Nate Berkus, FOUNDATIONS: Timeless Design That Feels Personal
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked Live at the Whitby Hotel where I get to interview some of my favorite authors in front of you lovely people here in this wonderful crowd.
[0:11]Today I'm so excited to talk to Nate Burke, whose latest book is called Foundations. Welcome. Thanks for coming.
[0:18]Of course.
[0:19]Your book was so amazing. I got fabulous tips. I'm rethinking my entire apartment, not even kidding.
[0:26]I'm available.
[0:27]Are you?
[0:28]Yes.
[0:29]This is not a joke.
[0:30]I'm not.
[0:31]We have some dining room needs.
[0:32]Definitely serious.
[0:33]Okay. I also made the mistake of buying a couch, which is now floating in the middle of a room.
[0:37]And I don't know what to do.
[0:39]Okay.
[0:40]Okay.
[0:41]Anyway, I'm kidding. I mean, not really.
[0:43]But anyway.
[0:44]Okay. Tell everybody about Foundations.
[0:47]So Foundations was, I know everybody says it's a labor of love.
[0:52]It really wasn't a labor of love.
[0:54]Was not?
[0:55]Not at all.
[0:56]It became actually my favorite book of the three that I've written now.
[1:00]It became my favorite book because I realized very gratefully what an incredible team I've built around me for the last 25 years.
[1:08]And so everyone in my world just was like, yeah, no, absolutely. This is a really cool idea. What can we do to help?
[1:15]Which is not my experience with my first two books.
[1:18]But I went to the publisher to Doris Cooper, who's a very good friend and lost the bit on my first book when she worked at Clarkson Potter.
[1:26]And she and I really wanted to work together since for 20 years.
[1:31]And I said to her, I have this amazing idea.
[1:34]I want to write sort of a definitive design book based on 30 years of experience.
[1:40]I'm not a snob, so I'm going to speak really plainly.
[1:43]I'm going to, I want to make like 10 little books in a beautiful box or sold separately kind of like the Asulene like city guides.
[1:53]And I think this is such a cool idea because if you're renovating just a kitchen, then you can just give somebody the kitchen book as a housewarming president and they'll all be $15.
[2:02]And I think it's a really great idea.
[2:04]And Doris was like, that is a terrible idea.
[2:08]I'm going to tell you why no one can afford paper.
[2:11]And definitely we are not putting, you know, 20 covers on this idea.
[2:17]However, if you would like to write the book 30 years in, which is really what it is, then please by all means do that.
[2:24]And we'll just break it up section by section.
[2:27]So what foundations really represents is every mistake I've made along with everything I've learned.
[2:33]Back in the day pre-internet, when I started doing makeovers on TV, we would get a thousand questions a week on, on Oprah.com.
[2:42]And that's how we determined what the design makeover segments would be based on.
[2:47]And so I have such obviously fond memories of that time or not obviously, but they are very fond in case anyone was curious.
[2:55]And I remember going through sort of everything on my Instagram and every problem we've encountered and just making the decision to put all the right information in one place broken down so that if you are just renovating a bathroom, you go to that chapter.
[3:13]But it's been really interesting for me to say the things that I've come to believe over the last 30 years out loud.
[3:21]And I didn't want to create a fancy coffee table book for $150 that no one can afford that was all about me.
[3:28]I have the body of work, obviously, I've been doing this for a really long time.
[3:33]But I, that felt very self-serving and uninteresting and not useful.
[3:39]And so what I decided to do was take the entire body of photography and attach that to the lessons that those photographs represented.
[3:49]So that is foundation.
[3:50]I love it.
[3:51]And it's so user friendly.
[3:53]If you're not talking down to us, you're speaking with so much respect to the reader and saying, here's an example.
[4:00]This is my kid's room.
[4:02]You're giving us so much personal information too, which is lovely.
[4:05]Yeah, I mean, listen, my first two books were deeply personal.
[4:08]I talked about surviving the tsunami and losing my partner and somehow that got woven into a design book.
[4:13]And my first book, I had no idea what I was doing, but I was on Oprah, so you write a book.
[4:18]And I, you know, looking at this book, it was, it's a little bit anecdotal, but it really is all outward facing.
[4:26]It was just, I'm only going to share a story if it applies to how it made a home better or a project better or made someone happier when they're living in their home day-to-day.
[4:36]And I feel really good.
[4:38]You can tell.
[4:39]I'm like hitting the circuit.
[4:40]Here I am.
[4:41]I'm talking about it because for me, it's very much representative of a 30-year career in design that I, I've very grateful for still, but I earned this.
[4:50]You know, there's a lot of doors that open for a lot of people and I've worked really hard to be where I am.
[4:55]And you describe the doors and great.
[4:57]I do.
[4:58]I do.
[4:59]And the hinges and the hardware.
[5:00]Exactly.
[5:01]Everything else.
[5:02]So one thing I found really interesting is you said when you start working with new clients, yes, you go into the kitchen and check it out.
[5:09]But what you really want to look at is the closet.
[5:11]And you see how people feel about their clothes, what kind of clothes they wear and how that aligns typically with some piece of the styles of their homes.
[5:20]Talk a little bit about that.
[5:21]There's a direct connection between what we feel good in.
[5:24]That's tied into how trend diverse I am.
[5:27]Yes.
[5:28]I know those trends.
[5:29]I think they're designed to make us all feel really terrible and really inferior about what we don't have, which is obviously not a terrific way of moving through the world.
[5:38]So when I'm meeting somebody for the first time, I'm not looking to see if they're their closet is clean and I'm not in their underwear.
[5:45]Well, no, I figured.
[5:46]Yeah.
[5:47]But I don't think we'd be having the podcast.
[5:49]Yeah, right.
[5:50]The people's underwear.
[5:51]Yeah.
[5:52]It would be some day.
[5:53]Maybe.
[5:54]You never know.
[5:55]Never say never.
[5:56]But I would say that what the closet has always revealed to me is that we get taken in by all of this imagery and all of these ideas.
[6:04]And there's nothing really more intimidating than taking whatever money you've saved or have and making the decision to craft a home that represents you.
[6:14]And then as soon as you make that decision, you're moving or you're renting or you bought something or you're gutting something, it doesn't matter the scale.
[6:22]You're besieged with all this visual imagery that has nothing to do with you.
[6:28]You're like, you know, why all of a sudden you're like, Mexican pottery, this is going to be amazing.
[6:35]And you've never looked at it in your life.
[6:38]But you have a construction loan and you're like, I'm going to go for this.
[6:41]So no, the answer is no.
[6:44]And the reason to answer your question that I go through people's closets with them is that it's really important for me to see what patterns, what colors, what they feel really good about.
[6:56]What's your favorite dress or the summer, what's your favorite outfit you've ever worn in years ago, there was this book called the height of fashion, it was Lisa Eisner that wrote it.
[7:05]And it was, she asked everybody that was in the book to give her a photo of them when they felt they were at the height of fashion.
[7:12]And that's kind of what I'm doing because I want to know who you are at your best.
[7:17]When it doesn't matter who helped you with that.
[7:20]But also it's like fast fashion, you know.
[7:22]Like I don't care if I buy an ugly sweater and wear it once.
[7:26]Like I'll donate it.
[7:27]Like, but if it's a sofa, I'm in a really bad mood.
[7:30]Yeah.
[7:31]I mean, I wouldn't buy like a bright sofa either.
[7:35]Right.
[7:36]But I think that there's a, there's, that's a clue for me.
[7:39]People's heritage and their cultural background is a really important factor too.
[7:44]I mean, I think it's really important for me that would be really confusing for me for you because I've read every book that you've ever written.
[7:48]But it's just, it's interesting because you know, I think that our homes should represent not only who we are, but who we've been and who also who we aspire to be.
[7:58]We have to leave room for that.
[8:00]And so what's, what's important for me is to really understand kind of how to embrace somebody as a 360 degree viewpoint, their whole kind of being, including their history as well.
[8:13]And I love all the photos that you have in there.
[8:15]People's grandparents and like antique frames and all that.
[8:19]And it made me think like I should really dig and take all my grandmother's recipe cards and put them on the wall.
[8:24]Totally.
[8:25]Like you say that the home should reflect more than the things in it.
[8:30]Like it has to show more about the person.
[8:32]It can't just be aesthetically pleasing enough to have soul.
[8:36]Well, it's just, it's just not interesting.
[8:39]You know, an interior isn't interesting.
[8:41]We've all been in the homes of really rich people that spend everything and hired the hottest decorator in the town or whatever.
[8:48]And you walk through the space and you're like, yeah, it's lovely.
[8:52]But I could be in the four seasons Toronto or I could be, you know, anywhere else in the world.
[8:58]And there's nothing here that is giving me any cue as to who this person is and what makes them tick.
[9:06]And, you know, I started saying your home should tell your story.
[9:09]Like on my bar mitzvah.
[9:11]This was a really long time ago.
[9:13]So now it's like every brand.
[9:16]It's like your home should tell your story by this washing machine.
[9:19]Like it has now.
[9:21]I'm not sure how that became such a huge thing.
[9:24]But I've been saying it for 30 years.
[9:26]And for me, what that really means is that it's not about budget.
[9:31]It never has been.
[9:32]It's not about being at the top auction house or the finest anti-care in the world.
[9:37]It's always for me been about that weekend with your girlfriend where you're like, you know what?
[9:42]I'm going to buy that vase.
[9:43]I don't even know why I like it, but I'm going to have it.
[9:46]And then when it sits on your bookshelf or on that table in the corner of your family room,
[9:50]every time your eye lands on that, you remember that afternoon.
[9:53]And so for me, I have such a visual diary in our homes.
[9:57]When my eye lands on anything.
[10:00]I can tell you sort of who I was with,
[10:03]where I was, whether it was another country
[10:05]or some multi-dealer antique small in Ohio, it doesn't matter.
[10:09]But I remember all of that.
[10:11]And I really, that's why my husband thinks
[10:14]I'm like a fancy hoarder.
[10:16]Because he's always like, how can you possibly
[10:18]care so much about this rock?
[10:21]I'm like, because our son picked that up.
[10:25]And if you turn it over, we took a sharpie
[10:27]and wrote comporta on the back of it.
[10:29]Like, where do you want that to go in the garbage can?
[10:32]Have you lost your mind?
[10:34]So for me, it's about building a narrative.
[10:37]And it always has been about building a narrative.
[10:39]And I've been lucky enough to help other people translate
[10:42]that narrative into a tactile environment.
[10:45]Amazing.
[10:46]I remember going to Boston with my mom in high school.
[10:49]And there was this trash can, this painted trash can.
[10:52]She's like, we have to buy this.
[10:53]And she's like, every time we look at this trash can,
[10:55]we remember this mother-daughter trip we took.
[10:57]I know, and it's true.
[10:58]And I really don't have it.
[10:59]No.
[10:59]Where is it?
[11:01]Did Jeremiah make you throw it away?
[11:03]She had it, but then she moved.
[11:06]I don't know what she did with it.
[11:07]She kept it.
[11:08]I'll have to ask her.
[11:09]No, it's funny.
[11:10]I mean, I grew up with a mom who was an interior designer.
[11:12]Her taste was completely different than mine.
[11:14]I grew up in a French country home,
[11:16]filled with every color that I loathe.
[11:19]All these printed.
[11:21]Do you remember Pirdu?
[11:22]Oh, yeah.
[11:23]So, OK, so I had the Pirdu bag.
[11:26]Yeah, I mean, I would have thought it was a girl.
[11:29]But it was like every frame, every little box that tied
[11:34]in the corners was all over our home growing up.
[11:37]And I have an appreciation for that.
[11:39]But at the time, my mom taught me how to shop vintage.
[11:43]And I talk a lot about that in the book,
[11:44]because I talk a lot about the importance
[11:46]of bringing old things into a home, things that
[11:49]didn't belong to you, but have a patination
[11:52]and a story to tell on their own.
[11:54]And I don't believe that a room is ever done.
[11:56]When it's filled with new things, I feel like every room
[11:59]should feel assembled and layered over time.
[12:01]And the only way to achieve that quickly
[12:04]is to have a lot of vintage things.
[12:06]I love imperfections, all of those things.
[12:08]And so mom would go off and come back with some hideous
[12:13]Italian ceramic rooster and be so excited.
[12:17]This is Italian.
[12:18]It's amazing.
[12:19]And I'd be like, OK, mom, you definitely
[12:21]need another fruit bowl.
[12:22]And I would be in a case with the salesperson,
[12:26]with the key, trying to get that one tiny picture frame
[12:30]in bronze that I thought that still sits on my bookshelf today.
[12:34]So and I was probably 15.
[12:37]Wow.
[12:37]So did you sort of see this whole career of yours
[12:40]from a young age?
[12:41]Like did you want to be on TV like the whole thing?
[12:43]No, not at all.
[12:45]No, I wasn't strategic about it at all.
[12:47]In fact, I didn't know what I wanted to do.
[12:51]My mom never really encouraged it.
[12:55]I think she thought that that would make me gay, which
[12:58]we're literally to the party.
[13:03]But I think the way I came into design
[13:07]was a little bit different than a lot of my contemporaries.
[13:11]I started at an auction house in Chicago.
[13:14]And so I learned about the value of things
[13:16]on the secondary market.
[13:18]They say that the auction industry is fueled by three
[13:20]things, death, death, and divorce.
[13:23]And that's where all the stuff comes from.
[13:25]And so I would be in Chicago with, we
[13:29]called it like our Gucci Lovers, but no dental insurance
[13:32]stage of life.
[13:33]We were just like, well, these young people
[13:35]we thought were so cool.
[13:37]And none of us could pay, none of us could buy a hamburger.
[13:40]But we were very fancy with our ties and our jackets,
[13:43]with our gold buttons.
[13:44]And I would go in the auction house,
[13:46]and I would, these trucks would pull up of these estates.
[13:50]And it was our job to not unpack them,
[13:53]but catalog everything and write the description
[13:55]and do the research.
[13:57]And it was fascinating to me from a sociological standpoint
[14:01]seeing what people collected and what they lived with.
[14:04]Because most auction houses aren't like Christie's and Phillips
[14:07]and Sotheby's and things like that.
[14:08]They're little businesses with kids trying to figure it out.
[14:13]And you have to take everything.
[14:17]They might have one good painting.
[14:19]But you're selling their pots and pans in boxes.
[14:21]And they're called the box lot.
[14:23]So you have to catalog all of it and come up
[14:26]with the value of it.
[14:27]And I felt like I was being read a story,
[14:31]looking at what was coming out of the boxes, beautiful things,
[14:35]and then really strange things.
[14:37]But imagine our lives packed up and taped up
[14:42]and shipped off to be sold.
[14:44]That had a huge impact on me in terms of how I address
[14:48]and still address crafting interiors
[14:51]on behalf of other people.
[14:53]Fascinating.
[14:54]You talk about digging with your hands
[14:56]through metal door knobs and going through marble slabs.
[15:01]And it sounds like you are very in it on every assignment.
[15:05]Like you are hands on.
[15:06]Yeah, well, I love the hunt.
[15:09]That's the hard part.
[15:10]So when I see all these designers on Instagram,
[15:12]who are great editors of imagery,
[15:15]I know that they've never dug through the bins of hardware.
[15:19]And I know that they've never properly assembled a room
[15:22]and installed a room with scale and gotten it right
[15:26]and made the mistakes and learned from those mistakes,
[15:28]they, I just see these like beautiful feeds
[15:31]of all these beautiful interiors that that,
[15:34]and that's a talent, obviously,
[15:36]to be able to kind of call all of that imagery together
[15:39]and craft a point of view.
[15:41]But the hands-on part is what I love.
[15:44]I mean, I've never once landed anywhere in my life
[15:48]where I haven't like googled local flea market
[15:51]antique small local vintage area.
[15:55]Antiques area, like I am, my children are so tired of this.
[16:00]It's like, it's unbelievable.
[16:02]And I tried to bribe and now it, like I'm like,
[16:04]but you can pick something out
[16:05]and probably say, can we go to Sephora afterwards?
[16:08]And the answer is yes.
[16:10]Yes, you can paint your face
[16:13]and then we'll wash it off when we leave the house.
[16:16]She could go with my daughter too.
[16:17]Is it a temporary daughter?
[16:19]It's unbelievable.
[16:20]It's amazing.
[16:20]She's like, you really need a mask.
[16:22]I'm like, thanks.
[16:23]Yes.
[16:24]Going on Zibi's podcast.
[16:26]So they wander through and they're like,
[16:28]look, mom, wrinkle cream.
[16:29]Yeah.
[16:30]Do you like it?
[16:31]Thanks.
[16:32]Thank you.
[16:33]Anti-aging.
[16:34]Literally.
[16:34]Well, my husband's 13 years younger.
[16:36]So they're like, he doesn't need it,
[16:38]but you should get this.
[16:39]Yeah.
[16:40]Like, that's so exciting.
[16:42]My husband's younger too.
[16:43]We can, uh, commiserate that.
[16:45]Wow, let's, let's do that.
[16:49]On a more personal note,
[16:51]you've gone through so much in your life
[16:53]and you've spoken publicly about your horrific loss
[16:57]and being part of the tsunami.
[16:59]Can you talk a little bit about going through something
[17:03]that traumatic and finding your way out the other side?
[17:06]How do you do that?
[17:07]And can you maybe explain what your involvement was then?
[17:11]Yeah, of course.
[17:12]So what Libby's referring to is in,
[17:15]I survived the Indian Ocean tsunami.
[17:18]My partner, boyfriend at the time, did not.
[17:21]And so I came home alone back to Chicago
[17:24]where I was living and was to kind of set the scene
[17:29]for everybody I was on Oprah.
[17:30]I was launching a huge election
[17:34]with a store called Linens and Things.
[17:36]RIP, I was, I had a book coming out the first book
[17:41]for an end of it, shot the cover, the portrait of me.
[17:44]And I stepped back into a life that I no longer recognized
[17:47]after that.
[17:49]And so my big fear after that was that I was gonna be weird.
[17:54]And I kept saying to the grief counselor, I'm really worried.
[17:57]I'm, I don't think I can like function.
[17:59]Like every conversation was just not landing.
[18:03]I didn't really, I was so unable to participate
[18:07]in what we all go through day to day
[18:10]because nothing seemed important.
[18:12]And being at the time in a very public situation
[18:16]with a lot of businesses banking on me
[18:19]to be the sort of representative of their investments
[18:23]and the brand that I was building, I was terrified
[18:27]that I not only would not be able to do anything professionally,
[18:31]but I also just would like never get out of bed.
[18:34]So I smoked marble lights in my bed
[18:36]and my mom's friend Linda Nottle made chocolate chip cookies
[18:38]and I hit them by like that, that was my meal.
[18:40]I wouldn't could need anything else.
[18:42]But I had the great, great fortune of an incredibly supportive
[18:47]family and some really smart professional.
[18:50]The grief counselor that I worked with,
[18:52]we actually worked with children, not adults.
[18:56]And he came over to my apartment every day or a month.
[19:01]And I would, my parents were both there.
[19:03]They'd been divorced when I was two.
[19:05]My mom said she married my dad
[19:06]because all of her friends were getting nice dishes
[19:08]and she wanted them to.
[19:10]But they came back together to support me.
[19:13]And I discovered a part of myself
[19:17]that I would never trade.
[19:20]I would never, I don't think I could,
[19:22]I'm unrecognizable to myself before the tsunami.
[19:26]However, I've also now the decisions
[19:30]that I've made personally,
[19:31]I know are the right decisions for me.
[19:33]My marriage to Jeremiah,
[19:35]the decision of two children via surrogacy.
[19:38]You know, I feel so lucky that I got a second chance
[19:43]is really how I navigate through the world now.
[19:46]It's amazing.
[19:47]I'm so sorry that you went through all that
[19:49]but to turn it into something that helps other people
[19:52]and that gives life meaning.
[19:54]I feel like until you've had something bad happen,
[19:57]you don't know how good other things are.
[19:59]Yeah.
[20:00]I think that's definitely true.
[20:01]I also just didn't feel like it would be honoring
[20:03]his memory, Fernando's memory, for me to just give up.
[20:07]Because I was the guy, the sort of Jewish kid
[20:11]from the suburbs, we were in Sri Lanka.
[20:14]He was the surfer from South America,
[20:16]who would go camping with his older brothers
[20:19]and be in the wilderness in the Amazon for two weeks.
[20:23]I would go into the Amazon and it has met suit.
[20:27]Like I prefer nature viewed through glass.
[20:29]I don't understand any of that.
[20:31]And the fact that I came home and he didn't was,
[20:35]it had to mean something.
[20:36]And so I spent a long time searching for that meaning.
[20:39]And what I really realized, I think in the end,
[20:41]was that it didn't actually really mean anything,
[20:45]but what it meant to me was that I could honor his memory
[20:48]by going out there and living my life
[20:51]and being open to everything that life has to offer,
[20:55]including falling in love again,
[20:56]including doing everything that I have been able to do
[20:59]in the last 25 years.
[21:02]Oh, that's amazing.
[21:03]So how do you take your very unguarded,
[21:08]sort of open aware view of the way life really is
[21:13]and turn that into something more commercial
[21:16]when you need to?
[21:18]It's really easy for me, I'm not sure why.
[21:23]You know, I'm not particularly complicated.
[21:27]I like meeting people.
[21:29]I like, Jeremiah always says that I,
[21:32]and I think this has served me as a designer,
[21:34]but I always like to see people
[21:38]the way they wish to be perceived.
[21:40]So it could be my greatest asset
[21:42]or it could be my worst quality.
[21:45]I'm not sure I'll let you know someday
[21:47]if I ever figure that out.
[21:49]But I think the truth is that design
[21:52]is a little bit sociology, a little bit psychology.
[21:56]It's a little bit magic.
[21:58]You know, some people have the instinct
[22:00]and we all talk about who has the gift and who doesn't.
[22:04]I can't make myself, I can't make my kid's eggs.
[22:07]Like, I do, but they're like, oh, they do.
[22:10]I mean, they like throw them away.
[22:12]I'm like, this is so embarrassing.
[22:13]It's kind of-
[22:14]Well, they tell on me.
[22:15]Jeremiah will come back from a business trip
[22:17]and he'll be like, he made us eggs
[22:18]that taste like nothing.
[22:19]And he forced to see them and I'm like,
[22:21]you guys are fine.
[22:22]There's lots of problems in the world, guys.
[22:24]You're good to get to school.
[22:25]But yeah, I mean, I think that it's an alchemy too.
[22:30]There's also really honestly in this day and age
[22:33]when I started in this business,
[22:35]there was Martha Stewart was the queen.
[22:38]I was doing design on TV.
[22:40]Martha paved the way for all of us to start caring,
[22:43]not just about muffins, but about the tray
[22:46]that the muffins went on.
[22:47]That was revolutionary at the time.
[22:49]There wasn't like this massive landscape
[22:52]of social media and influencers
[22:53]and all this stuff that we live in now.
[22:56]And so, you know, to be a designer
[22:58]that was doing television makeovers was really rare with that.
[23:01]And HGTV was kind of in its infancy.
[23:03]It was about, wasn't about design.
[23:05]It kind of still isn't about design.
[23:07]It's about how fast and how inexpensively
[23:09]you can rip your house apart.
[23:11]But I, you know, it was a really interesting thing for me
[23:15]to now that the world continues to change.
[23:19]I think grace goes a long way.
[23:21]And I say to all of my partners in licensing
[23:24]or even clients or whatever.
[23:26]I'm like, I never want to be the guy
[23:28]that you see my name on your calendar that afternoon,
[23:31]especially all these people that work
[23:33]for like these big brands and companies.
[23:35]And you're like, oh God, this is gonna be a long day.
[23:38]You know, that's awful.
[23:39]Nobody would ever think that about you.
[23:40]Well, you never know.
[23:41]I mean, you know, you never know when you meet somebody
[23:43]and you've watched them on television
[23:45]or whatever if they're real asshole or not.
[23:47]No one knows that.
[23:48]And I think that, you know, what has been important to me
[23:51]and how I apply it to my career is that yes,
[23:55]I've learned a lot and I've learned a lot about myself
[23:57]and I've been through a lot, but we all have.
[24:00]And I'm really, I think, foundationally,
[24:02]I think we're all the same.
[24:03]I just have a talent in being able to craft an environment
[24:07]that makes that individuality sing.
[24:11]And that's what the book is about
[24:12]and that's what my career's been about
[24:14]and that's what I love doing.
[24:16]And I love that I still get to do it.
[24:18]Amazing.
[24:19]Well, foundation is fabulous.
[24:21]No surprise.
[24:22]You were like a munch and this was amazing.
[24:25]Thank you so much.
[24:25]Thank you so much.
[24:26]Thank you.
[24:29]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi
[24:32]formerly Momstone have time to read books.
[24:34]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[24:38]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[24:40]and spread the word.
[24:42]Thanks so much.
[24:43]Oh, and buy the books.