Meg Josephson, ARE YOU MAD AT ME?: How to Stop Focusing on What Others Think and Start Living for You
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
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[0:44]Meg Josephson is the author of Are You Mad at Me?
[0:47]Had to stop focusing on what others think and start living for you.
[0:51]By the way, since we recorded this has hit the New York Times Bestseller list.
[0:55]Meg Josephson is a licensed psychotherapist.
[0:58]In her private practice, she specializes in trauma-informed care through a compassion-focused
[1:03]lens.
[1:04]She holds a master's of social work for Columbia University and is a certified meditation
[1:09]teacher through Nalanda Institute.
[1:11]Meg also shares accessible insights via her social media platforms, reaching over 500,000
[1:17]followers.
[1:18]Welcome, Meg.
[1:19]Thanks so much for coming on Totally Book to Zibi to talk about.
[1:22]Are you mad at me?
[1:23]How to stop focusing on what others think and start living for you.
[1:27]Congratulations.
[1:28]Thank you for having me.
[1:29]Excited to be here.
[1:30]Oh my gosh.
[1:31]I laughed, looking at this.
[1:33]There were so many people.
[1:34]I was like, oh my gosh, look at this book.
[1:36]Do you say this all the time?
[1:37]Do I say this all the time?
[1:38]Of course.
[1:39]We're not alone.
[1:40]Tell listeners what the book is really trying to do and do it the way you did in the
[1:46]book.
[1:47]You tell us about your experience and lead us into your revelations about funding and all
[1:53]the rest.
[1:54]Absolutely.
[1:55]It's called Are You Mad at Me?
[1:56]Because I think that question really speaks to a feeling, a feeling that a lot of us have,
[2:02]but maybe don't have the language for.
[2:04]And it's a question that's been really familiar to me in my life.
[2:08]I open the book with a scene in my first therapist office and I say to her, why do I always
[2:13]think people are mad at me?
[2:15]And in my adulthood, that was manifesting as when my boss said, can we chat?
[2:22]Oh, I'm fired.
[2:23]I'm fired.
[2:24]What's about to happen?
[2:25]Or if someone didn't respond for a while, okay, they're mad at me.
[2:29]I've done something wrong.
[2:31]Just immediate self blame, immediate, something is wrong with me.
[2:36]And in my self inquiry journey and also just through being a therapist, I really saw how
[2:44]protective that was for me growing up, that thinking, that hypervigilance.
[2:50]My home growing up was quite volatile and my dad struggled a lot with addiction.
[2:54]And I was just on edge a lot of the time.
[2:57]And so thinking is he mad at me was at least on an unconscious level was so protective.
[3:04]Being aware of people's moods, managing people's happiness, silencing what I need to prioritize
[3:10]what other people need was so helpful and useful.
[3:14]And I left and as I became an adult and I realized, oh, it was helpful, but now it's hurting
[3:22]me and now it's leading to exhaustion and overthinking social interactions and feeling like
[3:28]I don't know who I am.
[3:30]I have that scene of me and that, that bath and beyond picking out towels for my first,
[3:36]I say apartment, but like four by four closet in New York and she backs two bucks.
[3:43]And just not knowing even what my favorite color was because I just, I felt like I had never
[3:49]asked what do I like?
[3:51]What do I want?
[3:53]And that's what the phone response, which we'll talk about does.
[3:57]It disconnects us from who we are because we're so hyper-tuned to our external world as a means
[4:04]of safety.
[4:05]So I'll pause there.
[4:07]We can go into the phone response, but I don't want to throw too much.
[4:10]No, no, it's all good.
[4:11]So the phone response is another term and another way to cope with scary situations.
[4:20]We've all heard about fight or flight as two of the main, then there's freezing.
[4:25]And then as you go in depth into the book, this other phone response, F-A-W-N, I don't
[4:31]know how to see what's valid, but I'm just going to say like the dear words like that.
[4:35]And instead of positioning this as any sort of a weakness, you are showing us how incredibly
[4:42]smart a response this is and how it lingers as a self-rejective mechanism.
[4:50]So what exactly does it mean?
[4:52]Is it cozying up to a boss, is it enabling, you know, we to wish behavior?
[4:58]Like where is the line and why are women so susceptible to this particular response?
[5:03]Yeah.
[5:04]When the body is detecting some sort of threat, whether that threat is real, like there's
[5:10]a line in front of you about to chase you down, or whether that threat is perceived, like
[5:16]your boss or your friend is being a little standoffish and you're like, Oh, are we good?
[5:21]Did I do something wrong?
[5:23]That might be a perceived threat.
[5:24]You think something might be happening regardless of whether it's real or perceived or remembered.
[5:30]Usually our body has those four responses, fight, flight, freeze and fawn.
[5:34]And fawning is about appeasing the threat.
[5:38]It's trying to be liked by it, impressing it, satisfying it, wanting to make sure that
[5:44]you're good with the threat.
[5:46]So it really just says, my safety comes from pleasing you and I can't feel okay until
[5:53]I know you're okay.
[5:55]And this really is an a brilliant, unconscious survival mechanism.
[6:01]And what's really important is sometimes we need it.
[6:04]It's in our bodies for a reason, like we need a paycheck, sometimes we're in situations,
[6:09]whether you're a woman, you're a person of color, whatever identity you may hold that
[6:14]fawning is genuinely protective to survive in society and within systems.
[6:21]And when we're doing it all the time, when we're doing it, when we don't need to be,
[6:25]when we're actually safe, like with our best friend or a loving partner, that's when
[6:30]it is exhausting.
[6:32]So I talk a lot about how it stems from childhood and how it can be learned in childhood
[6:38]as a brilliant mechanism for an environment maybe that was quite volatile or tense or
[6:45]you had a caregiver who was critical or emotionally neglectful, but it's also such a socialized
[6:50]behavior.
[6:51]And that's why I think I view it as the most common, but least recognized threat response
[6:57]because it's the only threat response that we're getting validation for, oh, you're such
[7:02]a good girl.
[7:04]You're so easy.
[7:06]You know, women especially were praised for being agreeable and easy and malleable.
[7:13]And so it's quite confusing because the fawn response, we receive a sense of safety by
[7:19]knowing that the other person approves of us.
[7:23]So then it keeps it going like we continue to fawn because it works.
[7:28]And so yeah, it's it's it's very protective in those early environments.
[7:31]It's also protective in society and we don't need to be doing it all the time.
[7:36]What I found so revolutionary about your book is that it takes away the onus of this on
[7:44]the individual and puts it more on the species, right?
[7:48]Like I am not a perfectionist or eager to please, I mean, I am, but I have become that
[7:56]way because of my how I was raised or what my relationship with my family was like.
[8:01]And when I have trouble making decisions about where I want to go or what I want to do
[8:06]or should I go to this friend's party or not like when you have that moment in the book
[8:10]or you're like, oh, no, I said no right away, but then I doubted myself.
[8:14]And yeah, it goes through this whole like nicer strategy, whatever.
[8:17]Yeah, yeah.
[8:18]It's not because of who I am or any sort of deficiency, I the general eye, but more because
[8:25]of what's hardwired in us.
[8:28]And what relief that is.
[8:30]Such relief.
[8:31]Yeah, it's it's not being a personality trait, but an unconscious mechanism and that's
[8:37]where our awareness is so huge and important to to pause to notice when we're doing it,
[8:45]to step back, release some of the urgency, look inward for a second, that's automatically
[8:50]bringing it from the unconscious into the conscious mind so that we can at least notice
[8:57]it and maybe choose a different path, but it really is so, so self protective.
[9:03]So I'm obviously like a grown up right, I'm in my I mean my forties, I've had a lifetime
[9:09]of this and now reading the book and flip the switch for me and explain it for younger
[9:15]people who are just starting out, but like what can we do like for my kids or people's
[9:20]kids who you already hear this starting, right, you can feel it, but instead of having to
[9:26]go through the past, you know, 30 years that I went through like how can I listen the
[9:30]button aside from just reading your book, of course, which everyone must do, of course,
[9:34]but you know, I actually I want to touch on that element, the generational element for a second
[9:39]because I do think it's more prevalent, maybe that's a big statement.
[9:45]I'm noticing him more in younger people and I think in a tribute, at least in part to digital
[9:55]communication and I say this in the intro, there's some line of like.
[10:00]There's so many ways to connect and because of that,
[10:02]there's so many ways to feel forgotten.
[10:04]We're not just picking up the phone to connect with someone.
[10:08]We also, why did they see my Instagram story
[10:10]but not respond to my text?
[10:12]And then why did they like that person's TikTok
[10:14]but not mine and why did they,
[10:16]like there's just so many, there's DMs,
[10:18]there's FaceTime, there's I message,
[10:21]there's liking, there's reacting, reacting.
[10:24]Why did they, did they not think my joke was funny
[10:26]because I didn't say ha ha to my I message.
[10:28]Like there's just so many sources
[10:31]of external validation now.
[10:33]So I do think that especially the younger generation
[10:35]because that's all they've known, they're expecting that.
[10:38]They're anticipating the dopamine of that validation
[10:41]and when it's not received, there's this letdown
[10:45]and it's a big swing to go through in the body.
[10:50]So I definitely think that's an element
[10:52]just wanna acknowledge that.
[10:54]For younger generations, they may not have
[10:58]like a whole childhood to process at this point.
[11:00]They may not be looking back with that lens.
[11:04]I think it's the same framework
[11:07]of viewing this part of you that's people pleasing
[11:11]as a part that is trying to keep you safe.
[11:15]And it's really easy to shame ourselves for it.
[11:18]What's wrong with me?
[11:19]Why am I like this?
[11:20]And to instead create a relationship to this part
[11:24]that's working over time to try to keep you safe
[11:28]to be able to pause, release some of the urgency
[11:32]and to then look inward and soothe ourselves
[11:35]versus immediately seeking external validation.
[11:39]So for example, if you are trying to decide what
[11:44]to wear tonight and you want your instinct,
[11:47]your immediate habit is to text for friends.
[11:50]What do I look good in?
[11:51]What looks, tell me what looks bad to look good?
[11:56]To be able to first look inward?
[11:59]What do I think?
[12:00]What do I feel good in?
[12:01]What feels good to me?
[12:02]And it sounds so simple,
[12:04]but because that phon response habit
[12:08]is to immediately look externally for safety
[12:11]to break that and look inward first
[12:14]before looking out.
[12:16]And we might still look out and that's okay.
[12:18]We're not meant to be in complete solitude,
[12:21]but just to add that break and that pause
[12:24]to release some of that urgency around making sure
[12:27]that others like us is very liberating.
[12:31]And there's so many other things I could talk about
[12:32]of not taking things personally and blah, blah,
[12:35]but I think we can start, we can start there.
[12:38]In addition to putting out this super helpful framework,
[12:42]which by the way, could be interpreted as another way
[12:45]of pleasing people is that now you are solving
[12:47]everybody's problems.
[12:48]Just saying, throw that out there.
[12:50]You also talk about your own relationships
[12:54]with your parents and your mother's early on said,
[12:58]all time, I'm so sorry about that.
[13:00]Thank you.
[13:01]This one moment where you really felt like she was saying goodbye
[13:05]and moment of sort of lucidity and the midst
[13:07]of a lot of terrible times.
[13:10]And a lot of the specific behaviors that your dad did
[13:15]and continues to do in their relationship.
[13:17]So as you're putting this book into the world
[13:20]for the rest of us, thank you.
[13:22]Your whole, how are you feeling about what you're exposing
[13:26]about your own family and how are they feeling about it?
[13:29]Thank you for asking that and something that I share
[13:32]and the acknowledgements that put in, obviously,
[13:34]making the book is my dad actually passed away.
[13:37]Oh, no, I'm sorry.
[13:38]Three days after I turned in the final manuscript,
[13:41]which was so messy and complicated
[13:45]because as you know, in the book,
[13:48]I talked so much about my mom's mortality
[13:50]and processing for listeners.
[13:53]My mom started to show symptoms of Alzheimer's
[13:55]when I was 19 and she was 59.
[13:59]So very young and so for the past,
[14:02]my whole 20s was processing her eventual passing
[14:06]and she is still here.
[14:09]She outlived him and that is so,
[14:12]my dad's, my dad passed away through
[14:15]unexpectedly, health related concern causes,
[14:19]but it was a big shock.
[14:21]And so it just really adds to the messiness of grief
[14:27]that grief isn't just as I talk about,
[14:31]it's not just losing someone when they pass,
[14:34]it's also grieving what never was and what can't be.
[14:38]But I wrote it expecting him to read it.
[14:43]And so that was really,
[14:45]I really think that that was an act
[14:47]of healing the father spawns for me
[14:49]because I knew that in order for me to write this book
[14:53]in the way that I wanted to,
[14:54]I had to share something.
[14:56]And I was very careful of course
[14:59]and there's a lot I don't say.
[15:01]There's a lot I don't share.
[15:03]I was very careful about it,
[15:05]but I knew he would read it
[15:06]and I knew that there would be some feelings about it,
[15:10]but I feel grateful that I did call him
[15:13]when I was writing the book
[15:15]or when I got the book deal and said to him,
[15:19]I do need to acknowledge some things that I experienced
[15:25]and he was actually really supportive about it
[15:27]and I feel really grateful that I had that support
[15:30]but it was really vulnerable
[15:32]and I feel like I still don't even think too hard
[15:35]about people reading it.
[15:37]Like that, that's not happening.
[15:41]People won't know this.
[15:43]Yeah, it was vulnerable and challenging
[15:45]but to let myself,
[15:46]this is healing the father's response
[15:48]to be connected to who I am,
[15:51]knowing that I can't control how it's being perceived,
[15:55]understanding that it might be misunderstood.
[15:57]It might be misjudged.
[16:00]I can't control that,
[16:01]but should that stop me from speaking
[16:05]what I'm feeling,
[16:07]that's healing the father's response
[16:08]so it was a bit of a meta healing process.
[16:11]Well, I'm sorry that happened.
[16:14]Thank you, I appreciate it.
[16:15]You have a lot in here about not to how not
[16:18]to take things personally as you referenced
[16:20]and one of the things along those lines
[16:23]is asking yourself,
[16:25]do I even like the person who I'm worried doesn't like me?
[16:29]And it sounds so obvious, right?
[16:31]But we don't stop to think,
[16:33]like, oh, wait, do I even care?
[16:36]Like, why do I care?
[16:37]Is this even the type of person I would be friends with?
[16:40]So why do I care that they don't wanna be friends with me?
[16:42]And why does their acceptance matter
[16:45]when they might not be my cup of tea?
[16:47]Can you talk a little bit about that?
[16:49]And why do we do that?
[16:50]Of course, well, knowing that the phone response
[16:53]finds safety through being liked.
[16:55]So it doesn't matter and by doing more.
[16:57]The more I do, the more I can be loved.
[17:00]That's the phone response.
[17:01]And so there's no nuance there.
[17:05]It's just black or white.
[17:06]It's, am I safe or am I not?
[17:07]Do they like me or do they not?
[17:09]Am I good or are they bad?
[17:11]There's no room for nuance.
[17:13]So to allow for nuance, to allow ourselves
[17:17]to kind of question this immediate instinct
[17:20]is really liberating where we find safety in being liked,
[17:25]but then we recognize, oh, we don't even like everyone.
[17:27]So why would everyone like us?
[17:29]And I also discuss the more we know ourselves,
[17:33]the more connected to who we are,
[17:35]to our preferences, our style, our opinions.
[17:39]People may like us less.
[17:41]We may not, because we're not no longer morphing ourselves
[17:45]and contorting ourselves to be losing to everyone.
[17:48]No, that doesn't mean everyone hates us
[17:51]and that we're flipping the bird everyone that bothers us.
[17:54]It just means we're connected to who we are.
[17:56]And we can be kind and not be loved
[18:00]by everyone at the same time.
[18:02]And that's okay.
[18:03]I think it's actually a really good thing.
[18:05]Even just hearing you say that gives me anxiety.
[18:08]I'm saying, no, of course.
[18:10]I'm saying this to myself and my heart's racing,
[18:13]just saying it, it's so real.
[18:17]And I think the healing happens through seeing
[18:19]that it's safe when someone,
[18:22]and it doesn't have to be a big thing.
[18:24]Like I think for many people that are drawn
[18:27]to this question of, are you mad at me?
[18:29]Like myself, learned that in adulthood,
[18:32]if there's a conflict, the relationship is over.
[18:35]It's ruined.
[18:36]There's no going back.
[18:37]Conflict feels like such a big deal in our minds.
[18:41]And if someone doesn't necessarily,
[18:44]even not liking you feels like harsh words,
[18:48]if someone, you're not someone's cup of tea.
[18:50]It's not, they're not screaming at you.
[18:53]They're not insulting you.
[18:54]It can just be, they don't text you to hang out again
[18:58]after you got dinner with them one time.
[19:00]Okay.
[19:01]Did you enjoy your time with them?
[19:03]And it's okay if you didn't.
[19:04]We only have so much time and energy
[19:06]for so many relationships and taking feedback from people
[19:09]that we respect and admire and look up to,
[19:13]knowing we cannot take feedback from everyone.
[19:16]It would be too conflicting.
[19:17]So.
[19:18]And we go back to what you're saying about this need
[19:20]to stay busy, what you also put in here,
[19:23]about how we have to take on more and more.
[19:25]And just like run it full capacity
[19:27]and how it's actually the stress response
[19:29]and the like sort of addiction to the adrenaline
[19:32]of it all that feels it because it's like at that rate.
[19:35]Yeah, for sure.
[19:36]I mean, that my safety lies in doing more.
[19:40]And there's always more to do.
[19:41]So that's, that's a tough cycle to be in as well.
[19:45]I have these different archetypes
[19:47]of how people pleasing shows up.
[19:50]And one of them is the perfectionist.
[19:52]And I think that archetype, I use that loosely,
[19:56]not as a personality type, but as a pattern.
[19:58]And just.
[20:00]this idea that if I'm just more perfect,
[20:03]if I'm just have this one extra thing on my resume
[20:06]or this one extra relationship in my network,
[20:10]then I'll be enough and it doesn't end
[20:14]because then the mind that will be achieved
[20:16]and the mind will then raise the bar
[20:19]because we get used to that achievement quite quickly.
[20:22]And it doesn't mean we're never striving towards something,
[20:26]but it's just being conscious
[20:29]of when is it coming from a place of purpose
[20:31]and when is it coming from a place of survival?
[20:34]I remember reading a spoof of an essay a while back
[20:38]like years ago of someone who was lamenting
[20:42]that even though they were on the New York Times
[20:43]bestseller list, they weren't like number three
[20:46]or that they only stayed on for a week at number six
[20:49]and I was like, oh my gosh, they must be totally kidding.
[20:51]Like obviously nobody even knows what number it is.
[20:54]But now that I'm like in this world,
[20:56]like people are not kidding at all.
[20:58]People care, how long, what number?
[21:01]And I'm like any of this would be amazing
[21:03]if you hit the list, you're on the list, you're on the list.
[21:06]But the more granular you get with how you define success,
[21:10]the less easy it is to achieve.
[21:13]It also speaks to the hedonic treadmill of we,
[21:17]the great thing and the horrible thing
[21:19]about being a person is that we adapt so quickly.
[21:23]So even like getting a book deal,
[21:25]that might be the most crazy life altering.
[21:28]Oh my God, this is a live dream.
[21:30]And then it happens, you start writing it
[21:32]and you get used to it pretty quickly.
[21:33]It becomes your reality.
[21:35]And then I imagine if you became a bestseller,
[21:38]that's, oh my gosh, live dream, oh my gosh.
[21:41]But then once you get used to it, okay, now for your next one,
[21:43]you'll expect it from yourself.
[21:44]And maybe it's no longer as exciting.
[21:47]So just, and that voice I think will always be there
[21:50]similar to the people-pleasy voice that's always there,
[21:54]but managing it, like being, checking it a little bit,
[21:59]being a little curious about it.
[22:01]And what I find helpful when that perfectionistic voice
[22:04]comes in is look at your current reality
[22:07]through the lens of your past self.
[22:09]And I think for a lot of people that are in that perfectionistic
[22:13]tendency, their past self would have died to have that
[22:16]or they would be so thrilled to have that reality
[22:20]for a lot of these achievements
[22:22]or whatever we're thinking about here.
[22:24]So yeah, we're not trying to erase that voice,
[22:27]but just become aware of it.
[22:29]And one other thing, I actually took a picture of the page
[22:31]I was reading and texted it to my friend as well
[22:35]because we were playing tennis the other day
[22:37]and I was apologizing every shot I hit in the net.
[22:40]I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I can't play today.
[22:42]I don't know what's wrong in these.
[22:43]Like I've never played tennis where my entire life
[22:45]I'm so sorry, and literally across the net,
[22:47]she's like, you know, there's the thing called spot
[22:50]lighting where you think that everyone's noticing you.
[22:53]She's like, I've messed up just as much as you,
[22:55]but you feel like it's all on you.
[22:57]And I was like, oh, huh, store that away.
[22:59]And I literally was reading your book
[23:01]and there it was.
[23:01]So I had to text her.
[23:03]But it's so true.
[23:04]It's like it doesn't go away.
[23:06]You just keep thinking.
[23:07]I know you have some experiment about an ugly t-shirt
[23:09]that you mentioned in the book, but we always think
[23:12]that everybody's paying attention and in truth.
[23:14]And I know I give this advice to my kids.
[23:16]It's just so much harder to take.
[23:17]Oh, it's so hard.
[23:18]You know that not everybody is paying attention to you.
[23:21]It's hard to take the advice ourselves
[23:23]for the very reason the study exists,
[23:25]which is we're so focused on ourselves.
[23:28]Like that might be true for other people,
[23:29]but for me, everyone's really noticing my myself.
[23:33]So yeah, we all have our own lives and egos and relationships.
[23:38]And that's not bad.
[23:39]We have an ego where people were not erasing that.
[23:43]It's just managing it.
[23:45]It's just noticing that voice and letting it go
[23:47]when we can.
[23:48]I think.
[23:49]So are you worried?
[23:51]Do you still get all this anxiety that you put out a book
[23:54]and is it perfect and are you okay?
[23:56]Are you okay?
[23:57]Oh my gosh, yeah.
[23:59]The difference is I just don't believe those thoughts
[24:02]as much anymore.
[24:03]Like my default doesn't feel that way anymore,
[24:07]but I still have waves of it because those are human emotions.
[24:12]And I think we have this false fantasy
[24:15]that once we quote heal, which is not a checkbox at all,
[24:19]it's ongoing.
[24:21]Once we do this thing, then I won't feel these hard emotions anymore
[24:25]or like I'll just be happy and peaceful the time.
[24:27]And that's a false fantasy because their emotions
[24:31]and their human and we're meant to have them
[24:33]and their proof that we're alive in this body.
[24:36]And so yeah, certainly I get lots of waves of it
[24:39]and perfectionistic voice comes in.
[24:41]And I just know when it's useful and I know when it's not.
[24:44]But it doesn't mean it's there.
[24:47]And I think it will be because the point is that this is
[24:49]a younger part that's trying to protect us.
[24:53]And if we were to say, go away,
[24:55]I don't want you here anymore.
[24:56]I'm trying to get rid of you.
[24:58]For many of us, we're actually just replicating
[25:00]the same story we were told growing up,
[25:02]which is something's wrong with you.
[25:04]You need to change.
[25:06]So I have a relationship with that part now
[25:09]instead of trying to get rid of it.
[25:11]Well, I also love that growing up everybody,
[25:14]even your mom was like, okay, you're just really sensitive.
[25:17]And I got that too.
[25:19]Like you're just so sensitive.
[25:21]And I'm like, okay, and how you show us, like,
[25:25]A, why, and B, that there are a lot of strengths to that.
[25:30]And it's not necessarily us, it's our environment
[25:34]and how we're shaped and all of that.
[25:36]So that's off to the other sensitive souls out there.
[25:39]Absolutely.
[25:40]You're not broken.
[25:41]There's nothing wrong with you.
[25:43]Absolutely.
[25:44]I'm hoping that you have a lot of pages in the book
[25:47]that are full pages.
[25:47]I mean, I have the galley, but I'm assuming
[25:49]that it's gonna be the same
[25:50]and that you have like a big, powerful quote.
[25:52]Like I am allowed to acknowledge the loss that I feel.
[25:55]There is enough space in my being
[25:57]for both grief and gratitude and these little
[25:59]text marks that I feel there in the final version.
[26:02]Okay, good.
[26:03]And I'm hoping that there's like,
[26:04]I hope these become the type of things
[26:06]that people print out for their dorm rooms
[26:09]and that maybe you put it on cardstock
[26:11]and like dorm fires the thing or that ways
[26:13]that you can make these top of mind early
[26:18]in a preventative way because they're really powerful.
[26:21]Everyone.
[26:22]And to that point of reaching younger people sooner,
[26:26]I think also just modeling.
[26:28]Modeling, we're not supposed to be perfect.
[26:32]Perfect parents, perfect partners.
[26:34]So just to even, to say aloud,
[26:38]oh, I'm feeling anxious
[26:39]and this is how I'm moving through it
[26:41]to have conflict and repair after the fact.
[26:46]Like we're gonna lose our shits some time.
[26:49]We're gonna react in a way we're not proud of
[26:51]to go back to the moment and say,
[26:54]honey, I yelled and I'm really sorry about that.
[26:58]That was in your fault.
[26:59]That was on me and I'm really working
[27:01]on managing my emotions better.
[27:03]Like that is the healing.
[27:05]It's not that the conflict or the rupture
[27:08]won't ever happen.
[27:09]It will and repair is such an opportunity for closeness.
[27:13]So it's, I think it's just through, you know,
[27:15]showing our process to whoever we're living with
[27:20]is so empowering and beautiful.
[27:22]Well, I'm so excited about this book.
[27:25]You're gonna help so many people.
[27:27]So many people are gonna feel just so free.
[27:30]So free of some of the burdens, psychological burdens.
[27:33]And I'm excited to watch this ripple
[27:37]and see what happens.
[27:38]Thank you, fingers at least.
[27:40]I just, I wanted to help as many people,
[27:43]pleasers, caretakers, perfectionists is possible.
[27:46]So that's the goal.
[27:48]Here, I have no doubt that you'll take you.
[27:50]Thank you so much.
[27:52]I'll be cheering for you.
[27:53]Thank you for having me.
[27:54]Appreciate it.
[27:55]Take care.
[27:55]Bye.
[27:56]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi.
[27:59]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[28:01]If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[28:04]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[28:07]and spread the word.
[28:09]Thanks so much.
[28:10]Oh, and bye the books.