Carson Meyer, GROWING TOGETHER: Doula Wisdom & Holistic Practices for Pregnancy, Birth & Early Motherhood
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[0:44]Carson Meyer is the author of Growing Together, Dual Wisdom and Holistic Practices for Pregnancy
[0:50]Birth and Early Motherhood, a week by week companion.
[0:53]Carson is a doula who has helped hundreds of parents to pregnancy birth and postpartum offering
[0:57]resources, education, and support for a home or hospital birth.
[1:02]Growing Together is her first book.
[1:04]Welcome Carson.
[1:05]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibi to talk about Growing Together,
[1:09]Dual Wisdom and Holistic Practices for Pregnancy Birth and Early Motherhood, a week
[1:15]by week companion.
[1:16]Congrats.
[1:17]Thank you, Zibi.
[1:18]Thanks for having me.
[1:19]Of course, it was so nice doing the event together at the core club.
[1:23]I loved listening to you in conversation with other fabulous moms for our Mother's Day thing.
[1:28]And I was like, you have to come on with podcasts.
[1:30]Here we are.
[1:31]It was so fun.
[1:32]Oh, okay.
[1:33]Your title is pretty self explanatory.
[1:36]But why don't you talk about the genesis of the book, how it came to be, and then we'll
[1:43]talk about your own story too, which is pretty incredible.
[1:47]Yeah.
[1:49]The title is very self explanatory and there's multiple meanings, you know, of course,
[1:54]the growing together that takes place within the mother and child relationship.
[1:58]But it's really inspired by the growing together that happens within the community circles
[2:03]that I host that are called growing together.
[2:06]And it's a group of moms that has now become a community of hundreds of moms who are continuing
[2:12]to grow through every stage of motherhood and early motherhood together.
[2:16]But also, I think my favorite way that the growing together title exists for me is in
[2:23]that I consider myself, you know, as a doula and author and at times teacher to be growing
[2:29]together with the moms who I have the honor and privilege of serving.
[2:34]And I often say with every birth, I attend, I know less about birth than certain read day
[2:39]of motherhood.
[2:40]You know less about motherhood.
[2:41]And so the book is very much about yeah, like the growing that was and that I continue
[2:45]to do thanks to the women that I work with.
[2:48]Amazing.
[2:49]How did you get into this line of work?
[2:52]I know you talk about it in the book, but tell everybody your story.
[2:55]So I'm the long story that is in the book is I believe it started up my own birth or my
[2:59]mother's birth of me and became a doula at 22, which is generally a little earlier
[3:04]than I think most enter that field.
[3:06]I think a lot of women become a doula because of their birth experience, giving birth.
[3:12]and that often inspires women to take this path, but I believe that our birth, how we
[3:16]enter, leaves an unconscious imprinting in us and that there's a lot there.
[3:21]But between me being born and then me being 22 was 22 years or, you know, give or take
[3:29]of the years that were always petrified, just completely terrified of the concept of motherhood.
[3:35]And like so many women in our culture, we're taught how not to get pregnant, you know,
[3:40]not to get pregnant to before we want to.
[3:43]And then there's no curriculum later on that helps us unlearn those fears and kind of untangle
[3:49]those ideas and teach us how to approach this season with reverence and health and confidence.
[3:57]And so I saw the business of being born when I was in college and that rocked my world.
[4:03]It was the first time I'd ever seen live depiction of birth that wasn't the Hollywood
[4:08]portrayal.
[4:09]And I learned about the healthcare system and our maternal mortality rates and how we've
[4:15]just been doing it to service to women and babies in the way that we approach birth.
[4:20]Wow.
[4:21]So what do you think it was about your birth, your own birth, do you think that was imprinted
[4:28]on you?
[4:29]And should we all go back and talk to our moms about our own birth story to give more color
[4:36]to later when we have kids?
[4:39]I think so.
[4:40]I think there's a lot of value.
[4:41]One of the first things I have my clients do and the readers do is reflect on what we know
[4:48]about birth.
[4:49]How do we perceive it?
[4:50]What are the things we've been told, the stories we've been told?
[4:53]And in that and just in understanding what we think, we can really start to unpack demystify
[5:00]the experience, myth bunk, myth debunk myths around the experience and see where our
[5:09]anxiety is lies and where the collective anxiety exists and I think that's one of the most
[5:17]important steps in lessening our fears around birth.
[5:20]And so, yeah, asking your mother if you can, even asking your father or other people in
[5:25]your life who, you know, aunts, uncles, grandmothers, knowing how the stories that have
[5:30]been told around your birth impact what you believe about birth.
[5:34]And for me, that I was always told that my birth was an emergency and was really urgent
[5:39]and I think in knowing that I can infer a sense of stress that was there, a real sense
[5:47]of stress, emergency or not, that my mom was feeling that the room was feeling and we
[5:53]know when it's well studied.
[5:54]It's not woo-woo that babies are feeling that stress that they are in total communication
[6:00]with their mother's body.
[6:02]We know that there's memory that exists in the womb.
[6:05]There's sound recognition and so much imprinting that actually happens before birth.
[6:10]And so even just acknowledging that, I think it actually takes a lot of pressure off
[6:14]women to say, you know, it makes sense that you have fear around birth because you came
[6:19]into this world with a lot of fear around birth.
[6:23]And our grandmothers many of them were under twilight sleep, giving birth, which doesn't
[6:29]remove the pain.
[6:31]It just wipes the conscious memory.
[6:34]But if we recognize that memories are cellular and epigenetics is based off of those experiences
[6:42]that we're holding that in our lineage.
[6:46]And so I do think it's helpful when we're looking at why we feel the way we do about certain
[6:51]things to know where it's conception, no pun intended.
[6:56]And also another thing that was incredibly healing for me and looking at my mom's birth
[7:00]is have a big, you know, loving Jewish family, which is, you know, that emphasis of like,
[7:06]we're all here.
[7:07]We're all in it together and I had older sisters who I'm so close with and love so
[7:12]so much and we have different mothers.
[7:15]And so they were at the birth, they had friends from school at the birth, my grandmother
[7:19]came in from the birth, you know, my mom had friends and it was, it was a party.
[7:24]And some women love that, but what I've also learned in this process is that a lot of
[7:27]them in crave privacy and intimacy, I mean, birth is so messy and raw and I often say, like,
[7:32]do you feel comfortable, you know, pooping in front of your in-laws, like all the things
[7:37]that could happen in labor?
[7:39]And I do think that a big part of my mom's birth was me was not having that space.
[7:46]And for me to like be able to recognize that and kind of reclaim that later was something
[7:50]I write about with boundaries that can show up at any point in the parent head.
[7:55]And just to back up for a minute, I'm sure there are moms out there who are like, do
[8:00]I get a doula or not?
[8:03]What exactly does a doula do?
[8:05]What is the difference between a doula and a midwife?
[8:07]Can you just do a quick rundown for that?
[8:10]The doula's and midwives are different in that doula's role is not clinical.
[8:14]So we don't run labs, we don't listen to the baby, we're not overseeing, you know, aside
[8:18]from maybe giving nutritional advice and lifestyle advice and supplemental, we're not
[8:22]overseeing the health of mom and baby from a clinical standpoint.
[8:26]Midwives catch babies, they would do everything that an OB would do in a low risk pregnancy.
[8:32]So of course, they're not surgeons, they don't perform surgery, but in a home or hospital
[8:36]setting, they take the role, the same role in OB would.
[8:40]And in many other countries, women don't even see an OB unless they're high risk.
[8:45]They would just see a midwife.
[8:46]A doula exists in support of mothers regardless of where and how they're burning.
[8:51]So if my client has a midwife at home, the doula still is valuable, support or if they're
[8:57]having a plans to carry in with an OB, still valuable support.
[9:01]And we're there to provide that emotional support, the education throughout pregnancy and
[9:08]advocacy in the birth setting and hands-on support like comfort measures in labor and doula's
[9:15]have clients who have use epidurals and not, but there's still so much support to be
[9:20]had pregnancy birth and postpartum regardless of how you birth.
[9:24]So I think that everybody can benefit from a doula.
[9:27]I mean, I would like a doula now in my twin, two, 20, 18.
[9:29]Can you do my doula now?
[9:31]Can you have a postpartum?
[9:36]Oh my gosh, did you personally always know you wanted to be in a giving field of some kind?
[9:42]You know, I did.
[9:44]So I set out acting, I was what I was doing in college and then I have a skincare line called
[9:48]See in the Moon, which is a really happy wonderful act.
[9:51]Oh, thank you for the gift, by the way, you sent me such nice stuff.
[9:54]Take care of that girl.
[9:55]That product was, you know, I think indicative, um, and reflective of by just.
[10:00]fire to nurture and make people feel good.
[10:02]And I've always been really interested in health.
[10:04]And when I was at NYU, I was studying
[10:05]the Mind Body Connection through a creative expression.
[10:08]And that's where I brought in my love for acting
[10:11]and I have my like knitting needles here
[10:12]because I realized my own mental health
[10:14]and like cathartic energy was released
[10:18]and I worked through in creativity.
[10:20]And so that was really interested in that.
[10:22]And then when I learned about birth work,
[10:25]it became clear that that was always my calling,
[10:27]but I didn't know what it was.
[10:28]As a doula, how do you personally stay calm
[10:31]in the face of ratcheted effemotions, pain of someone else?
[10:38]How does that, how do you not catch that?
[10:40]How can you be, how do you stay calm?
[10:43]It's such a good question.
[10:45]And I think I mentor in trained doulas now
[10:49]and it's something we talk about a lot.
[10:51]You know, we're humans too.
[10:52]And so I don't think it's,
[10:55]I don't think that every doula needs to approach this work
[10:58]thinking that they won't ever have their own fears
[11:01]or worries and needs to address,
[11:04]but knowing how in tune pregnant women are in labor
[11:09]and how much they are turning to those around them
[11:13]in the space to look for safety,
[11:15]to look for that support and stability.
[11:18]It is so important for doulas to find something,
[11:22]be it a practice and constantly be working on grounding
[11:26]themselves.
[11:27]And so that there's been times in my life
[11:29]where I've really struggled with anxiety.
[11:31]And I think that all of those seasons
[11:34]have ultimately been amazing teachers
[11:36]in helping me support other women and do my work.
[11:40]What have you learned from your circles of postpartum moms?
[11:45]Like the circles that you have created?
[11:47]What do you learn from them?
[11:48]Well, I learned things every day from them.
[11:51]I think one of the biggest hopefully takeaways from my book
[11:55]is that there's no one way to parent, to birth, to live.
[11:59]And just having the wide range of experiences
[12:04]and perspectives and being able to share that
[12:07]in the space of love and compassion and helps myself.
[12:12]And I hopefully all the other moms too realize
[12:15]just how unique we all are and that there is no one right way.
[12:18]And that's what growing together is really about.
[12:21]And so those are some of the things I learned.
[12:22]And then I've had, because I was a doula so long
[12:25]before becoming a mother.
[12:26]I mean, some of my clients have become dear friends.
[12:28]And I'm literally calling them for advice.
[12:30]I'll never forget one of my first doula clients
[12:33]who's now about to have her fourth son.
[12:36]And I, yeah, she's, since become a dear dear friend,
[12:39]I remember breastfeeding for the first time.
[12:42]And the first 24 hours, I was like, I got this.
[12:44]And then my milk came in and you know, 24 hours of that sensation.
[12:48]And also my nipples hurt and I was in gorge.
[12:51]And I was like, this is so painful.
[12:53]Like what is going on?
[12:54]There must be something wrong.
[12:56]Remember, I've been a doula for many years.
[12:57]And it hurts her.
[13:00]And her being like, yeah, like that's normal.
[13:03]It really sucks for a little bit.
[13:05]And it'll get better.
[13:06]And you know, I wrote this in the book,
[13:07]which she's like, try singing a song and like,
[13:10]know that, you know, or the ABCs.
[13:12]Like know that when you get to a certain point,
[13:13]that pain will subside.
[13:15]But it's also gonna like help you take that deep breath,
[13:17]take your mind off of the pain.
[13:19]Don't let your baby see and not like, ooh, too often.
[13:22]Cause they're gonna pick up on that.
[13:24]And just have that cheerleader and that encouragement.
[13:27]And it was so sweet that it came from, yeah,
[13:29]I'm all in a friend who I'd been there for on the other side.
[13:32]You know, I haven't even said this out loud before,
[13:33]but I've started doing the same thing in my head,
[13:36]sort of counting, not with the letters.
[13:38]But when I'm worried something's gonna take too long
[13:40]or it's like frustrating me,
[13:42]I'm like, how long is this actually gonna take?
[13:44]And then I'm like, I'm just gonna count and test myself.
[13:47]And sometimes it literally takes three seconds,
[13:49]things that I feel like are forever.
[13:51]You know, like if something's bothering me
[13:53]or even if someone's running late
[13:55]and I'm annoyed about it,
[13:56]like if I just count,
[13:58]maybe it'll only be one minute.
[14:00]And it's not worth it.
[14:01]Things, oh, I love that.
[14:02]And I'm that way too.
[14:03]I'm so punctual.
[14:05]Time and like I really have,
[14:07]I can totally relate to that relationship with time.
[14:09]And that can be a big challenge to overcome as a mom.
[14:13]Because as you know, I mean, like it's,
[14:15]first of all, when it comes to birth
[14:17]and the milestone's all this, like time doesn't exist
[14:19]in the same way it does when we're,
[14:21]you know, in other capacities and working
[14:24]in different areas of our life.
[14:26]And I'm learning that too.
[14:28]I'm practicing that too.
[14:30]Yeah.
[14:31]I remember like I had to pump during a wedding or something.
[14:34]And I had to do it for 10 minutes.
[14:35]And I was like, wait a minute,
[14:37]you can't rush 10 minutes.
[14:38]Like no matter how anxious I am,
[14:39]10 minutes is just gonna be 10 minutes.
[14:41]In our experience of the 10 minutes
[14:43]is all we can really do.
[14:44]Exactly. Exactly.
[14:45]I have a two and a half year old.
[14:46]so I'm also working on the like not rushing her
[14:49]taking three hours to get from the door to the car.
[14:52]And like balance between like we have to get somewhere.
[14:55]And oh my gosh, a grain of sand was discovered.
[14:58]But there's so much magic.
[15:00]And like so once we can learn from them
[15:01]in their ability to like just drop into what we think
[15:05]is completely meaningless or a waste of time.
[15:08]And so I'm trying to embrace that, that stillness.
[15:10]So how did you approach the book?
[15:12]You could have done it a bazillion ways.
[15:14]Why the week by week companion tell me
[15:16]about the structure of that.
[15:18]Yeah, so I really felt like in a post Instagram world.
[15:23]Wait, is this the post Instagram world?
[15:26]What?
[15:27]What has come out since Instagram has been
[15:30]right? Is that the right way of saying it?
[15:32]Oh, I thought you meant like after Instagram
[15:34]goes away or something.
[15:35]Oh no, no, no, I mean like post.
[15:37]Oh, post invention of Instagram.
[15:38]Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
[15:39]In an Instagram world.
[15:40]Yes, okay.
[15:41]I guess it's just whatever.
[15:43]Or an after that I can remember.
[15:46]And you know, there's a less attention span,
[15:49]I think for for a lot of us.
[15:51]And I, there's some women like myself
[15:54]who are complete birth book nerds
[15:56]and they want to read every book about birth
[15:59]that's ever been written.
[16:00]That's my bookshelf.
[16:02]And so I have many of her just like,
[16:04]just tell me the one book.
[16:05]Like what is the one book?
[16:06]This is not, I'm not sending for an SAT
[16:08]and I respect that.
[16:09]I admire that they're like just wanting to be more present
[16:12]but want to gather some information.
[16:13]And so I wanted to create something
[16:15]that had a little bit of everything.
[16:17]So they weren't having to read a book on breastfeeding,
[16:19]a book on postpartum, a book on sleep,
[16:21]a book on pregnancy,
[16:22]but something that they could really get a taste for all of it.
[16:26]And then whatever they wanted to continue on,
[16:28]they could go deeper in.
[16:29]But I like the week by week structure
[16:31]because it gives the bite size information
[16:34]and it gives you time to reflect on it.
[16:36]And then another part of the book that I really love,
[16:40]I think sets it apart
[16:41]is there's weekly activities and journal prompts
[16:44]so that you can take the information that you're reading
[16:47]and then hopefully integrate it into your life
[16:50]and reflect on it before moving to the next week.
[16:52]But some people will and of course have discovered
[16:55]the book later in pregnancy
[16:57]and it's also designed to be read through
[16:59]for the gracious readers myself.
[17:03]What do you do to lay the fears
[17:07]of the pre-birth moms?
[17:10]I don't know how to say that correctly either,
[17:12]but you're getting closer to giving birth,
[17:14]you're freaking out.
[17:16]How do you reassure pregnant moms
[17:18]that it's not gonna be so bad
[17:20]when you don't actually even know that?
[17:23]Yeah, I think that there's,
[17:25]this is where the activities really come in
[17:27]as so valuable as we talked about,
[17:30]kind of going all the way back to where your fears,
[17:32]what are your fears?
[17:33]Where are they coming from?
[17:35]Identifying them and talking about them.
[17:37]We don't have to suppress or pretend
[17:39]that we don't have fears.
[17:41]And I also don't think it's reasonable
[17:43]to say you're gonna walk into this process having zero.
[17:46]Any new experience is gonna come with jitters
[17:49]and that's normal.
[17:50]It's so normal to fear the unknown
[17:53]and I do think that this experience comes with so much fear
[17:57]because we're so keenly aware of the magnitude
[18:00]of creating life.
[18:01]It's so big.
[18:03]And so I do think that like the demystifying of it,
[18:05]the knowledge is power, understanding it,
[18:08]creating community around it is huge
[18:11]and recognizing again, where is your fears?
[18:15]Where are your fears?
[18:16]Where are your partners?
[18:17]Where are everyone else's and where do those exist?
[18:19]And then what's the difference between fear and discernment?
[18:22]Because some fear arises to be of service to us
[18:26]and we don't wanna just block it out.
[18:27]We wanna be able to listen to that intuition
[18:30]and to those fears and find support for them.
[18:33]And then sometimes the fear doesn't serve us
[18:35]and to know and be able to have tools
[18:38]for letting those fall by the way set up.
[18:42]And what advice can you give to grandparents?
[18:44]Because sometimes grandparents are listening
[18:47]to the show and they've already had their babies long ago,
[18:50]but maybe they wanna coach their daughter-in-law
[18:52]or their daughter or friends or something.
[18:55]What can you do as a bystander to really help others?
[19:00]Yeah, I love that question.
[19:02]I think for grandparents and working with so many grandparents,
[19:06]too, knowing it can be a challenge to know
[19:09]where and how to bring your wisdom into it
[19:12]with that baby or stepping or feeling like you know one way.
[19:16]And so I really invite grandparents.
[19:19]I mean, the book is a great resource for them too
[19:22]to be able to, again, do this exact same activity.
[19:24]Check where are your anxieties?
[19:26]Where might you be feeling fear about how your child
[19:29]is choosing to do something or birth a certain way?
[19:32]And respecting the boundaries and the choice
[19:35]and how they might differ from yours is so valuable
[19:38]because I think it's gonna allow you to show up in a way
[19:41]of truly being in service without bringing in your own fears,
[19:45]which is one of the greatest gifts you can give somebody else.
[19:48]And then on a more practical note,
[19:51]I talk a lot about the book how we don't have
[19:53]a lot of tools in our culture or we just don't have
[19:55]like a strong culture of postpartum support.
[19:59]And me.
[20:00]look back in our history, it doesn't, it's not there.
[20:02]Like it is in a lot of the Eastern cultures.
[20:05]And, you know, to read those books to understand,
[20:08]you know, the foods and some of the traditions
[20:12]that are really valuable for healing the mother.
[20:15]And I talk a lot about mothering the mother
[20:17]and that one of the best ways anyone can show up
[20:19]for a new mom postpartum is not necessarily coming over
[20:22]to hold the baby.
[20:23]Everyone wants to hold the baby and be with baby
[20:25]and it's so sweet.
[20:26]And as I always say to everyone,
[20:27]like, as babies get older, parents are gonna want you
[20:31]to hold their baby more and more.
[20:32]But in those early days and weeks,
[20:34]and especially about breastfeedings becoming established
[20:37]and it's also new, the more you can be helping
[20:41]in capacities outside of just, you know,
[20:45]around the home, cooking, making sure the dog is walked.
[20:48]This goes such a long way.
[20:50]And it also really honors that mother baby dyad.
[20:53]That's so important.
[20:55]So true.
[20:56]I remember when time my mom just came over
[20:57]and was like straightening the room and doing the dishes.
[21:00]I was like, thank you.
[21:02]That's so nice.
[21:04]Understood.
[21:04]And I, this is completely taboo in our culture too.
[21:07]And I talk about it in the book and not right for everyone.
[21:10]But I like to share it because I think people are like,
[21:12]wow, there's different ways for a loving family
[21:16]to do this.
[21:17]We didn't invite our family or anybody
[21:19]into our home for three weeks.
[21:21]And this was easier for us because we live across the country
[21:23]from our family now.
[21:25]I think, you know, have we lived closer,
[21:26]it probably would have been sooner.
[21:28]But because we knew that opening our doors to family
[21:31]would mean having guests, right?
[21:33]We lived so far away.
[21:34]It wouldn't just be a short visit.
[21:36]We really decided to like,
[21:38]to have this time of integration that was just us
[21:42]where we could rest and get into the flow
[21:44]and get to know ourselves as new parents
[21:47]before we brought another energy.
[21:49]And fortunately, I had a family who really respected
[21:51]those boundaries and celebrated that, what we wanted.
[21:56]And I know it can be a hard conversation.
[21:58]And so I talk about that in the book.
[21:59]It's not going to be right for everyone.
[22:00]But if you know that your parents are not
[22:04]going to be the ones who are cooking and cleaning,
[22:05]but more of just like the lovey,
[22:07]doggy grandparents who we need and love,
[22:10]it's okay to ask for the help you need
[22:13]if it's not going to come automatically.
[22:14]And it's okay to have boundaries and space
[22:17]and to welcome them in when you feel ready.
[22:20]I love them.
[22:21]And what are you thinking in terms of your career
[22:25]going forward?
[22:26]You have the book here, this renowned doula.
[22:28]Like, where is it going?
[22:30]What are you excited for?
[22:31]What challenges are you up for that you haven't faced yet?
[22:35]I'm continuing my circles, which I love so much
[22:38]and continuing to grow the growing together community.
[22:41]And maybe some other books in the future as well.
[22:45]But I feel really fortunate that I can do what I love
[22:48]while being in my early motherhood season.
[22:51]And I'm also excited to return back to the birth space
[22:54]once my baby and future babies are a little bit more
[22:58]independent because it's one of those jobs
[23:01]that sometimes you're on a 40 hour shift.
[23:04]But then you don't know it.
[23:05]How do you even stay awake?
[23:07]Is it all the adrenaline?
[23:09]Coffee and adrenaline.
[23:10]And that's also why I chose to step back from attending
[23:14]birth in the season of, you know,
[23:17]you don't get a ton of sleep as a new mom to begin.
[23:20]Yeah, it'll be harder for me to stay up
[23:23]for those 40 hour stretches.
[23:25]And has anything happened so far in the book process?
[23:28]I mean, you are birthing a book too.
[23:31]Anything different that's happened in this process
[23:33]than you expected or something really wonderful.
[23:38]It's been really special to share it.
[23:41]And also, I mean, as you know,
[23:42]too, there's something so scary sometimes about like,
[23:46]vulnerable and when you're writing it,
[23:48]it's just you and the computer.
[23:49]And so I felt like it's such an honest and vulnerable
[23:52]portrayal of motherhood that I don't think I could have written
[23:55]at any other time.
[23:56]I mean, I wrote it in my postpartum season,
[23:59]but it's been so, I've been so pleasantly surprised
[24:01]by just the support of the other authors and friends
[24:06]and strangers.
[24:07]That's been so beautiful.
[24:08]I think nobody understands like an author
[24:11]what it takes to similar to mothers.
[24:13]Like, only I understand how it takes to birth
[24:16]a child and only an author understands like,
[24:18]really what it takes to birth a book.
[24:20]And so it's just been so nice to have the support
[24:22]of other new author, friends and women like you
[24:25]in this space.
[24:26]Thank you.
[24:27]Well, Carson, thank you.
[24:28]Thank you for coming on.
[24:29]Thank you for this book and for doing our event together.
[24:32]And everything else, you're such a special soul
[24:35]and such an old soul and so wise.
[24:37]And it's great.
[24:38]I just feel like calmer just being in your aura.
[24:41]He's a V. He's so nice to me.
[24:43]I have so admire your work and message and everything.
[24:46]So I'm so excited.
[24:46]Thank you.
[24:47]Thank you.
[24:48]OK.
[24:49]Thanks, Carson.
[24:51]Bye.
[24:52]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[24:55]formerly Momstone have time to read books.
[24:57]If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[24:59]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[25:03]and spread the word.
[25:04]Thanks so much.
[25:06]Oh, and bye the books.