Sarah Hurwitz, AS A JEW: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us
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[0:45]Sarah Hurwitz is the author of As A Jew, reclaiming our story from those who blame shame
[0:50]and try to erase us.
[0:51]Sarah served as a White House speechwriter from 2009 to 2017, first as a senior speechwriter
[0:57]for President Barack Obama, and then head speechwriter for First Lady Michelle Obama.
[1:02]She was the chief speechwriter for Hillary Clinton on her 2008 presidential campaign.
[1:08]Her Whits is the author of Here All Along, Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a deeper connection
[1:13]to life in Judaism, after finally choosing to look there, which was a finalist for two
[1:18]National Jewish Book Awards, and the Sammy Roar Prize for Jewish Literature.
[1:22]She has been profiled throughout the media from profiles in the Washington Post, Boston
[1:26]Globe, and the Guardian to appearances on the today show, Morning Joe and NPR.
[1:30]The forward has twice named her one of 50 Jews who has impacted American life.
[1:35]Her Whits is a graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Law School, and was a 2017 fellow
[1:39]at the Institute of Politics at Harvard.
[1:42]This is her second time on Totally Booked.
[1:44]Welcome, Sarah.
[1:45]So glad to have you back on Totally Booked to talk about, as a Jew, reclaiming our story
[1:49]from those who blame shame and try to erase us.
[1:52]Congratulations.
[1:53]Thank you.
[1:54]So much for having me.
[1:55]It is great to be back.
[1:57]Uh-oh.
[1:58]Well, I love how you share your story with the reader in the book of your whole experience
[2:02]from when you were young to now, and then in the middle of it, give everybody a rundown
[2:08]of everything they need to know, reinterpreted, simplified, and made easily digestible
[2:17]in a time where people are starved for information, I think.
[2:21]And now there is, you know, a Bible, so to speak, so talk a little bit about the impetus
[2:28]for the project and what you want people to take out of it.
[2:31]Yeah.
[2:32]You know, it's so funny.
[2:33]I, as you know, I first came on the show when I written my first book, which was basically
[2:38]a love letter to Jewish tradition.
[2:40]It was, you know, I grew up with very little Jewish background.
[2:43]I rediscovered Judaism in my mid 30s, and I just thought, like, where has this been on
[2:47]my life?
[2:48]I wanted to show people the 4,000 years of wisdom about the human condition that our
[2:52]tradition offers, that so many of us don't even know exists.
[2:56]So I published this book.
[2:57]It's great.
[2:58]It's fun.
[2:59]COVID hits.
[3:00]I'm spending a lot of time just kind of doing what we're all doing, panicking, and trying
[3:04]to figure out what's next.
[3:05]And, you know, I started training to be a hospital chaplain because I wanted to do something
[3:09]to help.
[3:10]And it was so interesting how so many chaplains these open to people of all religious
[3:14]backgrounds and none, but so much to the language we were using was very Christian.
[3:18]It was interesting.
[3:19]You know, the idea of prayer was very Christian.
[3:21]We were always talking about our ministry and our theology.
[3:23]And I just thought, like, interesting.
[3:25]And then around in 2022, I went to a college campus where a student said to me, what did
[3:30]you do about antisemitism when you were in college?
[3:32]And I responded, what?
[3:33]And I literally didn't understand the question, and I said, nothing because I never experienced
[3:39]that.
[3:40]And then these kids all started talking about the antisemitism, they were experiencing.
[3:43]And I was like, wait a second.
[3:45]And so I actually kind of asked myself a question, like, what didn't I know about my
[3:49]all the beauty of Jewish tradition?
[3:51]Why was the Judaism I grown up with kind of this oddly edited idea of Judaism?
[3:56]And I dove into history and discovered that my Jewish identity, and I think many Americans
[4:00]Jews Jewish identity, has been infiltrated and deeply warped by centuries and centuries of
[4:06]antisemitism, antisudism.
[4:08]And by growing up in a country that is majority Christian, such that we really, we think
[4:12]in Christian terms, we have very negative feelings about Judaism and Jewish tradition.
[4:17]And it's really distance ourselves from our tradition.
[4:19]And my, my book is peeling back those layers, all those layers of shame, of distortion,
[4:26]and really, you know, urging that we reclaim Jewish traditions on Jewish terms.
[4:30]Love that.
[4:32]And you point out some things that maybe people didn't even realize or some, just how
[4:38]small the population of Jewish people has always been.
[4:41]It's not just now, but even centuries ago, being 1% of the population and, say, Europe
[4:48]or Germans, wherever, and having so much energy expended trying to root the Jewish people
[4:57]out.
[4:58]And the question is always, well, why, like, what's so bad?
[5:01]Why not just ignore us?
[5:03]What's why make the fuss?
[5:05]And like, you explain it in detail in the book and trace it over generations.
[5:09]But if you could answer it, simply, which of course is impossible, but no hard to do.
[5:14]Because it's so hard to do.
[5:16]But like, why is it such a bit like why, why carried what does it really care so much?
[5:21]That's a great question.
[5:22]I think if you grew up like I did where your antisemitism education, you got in Holocaust
[5:27]education, you just think, oh, antisemitism is this wild thing that happened in the mid
[5:32]20th century.
[5:33]We're out of nowhere.
[5:34]The Germans just lost their mind and got Europeans to slaughter six million Jews.
[5:38]It was a one-off.
[5:39]It was terrible.
[5:40]You know, there's been some bad stuff since then, but, oh, what a mystery.
[5:43]We have this idea that it's kind of a mystery.
[5:45]And antisemitism is actually not at all mysterious.
[5:48]It's really a result of centuries and centuries of universalizing traditions that cannot tolerate
[5:54]Jewish difference.
[5:55]And I think a lot of people think of antisemitism as a kind of social prejudice, right?
[5:59]They think it's like someone saying, well, Jews are cheap, greedy, dirty, ugly.
[6:05]I don't want to marry one.
[6:06]I don't want one in my club.
[6:07]I don't really see that that much anymore in America.
[6:10]But there is a kind of political antisemitism as a philosopher named Bernard Harrison talks
[6:14]about, which basically it kind of takes the shape of we, the majority, are engaged in this
[6:19]grand moral project to save humanity and the only thing stopping us is the Jews.
[6:24]So you have 2,000 years ago, you have the grand moral project of Christianity.
[6:28]We are Christianizing the Roman Empire and the only thing stopping us are these Jews.
[6:33]We have to do something about this.
[6:35]You have many years later, you have communist saying, we are bringing about the great
[6:39]revolution of man.
[6:40]And oh my gosh, who's stopping us?
[6:41]These capitalist Jews.
[6:43]You have Germany and Nazi times.
[6:45]We are bringing about the great area in revolution.
[6:47]We're going to be this area in fatherland who's stopping us, these race-polluting Jews.
[6:51]And then today in modern America, you see that's on both the right and the left.
[6:55]On the right, you have people saying, we are going to bring back white Christian civilization
[6:59]to America.
[7:00]The only thing stopping us are these globalist Jews who are importing black and brown people
[7:05]to take the place of white citizens, which is a bonkers conspiracy theory called the Great
[7:10]Replacement Theory.
[7:11]It is both racist and antisemitic.
[7:13]And on the left, you have people saying, we are bringing about anti-colonialism, anti-racism.
[7:17]Those are the greatest ills in the world and we are fighting them.
[7:20]And guess what?
[7:21]The only thing stopping us, it is this racist colonialist state of Israel.
[7:26]So again, it's the same patterns of thought, the same neural grooves of depravity, conspiracy,
[7:33]and power.
[7:34]This idea that Jews really embody these things and you just see it over and over again
[7:38]throughout history.
[7:39]It's actually quite depressing.
[7:41]It's a very depressing.
[7:42]I know.
[7:43]I'm sorry, my friends.
[7:44]And I think what you said about the population being so small is so important.
[7:49]You know, I have friends who were very educated and sophisticated, and one of them said,
[7:53]well, I thought that there were the same number of Jews, Muslims, and Christians in
[7:57]the world.
[7:58]And I was like, oh, sweetheart, no, we're 16 million with an M. That's the size of one
[8:02]city in China, like the fifth largest one.
[8:05]Okay.
[8:06]That's compared to 2.4 billion Christians, 1.9 billion Muslims.
[8:10]So just this, you know, we are a rounding error on the Chinese census as Rabbi Jonathan
[8:14]Saxe once called us.
[8:15]We are a tiny people, but again, people have just been obsessed with us.
[8:19]And there's actually a scholar named David Nierenberg who wrote this really mind-blowing
[8:24]book called Anti-Geeism, where he talks about throughout, in the past few thousand years,
[8:29]Western thought has largely been defined in opposition to Jews.
[8:33]It's sort of like whatever the bad thing is, it's Jewish and we're going to define ourselves
[8:36]in opposition to it.
[8:37]So it is a deep neural groove in Western thought that is really tough to find yourself
[8:42]in that canyon.
[8:43]Wow.
[8:44]And you show us how now it's so hard to find a place and a way to have the dialogue be proudly
[8:54]Jewish, enter into the debates.
[8:58]And it's so layered to the point where when friends of yours have asked you like where you're
[9:03]going, when you were on your way to Israel, you were just like, oh, just not a trip.
[9:06]Like not even wanting to get into it.
[9:08]Like talk a little bit about that.
[9:11]You know, I've just met so many Jews today who are just feeling very shocked and lost.
[9:16]And I so empathize, I feel the same way.
[9:19]You know, we had this wonderful break from history for 80 years in America, where it was
[9:23]really this kind of thriving of liberal democracy.
[9:27]And now we're seeing all these threats against democracy here and around the world.
[9:30]And that is very bad for Jews.
[9:32]And I think there is this instinct to say like, okay, we're going to fight anti-Semitism.
[9:36]You're going to be anti anti-Semites.
[9:38]And I so empathize with that.
[9:41]And I have such respect and appreciation for people who are working hard to fight anti-Semitism.
[9:46]But just lovingly and with all due respect, again, 16 million of us, 8 billion others,
[9:53]you know, Jews cannot fight anti-Semitism and end it.
[9:56]We just, we just can't, you know, this is, we don't control what haters.
[10:00]think of us antisemitism comes and goes based on when the people around us are feeling insecure,
[10:05]when they're feeling afraid and they need someone to blame. So whether it's an economic
[10:08]but downturn or plague, the idea that we control that is actually not true. And it can kind of
[10:15]take the form of this self shaming of gosh, if we only had the right tweet, the right PR campaign,
[10:21]then it's just we're failing. And I just respectfully again, that's not it. I think instead of
[10:27]trying to be antisemitism, it's what I really would just passionately urge Jews to do when I'm
[10:32]trying so hard to do is let's be Jews. Let's be proud, learned, passionate, engaged Jews. And
[10:39]you know, I tell students on college campuses when I speak, you know, if people won't let you be in
[10:44]their club because you're a Zionist, even by the way, when that means that you strongly pose
[10:48]these really government, you strongly oppose many of its policies, but you just think is
[10:52]those should exist. If even that is not tolerable to your classmates, form your own club,
[10:57]you know, you can form your own climate club instead of sitting around hating Zionists,
[11:01]you can just do climate change and make that club open to everyone, every student of every background.
[11:06]Anyone who wants to join you, you welcome them in and you may get an amazing club. This is what
[11:11]Jews have always done in this country. You know, we built when we were excluded, we built our own
[11:15]law firms, universities, hospitals, and we welcomed anyone who wanted to join us. And I think that
[11:20]that's something that we can do again. And if we have to, but now a lot of not to counter this,
[11:25]but now a lot of those institutions are becoming infiltrated with people who also then hate Jews,
[11:30]like Jewish hospitals, who now have like, you know, protest. And so it's starting, the cycle
[11:35]starting over again ironically, it is. And it's, you know, this is kind of, and I just
[11:40]something that I love about our people is we don't just tear down, we don't tear down, we build,
[11:44]right? When we are threatened, when we are struggling, you know, we build, that's what we do.
[11:49]Yeah. We create our own things. We, we dive into our texts, we dive into our wisdom and our
[11:54]tradition. And we have so much to offer the world right now. Jewish tradition has this
[11:59]counter cultural wisdom that we desperately need right now. And, you know, I'm happy to share some
[12:05]of it. If it's of interest, but that is something I really want you to know about their traditions
[12:08]and to be proud. Because here's the thing, if you don't know anything about Jewish tradition,
[12:12]you can't really do much in the face of antisemitism. If you don't know Jewish history,
[12:17]and someone tells you, Israel is a Nazi colonial state, what are you going to say? Like,
[12:22]I love to come along. That's not a, that's not a response. If someone tells you, oh, the Jewish god
[12:27]is, is vengeful and Judaism is legalistic and unspiritual. What were you going to say? Like,
[12:32]I like Seinfeld, my Bobby made good Google, you know, this kind of thin, contentless kind of
[12:37]Judaism as an ethnic joke identity. It's so heartbreaking because you're missing out on 4,000 years
[12:44]wisdom and community in tradition. And be, it just renders you totally help us in the face
[12:50]of even the slightest antisemitism. It's so true. At some point in the book, you were like,
[12:57]trying to make all these points. And every issue you tackle, you know, you can see you wrestling
[13:03]with trying to make it clear. Like, you do make it clear, but there's such nuance to everything. And
[13:09]there was one section where you were like, okay, well, now I'm going to be accused of what about
[13:14]ism. Like, what about this? What about that? So talk about even the act of writing this and hearing
[13:20]all the voices and trying to get ahead of what people are going to say and how you wrote a book
[13:26]having to counter that along the way. I love this question because you're right. This is such a
[13:31]struggle because I've actually someone with a lot of imposter syndrome and a lot of sort of anxiety
[13:37]about writing where it's like, any sentence I write, I'm already thinking of 20 counter arguments.
[13:41]Right. And I, and you could say, well, that's bad. I actually think it's great. I actually think that
[13:46]for me, that's kind of, I mean, it makes me miserable, but it's actually kind of a strength because
[13:50]I'm always trying to think about the other side. And something that I did, I showed this book to
[13:55]either one or more chapters to 80 people, 80 different people, people from all across the
[14:00]Jewish spectrum, the political spectrum. And I said, push back at me, tell me what doesn't work.
[14:05]Tell me what he did wrong way. Tell me what's inaccurate. Tell me the arguments I'm missing.
[14:09]And as a result, my book is just so much better. You know, it's so much more thoughtful. It's
[14:14]more new one. So I think some of the new ones you're seeing is not necessarily from me originally.
[14:18]Right. I originally could be quite strident and political. And I have people pushing back on me saying,
[14:23]hey, wait a second, that's not fair. Or, you know, you miss this, this counter argument. I
[14:27]felt like, okay, you know, I really wanted to write with a lot of compassion and humanity.
[14:32]And I am so tired of this polarization that we experienced, which is so profoundly
[14:37]on Jewish. Yes. Jewish tradition operates in polarities. It's never good, bad, wrong. Right.
[14:44]It's you're holding competing truths. You know, the Torah tells us love the stranger,
[14:48]care about the stranger. No fear. And then 36 times the stranger is the non Jew. It's the person
[14:53]from outside who's vulnerable. And we are commanded to care for them. It also says, remember,
[14:59]the amount of kites were a tribe that attacked the Israelites, the Jews from behind,
[15:03]meaning they were attacking the weakest members of the tribe, a terrible enemy. And so we're
[15:06]also being told, but don't be naive. Remember that there are people who hate you and want to
[15:10]kill you. You've got to pull both of those polarities. Love the stranger. Remember on the leg.
[15:15]And I see people who are just clinging to their one polarity so furiously and angrily in that,
[15:21]I'm sorry, that's just a contradiction to Jewish thinking, which is always balancing these competing
[15:26]claims. Kindness versus honesty, justice versus compassion. You got to hold them both.
[15:32]So it's really easy to be Jewish, huh? So easy. Come on.
[15:36]This is true. You're like taking texts that become. I mean, in the book that you continuously,
[15:44]like all the way through or saying, you get that this is challenging. Like you get that there is
[15:50]a lot of questioning. And that is actually what it means to be Jewish is to question and debate
[15:55]all of this and and that you yourself understand how it is to sort of reject all of this. Like
[16:02]that's a lot to ask. Like people are really busy and, you know, how much brain space do you need
[16:08]to commit to this when you're trying to make a living and raise kids into like now everybody has
[16:14]to do a deep dive into four thousand years. You know, like so totally this is why I write my books.
[16:20]for precisely this reason. Like people are raising families. They are doing jobs. They are taking
[16:25]care of all kinds of crises and challenges and problems in their lives. I would never say to someone,
[16:30]you have to spend 20 hours a week studying Jewish texts. Like that's not fair. I mean, we don't have
[16:35]time for that. But, you know, something that I love about our people is if you walk into almost
[16:40]any Jewish house, you see so many books, right? Jews are studying all the time. They're studying
[16:45]the great books that you promote. They're studying all kinds of the best sellers, the intellectual
[16:50]books, the self-help books. Like Jews are constantly studying other people's traditions and ideas.
[16:55]And all I'm asking them to do is just study ours. And even more basing than that, what I want to
[17:00]tell them is like we have wisdom, which if you grow up like I did, I showed up twice a year at a
[17:06]synagogue. And there was a theater, which I thought was boring and a Hanukkah party was awesome.
[17:11]And then there was to Kunilong. And there were two texts. There was the thing on the scrolls,
[17:15]the Torah and the book we were holding in our hand, the prayer book. That was the Judaism.
[17:20]I didn't know, you know, I knew that Catholics had thoughts about things like abortion and
[17:24]contraception. I knew that with the politicians I followed, I knew that they had ideas about poverty
[17:29]and criminal justice and immigration. I had no idea that Jewish tradition had thousands of
[17:34]years of wisdom about precisely these issues and so many more grief, death, illness, dying,
[17:40]aging, loneliness, how to be a good parent, spouse, partner, friend. We have so much wisdom. And it's
[17:46]often a lot deeper and a lot more profound than whatever kind of, you know, you do you think that
[17:52]the latest influencer is telling you. And so many Jews don't even know about that. So, you know,
[17:56]I want to tell Jews. And by the way, anyone who's interested in Jewish tradition, I've learned
[18:01]so much from other traditions. So I'm, please welcome in everyone. But I might tell people,
[18:06]A, we have this wisdom and B, you do, you have to do some work. You got to read some books, but
[18:11]we can do this. Jews read books or listen to books. However, however, however, you do this,
[18:15]it does take some work. It's true. But it's okay. It's just comes with the territory. By the way,
[18:22]I was so happy when I got to the part where you talk about anti-Semitism and the publishing industry
[18:28]right now because, you know, that is something I've been trying, obviously, those of us in the
[18:34]publishing world are affected by this continually talk about it. But I still feel like it doesn't
[18:39]get enough pushback or nothing into happening as a result of calling it out. And so the fact that
[18:45]now is in a book, like in history, not, and that you put it in the context of where it belongs.
[18:52]Like, talk a little bit about that and how do you feel now putting out a book, which of course is
[18:58]in this environment of anti-Semitism and everything. And then including the publishing piece in it.
[19:04]Yeah. I mean, this was a section where I talked about several different industries, right?
[19:07]But there was the therapy and the psychological industry. There was the publishing industry.
[19:11]Yeah. There was, I mean, there was academia. And unfortunately, I think there are a lot of other
[19:15]industries I could have written about too. You know, I have been so tremendously lucky with this book.
[19:20]I have gotten the most amazing Harper One at HarperCollins has been absolutely amazing.
[19:26]I've been amazing publisher, editor, marketer, publicist, like every person has been so supportive
[19:31]of me. So I feel like I have been lucky. But I know, you know, seeing the way that many authors
[19:38]are using their platforms and, you know, writing letters and saying things that I just think
[19:43]are not, they're not thoughtful criticisms. I spend so much time criticism, criticizing Israel.
[19:49]I have lots of criticisms. I've spent a lot of time criticizing America and our current leadership.
[19:53]But there's a big difference between a thoughtful critique that says this policy is unacceptable.
[19:57]This is hugely problematic. This is-
[20:00]and calling someone Nazis, right?
[20:02]Like this is an ingest labeling things
[20:04]with these ugly terms without backing up with facts,
[20:07]without making an argument.
[20:08]That's not acceptable.
[20:10]If you wanna have an argument about something,
[20:12]I will have that argument.
[20:13]That's appropriate.
[20:14]But I gotta say, I spoke on 27 college campuses
[20:18]and I wasn't seeing a lot of facts or arguments.
[20:20]I was seeing a lot of very ugly name-calling.
[20:23]And I think it was so confusing for these poor students
[20:26]who were only taught about Holocaust antisemitism, right?
[20:29]So they're like, well, there are no Nazis here.
[20:31]So I guess it's not antisemitism.
[20:33]And I would have to tell them, you know, sweetheart,
[20:36]you've just told me that I can't wear an Israel t-shirt
[20:38]on campus.
[20:39]If one of your black classmates said,
[20:40]oh, it's okay here, but I can't wear my BLM t-shirt.
[20:43]I'll get totally harassed and ostracized.
[20:45]I hope you would feel comfortable saying that's racism
[20:47]because that's racism.
[20:49]Or if one of your career classmates
[20:50]can't wear their pride flag t-shirt
[20:52]because they say, well, you know,
[20:53]it's fine for career students
[20:54]by I can't wear my pride flag t-shirt.
[20:56]I hope you would say, no, sorry,
[20:58]that's homophobia.
[20:59]You know, when the majority is telling a minority
[21:01]how to live out and express their identity,
[21:04]we've got a real problem.
[21:05]And I would really hope if one of your Chinese
[21:07]American classmates was being harassed
[21:08]because China is interning a million Muslim Wickers right now
[21:11]and committing horrific human rights abuses,
[21:14]I hope you would say, wow, that is racism.
[21:16]And I stand firmly against that.
[21:18]You know, it's so easy for us to see things clearly
[21:21]when it's any other group.
[21:22]And I think it's time for us to really start seeing clearly
[21:25]when it's Jews.
[21:26]So leave us with some hope here.
[21:30]I need to have some dose of hope.
[21:32]Oh, I'm so, I swear, where is the hope?
[21:34]Okay, two things.
[21:36]Number one, you know, speaking on so many college campuses,
[21:39]the Jewish students who I met at all of these Hillels,
[21:42]they were so thoughtful and nuanced and careful.
[21:45]And they were marshalling facts and making arguments
[21:48]and correcting each other.
[21:49]And I just thought like, wait,
[21:50]so many of your classmates are outside
[21:52]just screaming slogans, like, what's happening here?
[21:54]And I realized that, you know, unfortunately
[21:57]because they're constantly challenged, doubted,
[22:00]insulted by their classmates,
[22:01]they've really learned to defend themselves.
[22:03]They've really learned to make arguments,
[22:05]to martial facts.
[22:06]They've really thought very, very carefully
[22:08]about their opinions.
[22:09]They don't have these sort of poorly thought out opinions.
[22:11]They've really had to think because they're constantly challenged.
[22:14]And unfortunately, I think a lot of their classmates aren't.
[22:17]And, you know, that does not mean this is okay.
[22:19]It is not okay at all.
[22:21]But I'm seeing these Jewish students
[22:23]really engage in some resilience
[22:25]and some that, you know, they're strong, they're thoughtful.
[22:29]They make me feel quite hopeful about the Jewish future.
[22:32]And what also makes this hopeful are wisdom.
[22:34]You know, I'm looking at, you know,
[22:37]people always say that there's this old anti-Semitic idea
[22:39]that, you know, Judaism is a religion of law.
[22:41]It's legalistic and nitpicky.
[22:43]Christianity is about love and grace.
[22:45]That's not true.
[22:46]If you actually studied Jewish law,
[22:48]it articulates such a high barf for love.
[22:51]And it does that by being in the weeds.
[22:53]You know, when it tells you, if you go into a store
[22:55]and you have no intention of buying something,
[22:58]then don't ask the shopkeeper the price of an item
[23:00]because you're just wasting their time.
[23:02]Or when Jewish law tells you,
[23:03]if you've loan money to someone who's struggling
[23:05]and you see them a few weeks later
[23:07]and you know they still can't afford to repay you,
[23:10]don't run into them.
[23:11]Actually walk the other way so you don't humiliate them.
[23:13]Now you could say, oh, so weedy.
[23:15]Why do you need these hyper-specific scenarios?
[23:17]Why can't you just say, help the poor, be nice to workers?
[23:21]And the reason is because Jewish law is trying to
[23:22]inculcate this exquisite sensitivity
[23:25]to the needs and humanity and dignity
[23:26]of every single person in your path.
[23:28]It's sort of pushing you to see them
[23:30]with all these little specific scenarios
[23:32]to really see them.
[23:33]It's like when the eye doctor clicks the vision machine
[23:35]and makes your vision crisper and crisper,
[23:37]that's what Jewish law, all of these,
[23:39]but what if this and what if that
[23:41]and what if this scenario,
[23:42]they're trying to make you really see this person
[23:44]and it is the exact opposite of this ugly,
[23:47]dividing people up into two crude dehumanizing categories
[23:50]of powerful powerless, oppressor oppressed
[23:53]and then hating and loving them accordingly.
[23:55]That's clicking the vision machine backwards
[23:57]and making everything blurry.
[23:58]So right here, this is just a small piece of Jewish wisdom
[24:01]that I think has so much to offer for our times
[24:03]and there is so much more.
[24:06]There is millions and billions of pages more
[24:08]where that came from.
[24:09]So I just feel really hopeful about the prospect
[24:12]of sharing this with people.
[24:13]I feel hopeful about the young people
[24:15]who are thoughtful and engaged
[24:17]and who I think can really receive this.
[24:19]And I do have some hope.
[24:21]Good, thanks much.
[24:24]Well, I have hope based on your book
[24:26]and obviously based on just how resilient
[24:29]and wonderful the Jewish people are.
[24:32]I mean, reading this and hearing about even some instances
[24:37]in history that like I had learned about
[24:39]but you wrote in more detail or reminded
[24:42]or put into context.
[24:43]And I was like, this is pretty amazing, you know?
[24:45]Like this is, we're not going anywhere.
[24:48]So we're not going anywhere.
[24:50]And you know what?
[24:51]We do terrible things like any other people, right?
[24:53]We are a people but our story, I'm proud of it.
[24:56]I'm proud of our story.
[24:58]And I think we still have wisdom to offer the world
[25:00]and I'm so excited for this tradition to keep talking.
[25:03]Well, thank you for taking the time to do this
[25:05]and for becoming a chaplain.
[25:06]That's like so amazingly nice.
[25:08]You just like breezed through that.
[25:10]I know you wrote it more about it in the book, thank goodness.
[25:12]But that was amazing.
[25:13]And I was like, oh, time to Google how to be a chaplain.
[25:16]But anyway, you would love it.
[25:17]It's a great, amazing experience.
[25:19]Anyway, thank you.
[25:20]And I know this will lead to so many interesting conversations.
[25:23]I can't wait to follow along and go to your events
[25:26]and just hear what comes out of it
[25:28]because it's so important right now.
[25:30]So thank you.
[25:31]Thank you so much, Zivi.
[25:33]Thank you.
[25:34]Thank you.
[25:35]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zivi.
[25:38]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[25:41]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[25:44]follow me on Instagram at Zivi Owens
[25:46]and spread the word.
[25:48]Thanks so much.
[25:49]Go and buy the books.