s, Kate operated a popular travel blog and
[1:11]contributed guides to the much-beloved design sponge.
[1:15]Kate is currently the assistant vice chancellor for IT at the University of North Carolina,
[1:19]and is mildly obsessed with college towns and the creative energy they produce.
[1:24]Welcome, Kate.
[1:25]Thanks for coming on Tully Vux to talk about Gracie Harris' Under Construction, a novel.
[1:30]Congrats.
[1:31]Thank you.
[1:32]So happy to be here.
[1:33]So this is so crazy.
[1:34]You came on our retreat in Palm Springs and happened to mention you're like, oh yeah, actually
[1:39]I wrote a book, and actually the book is coming out, and I was like, oh, that's so
[1:42]nice for you.
[1:43]You're like, no, it's like coming out in a big way from Dutton, and I was like, oh,
[1:48]okay.
[1:49]So I couldn't wait to read it.
[1:51]And now I read it.
[1:52]I was like, oh my gosh, I love your book, love, love, love.
[1:56]Thank you.
[1:57]And you were just like bopping along, like any other retreater in one of our events.
[2:00]Not to say there's anything wrong with the retreaters, but just like, you're a fabulous
[2:05]writer.
[2:06]Oh my gosh.
[2:07]Thank you so much.
[2:08]That means so much to me.
[2:09]Okay.
[2:10]Tell everybody what your book is about.
[2:11]Oh my goodness.
[2:12]So my novel tells the story of Gracie Harris.
[2:16]She's a 40 year old mother of two whose entire existence is kind of rocked first by the
[2:24]unexpected and tragic death of her husband, Ben.
[2:27]And then by this new version of her life that sort of quickly emerges when she writes
[2:33]a modern love essay, and it goes completely viral.
[2:38]And she finds accidental internet fame, which I think happens a lot to people these days.
[2:43]And she sort of has to navigate that fame in tandem with her very real, very visceral
[2:49]grief over this huge sudden loss that she's had.
[2:53]And readers meet Gracie a little over a year after this has all happened when she has sort
[2:58]of dealt with everything and nothing as it relates to her grief.
[3:03]And she's had real life to contend with.
[3:05]And I think a lot of parents who read this novel will relate to, you know, she's raising
[3:09]her kid.
[3:10]She's doing her real job.
[3:11]She's writing this column that she has.
[3:13]And she's just trying to keep the train on the tracks.
[3:16]And she gets this great opportunity for a summer where she can sort of put real life
[3:21]to the side and try out something new.
[3:24]And that is really what the novel's about is her figuring out who she is and who she can
[3:30]be.
[3:31]And there's a great love story mixed in all of it.
[3:34]I think that really propels her forward.
[3:36]It's this second chance that love that makes her really work through some of the things
[3:41]that she hasn't quite dealt with yet.
[3:44]And I just, I wanted to write a book that really explores the way love can break you
[3:50]and also sort of rebuild you.
[3:52]And I think that's hopefully what I've done with this book.
[3:55]Wow.
[3:56]Well, this is also so meta to be interviewing you about this because such a big part
[4:01]of the book is Gracie preparing for interviews with Josh as he asks her all these questions
[4:08]and she answers them, which PS is a really clever device in fiction, right, to get
[4:14]to hear a backstory without saying it.
[4:16]But anyway, so she's prepping the whole time with interview questions and I was like,
[4:21]wait, but now this is one of those interviews that Gracie would do it noon.
[4:25]And now I'm the interviewer and you're representing Gracie.
[4:28]I don't know.
[4:29]Very cool.
[4:30]I know.
[4:31]It's so meta.
[4:32]I was like, oh my gosh, I hope because of course the opening scene is she sort of just
[4:35]melts down, right?
[4:36]And I was like, I just have to make sure this doesn't happen at any point.
[4:40]So I don't go viral when I do it when I do it.
[4:42]When I do it, you're not going to.
[4:44]And in truth, she felt like she did a horrible job, but there was a lot of humanity in
[4:50]that moment and a lot of people relating to the meltdown that she had because of course.
[4:56]I was like, looking trying to read through the lines of the acknowledgements because I was
[5:00]like, you must have lost your husband, but it looks like you didn't, but you must
[5:06]have.
[5:07]Did you, how are you tapping into this?
[5:09]What loss have you had because you write about grief in a way that is so real that where
[5:16]is this coming from?
[5:17]Oh my goodness.
[5:18]So anyone who's read the book asks me like a flavor of that question and it's on one
[5:25]hand, it's really flattering because I haven't had a loss of this magnitude.
[5:29]What I've had is lots of like little loss.
[5:32]So like I've lost a parent, I've lost a little loss.
[5:36]I know.
[5:37]We'll compare to the whole, you lost a parent, I know.
[5:42]And I just think it's, what I wanted to do is tap into like all the things that get
[5:48]said and unsaid when you have grief, right?
[5:51]Because with grief, I always feel like there's this, this universality to it.
[5:54]Like everyone who walks the planet is going to feel some measure of grief at some point
[5:59]and maybe even a cataclysmic loss.
[6:02]And I think there's just an innate understanding we all have with grief in a certain way.
[6:08]But grief is also extremely personal and very individualized and I wanted to make sure
[6:14]in this novel I tapped into that because it's the reason why some people, you can be in
[6:18]the same house as someone who's had the same losses you and have wildly different experiences
[6:23]with grief, right?
[6:24]Because there are these universal elements, these very personal elements.
[6:28]And I wanted to tap into that, you know, I lost my, my father seven years ago and just
[6:33]seeing the way that everyone in the family experienced it very differently.
[6:38]And a lot of it was based on the relationship they had with him.
[6:41]It's just so, so interesting to me.
[6:43]And I think grief, it's something Josh says later in the book too, grief isn't just losing
[6:48]people through death.
[6:49]Like there are a lot of ways we experience grief in life.
[6:52]And so I've also seen a lot of that, like non-death related grief, like through, you
[6:58]know, friends who have been through really hard things, really hard divorces, really just
[7:03]a lot of really tough stuff that I think tends to happen in midlife.
[7:07]And so just tapping into that as well.
[7:08]Oh my gosh.
[7:09]Also by the way, I thought you were like 25 years old, so thank you for your best friends
[7:14]now.
[7:15]I'm going to just call it.
[7:16]I do.
[7:17]I'm like, wait, I could have sworn that girl was so young on the retreat, but anyway, oh
[7:21]my gosh.
[7:22]So in addition to everything Grace is going through, she is also writing a memoir.
[7:28]And you are writing a novel.
[7:30]So just add another meta level.
[7:32]And she is making time for writing.
[7:34]She's going to the coffee shop, talking chatting with Sunny, like if she's trying to get
[7:39]her words in, she's doing publicity for the book.
[7:42]So there is very much an insider, writer thing, but yet this is your debut novel.
[7:49]So how are you getting all of that in here?
[7:52]I was just sort of imagining what it would be like.
[7:55]And it's been very interesting for me now to see the part where I was like, oh yeah, I
[8:01]totally got that right.
[8:02]Oh, and this happens a little differently, or at least it is for me, right, in this experience.
[8:07]I think also because I had never been through it before, I actually think that really
[8:13]was helpful to me in imagining what it would be like for Gracey, right, because she's
[8:17]going through it all for the first time.
[8:19]It's sort of this new adventure for her, and she has her agent hand holding her through
[8:23]it all, like sort of shepherding her through the process.
[8:26]But it was also imagining, because my writing process is different than Gracey's, right.
[8:31]So trying to think through like what it would be like if I had an endless summer just
[8:36]to write or if I sort of got to reorient my mind, if I was trying to tell my own story
[8:41]as opposed to a fictional story too, because I think one thing Gracey struggles with is
[8:47]just how much of herself to share.
[8:49]She wants to be authentic and she wants to share what's really happening in her life
[8:53]in which she's been through, but you can, the reader knows early on that she's also deeply
[8:58]trying to protect herself as well.
[9:01]And she has the essays every two weeks.
[9:03]I don't know.
[9:04]I was overwhelmed.
[9:05]Like I'm writing it because I need her to feel overwhelmed, right, because I think I want
[9:10]people to relate to that overwhelm as well, because every mom I know is operating at
[9:15]like, you know, they're one additional thing from just cracking, right?
[9:19]And so I really wanted to like bring that to the table as well.
[9:23]Oh my gosh.
[9:25]Well, you have so accurately captured this life, the fears, how you have to bring in your
[9:36]own emotions and sometimes Gracey has to like make time for that, even if it's not in
[9:41]the plan, like the, the things that seep in and when and, and all of that.
[9:46]And then you also do such a lovely job of introducing us to this fictitious town of
[9:51]canopy and small town life and what that's like and encouraging others to take an interest
[9:57]in other people, which is also a really beautiful.
[10:00]thing in the book. And I know it's Josh encouraging Gracie, but it's really
[10:03]you Kate encouraging the reader to like ask a question of the woman in the coffee
[10:09]shop and teaching us all the art of small talk. Talk a little bit about that.
[10:14]Oh my goodness. So I love small towns. And I think that small towns can get
[10:21]just a bad reputation, right? Oh, nothing happens in small towns.
[10:25]And canopy is this amalgamation of probably five or six different very real
[10:31]places that exist in Western North Carolina. I didn't want to set the novel
[10:36]somewhere real. I wanted to be able to create my own little town, but those
[10:40]places are real and the people are just so friendly. I feel like I
[10:46]engage on a human level when I'm in places like that far more than I ever do
[10:51]when I'm in like a big city or even here in Chapel Hill where I'm you
[10:56]know sitting today. I think there's just a friendliness and a
[11:00]nate curiosity when you get to a smaller town. And I just wanted to capture
[11:06]that magic because I feel like when I go spend times and place time and
[11:11]places like that that I take a deep breath. I sort of get this big exhale.
[11:15]And I think a lot of people would convey that as well. But I wanted the town to
[11:19]feel just something like I wanted you to want to go there. I need to go.
[11:25]I need to go and I need to buy a house there and to take a renovation project.
[11:29]I don't need to try Josh, but you know, I need the I need the reboot of that
[11:36]experience. And she's learned so much about herself. And it's it's
[11:41]literally and emotionally rebuilding for her. It's a you know, I love your
[11:46]title now. It has a thousand meanings. But when like taking this old house and
[11:51]restoring it and making it her own and all of that, it just has so many layers.
[11:58]And the house itself, I feel like I could visualize when she's like,
[12:01]I think this wall could use wallpaper. I'm like, yes, it could. I was thinking the
[12:05]same big. Yeah, the sense that she for the first time in a long time is essentially
[12:11]making her own decisions. And I think that is that is a really unique feeling. Like,
[12:18]even as I was writing it, I was like, what would it feel like if I didn't have someone to like
[12:23]bounce my ideas off of all the time? Because I've been married for for like 15 years.
[12:28]I mean, what would it what would it be like? And just I love the house. I love the idea that
[12:34]also the said, even though it's known to her, the setting is fresh, it allows her to step
[12:40]outside of her comfort zone. Because for her, you know, of course, I've said it in Chapel Hill,
[12:45]like she lives in Chapel Hill. That has been her familiar territory, but it's also been a cocoon,
[12:51]right? She's been protected there in a way that's different. I think than how she's sort of
[12:56]protected in canopy. And there's also which you have the kids feel as well. Sometimes you don't
[13:03]want to be the one known as the person who's grieving that you don't want everyone to meet you
[13:08]with a compassionate look on a day that maybe you just want to run in and grab a muffin and you don't
[13:12]want to think about it or talk about it. You just want to live. And sometimes when you've had a
[13:15]very public loss and written or and or written about it very publicly, which Gracie has done,
[13:21]you don't have the luxury to just be an anonymous. Like talk a little bit about that. And when
[13:26]you had the loss of your dad, and I'm so sorry to have to hear that, is that something you felt like
[13:32]in your town was like, where is that? Tell me about that. Oh my gosh, I remember feeling that in
[13:37]the workplace. So like it's kind of like everyone knows the worst thing that's happened to you.
[13:43]And it's just this unspoken thing or people stumble and they'll say things and you know everyone
[13:49]has good intentions. And then before you know it, you're sort of like managing the emotions of other
[13:54]people to go, no, no, it's okay. I'm doing well and you're not, right? Because you're just you're
[13:59]falling apart on the inside. You're trying to go through life. And so I wanted to capture that
[14:05]and imagine what it would be like for Gracie, which is sort of this like next level loss,
[14:10]you know, she's lost her husband. But then I really love that you've pointed out the kids
[14:15]experience too, right? Because I think as a mom, you're imagining like what she needs to deal with
[14:23]is always going to be second to her kids. Like you can just feel that in the novel. Like she has
[14:28]prioritized what her kids need to to process and go through. And she just loves them so much, right?
[14:37]And so, you know, her grief is always second to it. But just this idea that her hometown or where
[14:47]she lives has protected her, but it's also in some way suffocated her, like you can feel it like
[14:53]she's just ready to go somewhere new. And I think as hesitant at first in canopy for too many people
[15:00]to know her too well, right? Because when she has that air of anonymity at first,
[15:05]yeah, they sort of know she knows like the grief lady, right? Because of course James has like
[15:10]helped make sure everyone knows who she is. But it's different. It's not personal. And I think
[15:15]there's a freedom in that that really helps her. There's there's something to be said for just
[15:20]getting somewhere new where you can say, Oh, I've recently lost someone, but there's no connection
[15:26]to the someone, right? And there's no connection to you. And I think that's that's given her at least
[15:31]a chance for a deep breath. So wait, Kate, take me back in your own life. Like, how did you become
[15:37]a writer? Where did this come from? Now I'm like self-conscious because some of the
[15:42]interviewers, you're like, they jumped around so much. I'm like, do I jump around in my questions?
[15:46]I don't know. Like, are these really like non sequiters? I have to be careful. But anyway,
[15:49]it's so funny. Tell me about your life and how you became an author. Oh goodness. So I've
[15:55]sort of been a writer my whole life. It's just looked a little different. So when I was younger,
[16:00]so high school college, I was really into journalism. So my my degrees in journalism and for the
[16:07]longest time, I wanted to be a journalist. And then I got to college in Washington, DC. And I
[16:12]sort of looked around and I realized that even at the time in, you know, 2002 journalism was like a
[16:17]prestige career. And I had grown up in a blue collar environment. I had seen people sort of,
[16:24]you know, work paycheck to paycheck. And I was like, oh, I need to make sure I can pay bills in my
[16:29]life. So I took my journalism degree and went into marketing and public relations, which then turned
[16:35]into IT like that jump was with digital marketing. And then just had this, I've had this really
[16:42]wonderful career in the IT space. But I've never stopped writing throughout. So for four of those
[16:48]years, my husband and I lived abroad in Italy. And I had a pretty widely read blog that I wrote
[16:55]while we were there. And that was just more like sharing our experiences. And then even my job,
[17:00]like I still communicate a lot, even though it's an IT job. So it's always been there.
[17:05]But I will say writing a novel was not like a bucket list thing for me. The idea sort of forced
[17:12]on me. Like Gracie's story just came to me. And it percolated in my brain for months before I was like,
[17:20]oh, I think, I think I should try to write something. And so that's how we got here. But I've always,
[17:25]you know, I have training and writing. So when I finally decided to try it, it wasn't like I was
[17:30]starting from zero. But I'd also never tried to write anything over a short story before.
[17:37]Well, then that all makes sense too, because of all the journalists in the book and her writing
[17:43]in the New York Times. And this, did you have to get approval from the New York Times, by the way,
[17:46]for this fictitious column? I think we did. And actually, initially, I had it as, I mean, anyone who's
[17:53]ever read modern love would have been like, oh, that's just a placeholder for modern love.
[17:57]And I remember my editor saying, is this supposed to be modern love in the New York Times? And I
[18:02]was like, yeah, and she said, I think we can use this. And so we were able to, yeah, which I
[18:08]think is so much better because I do think modern love is such a cultural touch point that it
[18:15]instantly, for anyone who regularly or even occasionally reads it, when you learn that's what
[18:21]Gracie wrote, it sort of just clicks in your mind. I think you have a better picture of the
[18:27]significance of what she's written. And I also love that Gracie is unapologetically attractive.
[18:36]Like, she has a moment where she's like, and I knew my butt looked really good. And I'm like,
[18:41]you know what? Bravo, because nobody ever, not, I shouldn't say nobody ever. It's so rare to
[18:49]find someone who feels great about their body as a protagonist of a novel. Tell me about that.
[18:55]Yeah, so part of that was, it was really important to me that it was clear to the reader
[19:01]that her marriage with Ben was very healthy. Like, she had a great marriage, right? And I think
[19:07]part of that is she sort of grown up with him, right? And I mean, so I met my husband in college,
[19:16]right? And like, your body's changed, right? Your, your appearance is changed. She's had children,
[19:22]but she has in a healthy marriage where she has felt so validated, right? And loved. And I think
[19:29]she has a confidence that comes from having a great partner. And I really wanted to capture that.
[19:36]So when she goes, when she starts dating again, right, this, she's out there and she's getting
[19:41]dates. Like, she's going, even though she hates it at first, right? You know, she's having this
[19:45]experience of, of dating and meeting people and trying to decide like, what is her type, right?
[19:51]Like, she's, her, her type is not the same as it was when she was, you know, 18 years old, right?
[19:57]And yeah, just I think I
[20:00]struggle. When I read books and there's like a lot of body hatred, right? It's just a struggle point
[20:07]for me. And I wanted Gracie is broken in a lot of ways. And I needed her to have confidence
[20:17]in this other area of her life, right? Like it just felt like if she was going to be broken,
[20:22]mind body and spirit, it was going to be a lot, right?
[20:25]Well, now I want to read her memoir. Yeah. Are you going to write that as a
[20:31]like, could you possibly, I mean, you kind of did already like by writing this novel? It's,
[20:35]you know, but I feel like now you need to like write the fictitious memoir. You know, it's um,
[20:41]there was a discussion with my editor at one point of should we include the whole prologue?
[20:48]So this idea that she writes this letter. Yep. And I have it written. So my editor said to me,
[20:54]you know, it'll be a great exercise, right? Like you'll get a lot of her internal experience,
[20:59]it'll help, it'll help with some of the edits we were working on. But I really love the idea of
[21:05]the reader imagining it. That's true. Because you, because we basically know, I mean, we basically
[21:10]have, I know, I know it just still. I know, but you want to read it. And again, it's so
[21:15]important because by the end of the book, if you want to read her memoir, then I feel like I've
[21:21]done a good job of making you understand why everyone loves her, right? Why everyone's reading
[21:28]her essays, why she's got so many pre-orders of her book, right? Because she just seems so engaging
[21:35]and wonderful. I love Gracie. I want to be friends with Gracie. I am a big fan. And I want you to
[21:42]now write another novel about her. So what are you going to? What's the plan? So I'm writing a second
[21:48]book. It's a complete standalone. So for now, and I've thought about it, I was like, you know,
[21:53]I just feel like there could be so much more to Gracie and Josh, or even a bit of before, right,
[21:59]of Gracie's life for sure. But no, I'm writing a second novel. I'm in developmental edits right now.
[22:06]I love writing books. The editing stage is so much harder for me. Yeah, it's terrible.
[22:11]It's so worse. Oh my gosh, I hate it. But I'm working my way through it. I was just telling my
[22:16]husband yesterday. I was like, I'm just in the really sticky part of it. And you get through that,
[22:21]right? Like you just you just have to power your way through it. But the second novel, I'm in love
[22:26]with this concept too. I think you're going to love the characters. Can you say anything?
[22:31]Yeah. So it is it is a story. It's a platonic love story and a romantic love story. The platonic
[22:38]love story is between it's an intergenerational love story about two women who meet each other on a
[22:43]plane. It's like the opposite of a meat cute. It's a meat terrible. And you know, this 38 year old
[22:49]woman and the 72 year old woman just get in a fight on a plane and develop this accidental friendship
[22:56]as a result. And it, the main character Andy becomes deeply wrapped up in this woman's life,
[23:03]falls in love with one of her children. But it's very complicated. It's all very complicated with
[23:09]love story. Both love stories actually, the platonic one and the romantic one. And it's, um,
[23:15]I love intergenerational stories where we're just so caught up in how we do or don't get along.
[23:22]And I also just love stories writing them and reading them of women at across roads. Like women
[23:27]who are at a really important inflection point, because I think we're our most creative
[23:33]selves when we're sort of forced to those points. So I think any book I write is going to,
[23:38]is going to be a woman at across roads for sure. Love it. Oh my gosh. Well, Gracie, thank you so much.
[23:45]Gracie, thank you so much. Kate, thank you so much too. I'm really like thanking Gracie. But I am a huge fan
[23:51]and I can't wait for this book. When is this book coming out? July 29th. Oh my gosh. Okay, so
[23:58]we have time to, well, I'll delete this part because I should have known that. But anyway,
[24:02]I'm so excited for you in the book. And I will be cheering you all summer long.
[24:08]Oh, thank you. It feels, it feels crazy that we're finally here. But two months, two months away,
[24:14]two months from tomorrow. So I just want to thank you. You know, it's, you know, in the beginning,
[24:21]you mentioned the reading retreat. And I just remember
[24:25]have just loving being in Palm Springs around people who loved books.
[24:30]Like, because there were other writers there, people who just love reading, it was,
[24:35]I had just signed my book deal. Like it was just the best feeling, right? Like it just felt so
[24:40]good. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm so glad I'm glad you were there and that our pads crossed in that way.
[24:46]And yeah, turn you on. Yeah, I think you. And I'll see you next week. I'm actually going to be
[24:51]at the, oh, yeah, oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. I look for any excuse to fly up to New York
[24:56]because I have so many girlfriends there. So I'll see you soon. Okay, great. I'll see you soon.
[25:01]Okay. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time to read
[25:07]books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
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