Cas Holman, PLAYFUL: How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity
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[0:45]Cass Holman is the author of Playful, how Play shifts are thinking inspires connection
[0:49]and sparks creativity.
[0:51]Cass is the founder and chief designer of the toy company, Heroes Will Rise, and a
[0:55]former professor of industrial design at RISD.
[0:59]Cass travels the globe speaking about Playful learning, the design process, and the value
[1:03]of play in all aspects of life.
[1:05]She has shared her perspective in workshops and seminars with teams at Google, Nike, Lego
[1:10]Foundation, Disney Imagineering, and art museums around the world.
[1:14]Some of her designs include toys like Rigamajig and Gimo, as well as play experiences
[1:20]at the Highline and the Liberty Science Center.
[1:22]Cass lives in Brooklyn and designs from her studio in the Catskills, New York.
[1:26]Welcome, Cass.
[1:27]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked to talk about Playful, how Play shifts
[1:31]are thinking inspires connection and sparks creativity.
[1:35]Congrats.
[1:36]Thank you.
[1:37]Thank you so much.
[1:38]I'm really, really excited to have some of the ideas bestering out in the world.
[1:43]Awesome.
[1:44]I have to admit, and this is quite low brow of me, but I did watch grown-ups last night
[1:49]with my kids.
[1:50]I don't know if you've seen the Adam Sale, I really, which is all about getting back
[1:54]to play and skipping rocks on the surface and putting down devices and using nature to
[1:59]make forts and all of that stuff.
[2:00]So I had just read this book and then I watched that.
[2:03]And I was like, all right, the universe is pointing me towards more play is basically
[2:06]what I've done.
[2:07]Nice.
[2:08]I have to see that.
[2:09]That's funny.
[2:10]I was also just a couple of days ago skipping rocks with kid trying to, it's interesting
[2:14]trying to teach rock skipping.
[2:16]It's like, it's an odd, it's more of a body posture than any other type of skill, I think.
[2:22]it's like put your body in the right place and the rock will jump.
[2:25]I don't know.
[2:26]Yeah.
[2:27]I've never been particularly great at it, but anyway, that's an art form, but anyway,
[2:31]that's one type of play.
[2:32]Of course, you outline like 10 different types of play in the book and all of that.
[2:35]But tell listeners about your book, your work and your passion for play.
[2:40]Yeah.
[2:41]So actually, the book is for adults.
[2:43]Most of my work has been focused on children and creating and designing and advocating
[2:48]for free play for children, which is kind of play that is intuitively driven and child
[2:54]directed.
[2:55]So things that don't have a lot of right and wrong answers, things that kind of usually
[3:00]require the child show up and figure out what they want to do and how they want to do
[3:06]it.
[3:07]And it's often very collaborative and so my design work for over 20 years has been focused
[3:11]on that.
[3:12]And in the time that I was doing that, people were constantly asking me, what about adults?
[3:17]And I would kind of brush the question off in part because I kind of thought, well, I'm
[3:22]not really qualified for that, what we need is therapy, right?
[3:26]And then after a while, I kind of realized that not only do a lot of the same principles
[3:32]that I design with for children apply to adults, but in fact, I had quite a bit of experience
[3:36]working with adults as an industrial design professor and an art professor for over 10 years
[3:43]at RISD.
[3:44]I was faculty there working with young adults.
[3:48]And what I was doing in the classroom or the studio was create the conditions for them
[3:55]to feel safe in order to play, which is largely what art making and design and any creative
[4:01]work is, right?
[4:03]And so I partnered up with Lydia Dennworth, my collaborator in the book.
[4:09]And because I love a collaborator, for me, language and conversation is quite playful, ideas
[4:15]are playful.
[4:16]And so I had to really talk it through with someone and kind of figure out not only what
[4:22]is it that adults need and how can we inform that with science and with psychology and
[4:28]with whatever research we can find, but also how do we kind of like communicate that
[4:33]in the most effective and efficient way, right?
[4:35]How do we tell the story of why adults need to play and how to do it?
[4:40]And so yeah, it was really fun.
[4:43]And I think that we, I think we're onto something and kind of where we got with the different
[4:50]kind of principles, but also free place, specifically why that matters so much and why adults
[4:55]can really benefit from reconnecting with their free play.
[4:59]Amazing.
[5:00]And by just this context for people who don't know, you have been on Netflix talking
[5:05]about your design and the abstract, you did the high line, what are they called?
[5:10]Widget, magic.
[5:11]There's something great.
[5:12]I'm a jig.
[5:13]I'm a jig.
[5:14]I'm a jig and the high line.
[5:15]And just all these amazing projects for the greater good, right, that you're putting out
[5:21]into the world.
[5:22]And you have your, I guess, reasons or, you know, motivations, maybe I could, could I read
[5:27]a couple things?
[5:28]Oh, sure.
[5:29]Please.
[5:30]Yeah.
[5:31]Okay, you said, looking back, I can see my experience of those years and the context
[5:34]of society's expectations.
[5:36]On the one hand, it was a time of adventure fueled by curiosity.
[5:40]On the other hand, I had no idea what I was doing or wanted to do with my life.
[5:44]The guidance office in my high school had a filing cabinet containing folders about different
[5:48]possible jobs.
[5:49]I poured over the files to try to imagine myself in any of the jobs I found inside them.
[5:53]Accountants, Secretary of Veterinary and Dr. Nurse, not one of them inspired or excited
[5:58]me.
[5:59]They were also limiting.
[6:00]These are the only things I can do.
[6:01]These are my only options.
[6:03]We're encouraged to follow our passion except that following your passion doesn't always
[6:07]line up with following the rules and norms of adulthood.
[6:10]We let people follow their interests within the boundaries of understandable jobs.
[6:15]Okay, so take us from there to you today and how this happens that you became a play
[6:20]advocate and built your own job.
[6:23]Yeah.
[6:24]Yeah.
[6:25]And I think that was describing kind of my high school years and then even my early
[6:28]20s through my early 20s, they kind of continued adventuring around.
[6:32]I was a research assistant in the Galapagos Islands for a year and change.
[6:37]I was a chef for a very long time pastries and a breakfast cook like a short order cook.
[6:43]While I was an undergrad, I worked for a furniture company.
[6:46]So I adventured my way into what I do now and in a way all of it, I think informed how
[6:52]I do what I do.
[6:54]So yeah, I think that I think in particular the pace at which things change and always
[7:02]have, but now is particularly fast.
[7:05]We have no idea what jobs are going to, right?
[7:09]And I think less and less we're understanding people's work as jobs that's it's needing
[7:13]to be less tied to work or people I didn't are identifying more as having the life's work
[7:19]that may not be related to a job.
[7:22]For some people their lives work as their family, for some people their friendships or
[7:26]their community as their life's work.
[7:28]And then of course, you know, often we have to figure out how that might also support
[7:31]us or pay bills that maybe aren't related to that particular work, right?
[7:39]But so I think that increasingly there's a need to connect our play and what we've thought
[7:46]of as work.
[7:47]And I think there's an opportunity there that I was striving for without realizing it.
[7:52]But I was really trying to bring together the fact that I had a drive to be making art
[7:58]and having an impact on my people, the people around me and the bigger world, the kind
[8:04]of greater good as it were.
[8:06]And also the very real need to support myself.
[8:09]And I think I was like in my 30s when that kind of came together in the form of design,
[8:17]you know, growing up in rural California in the 80s, I did not know the design was the
[8:22]thing.
[8:23]So I'm grateful now that there's like a kind of a more of exposure of the way that
[8:27]people can live their lives and that everybody is more a little more aware and there's
[8:33]more accessible to realize like how many different ways we can live and be in the world.
[8:37]And I think that we'll continue to want people continue to want to bring together the kind
[8:43]of, you know, when I came up as a creative person, the most supportive thing my family
[8:49]ever did was say like, you know, this is, you'll make, you'll keep making art at night.
[8:54]But like here's the thing that'll give you a lot of time, right?
[8:57]Like my dad wanted me to be a firefighter because then I would have time off to make my art,
[9:02]you know, which felt really, really supportive.
[9:05]And also I was like, but we'll make our party where you're brought into burning buildings.
[9:11]Right?
[9:12]I was like, but my art could also be the job, you know, but I didn't know that.
[9:16]We were, I was trying to figure that out.
[9:18]So.
[9:19]Oh my gosh.
[9:20]Can I read just one more section?
[9:21]Sure.
[9:22]Yeah.
[9:23]Yeah.
[9:24]This is some of the principles and everything.
[9:25]Okay.
[9:26]So you were talking about your Netflix documentary series featured you in your work.
[9:29]You said, I'm very open about my own struggles and schools and to be seen and accepted
[9:33]for who I am after it aired.
[9:35]My inbox was flooded with messages.
[9:37]And later you say, I think my visible lack of regard for adult rules resonates with people.
[9:41]They get emotional telling me about it.
[9:44]And sometimes I get emotional listening, ignoring those norms is so natural for me now that
[9:48]I don't think about it much.
[9:50]But I've been known to cry when I hear from people who are struggling and I catch a glimpse
[9:53]of how oppressive it is, not to not be able to be yourself.
[9:57]Those messages in my inbox are a testament to that.
[10:00]And then you later say some messages are so full of pain and rejection, they are frankly
[10:04]heartbreaking.
[10:05]Play taps into our authentic selves, but those selves don't always align with the community.
[10:10]We find ourselves in.
[10:11]So talk a little bit about that.
[10:13]Yeah.
[10:14]And I had opportunity to also to invite some of these people to different events.
[10:18]This all the abstract aired right before the pandemic.
[10:22]So there was this little window where there were a lot of events where when people reached
[10:25]out and were nearby I'd say like, hey, I'm going to do a talk over here if you can
[10:29]come.
[10:30]So he did get to meet some of the people who reached out, which was really lovely.
[10:35]And you know, for many it was it was about that their children that their kids didn't
[10:40]fit in in school either because they were gender like non binary or just kind of gender
[10:45]weird or tomboys however they described it in their in their notes to me.
[10:50]And also often it was kind of parents who were worried that they're because their kids didn't
[10:55]fit in not just because of their gender, but maybe they were neuro divergent in ways that
[10:59]were understandable or easily readable.
[11:02]They were really concerned and something about seeing adhering for me made them feel
[11:07]like they either like understood their children differently or felt like reassured that
[11:11]their children would be able to find a way.
[11:13]So that felt really good.
[11:14]And then also from adults who kind of experienced similar things but never had language
[11:19]for it or had never heard something that resonated as clearly or as specifically with their
[11:24]experience.
[11:25]So that's been really nice that it kind of affirms the need to to share.
[11:31]And the other thing that that has come in quite a bit is just how much of a difference
[11:38]it makes when when people can kind of understand each other and and kind of watch something
[11:44]together together that gives them a platform or a language again to kind of talk about.
[11:48]So you know, I think most parents love their kids and and want to understand them but
[11:55]like understanding isn't essential in loving and respecting someone, right?
[11:59]But it's nice.
[12:00]It's like a nice to have but not a new to have.
[12:02]So I think that that that not just caregivers and kids but also kind of partners, it's
[12:09]that it's a new way in of understanding when you can play together.
[12:14]And so what I also hear from people is that it's it's given them another way to try
[12:21]to connect or that they'll play together and and kind of be more cognizant of what they're
[12:26]noticing in the meantime, right?
[12:27]Like being being being kind of self aware as you're playing, but also being open to what
[12:32]we can discover about each other while we're playing.
[12:35]I think it's just a whole new way of understanding someone that you might already love,
[12:40]but it is different to be able to understand.
[12:43]It's like how you're supposed to go on drives with people so you can like look forward
[12:47]and have the boundaries, you feel more comfortable sharing.
[12:51]That's like step one, then step two, go play, then you go to a whole new realm.
[12:57]Yeah.
[12:58]So tell me about why play is so important for adults as well and setting the conditions
[13:06]in your life so that play enters.
[13:08]Yeah, the three conditions that we've kind of trying to distill for an adult to kind
[13:14]of re-engage with free play are release judgment.
[13:18]That's a big one.
[13:19]One of the reasons that it's hard for us to play is that we fear judgment and I frame
[13:24]things as kind of we all have an adult voice and a play voice.
[13:27]I mean, of course, we have many we have a lot of input guiding us through our day.
[13:32]But I think we have a play voice who's a voice that says like, hey, look at that hill.
[13:37]Like wouldn't it be fun to go roll down that hill or like, ooh, a ball, do you just want
[13:41]to kind of bounce it or like, when you're in line at the grocery store, maybe a song
[13:46]comes on and you want to kind of dance around a little bit.
[13:49]And that's your play voice and your adult voice is the voice that says, no, you can't
[13:53]do that.
[13:54]Like you look silly or people won't take you seriously or your shirt will get dirty.
[13:59]You can't roll down a hill or people will laugh at you.
[14:02]And so your adult voice is trying to protect you from social rejection, of course.
[14:07]And I think that this all starts like during adolescence and during grade school where
[14:11]we're taught to not play.
[14:13]So I don't think that we necessarily forget to play or stop needing to play.
[14:19]I think it's that we learn to not play, right?
[14:23]But it's always, it's always there for us.
[14:25]It's always something that can be incredibly useful in connecting to ourselves and each
[14:28]other.
[14:29]It's just that we've, we've learned to not do it and really like embody that information
[14:35]that play is dangerous, play is misbehavior, play is, is not safe because of the need
[14:41]for social acceptance.
[14:43]So the, the first one is, is release judgment.
[14:46]The second one is to embrace possibility, which is the kind of, you know, moving with curiosity,
[14:52]like what might come and trying to be comfortable with whatever the outcome is, right?
[14:57]There's like opportunities everywhere.
[14:59]You just pick up a rock and find an animal or you take a different route through the
[15:04]the city and you discover a new park or a shop or something.
[15:08]And then the third one is reframing success.
[15:11]And that's where I think that one in particular with adults is tricky because we're very
[15:15]attached to success.
[15:18]I think it reassures us to know what we're doing and feel confident in, in whatever form
[15:24]of success.
[15:25]Maybe it's like we do the sport that we're kind of good at because we experience success
[15:30]and we're good at that.
[15:32]For at work, we might kind of tend to play it safe because we, we want to, you know, show
[15:37]that we're good and feel successful and that we're good at what we do and that makes us feel
[15:41]good, right?
[15:42]But if we reframe success and think of it not as, you know, getting the right answer every
[15:47]time or kind of playing it safe to, but, but if we think of success as being bold or
[15:52]being brave or trying something new or discovering something that no one else had thought
[15:57]of and, you know, which is also I think more likely in play because we embrace the potential
[16:03]for failure, right?
[16:05]So if we reframe success, then we get to kind of wind up in new places and experience
[16:10]new things which helps us grow, right?
[16:11]And growth also feels good.
[16:13]So if successes that we grow, we're much more likely to grow when we try new things that
[16:17]may or may not, you know, work out or we may or may not be good at.
[16:21]And so those are kind of the three tenants that we, that will help an adult kind of step
[16:26]into a playful space.
[16:28]I think it really helps to have a kid along.
[16:30]Like I feel like when I'm with my kids, I feel less stupid than perhaps I shouldn't say
[16:35]the word stupid, but I feel like when I play, the judgment is suspended because they
[16:40]are playing.
[16:41]But if I were just with friends, you know, I think about places like the color factor
[16:45]have you been there in New York?
[16:47]I think it's, it's really fun and it's all about like immersion and color and dance
[16:53]and it's like very playful for lack of a better word.
[16:57]Like I feel like you would fit in your mandate here.
[17:00]But if I were to go do that with like a group of people from high school or something
[17:04]versus my two of my kids, I feel like I, that judgment, it would be harder to suspend
[17:10]the judgment.
[17:11]So it's easy to put as a principle, but how do we actually do it unless we're all,
[17:15]we all decide to like not care.
[17:18]Do you know what I mean?
[17:19]Well, I think that's exactly it.
[17:20]I think the child, the child is the permission to play, right?
[17:25]So I'm assuming that part of this is about when you're either in public because there's
[17:29]a child with you.
[17:30]You feel like you won't be judged because it's like, yes, you're meant to be playing.
[17:33]There's a child or I'm playing for the child.
[17:35]It's not for me.
[17:36]I wouldn't play.
[17:37]But if you and your friends from high school are all on the same page and you say we
[17:41]need to play more, you know, and say you've all read the book, for example.
[17:45]And then you all say, let's do this.
[17:47]You are giving each other permission, right?
[17:49]I mean, I think we do this and places give you for permission, right?
[17:53]So in a way, like this color factor you've described, like that, the place is designated
[17:58]a safe place for play, right?
[18:01]Just by the social contract of public behavior, right?
[18:05]And so similarly, I think, you know, dance clubs are kind of similar thing, art studios.
[18:14]And so where do we get to kind of act weird, right?
[18:17]Parks, maybe certain music festivals and things like that, we get to like step out of what
[18:23]is typically known as normal behavior or acceptable public adult behavior.
[18:29]But that's a social contract is not real, you know?
[18:32]Like it's real and that it impacts our own thinking, right?
[18:37]But it's not actually real.
[18:39]You won't get in trouble for singing at the grocery store.
[18:42]And if someone gives you a look, that's about them, that's not about you, right?
[18:47]And they might be a little bit jealous to be honest.
[18:50]So I think that, yeah, that being with a child is the permission to play, that you can
[18:54]give to yourself and to your friends.
[18:57]And I actually recommend in the book, I recommend that you talk to your friends about that.
[19:03]One of the ways that I think adults typically play is through drinking.
[19:08]And you know, there's a number of ways that like it kind of is a shift in the social
[19:14]contract or like certain behavior becomes more acceptable when you're in those types
[19:18]of spaces and without condoning that, because I think there's something there if there's
[19:25]so many of us that do that and need it.
[19:28]But I'm also trying to figure out like how can we get there without it, right?
[19:31]Like what is it that makes it work in a similar way that like what is it about you being
[19:37]with your child that makes you feel like you can play and how can we recreate that for
[19:42]you so that you'll be in your own play, right?
[19:45]Because I have a feeling when you're with your child, you kind of are playing their play,
[19:50]right?
[19:51]And what would it look like for you to be playing your own play, which is probably pretty
[19:55]different since you're developmentally at a different stage of life than your child?
[20:00]I don't know, but don't judge yourself if your kid's play isn't super fulfilling to you other than connecting with your child like that isn't and it's a fulfilling but also you might be getting something else out of play if it were your own play, which, you know, could look like rearranging the living room.
[20:22]I think for many like my sister's play was in books, she loved reading, you know her imagination would play Lydia my co writer and I are our language was really playful so we would kind of rearrange words to play with like what does it mean when we do this or how does it change the, you know, I think poetry is like a playful playful language so there's all kinds of way that ways that play, you know, we can kind of be more playful in our thinking like it's not as literal as I think people think of play
[20:52]like big gestures, clowns, which yes and also, you know, imagination is play. I talk about a one form of adult play is attention play when we're watching people on the subway or when we're bird watching, you know, like I think a lot of these, those are ways of play even like meditation in certain ways can be quite playful and we're kind of looking inward and being curious and like exploring.
[21:22]just talking to you this is so fun for me. Okay, so what is next you have the book you have your whole life's work where where do you take this from here. Who boy yeah well. So my design I have a design practice I design things. I have a few toys and and play spaces that I'm working with a couple different museums that I'm still working.
[21:52]in the future that are opening in the future and those are little like they were longer timelines than most because I'm doing so much like thinking about and and working on trying to catapult the book into the world. And I also have been kind of looking for more opportunities to work with adults and play, which is interesting. I don't, you know, as a designer of course I love designing things that I always I approach things from a design perspective.
[22:22]and this is kind of why I wrote a book I don't think adults need like more toys or the perfect space, you know, there could we could use some better spaces for us to play in. But I think it's much more of a mind shift, you know, I think it's more of a perspective shift and much more of a way of approaching how we live our lives that will help us play more than another product.
[22:52]we're good and and so I really think it's like the the work is with each other and with ourselves. So that said I've been I've been looking for more and finding more opportunities to work with adults is kind of adult summer camps sorts of things. Yeah workshops that I do and those are really fun and and fascinating and I help me connect with adults, you know, I like I said when when people were first asking me like
[23:22]what about adults part of it was also like I think I relate to children more I like people in general whether they're five or 50. But I really children make more sense to me than adults do. And I think in in the process of writing the book and talking to adults more about their play I realize like okay there's still something there like people still want this. We just are really out of practice and kind of
[23:52]awkward and a little bit I think of afraid like it's vulnerable playing is is a vulnerable state. And and and like I said like adults tend to be a little bit afraid of failure. For good reason we've had a lot of years of of experiencing things that hurt. So don't don't judge all of us five adults who don't want to play. Give up on adults as a category. Yeah. So I'm not I'm not I'm back and I'm in the game.
[24:22]So so yeah and intergenerational play I think is incredibly powerful. And so I've been doing some work around bringing together eight year olds and 80 year olds to see what can come of that and trying to create kind of a non hierarchical dynamic. Which is a challenge, you know, we I mean we step into roles when we're around people of different ages. So yeah, love is something like Disney.
[24:52]like what do you think of something like Disney World as play? Is it too structured? Is it as play for adults or what do you make? I mean I I think anywhere that that helps people step into a state where their imagination is engaged or their bodies or their like a state that's kind of not related to productivity. Or what we consider productive. I think is is a positive one. I prefer
[25:22]play opportunities that are more generative. Right. So a lot of the theme parks and and video games and are kind of I think of them as consumptive. Right. We we kind of sit back and say entertain me and we're like give me that I want it to be fun. I want it to be bold. I want it to be scared like. And I'm like we'll do that for yourself. Like what do you? Why do you? Why do you need somebody else to do that for you? Or like why are you expecting someone else? Like.
[25:52]How do you generate those experiences and those feelings? In and of yourself rather than kind of sitting back and like waiting to consume it that was like designed by someone else who has an idea of how you need to feel like you probably know how you feel. It's going to take a sec. Yeah. Jump in. Do it yourself. So I. Yeah. I think that like I said, like if it if it helps people step out of their normal daily routine and and have fun together. Great.
[26:22]So what if there's a way that you can do that that that you're generating together. Right. That you are participating in how it how it's done and what it feels like and how it got there and and you get to understand how to make yourself feel that way rather than needing to consume something that someone else has designed for you to make you feel a specific way. Totally get it. Amazing. Okay. Cass. Thank you so much for coming on to talk about.
[26:52]playful. Thank you for the book. The inspiration and the nudge that probably many of us need. So thank you. Oh, good. Thank you so much. All right. Take care. Bye. Thank you. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone. I have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend. Leave a review. Follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and by the books.