Kitty Zeldis, ONE OF THEM: A Novel
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[0:44]Kitty Zelda's is the author of one of them, a novel, born in Chadara, Israel.
[0:50]Kitty is the pseudonym for the in-award winning author of nine novels and over 40 books
[0:54]for children.
[0:55]Her essays, articles, and short fiction have been published in many national and literary
[0:59]publications.
[1:01]She is also the fiction editor of Lilith Magazine.
[1:04]Zelda slives in Brooklyn, New York.
[1:06]Welcome Kitty, thank you so much for coming on totally book to talk about one of them
[1:10]a novel.
[1:11]Congratulations.
[1:12]Thank you.
[1:13]First of all, I just want to get this clear this up.
[1:16]You have a pseudonym.
[1:17]Why?
[1:18]Well, because the previous novels that I wrote were contemporary, and in 2018, I published
[1:24]a novel with Harper Collins called Madar Khan, which is also in the 40s.
[1:28]And they said, we think this is different than enough to kind of warrant a relaunch.
[1:33]And so, I mean, they asked me, and Zelda's is my maiden name.
[1:37]So that obvious, and Kitty is a college nickname.
[1:40]I have a whole host of people who have called me Kitty from many years.
[1:44]And so it felt like quite natural, and I thought, OK, we'll do that.
[1:48]Well, very cool.
[1:49]OK.
[1:50]So just a desk.
[1:51]OK, tell listeners what one of them is about.
[1:54]It's a friendship novel.
[1:55]Got a romance.
[1:56]Two young women who beat it, Vassar, in late 1940s, both are Jewish, but one is pretending
[2:02]not to be Jewish.
[2:03]She thinks that this is, you know, she's an assimilated Jewish girl, so she's grown up
[2:07]around non-Jews.
[2:09]And she's encountered various subtle forms of prejudice, and she's decided.
[2:15]College is a restart for her.
[2:16]Her father dies.
[2:17]Her mother's died.
[2:18]It's been dead for a long time.
[2:19]Her father dies right before she goes to college.
[2:21]And she has a very non-Jewish sounding last name, because her father changed his name.
[2:27]Even though he functioned as a Jew in the world, he was getting started as a lawyer.
[2:31]And it seemed to him that it would be advantageous to not have a Jewish last name.
[2:35]So she can get by with this name that does not sound Jewish.
[2:37]And she thinks this is going to solve all her problems, but it only creates new problems
[2:41]as she couldn't possibly anticipate.
[2:44]So it's about the two of them and how they come together, break apart, and ultimately come
[2:49]together again.
[2:50]Would you mind if I read a little bit from the beginning?
[2:54]I've walked.
[2:55]OK.
[2:56]That would be great.
[2:57]There's a little bit about this being Jewish and the prejudice that comes right away.
[3:02]OK.
[3:03]So the group of friends is talking about another woman, Delia, and they're not saying
[3:10]the word Jewish, but they mean that.
[3:13]So this is in the first chapter.
[3:15]So they're talking about her, and they say, do you think she was doing something illicit,
[3:18]illegal, even?
[3:19]Tabitha sounded mildly titillated by the possibility.
[3:22]Could be Muse Peggy, maybe she's a thief or a spy.
[3:25]The war was only just behind them.
[3:27]There had been a lot of talk about spies.
[3:29]The girls fell silent for a moment as they tried to imagine Delia's clandestine mission.
[3:33]But no one had anything concrete to offer.
[3:35]Well, even if it's not anything like that, it's still strange.
[3:38]Maybe she finally said she's a strange girl, but they all are.
[3:41]And was well aware of what they meant.
[3:44]She'd heard it used the same way many times before.
[3:47]What can you expect, Sedmit, everyone knows they're a bit devious, and that they keep
[3:50]to themselves, exclusive at Virginia and Superior, like they think they're better than
[3:55]other people.
[3:56]There was a general murmur of ascent, although no one said they were Jewish aloud and
[4:00]knew that that was what they were talking about.
[4:02]Being one of the few Jewish girls of Esther, Delia was immediately set apart.
[4:06]Her background had been a subject of intense interest and scrutiny since freshman year.
[4:11]And then she just goes on to figure out how she's going to deal with this.
[4:15]And like any good Jewish person, she throws allergies into the conversation.
[4:18]So anyway, tell me how did anything like this ever happen to you?
[4:23]Like where did this come from and what do we do with this level of prejudice then into
[4:29]now?
[4:30]Well, those are two different questions.
[4:32]So let me address the first one like how I grew up in Brooklyn in a kind of middle
[4:37]class, you know, a large middle class neighborhood.
[4:39]And it was segregated in a way, but comfortably so, that the Jewish kids went to the public
[4:45]school.
[4:46]There were Catholic kids, Italian, Irish, who went to the Proko school.
[4:50]We saw these kids, they saw us, we didn't hang out, but there was no animosity that
[4:55]I ever recall.
[4:56]They just kind of stuck to their own kind and we stuck to our own kind.
[5:00]Then in 1974, I went to Verso and that was, what could I say?
[5:05]Did you go to Nightingale by the way?
[5:08]No, I didn't go to Nightingale, I went to school in Brooklyn.
[5:11]But Verso was many things, I mean, it was a wonderful place for me and truly an intellectual
[5:16]awakening, but I suddenly was confronted with all these wasps, very different than the kids
[5:23]I had known in my neighborhood, I was like a tsunami of them and they excited me, they
[5:30]frightened me, I was disdainful, I was admiring, they were just so different.
[5:36]And I mean, that's how the name Kitty came about because I have a very Jewish sounding
[5:39]name, I have a Hebrew name, and I said to a good friend of mine, I don't belong here,
[5:44]Katharine Ann Worthington belongs here, and he said kitty and that was it, like in 1978
[5:49]and I'm still kitty, now I'm kitty on the page.
[5:52]So, you know, I kind of never, how to say this, I never really grew out of that, like
[5:59]the intersection, because I'm not, I'm Jewish but not religious, I've never been observant
[6:04]and my family was not, in fact, and this sort of works its way into the novel, my parents
[6:09]who are Americans and grew up in Detroit, they went Israel in 1949, you know, they wanted
[6:15]to be part of that and lived there for nine years, and my brother and I were both born
[6:18]there.
[6:19]So, being Jewish for me was connected with that, only in a kind of abstract way because
[6:25]we left when I was a baby, I didn't go back to Israel until I was 18.
[6:29]So that intersection of you, Nanju, and a married man who was in Jewish, and like that
[6:34]was never a problem for us, in fact it was a good thing.
[6:37]So I continue to be interested in that, like how are we going to find our place in this
[6:43]bigger world, and setting it in the 1940s seemed good because those delineations were even
[6:49]more sharply drawn at that time, you know, I mean you still have the word restricted
[6:54]being used very openly, like can everyone have that met, you don't like those people,
[6:59]they're not going to be here, don't worry, they're not going to live near you, they're
[7:02]not going to like be in the dining with you in a hotel, so, you know, that's cool, like
[7:07]they know they don't belong here and we know they're going to keep them out of here.
[7:10]So that was kind of where I was with this.
[7:13]It's interesting, you know, taking this on a college campus and seeing what's going on
[7:17]on college campuses today and the craziness that has ensued.
[7:23]This is almost a precursor in a way, although, you know, things have just exploded.
[7:29]Tell me about that and what you think about what's happened on college campuses and how
[7:34]this story like years leads to something like this.
[7:37]I am kind of shocked as I think many people my age are and I read Brett Stevens in the
[7:43]time, so I'd be regularly, who's Jewish by the way, like, who knew, with a name like that?
[7:47]And he said, you know, prior to this, like in the 40s and the 30s, Jews were the
[7:54]undesirables, the vermin, the brown people, if you will.
[7:57]And now we are undesirable in a different way.
[8:00]Now we're the white oppressors, like we've turned into that.
[8:03]And I still don't understand how that happened, but that seems where we are and though
[8:09]I feel very unhappy about what's going on in Israel, as do, you know, I have a closest
[8:15]really friend and, you know, she said that to me as well, but the reaction even before
[8:19]October 7th, I kind of felt like being anti-Israel or anti-Zionist was a socially acceptable
[8:25]even palatable, admirable form of anti-Semitism, like you could talk, you wouldn't say
[8:31]the kinds of things you would have said in the past, but you could talk about this.
[8:35]And I don't really know where to go with that.
[8:37]I mean, I'm not a very politically engaged person, honestly, it makes me want to like
[8:41]go under that chair there and think.
[8:44]I don't know.
[8:45]I can't figure it out.
[8:46]I want everybody to be okay.
[8:48]Like I want everyone to just be okay and to live together in peace and harmony.
[8:52]That's what I want.
[8:53]That would be amazing.
[8:54]That would be amazing.
[8:55]I would be amazing.
[8:56]Oh my gosh.
[8:58]So how did you feel writing this book?
[9:01]When did you start writing it?
[9:02]Had October 7th happened?
[9:03]It must not happen.
[9:04]Well, it did not.
[9:05]And I didn't know that Palestine was going to be a part of this book.
[9:09]And I did get some pushback, you know, a couple of people who said, like this might
[9:15]be a really hot button.
[9:16]I know why you show you.
[9:17]I'm for that.
[9:18]Because I know me.
[9:19]And I'm not.
[9:20]But it's where the story took me and I wanted to go there and I really tried to offer
[9:25]a balanced view that everybody has a point of view here and both points of view are valid.
[9:32]I mean, you know, I think the Jewish presence there and the formation of the country
[9:38]was not wrong, but people were displaced and I understand that they felt unhappy about
[9:43]that.
[9:44]You know, of course they did.
[9:45]So I really tried hard to balance the view and not make it seem like the Jewish position.
[9:51]The Zionist position was the only one that counted and just from a practical level.
[9:58]If you don't want to hear.
[10:00]The other side, don't never be peace.
[10:03]Like, just say, I don't care, you're wrong.
[10:07]Like, you've got to be able to hear what the other side says
[10:11]in order to fashion some sort of plan for going forward.
[10:15]Yes, tired to take it out of any sort of conflicts
[10:18]without communication.
[10:19]Right, it's like the person who literally
[10:21]becomes political.
[10:22]You know, if you're having a fight with your spouse or something,
[10:25]I mean, so I don't care how you feel.
[10:27]Like, that's not gonna work out very well.
[10:29]You don't have to hear it if you don't like it.
[10:31]Yeah, definitely not helping at the dinner table.
[10:34]If you don't, nobody says, I'm sorry, ever, you know, right.
[10:39]We've tried that.
[10:40]That doesn't work.
[10:42]Oh, my gosh.
[10:44]Tell me a little bit about how you wrote the book,
[10:48]what you do outlet, like the process of writing it,
[10:52]which pieces of the story stuck out to you
[10:55]from the beginning, like how did the whole thing come to be?
[10:58]Well, I knew the, I knew the masterpiece, you know,
[11:01]and I felt like I could write about that very comfortably.
[11:03]As I said, I didn't know the Palestine piece.
[11:05]Paris was fun because it's in Paris, always fun.
[11:10]Love that.
[11:10]I don't work from an outline.
[11:12]I don't.
[11:13]I like to think characters what drives me, you know?
[11:16]And if I know these people are and what they want
[11:19]and what they don't want, you know,
[11:20]like they kind of take me along and say, okay,
[11:24]I'm doing this now.
[11:25]And now it's your turn.
[11:26]You have to write it, like,
[11:28]I let that be the guide.
[11:30]And I think that's like not,
[11:32]I mean, that's a pretty standard way
[11:33]to get a lot of writers about that, right?
[11:35]Do you ever continue characters on?
[11:39]Like, would you ever sort of fast-forward
[11:42]write a contemporary novel about it?
[11:44]I don't think so.
[11:46]I didn't do it.
[11:46]I mean, maybe I'm not saying never,
[11:49]but like with this book, I feel like I did what I wanted to do.
[11:51]Yep.
[11:53]I would like to go on to something else.
[11:55]And tell me between Vassar and now,
[11:57]how you've written many books
[12:00]and before you're shift to this particular genre,
[12:03]talk about becoming an author
[12:05]and how you overcame any obstacles along the way.
[12:08]Well, I didn't set out to be an author.
[12:10]I actually went to grad school in art history
[12:12]because I majored in art history and as an undergrad.
[12:15]And I liked it.
[12:16]And I thought, okay, I guess I'll do more of this.
[12:19]And I went to Columbia.
[12:20]And I found out that everything I liked
[12:23]about being an undergraduate was not true at Columbia.
[12:25]Like, it was so different.
[12:27]It's a big program.
[12:29]I have a good friend.
[12:30]And like the one who called me Kitty for the first time,
[12:32]who went to Yale, he was not a historian.
[12:34]They accepted eight people in the PhD program.
[12:36]Columbia accepted 60.
[12:38]So they're kind of counting on a lot of people
[12:40]not completing it.
[12:42]And you know, where's an undergraduate?
[12:44]I felt like a little African violet
[12:46]over whom a cohort of professors were leaning and saying,
[12:49]well, thrive, awesome.
[12:52]And you know, at Columbia, everybody had a briefcase.
[12:57]And I got a briefcase too,
[12:58]because I did not help, did not help at all.
[13:02]So while, and they didn't give me money,
[13:04]that was another thing.
[13:05]Like when there are eight students that Yale,
[13:07]they fund all of them.
[13:08]And you know, nobody's going into art history
[13:10]to make a lot of money.
[13:11]That's like not a profession that generally
[13:13]is very remunerative.
[13:14]So I'm in debt and in this program that I can see
[13:17]is not really like working out for me.
[13:20]And while I'm there, I'm allowed to take classes
[13:22]elsewhere in the University.
[13:23]I take a fiction writing class.
[13:24]And I think that was it.
[13:25]I had, you know, Oprah's a hollowman.
[13:27]I thought, you know, you could do this with your life.
[13:29]I'm going to do this with my life.
[13:30]And I worked myself out of grad school.
[13:32]I got the MA, because I thought, well,
[13:33]we've already spent this money.
[13:35]We might as well have a degree for what it's worth.
[13:39]So I did that.
[13:39]And then I just said about trying to become a writer.
[13:42]I think, you know, I know I briefly entertained the MFA idea,
[13:46]but I was already in debt.
[13:48]I don't want to be in any work debt.
[13:50]So I wrote things for free, you know, to get clips.
[13:56]And then I was able to get more clips and writing assignments.
[13:59]And I kept writing fiction mostly short stories.
[14:02]So I did begin work on a novel.
[14:04]I didn't have my first novel published until I was 45.
[14:07]So, you know, it took me a while to get there.
[14:10]But I had two unpolished novels before that.
[14:12]So I wrote them, didn't publish them.
[14:15]But it was a path, it was a good path.
[14:17]It got me where I wanted to go.
[14:19]So I feel fortunate in that.
[14:21]And which of the other books, not in this genre,
[14:24]which are you most proud of?
[14:28]Well, I'm very partial to the first one,
[14:31]which is called the four temperaments.
[14:33]And the lot of means out there,
[14:35]that's the type, that's the name of a well-known
[14:38]Balanchine ballet.
[14:39]And I was a bunhead before that term was used.
[14:43]I went from Brooklyn to Manhattan for four days and five days
[14:47]to six days a week, all through high school.
[14:50]And high school, it's all up to 17.
[14:53]And I thought I would do that.
[14:54]And somewhere in there, I knew I was neither
[14:57]talented enough nor devoted enough to do this.
[15:00]So I left it very abruptly and I went to college.
[15:04]And it coincided with my parents very unpleasant divorce.
[15:08]So I just didn't look at it.
[15:10]I just shut it out of my life.
[15:12]And later on it began to haunt me
[15:14]that I had left in such an abrupt way
[15:17]in that I thought, you know, you could have incorporated
[15:19]this into your life in some fashion
[15:21]and not had it be a professional interest.
[15:24]But nevertheless, it's kind of defined you for years.
[15:27]And so that novel was like a reading vessel.
[15:30]Like all that feeling I had about those years
[15:34]and what it meant to me, I could pour into that.
[15:37]And the character, you know, the main characters
[15:39]in that novel is the dancer.
[15:41]I wasn't who was that talent and was that driven.
[15:45]You know, what was her story going to be?
[15:46]So I feel good about that novel.
[15:49]How did all that dancing affect your body image?
[15:53]Oh, you know, dancers.
[15:54]I mean, but in this country in general,
[15:56]like as a woman, your body's never right.
[15:58]I mean, I look at my daughter who's in her 20s.
[16:01]And I think she's perfect.
[16:02]And you know, she'll complain like, I don't like this.
[16:05]I don't like that.
[16:05]And I kind of want to say honey.
[16:07]It's just good now.
[16:08]It's just a bit of an angel.
[16:09]But you know, that sounds like that likes in the wrong message.
[16:12]Like, I don't think it's possible to be a woman in this culture
[16:16]and not feel insufficient in some way.
[16:18]Like, there's always something to hold you.
[16:20]Yes, and ballet does exacerbate that, unfortunately.
[16:24]But I'm not so hard-lined about it.
[16:26]I mean, you know, there are lots of different kinds of dancing.
[16:29]And I do think ballet is best performed
[16:32]by people with a certain body type.
[16:34]I just do, you know, I mean,
[16:35]I'm not supposed to play a big part to see that.
[16:37]But that's kind of maybe.
[16:39]It's okay.
[16:40]I won't tell you what.
[16:41]Okay.
[16:43]What are you working on now?
[16:44]Well, I'm launching this baby out into the world.
[16:47]So that'll take some doing.
[16:48]I have an idea for a book that would be said partially,
[16:52]I don't want to do the 40s again,
[16:54]maybe in the 1950s, that has some kind of work component,
[16:57]but also in the 18th century in Amsterdam,
[17:01]a woman who was a painter who was in Rachel Walsh,
[17:05]who was in her time more successful than her narrative.
[17:09]And it was a still life painter.
[17:11]So like not the kind of thing that you just learn in a day
[17:15]or week or month, like, things he used to do this.
[17:18]And she was initially schooled by her father,
[17:21]who was an amateur who came to her.
[17:22]And like that relationship really interests me.
[17:24]Like girls weren't even expected to read
[17:27]watch less paint like that.
[17:29]And yet he must have loved him very much.
[17:32]And, you know, wanting this for her
[17:35]and making sure that it didn't happen.
[17:36]So I won't, I like some sections of this too.
[17:40]But it's no more than an idea at this moment.
[17:44]That's okay.
[17:45]And what books are you particularly drawn to reading?
[17:48]Here's a really disappointing thing.
[17:50]I cannot read a novel when I'm writing one.
[17:53]I think it's like I'm trying to turn into a voice in my head.
[17:57]And if I read a novel, then I get confused.
[18:00]It's like static on the radio.
[18:02]Like I'm hearing that voice and I want to hear this voice.
[18:04]So I have to stick to other kinds of reading.
[18:09]I like poetry, I like poetry and I tend to read poetry
[18:13]that I've read before, like an old thing.
[18:16]You can come back to it again and again.
[18:19]And like I can be non-fiction.
[18:21]I read a really cool book where I think it's right here
[18:23]called When Women Run Fifth Avenue,
[18:26]about the park stores and this really enjoyable.
[18:30]So I can read things like that.
[18:31]But it's, I have to say it's a voice
[18:33]not to be reading novels.
[18:35]I don't know who I am when I don't.
[18:37]But I can't do it when I'm writing one.
[18:38]So, okay.
[18:39]Well, at least you know yourself.
[18:40]I mean, and what advice would you give to aspiring authors?
[18:46]Persistence is as important as talent.
[18:48]Like you cannot be daunted by rejection.
[18:53]It's just one person's opinion.
[18:55]It doesn't, it's not a global judgment on who you are
[18:59]as a writer or who you become.
[19:01]So I think you just have to be back in the day
[19:04]when I was sending out stories.
[19:05]You sent them out to snail mail.
[19:07]And when I got went back,
[19:10]I made myself get it back in the mail in 48 hours.
[19:13]I had a 48 hour rule.
[19:14]Because that was the thing that took the sting
[19:16]of rejection away.
[19:17]Like, okay, it didn't get accepted there,
[19:19]but it has a chance somewhere else.
[19:21]And I think that's, that's really important to,
[19:25]and not just to know that, but to put that into practice.
[19:29]You know, to keep, to just keep trying.
[19:32]It sounds kind of dull, but I am the fiction editor
[19:35]of the love magazine.
[19:36]And I have been for like 20 years.
[19:38]So I get that from like people say like,
[19:40]well, what's wrong with it or what should I do?
[19:42]Or why didn't you accept it?
[19:44]And I don't have time for lengthy conversations,
[19:47]but I do say to people, it's just my opinion.
[19:50]Like what doesn't work for me,
[19:51]I'm perfect for someone else to keep sending it out.
[19:54]You know, I'm not telling you it isn't good.
[19:56]I'm telling you, sometimes it isn't, that's true.
[19:59]But that's just,
[20:00]It's subjective, you know, response, right?
[20:02]I'm telling it doesn't work for me
[20:04]if we're what we're looking for here.
[20:06]If we're all done, lots of places to watch.
[20:09]And for those who are looking to publish in Lilith,
[20:12]for example, and actually someone just interviewed me
[20:14]from there.
[20:15]So I have a piece coming out soon, I think.
[20:17]It's vulnerable.
[20:18]Yeah.
[20:19]I didn't know.
[20:20]Yeah, I think it's going to be in this coming issue.
[20:23]Yeah, yeah.
[20:24]I Lauren, Alisa, Green, she interviewed me about the bookstore
[20:27]and owning a bookstore and all that.
[20:28]Anyway, we're going to share that issue
[20:30]because there was an excerpt from one of them
[20:32]in that fall issue.
[20:33]Oh, great.
[20:34]No, perfect.
[20:35]So if people are interested in getting their fiction published,
[20:39]like what do you tell them exactly?
[20:41]Not advice so much, but what are you looking for?
[20:44]And can people submit on solicit?
[20:46]Yes, go to our website, our guidelines are there.
[20:50]It has to be, has some feminist feminine content.
[20:54]Like, I think there's only one time in all the years
[20:57]that I've been doing this, that we published something
[20:59]with a male point of view, piece of fiction.
[21:01]Like women are not the objects in our story,
[21:04]like in what we publish, they're the subjects.
[21:06]And has that some Jewish content?
[21:08]Although that can be, that's also a loose term.
[21:11]Like, I have been good at what I call teasing out
[21:14]and Jewish content and things.
[21:16]Like, wait, it's not explicitly Jewish,
[21:18]but I feel like there's Jewish content in here.
[21:20]I just need to, you know, I will work with the author
[21:23]and say, is that what you meant?
[21:24]And if so, could you just bring it out a little bit more
[21:27]and that has worked?
[21:29]And it can't be both 3,000 words.
[21:31]We have a limited print run.
[21:34]I mean, our pages are always a certain number of pages.
[21:36]We never go above that.
[21:38]And so, I get people that send a story that's 6,000 words.
[21:41]And I have to write them back and say,
[21:42]they can't even consider this.
[21:44]Like, you've got to either cut it or send me something else.
[21:47]But because we are a double niche,
[21:49]I don't feel like we get as many submissions
[21:51]as I would personally like.
[21:52]So I want to say to people, send me your stories.
[21:54]I will read that.
[21:55]I will read them quickly.
[21:57]And a couple of occasions, people have been grumpy.
[21:59]They thought I read it so quickly that I didn't really consider it.
[22:02]But that's not true.
[22:03]It goes into my personal email.
[22:05]If I see it there, I want to read it soon.
[22:06]So it doesn't slip down and like get away from me.
[22:10]And I know from being on the other side of this,
[22:12]even though it's not fun to hear no, I'd rather hear no
[22:15]than be waiting.
[22:16]And just think you like, did they get it?
[22:17]Did it just vanish into some like cyber hole somewhere?
[22:21]Give me an answer and I'll move on, right?
[22:23]If the answer is no, the answer is no.
[22:25]And so that's my advice.
[22:28]Like go to the website.
[22:29]Look, it tells you just how to do it.
[22:30]Like you can do it through some minimal.
[22:32]And I will read it.
[22:34]I will be involved reading it so please.
[22:36]I'll tell you your work.
[22:37]Neither.
[22:38]No, you're inspiring me.
[22:39]I don't even write short fiction, but you never know.
[22:42]You never know.
[22:43]You never know.
[22:45]Thank you so much, Kitty.
[22:46]This was so fun.
[22:47]Thank you for this beautiful novel
[22:49]and getting to go back to school
[22:52]when it's still summer without all the stress.
[22:54]So thank you for that.
[22:55]And for all you do to elevate voices and everything.
[22:58]So thank you.
[22:59]Same.
[23:00]I really, really enjoyed this.
[23:02]Thank you.
[23:03]All right.
[23:03]Thank you so much.
[23:04]Thank you so much.
[23:05]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi.
[23:08]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[23:10]If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[23:13]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[23:16]and spread the word.
[23:18]Thanks so much.
[23:19]Oh, and buy the books.