Julie Doar, THE GALLAGHER PLACE: A Novel

[1:29]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Julie Dorr is the author of The Gallagher Place, a novel. This is actually a book published by my publishing company, Zibby Publishing. So thanks to everybody on my team who whipped this novel into shape and everybody who's done so much to release it, market it, publish it, and make it the amazing, amazing novel that it is. By the way, it has gotten a starred review in Publishers Weekly, which is really awesome, and many other accolades that I will put in the comments or you can search on zippymedia.com, but this is amazing for a debut author. Okay. Julie Dorr is a writer and educator,

[2:51]Julie Doar: a former Starbucks barista. She grew up in the Hudson Valley and currently lives in Brooklyn where she teaches middle school English. This is her first novel. I hope you enjoy it. Julie, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Yay. Why don't you tell listeners and by the way, this is a book that Zippy Publishing is actually publishing. So tell listeners a little bit about your book. This is my debut novel. So I'm very excited. It's a murder mystery set in the Hudson Valley, Upstate New York. It really, I think explores mostly a family dynamic and the secrets families can keep from each other. The main character Marlo, when she was 16, her best friend vanished and that's kind of something that's haunted her into adulthood. And this story explores, it takes place over the course of a few weeks when the discovery of a body on her family's land in Upstate New York prompts her to really dig into her past and question her family, her friends, people she's never questioned before. So I think ultimately it's about reexamining your own memories.

[4:02]Zibby Owens: Now before we get more into the book, can we back up? Because you're a former Starbucks barista turned English teacher novelist. Take us back a little bit about how this whole thing happened.

[4:15]Julie Doar: So I always wanted to be a writer. After graduating college, I knew it. And I did a little bit of the corporate world. I was in sales for a time and I just thought I either need to write a novel or I guess this is my life. And I decided to work part time at Starbucks so I could have time to write. And I ended up being at Starbucks for four years. So I like to joke. I got my PhD in Starbucks. Any drink. I was actually very good at So making I was very fast. I'm sure everyone would have loved to see me behind the bar, but it was a long time and I was writing and working at Starbucks and for a long time that was it. It was a very private manuscript I was working on and I was revising it in private. And it's true. Everyone always said, publication is a very long process. And I have definitely found that to be true because it felt like it happened over the course of several years in very small steps. So I got an agent

[5:23]Zibby Owens: that took a long time and then he was sending it around. Wait, back up to you at Starbucks for Yes, a I just talked about So you were, like, what were your hours there? When were you writing? Like how did you fit all that in? How did you maintain inspiration for what you were doing? How did you structure the book? Was it always this book? Like give us more. Yes, I was an opener at Starbucks. So I was clocking in at 04:30.

[5:49]Julie Doar: Yeah. And doing the sort of first batches of coffee. And then I would get off around 1PM. So I would think, okay, that's a long hours in the afternoon to write. But when you wake up at 03:30AM, you wanna go to sleep at 5PM. So it was, it did take a lot of discipline and I found what worked best for me was just forcing myself to write something every day. This started, I always had the idea of a family finding a body and that stayed the same. Everything else it feels like changed but I was just writing in it every day for a period of time. And I remember finishing it and feeling like, okay, this is something. This is the first time I finished something that feels like it could. I know it's not there yet, but it's promising. And so then I went straight into revising it and trying to make it better getting whoever I could to read it. Co workers at Starbucks. I had one coworker. She was very enthusiastic. Not the best Starbucks barista but I loved her. But she was always down to read things I'd written and she did read this and she said she read it. And to me that was a compliment that she got to the end. That was kind of what I was looking for. Can people read it all the way through? I forget what feedback she gave. She had a lot of feedback actually but She's our next hire. Yes. And the revision process actually I think took longer than the writing process. Just trying to figure out the best way to tell the story.

[7:39]Zibby Owens: Wow. Okay. Let's go back to the dead body and you wanting to write about that. Did you ever find anything? Where did that come from? That came from my imagination.

[7:50]Julie Doar: I really growing up in Upstate New York, spent a lot of time outside and I really always believed I was about to find a dead body. I every my brothers used to make fun of me because we'd go on walks in the woods and that the whole time I'd be saying, I'm so scared. I'm so scared. I can't I can't walk any further. And they of course have no imagination. So they felt like they were like, there's nothing to be scared of. There's nothing out here. You're being so ridiculous. But I never did find anything but I really, it could have happened at any point. I was always making up scenarios. My brothers used to sort of sleep outside and stuff and I couldn't even do that. I was too scared to camp.

[8:36]Zibby Owens: Yeah, I once tried to camp sleeping bags in my backyard and I was like, no. Yes, didn't make it. Did not make it till 9PM I think. So the setting of the Hudson Valley is so perfect for this type of thing and woodsiness and you dive deep into all the different parts of the Hudson Valley from the people who come for the weekends versus people who are locals and have been there for generations and even the interactions between all those people. Can you talk a little bit about setting up that whole society and how it affects the main characters?

[9:08]Julie Doar: Yes. I think actually writing in a setting that's either a small town or rural gives you a lot of opportunity because everyone knows everyone. So there's a lot of ways to get information to characters simply by the characters asking, oh, what's going on with that neighbor? And then people in small communities often know that or there's old gossip they remember about someone's cousin. So growing up, I'd always felt that. I always felt like when I went to my brother's baseball games, there'd be parents of other of the players who knew my aunt somehow or had dated my aunt. Often, that was the case. How many people have you been updated? Let's just go into that. So I always loved that feeling of, Oh, people I may not know, know things about my family or they know the people's reputation. The teacher knows we knew my uncle back in the day. And my mom's family actually had a dairy farm in the area and were farmers. And when small dairy farmers mostly went out of business and they turned it into a farm stand. So I was always very aware of that longer history that my mom's family had. And I really wanted to depict that. Like the area was changing, lots of people in and out but somehow everyone knew everything because it was a smaller community.

[10:50]Zibby Owens: So within the context of this sort of close knit interconnected world, you have the disappearance of a young girl and how it affects one family in particular and really how it affects her best friend and how she comes to terms with that, how she always needs closure of course and is desperate for answers. Talk a little bit about that aspect of female friendship and what it does when someone who was there one minute suddenly vanishes.

[11:19]Julie Doar: Yeah. I think the friendship between the two girls is a very it always I always wanted to depict a girlhood friendship because to me, there's something that's very intimate and very complex about girlhood dynamics, especially the ages sort of 10, 11, 12, and then into teenage years. There's so much changing and there's so many emotions and you can either, you have sort of intense love for your friends, but also an intense envy at times. And I wanted to depict that. And I think kind of the tragedy of Marlo is the friend was taken from her before the friendship had run its course almost. So she was in the middle of it, this very complex life defining friendship and then it just stopped. And I think a huge part of what I and how I would think about Marla when I was writing about her as an adult was something stopped or something was stunted when she was 15 and this happened to her. She didn't learn something she was supposed to learn about growing up. And I really do think looking at my own life, friendships have played such an intense role and that's why I was drawn to write about that.

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[15:31]Zibby Owens: Do you have a friend that you would worry would disappear? What else do you worry about, Julie? Tell us.

[15:37]Julie Doar: I worry about I think I have worried a lot about, oh, it's so strange when you're so close with someone and then it either fades or years pass and you don't speak to them. I think about that a lot. I was very obsessed with that when I was a teenager actually. I think I moved when I was 12. So I always felt like, Oh, I feel there's this whole other life and I need to either keep in touch with it or not. And I had a lot of anguish about the right balance for that. So I think maybe that was part of this. I feel like I'm in therapy right now. Yeah. So

[16:18]Zibby Owens: Marlowe, speaking of therapy, Marlowe develops as a grown up, you know, some sort of maladaptive coping strategies which we hear about because there are multiple timelines and sort of back and forth in the book. Talk a little bit about that instead of the role of alcohol and the role of drowning out access to your feelings and just how she's processing. No judgment, just like how she decides to, how she finds a way through it. Yes.

[16:44]Julie Doar: Marlo, I think her drinking is a coping mechanism and it's also really defined by secrecy. She's never letting people know how much she's drinking. And I think the secrecy of it is what makes it so intense. And so almost like a simmering thing in the background that you know is going to explode because it's not just how much she's drinking. It's how she goes through a lot of ways to keep it secret. I had a lot of relatives who struggled with alcohol addiction. So I always was aware of the secrecy aspect being almost the most controlling aspect of it. I

[17:32]Zibby Owens: feel like the corrosiveness of secrets and how terrible they are and emotionally whatever it is you're hiding is the basis of like nine tenths of the books out there. Yes,

[17:47]Julie Doar: I would say so. I love a good secret in a book and in life too actually. Are there any you wanna air today? I don't know. Going live has me a little nervous. I do think there's something so thrilling about when you have this really good piece of information that you're sharing with someone and keeping it in a small group that can be fun. But the flip side of that, which I think is more in the book is the way when something's kept secret, it almost becomes worse and worse over time and when it comes out, it's just a rift or a huge betrayal.

[18:24]Zibby Owens: Well, are many layers of secrets in this book. That's the least of it almost. Yeah, true. But there's a long history of when a crime essentially happens, who knew what and who wants to tell who what and is there anything to tell? Is it a mystery? We can't give anything away. Of course. There are lots of twists and turns as we uncover along with Marlo what is known. There's a detective who is helping us dig deep and finding our way into the secrets. One thing that happens is the effect of this secret on her sibling relationships and her parents. I'm not surprised to hear you have brothers after reading this book. Talk a little bit about the three of them and how their relationships are defined and then the in laws coming in and all of that but going back to that time when you kind of idolize maybe some of the people in your family, what is that? What did this whole thing do to that delicate infrastructure

[19:20]Julie Doar: system? Yes, I always knew I was going to write something about sibling relationships. I think especially when I was started writing because I have two older brothers and one younger. So I'm a middle child which is maybe why I like secrets. But I think my brothers were very close in age and for a long time I defined myself based on who, based on them. Sort of how they, the role I played in the group because we were, it was just a group of us. It was basically a friend group and that is kind of comes to light in this book as well. It's not just siblings. They are their play companions in a way. So obviously it's fictionalized but I did I have an older brother who's sort of the inspiration for the older brother in this, in the way that oldest siblings, the way they take charge and the way they can sometimes control the narrative in a way that I always admired in my brother. I always thought it was so powerful that when he told a story, everyone listened to him. Everyone wanted to hear the story. Everyone laughed at his jokes. And then the younger brother in the book, I was always observant of my little brother and the way he would kind of mimic my older brothers. And I always thought it's so obvious what he's doing. He's just trying to be like them, but I think that's human nature. And I wanted to explore the way that can make you feel good, can make you feel like you know who you are, but it can also be difficult when you're changing because we all change as humans and maybe your siblings still see you as the role you were as a child. As

[21:10]Zibby Owens: we go into Thanksgiving, as we're filming this now, people are preparing to regress to their childhood personalities. So it's very, very common. And the book is not only about this family but it's also what happens to Marla's family in the aftermath, particularly her dad. It's also about the family across the way the history that they've had with some really terrible stuff. Talk a little bit about that.

[21:37]Julie Doar: So the Marlowe's family is this sort of almost storybook family. Did I say Marlowe's? Oh. I meant Nora's Yes. Her father. After Nora's disappearance, her family kind of falls apart. There's also a family of farmers who are neighbors in a way to Marlow's family. And I loved writing about them. I love observing the farmers I grew up with. My grandfather was a farmer and there was something so unique about him, about the way he moved, about the way he spoke, about the way he looked, just having been a farmer his whole life. He had a very distinct face that because he'd been in the sun his whole life and his body from hay bales. So I was just really loving writing about the farmers and it is very tragic what happened to them. But I think part of growing up around these aging men was this sadness, this deep love for the land, but a deep sadness and almost a feeling that it was slipping out of their fingers. I remember one of my editors, Jordan, we were talking about the Gallaghers, that's the name of the farmers. And he said, it feels like they're the last of their kind. And I really loved the way he put that. And I wanted to, I don't know, give an homage to that almost.

[23:10]Zibby Owens: Well, the book already is getting rave reviews. It was picked if you didn't know as the library reads Top Pick of December which means all the librarians in the country vote and this is the book. Crazy. Mean, it's amazing. In addition to getting a starred review in PW which is also amazing and very hard to do,

[23:34]Julie Doar: How do you feel about that? And what do you think it's what do you think it is? I don't I I still can't believe it. I just feel like I'm still pinching myself over a lot of it. Obviously, I feel so excited and honored. I did want this to be a page turner. That's always how I pictured it. I wanted people to stay up late at night reading it. And I hope that is what people are responding to this need to get to the end, to figure out what happened. And I hope it's as books always should offering kind of a escape into a different world for however many hours you read it.

[24:16]Zibby Owens: Is that what you look for in a book? Are you a big page turner

[24:21]Julie Doar: Oh, yes. Addict? Yes. I I think that's why I fell in love with murder mysteries and suspense and thriller in the first place. I I love a good plot twist. I never see a plot twist coming actually. I and I don't try to. I'm not the type to guess. I let it happen to me and I just think that's the best feeling. That's I'm a little embarrassed though by how bad I am at guessing plot twists. Like I would think that after reading so much, would be getting better, but I'm really not. I have seen so many movies or read so many books where someone else who was reading the same book said, oh, it was so obvious. It just ruined it for me. And I'll just think I did not even consider that. Yeah. Did not see it coming.

[25:04]Zibby Owens: I think I like it. I like the shock. Amazing. So are you writing anything now? Are you buying another book? Yes.

[25:14]Julie Doar: I am working on something. It's also a mystery centers around kind of a a body as we've been saying. Great. But it's I've been to a lot of weddings in the last few years and it's a wedding weekend situation and much more focused on relationships in your mid to late twenties and the feeling that sometimes an uneasy feeling of having a lot of different friends from different chapters of your life, all in one room and all maybe passing judgment, whispering comments about everyone's stage in life. So that's kind of the main theme. And what happens when there's now a tragedy in the midst of this and how do people react and who reverts back to which friendships is

[26:13]Zibby Owens: how I would describe it. Interesting. So as people finish the Gallagher place and all that, there are so many themes that you touch on from family and secrets to the evolution of society honestly and the uncontrollable turning of inventions and how they disrupt people's lives and you know, all of that and then how we cope with fear, how we cope with disappointment, how we cope with divided loyalties and anyway, are just so many things I could go on. When you think about the book though, what themes are most important or what do you want readers to really take away from it?

[26:55]Julie Doar: I think I really think of memory when I think of it. And I think of the dark side of memory, how memory can be lying to you and how sometimes you are never truly going to know what really happened because all you have is a memory that's been altered in some way. I would say that's the main thing I think of. Also

[27:23]Zibby Owens: to invoke fear and taking out the trash.

[27:26]Julie Doar: Nora disappears while taking out the trash. I was like, this is easy. I'll just never take the trash out of you. And that's why at Thanksgiving, I will not be taking out of my brother's knit.

[27:36]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Well, so exciting, Julie. We're Last so question. After working at Starbucks for four years, do you ever go back and what is your drink order?

[27:48]Julie Doar: I do not go back. I I I have trouble going back in because I instantly start thinking someone needs to wipe down that counter. They're making my drink wrong. I could do this faster. It's just almost like an allergic reaction. But if I do go back, I do like the shaken espresso, the brown sugar over ice with the oat milk. I've never had that. It's good, but baristas sometimes make it wrong. They weren't trained by me.

[28:20]Zibby Owens: But it's a good one. I feel like you might need some sort of high level management proficient. That's next. Well, I am a teacher so I am That's true. Managing their lives in a way. Yeah. Wait. Talk tell us a little bit more about your teaching and who are you teaching and what do you teach? I currently teach eighth grade English in Brooklyn.

[28:40]Julie Doar: I love it but 13 year olds are a very tough crowd. Oh, this has been a great crowd. I'm I'm not used to people laughing. Sure. I don't even tell jokes because they never think I'm funny but I do love teaching them. It's a great I get to talk about books and I get to talk about writing a lot. And so it's been a good post Starbucks job while this has all been happening. It feels very it's a nice it's been a nice balance to the book coming out to have

[29:11]Zibby Owens: spend all day talking about other books. Really? Well, I keep saying last question but okay. Last question. What advice do you give to your eighth grade students or to other aspiring authors now that you have been down the road of getting a book published?

[29:24]Julie Doar: I tell my students they struggle with run on sentences. So I tell them short sentences, write a short sentence. I also really do advise them, and I think this has helped a lot of them to steal from other writers, to read something good. Not the advice you thought.

[29:42]Zibby Owens: Plagiarize,

[29:43]Julie Doar: you guys. Just do it. Steal the style. Okay. Sort of. So because a lot of them will just kind of write and say, well, this is what I've written. I say, no. You can put style into it. You can have a humorous tone. You can have a more introspective tone. So I give them a lot of essays to study and to really try and elevate their writing to that level. And I think that helped me a lot when I was a young writer, really reading things that I loved and thinking, okay, what is it that I love about this? How can I sort of pick this apart and be this good in a way? Amazing.

[30:20]Zibby Owens: Well, Julie, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on Totally Booked. Thanks for trusting Zubi Penguin for your novel and yay. So excited. I am as well. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.