Eli Rallo, DOES ANYONE ELSE FEEL THIS WAY?: Essays on Conquering the Quarter-Life Crisis
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
[0:06]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[0:08]In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best-selling, buzziest, or underrated authors
[0:14]and story creators, whose work I think is worth your time.
[0:18]As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously a podcaster, I get a comprehensive
[0:24]look at everything that's coming up, and spend my time curating the best books so you
[0:29]you don't have to.
[0:30]Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests, like I do, every single
[0:35]day.
[0:36]For more information, go to zibimedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens.
[0:45]Eli Rallow is the author of Does Anyone Else Feel This Way?
[0:48]essays on conquering the quarter-life crisis.
[0:51]Eli is the author of, I didn't know I needed this, and an internet creator with massive
[0:55]followings on TikTok and Instagram.
[0:57]She is the founder of Pro's Hose Literary Salon, the previous host of the Miss Congeniality
[1:02]Podcast, and a graduate of Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, and the
[1:06]University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre, and Dance.
[1:10]When she isn't writing or TikTok, you can find her at piano bars in the village,
[1:13]building out show tunes.
[1:15]Welcome, Eli.
[1:16]Thank you so much for coming on to talk about Does Anyone Else Feel This Way?
[1:20]Congratulations.
[1:21]For having me.
[1:22]I really enjoyed your book.
[1:25]I wish I had had it when I was a little bit younger, not that I can't use it now, but
[1:28]I really could have used it a little bit during my own quarter-life crisis, if you will.
[1:34]Why don't you tell everybody what this book is about and how you decided to write a
[1:39]second one after the success of your first?
[1:42]Sure.
[1:43]So I would say this book is a 12 essays, and it really is, I would say, my love letter
[1:50]to sort of the chaos and the camaraderie and the craziness of being in your 20s,
[1:58]and sort of the isolation that you might experience or encounter.
[2:02]It speaks a lot to friendship and those types of relationships.
[2:07]The relationship you have to yourself, it speaks to career and social media and societal
[2:13]pressures, especially for young women.
[2:16]And to answer your second question, I definitely always knew I was going to continue to
[2:20]write books.
[2:21]I didn't know really what that was going to look like, and this one I had a podcast
[2:28]formerly called Miss Congeniality, and I had done an episode about being in your 20s,
[2:33]and it was very similar to this book, just in a really sort of diluted way, because it was
[2:40]only like 45 minutes long, and it was really just me expressing my feelings and anxieties
[2:46]about being in my 20s and what that felt like and what it looked like, and it was really
[2:50]well received.
[2:51]And so when we were trying to figure out what the next book would be, we thought, you
[2:55]know, that podcast episode was a great jumping off point.
[2:59]I think that the media that I create in various mediums is really interconnected.
[3:03]So it was kind of a happy accident, but also I think ever intentional as well, love
[3:11]it.
[3:12]Why don't you take listeners back?
[3:13]If they hadn't read your first book or they haven't heard of you or they're not following
[3:17]you yet, although I'm sure they will be after this.
[3:19]How you became who you are, how you started sharing publicly your story, the authenticity
[3:25]you bring to all of your struggles from eating and OCD to just all the phobias, all
[3:30]the stuff.
[3:31]When did you decide to start putting it all out there?
[3:34]Sure.
[3:35]So I've been on the internet for over five years now, which is crazy.
[3:38]I think it feels like the most interminable five years ever, but also look it went by in
[3:43]a split second.
[3:45]I graduated college in 2020, started posting online and then I went to grad school.
[3:49]So my audience, those who have been here since the beginning have really watched me in a
[3:54]lot of different eras as it were from college and grad school to then post grad.
[4:01]I worked a nine to five job for a bit and then inevitably started doing social media
[4:05]sort of full time.
[4:06]I left my nine to five job for a bunch of circumstances and was like actively searching
[4:11]for something else and social media was starting to pick up at the same time.
[4:15]So I was sort of supporting myself through that.
[4:18]And then I was writing a sub-stack blog, personal essays, I had about like 5,000 subscribers.
[4:24]My TikTok was growing pretty rapidly, I would say that's like maybe the second most rapid
[4:28]growth I've ever seen because different times have caused different spikes in my following,
[4:34]that I think took me from kind of one level to the next and my literary agents saw that
[4:40]and reached out to me and they were like, we think there's a book in all of this and we know
[4:44]you're a writer, we know that you want to write.
[4:47]And sort of the rest is history with that.
[4:49]I worked on my first book.
[4:51]I didn't know I needed this with them.
[4:52]It came out in December 2023 and I am so proud of it.
[4:57]It was such a special debut and I don't think there ever could have been another debut in
[5:03]me.
[5:04]I received that advice from a lot of authors who've walked before me that sort of like
[5:09]your first book is the only ever first book you could ever write which I love that advice.
[5:14]And from there I just kept doing social media.
[5:16]I actually never anticipated liking social media as much as I do.
[5:21]I always really was fascinated by social media but I always tell people I think it's
[5:25]from the perspective of having an audience which is why I really enjoyed it.
[5:29]It wasn't so much like I have obsessed with creating content at first.
[5:32]I really liked the idea of audience and community and sort of like that feedback loop
[5:36]and that like constant discourse cycle.
[5:40]And then I published my first book and at the time I thought, you know, I really want
[5:45]to be like just a writer and I kind of felt like I had to fit in a box in that way.
[5:50]And I kept doing social media and I kept writing and I kept realizing the strengths of
[5:54]having both and how much I enjoyed being in both communities and I think that kind
[5:58]of allowing myself to be honest with the fact that I really enjoyed being online the
[6:04]same way that I really enjoy being a writer.
[6:08]I kind of opened a door to just sort of like the deepest most authentic version of myself
[6:13]which I always was on the internet but I think I, you know, I've grown a lot in the
[6:17]last over five years.
[6:19]And who's to say if I continue at this volume of balancing both I definitely have lots
[6:24]of aspirations in the writing and entertainment space but I think social media is
[6:29]like the perfect sort of gateway drug into all of that.
[6:33]So it's been such a lovely time and that's a little bit of my history.
[6:38]And so what is the dream for the entertainment goals?
[6:41]Like if you could have snap your fingers, have anything.
[6:44]I want to be Tina Fey, okay, I'm gonna be so upfront with you.
[6:49]I say this all the time like she's probably like my biggest inspiration.
[6:54]I just find her, I mean not only so smart and poised but also so talented.
[6:59]I mean she's written books and I've read her books and she's written musicals and I
[7:04]love theater and she's written for TV and she's starred in TV and she's written movies
[7:08]and she's sort of done it all and I think, you know, I'm less of a comedic head than
[7:15]she sort of is but when I look at her career I'm quite inspired by the fact that she
[7:20]never let one medium limit her.
[7:22]She never let them stamp comedian on her forehead or screenwriter or filmmaker or actress
[7:30]or author.
[7:32]She sort of just allowed herself to soar in so many different spaces and I love just
[7:39]her story and I love her friendship with other entertainment popular faces like Amy
[7:45]Poehler.
[7:46]I just I just really admire her work and I have always seen myself writing for theater.
[7:51]I've always seen myself writing for television film and obviously continuing with the
[7:56]books so I just feel that the sky is sort of the limit and I would really regret not
[8:01]trying so that's sort of my path I think.
[8:04]Awesome.
[8:05]I just rewatched Mean Girls the other day have you seen that lately?
[8:08]I mean it's really it's truly brilliant and like at the time just everything like it's
[8:13]the perfect film from the perfect time but it's so timeless the writing is phenomenal
[8:18]like she's just a genius yeah she's a genius I wrote it I watched it with my 12 and
[8:24]10 year olds and then the next day we all watched it together the next day we were in
[8:27]the car and they started talking about another girl and I was like you guys we were just
[8:31]over this in the gym and mean girls out you can't be mean no I'm kidding they weren't
[8:37]really being mean but anyway have you reached out to Tina Fey we told her that she's
[8:41]the role model oh my gosh I haven't reached out but I met her once briefly and obviously
[8:47]told her she was a huge role model but no I haven't like actually connected with her I
[8:51]was right you you have to invite her to do an event on your tour I know seriously like
[8:55]what if we just called Tina up I loved now she's unreal like when I met her I was so
[9:01]starstruck she's so oh she's fabulous I see this in your future you have to have your
[9:06]team reach out to her team and you know I think you can get it can I read a little passage
[9:13]from when you were in grad school I'm sure from the book okay you wrote I often felt
[9:18]like I was losing at my sparkle in grad school like instead of finding myself I was losing
[9:22]touch with myself more and more it was sticky and emotional to hide from the reality of
[9:26]feeling unsure of myself simultaneously it was terrifying to wonder if I'd ever be sure of
[9:31]myself because I'd never heard anyone try to put these uncomfortable motions in towards
[9:35]before I'd never heard any other 22 year olds say I am so proud to admit I do not know
[9:41]what I want out of life I do not know who I am I do not feel like an adult and I don't
[9:45]know if I ever will I saw endless photos of perfect lives on Instagram and job update
[9:51]after job update unlinked it and then you go on to say how what you were seeing versus
[9:56]what you were feeling talk a little bit about that and how did you
[10:00]who managed to get your sparkle back.
[10:02]Sure, I think being 22 is like a death sentence.
[10:05]Like I seriously do think being 22 is like the craziest thing
[10:08]in the world.
[10:09]And I think what makes it crazier
[10:11]is that nobody prepares you for that feeling.
[10:14]Like when you are in high school,
[10:15]there's like all of this talk about higher education
[10:18]or if you're gonna go to trade school
[10:19]or if you're gonna go into the workforce,
[10:21]like your hand is being held.
[10:22]And then if you do go pursue higher education,
[10:25]your hand is being held.
[10:26]Like yes, you're in the real world.
[10:29]It's like a bubble college.
[10:31]And your hand is being held
[10:32]and community is being facilitated.
[10:34]And it's like, and this is what you're gonna do next.
[10:36]And this is what you're gonna do next.
[10:37]And then it's over and you're like, wait, what?
[10:39]Like it goes from like your hand is being held,
[10:43]the training wheels are on to,
[10:44]you're now riding a bike without training wheels.
[10:46]No one's ever taught you how to ride a bike.
[10:47]No one cares if you fall in good luck.
[10:49]And it sort of is the most startling feeling.
[10:53]And I used to think it was so like,
[10:58]I was the only person that felt that way
[11:00]because I think a lot of people that feel that way
[11:03]are like we have to mask it.
[11:05]And we have to pretend like this isn't how we feel
[11:07]because now we have all this freedom
[11:09]and we're making our own money
[11:10]and we're doing all of this.
[11:11]And I'm like, no, but that's not reality.
[11:13]This isn't reality.
[11:14]And I think it took just growing through it honestly,
[11:19]but also in the conceit of the book is sort of that
[11:23]there aren't answers.
[11:24]You'll never really feel like an adult.
[11:26]Like not even the adults feel like adults.
[11:28]It's impossible to feel like adults
[11:30]because that would sort of suggest
[11:32]that adult is a feeling.
[11:34]But rather, the only thing that really helps
[11:36]is reaching out to other people
[11:37]and being like does anyone else feel this way.
[11:39]And I think that once I got comfortable
[11:41]with the people in my life to a point
[11:43]where we were just sort of sharing in the misery,
[11:46]it was so much easier.
[11:48]And I realized like there is another side.
[11:50]And I think that like what compounds this is the fact
[11:54]that you're being told, especially as a woman
[11:56]that like you're in your prime,
[11:58]I have never felt frankly uglier on the inside and out
[12:03]than I did when I was 22.
[12:04]I'm 27 now.
[12:06]I just feel like I'm getting better.
[12:07]I feel like I've never looked better.
[12:08]I've never felt better.
[12:09]I feel so young.
[12:11]I feel so at the starting line.
[12:13]I feel like it's really seasoned one of my life.
[12:16]And it's so isolating to be told,
[12:18]like 22 is your glory days, the prime of your life.
[12:22]You're only getting uglier, older, fatter,
[12:24]like saggy or all these things.
[12:26]When you're like 22, that's baby, baby, baby.
[12:29]And I just, I still feel like a baby.
[12:31]And I just, I'm so glad to not be 22.
[12:34]And I wanted to write this for people who are
[12:37]in those periods of life.
[12:38]And the other thing that I learned in writing this
[12:40]was that they're gonna come back.
[12:41]Like you're gonna have times where you're like,
[12:43]what is going on when you're 45.
[12:46]Like in speaking to people and connecting with them,
[12:48]I've realized that these tips of emotions don't go away.
[12:51]They're not actually contingent on being 22,
[12:54]but they'll definitely be there when you're 22.
[12:56]I think they kind of spark at 22.
[12:59]So I would say growing through it,
[13:00]talking to people, reaching out and just allowing myself
[13:03]to live my life for me and recognizing like how in control
[13:08]I am, even when things are so out of my control,
[13:10]was really helpful.
[13:12]I hope that answers your question.
[13:13]It does.
[13:14]And let me just say from the advantage of being 49 years old
[13:18]that 22 is not the peak.
[13:21]It really isn't.
[13:22]And it's gonna get better and better.
[13:24]And even 27, I mean, not to sound,
[13:27]you know, like older and wiser or whatever.
[13:30]But I feel like my 40s were my best.
[13:33]So you just have so much in store.
[13:35]And nobody should even think that the 20s are the best
[13:39]because it's time to want them to be like,
[13:42]I don't like the idea that any time
[13:44]would be stamped with the idea of being best.
[13:47]Yeah, true.
[13:47]It sort of creates this like doomsday type of thing.
[13:50]Like why would you even want to like continue on
[13:52]if it's just that worse?
[13:54]It's just terrible.
[13:55]Good luck.
[13:56]Good luck.
[14:00]Yeah, the worst, the most depressing outlook on life
[14:03]pretty much ever.
[14:04]But it is good because people when they're in it,
[14:06]they can't necessarily see it.
[14:08]So a book like yours is super helpful
[14:09]when it's feeling like things should be all rosy
[14:11]and realizing that it's not always all great.
[14:15]And everybody has insecurities and doubt.
[14:18]And it's no surprise really given
[14:20]that everything is in flux in your 20s.
[14:23]I mean, nothing is set when you're older,
[14:25]not that it has to be set.
[14:26]But I mean, really, like you could be living anywhere,
[14:29]you could marry anyone, you could have kids or not,
[14:32]you could have this job or that job.
[14:34]I mean, it's really like, it's crazy.
[14:36]Yeah.
[14:37]Anyway, just commiserating on that for you.
[14:40]You shared in the book about using this app called
[14:45]LooZed and you're sort of binging and restricting
[14:49]and all of the stuff that went on when you were younger
[14:53]and how you've sort of made your way through that.
[14:55]And I'm wondering, given that you have this big audience,
[14:59]how do you feel like what is your level of responsibility
[15:02]do you feel like to what do you want people
[15:05]to know about their bodies, your body, your relationship to food?
[15:08]I mean, it's a lot of responsibility.
[15:11]It's a lot of responsibility and I'm very careful
[15:15]with the responsibility.
[15:16]I think I pride myself on, I haven't always been perfect.
[15:20]I think when you post as much as I do,
[15:22]like things could trigger someone
[15:25]and I'm always wanting to be hyper aware of that
[15:28]and walk the line of being open.
[15:30]And as honest as possible, but also recognizing
[15:32]like people's triggers and where they might feel
[15:35]some type of way about something.
[15:38]So I definitely do my best to be really,
[15:41]really careful with the responsibility.
[15:43]I would say I don't speak that often
[15:48]about my own relationship to food
[15:53]as it relates to like my eating disorder
[15:55]that I had in the past.
[15:56]Just because I think that something
[15:59]that's so scary on the internet is the idea
[16:01]that doctors aren't to be trusted
[16:04]and there's all of this medical misinformation
[16:07]in this rise of conservatism on the internet
[16:11]and all these young girls going off birth control
[16:14]based on no scientific evidence.
[16:16]And it just makes me really scared
[16:20]that people are going to like distrust science,
[16:23]which I think is like part one of sort of like
[16:26]the right radicalizing young women the same way
[16:28]that they galvanized young men.
[16:30]I think it's like how they're getting to us.
[16:32]And so I try to be so upfront about the fact
[16:36]that when you have an eating disorder,
[16:39]that is like a medical diagnosis.
[16:41]That is something that you deserve to be
[16:44]with medical professionals treating you,
[16:46]depending on the severity of your situation
[16:49]and sort of what types of treatment that you'll need,
[16:52]you need to be seeking out professional help,
[16:55]whether that's a therapist or inpatient or outpatient,
[16:57]again, depending on the severity of your situation.
[16:59]And even often medical help.
[17:01]And I think that there's a lot of people on the internet
[17:04]who believe that because they've had
[17:06]an eating disorder or have struggled with disorder eating,
[17:09]that gives them the agency to speak about it
[17:11]in a place to give advice.
[17:13]And that terrifies me frankly because having an experience
[17:16]of something does not make you just automatically
[17:18]an expert in it, especially when it's something
[17:21]as precarious as eating disorders,
[17:22]which are which kill people.
[17:25]They're not like they're not like something
[17:26]we can fling around as an insult.
[17:28]They're not something to be taken lightly.
[17:30]So I always when I do speak about it,
[17:33]I'm coming from place of like please seek out professional help,
[17:35]please seek out medical help.
[17:36]And I think it's wonderful when people share their experience online
[17:39]because it can implore other people to reflect
[17:42]on their own experiences or even potentially go
[17:45]and get that medical help and professional help.
[17:48]But I do think we need to be so careful
[17:50]because I just think it gets to a really muddy place
[17:54]with a lot of different nuances and circumstances
[17:57]and we're talking about people's lives here.
[18:00]I just don't take that very lightly.
[18:01]It's the same way I feel about the young girls
[18:04]on TikTok and Instagram sharing
[18:06]that they've gone off birth control.
[18:08]I believe that you should have your individual experience
[18:11]of going off birth control.
[18:12]And I don't think birth control is perfect.
[18:14]But the more stories that we place into the zeitgeist
[18:18]about going off birth control to impressionable young audiences
[18:21]in a post-rovey-weight world with no medical backing,
[18:25]no scientific backing.
[18:26]Oftentimes the stats they're throwing off aren't proven,
[18:30]haven't been researched, haven't been studied.
[18:33]It's like terrifying.
[18:34]Did we forget that birth control is like
[18:36]the largest feminist breakthrough of our time?
[18:38]Did we forget that?
[18:39]After birth control was widely available to people,
[18:43]the rate of women in college and working jobs like doubled.
[18:47]I just am so cautious about that.
[18:50]It just really scares me.
[18:52]And I think that when you're talking about anything
[18:54]medical, including eating problems,
[18:57]you just have to be careful.
[18:58]And I would say that like my slight drawback
[19:02]in speaking about my own experiences
[19:03]is because I just understand how scary it can be
[19:07]to watch other people online kind of influence people
[19:11]in a direction I find to be unhelpful.
[19:14]And I think that in writing the chapter
[19:17]that mostly discusses eating disorders in the book,
[19:20]I also wanted to be really careful.
[19:22]It's definitely the most honestly I've ever spoken about it.
[19:25]And obviously the chapter has a trigger warning.
[19:28]But I think I do a good job of not glossing over
[19:31]and dumbing it down, but still providing the most honest
[19:34]kind of analysis of my experience, I could.
[19:37]So I think it's a huge responsibility,
[19:39]but something that we have to be really careful with.
[19:42]I can't really appreciate the answer.
[19:45]Last question, what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[19:49]Oh my gosh.
[19:50]I write a chapter in this book that is one of my favorites
[19:54]about when I was in college and I wanted to be a writer.
[19:58]And I've wanted to be a writer since I was like,
[20:00]10 years old and about just being in my college writing classes and all of these like professionals
[20:06]would come in whether they were authors, essays, journalists and they would speak to us and it would
[20:11]be sort of kind of agonizing to sit there because it was like I'm never going to have that.
[20:18]I would always think to myself like how did you like what do you mean like you went here and there
[20:22]and this and that happened and I think what getting the things that I've wanted has caused me to
[20:28]realize is one, there's no one path that's frustrating but it's also freeing. If there was one
[20:35]path to do it like there is for medical school or law school and not just say that those are
[20:39]easier paths by any means whatsoever but you know if you want to be a lawyer here's what you do,
[20:43]if you want to be a doctor here's what you do, if you want to be a published author
[20:48]figure it out like it's not as, there's not as much of a clear cut road and I think that
[20:55]that can be frustrating but can also be freeing because there are so many ways in. I would say
[21:00]on like a actual tangible level network like put yourself in spaces like even if you're not in
[21:06]school anymore like in New York there are so many writing courses that you can take. I've taken a
[21:10]few of them. You can take writing classes online, you can network with editors, you can go to book
[21:16]events, you can get yourself involved in the publishing communities in your area and you can
[21:21]cold email people. You can write your manuscript and you can pitch and query agents and you can
[21:28]listen to podcasts upon podcast upon podcast of authors explaining how they did that same thing.
[21:33]You know there's a lot of resources out there. You might have to dig for them but they do exist.
[21:37]My book club prose hose, we do an author interview every month and I ask every single author how
[21:43]they went from idea to pub because I want people to hear how they did it because if you want to do it
[21:48]let me like put you in the room where it happens let's hear how someone else did it. You know so that
[21:53]would is what I would say in a tangible level and on like a not so tangible level I would say
[21:57]you just can't stop doing it. I can't really give you the reason why I never stopped doing it
[22:02]because there was so many nos like door slammed in my face for years. I in college I wrote
[22:08]incessantly like literally everything and I applied to everything and I submitted my writing
[22:13]everywhere. Every single journal every single writing contest every single award like whatever it
[22:19]was I wanted to be published. I was published by some like really really small zines and magazines
[22:24]and I took like unpaid internships what you shouldn't do but just to get clips like I kept going.
[22:30]I didn't know why I did it and it was almost like I felt like if I stopped I just couldn't stop.
[22:35]I was doing it anyway. Writing is not something I have to force myself to do. It's something
[22:38]that I've always just done like if I wasn't on deadline I would be writing who knows what I would
[22:43]do with it. Posted on the internet. Start a sub-stack blog like just don't stop. You just don't know.
[22:48]I had this editor at the New York Times come to my college newspaper and they give the advice
[22:53]to for everything you write write it like the New York Times is going to read it and they were
[22:59]basically saying like you just don't know who's going to see something. Like if you posted something
[23:03]on Instagram or if you posted something on Twitter you don't know like who's going to retweet that
[23:08]who knows someone here who knows someone they're like you just don't know. So stop selling yourself
[23:12]short. If you want to be a vocalist treat every audition like you're going to get the part. If you
[23:17]want to be anything if you want to be a chef treat every meal like like bone appetite or food.com or
[23:24]I don't know the big food Max. It marvellous work is needed. You know what I mean? Like you have to
[23:28]treat your work like that and of course not every piece is going to be good enough or at that level
[23:33]but if you're treating it like every single time the New York Times is going to read this that's
[23:38]what I would always tell myself in college just makes you better and I think I now really feel like
[23:44]I'm on the precipice of like 12 years of work and that can be like a crazy thing to look back on
[23:49]like all of these like trying versions of yourself but it makes so much sense now why I didn't stop
[23:55]and I think that's like the dumbest thing ever and it's like me exactly acting the same way the
[24:01]people that frustrated me in college act but I understand now why they acted that way and I'm glad
[24:06]that like a small part of me was delusional enough to listen to them amazing. All right Eli thank
[24:13]you so much congratulations and I know you have so much exciting stuff in store personally and
[24:18]everything and oh my gosh so just congrats. Thank you so much I really appreciate it. Okay thanks
[24:24]take care. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly mom's don't have time
[24:30]to read books if you loved the show tell a friend leave a review follow me on instagram at Zibi Owens
[24:37]and spread the word thanks so much oh and bye the books