Emma Gannon, TABLE FOR ONE: A Modern Love Story

[1:37]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Emma Gannon is the author of Table for One, a Modern Love Story. This episode with Emma was filmed as part of our event series at The Core Club, a private club in New York where we do events with authors every month. And if you are part of our community and on the mailing lists and everything, you can always come. Anyway, Emma Gannon is the Sunday Times bestselling author of eight books, including Olive, her debut novel, which was nominated for the Dublin Literary Award. Her second novel, Table for One, is out now with Harper Collins. Her popular newsletter, The Hyphen, was one of the first in The UK to reach thousands of subscriptions on Substack. Enjoy. Welcome, Emma. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Bucked. Thank you so much. This is so exciting. I was saying that my debut novel, Olive, came out in the pandemic, So I did, like, loads of virtual events with people in The States. So this feels genuinely really meaningful. So thank you for being here. So, Emma, we're gonna talk about your new amazing book, which you've all gotten a copy of. It's called Table for One. I'm obsessed. Of course, now we have tables for lots of you in here. Before we get into this book, give everybody a little background of how you got into writing your career to date and how we got right here.

[3:30]Emma Gannon: Okay. So a whistle stop tour because it's as we you know, all of us have had many zigzags, I'm sure, in our careers. But for me, I started off in the early days in, like, advertising agencies when you just fall into a job and started copywriting and things like that. And then I started to blog when I was about 20. Just, you know, I watched a lot of films with people blogging. It was the time where people were starting to do that. I was just very curious about it. And when I worked in advertising, was talking to a lot of bloggers. And then, honestly, it just kind of went from there. I decided to take a massive pay cut in my mid twenties and go and work at quite like a lowly job at Conde Nast because I was like, if I'm gonna try and do this writing thing, I need to kind of put my ego aside and put my paycheck aside, I felt, at the time, to kind of really get into it. So that's what happened. And then I got an email out of the blue from someone at Penguin when I was about 26 saying, we love your blog. We know it's doing really well. And I got my first book deal at that time, which was called control alt delete based on the blog. And it was about being a 20 growing up on the Internet. During the time when it was, like, dial up and an actual monitor and boys and MSN and CDs. Like, it was I really wanted to write a kind of nostalgic millennial memoir. And then from there, I got more into sort of writing about business and self self help. So I wrote a book called The Multi Hyphen Method, which is about being, like, someone with many hyphens in your career because I was never I could never do this answer succinctly. I've done so many things. And then that became a bestseller, and then I had this just kinda whirlwind career, really. And then I started writing novels. I've probably missed out so much there, but that that's kind of, like, the beats for me, I think. And Emma has a fabulous substack, if you have not already subscribed to it, called the hyphen. The the Yes. The spin off of the control alt delete. We're just going through the keyboard, basically. But it's really fabulous, so you you all have to subscribe to that. Yeah. And, also, it's funny hearing you introduce this because I had a podcast for years as well, for, like, five years, and I would do similar things. And I interview other authors, and I really miss it, actually. But it was called control alt delete, and that was really fun. I interviewed a lot of people, and we did, like, a live podcast recording in Buckingham Palace, which was apparently the first podcast the queen had heard of. I was like, okay. That was cool in, like, 2018. But I felt and I this is I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else here, that I I had to choose, like, between writing novels and doing a podcast because fiction for me takes so much out of me, and I felt like I couldn't do multiple things at that point. Fiction is really hard. You can't, like, can't, like, do it in a crowded room and it's Yeah. I don't know. Anyway Not it. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Table for one. Tell everybody what this book is about. So I I've actually just finished writing another book, another a nonfiction, which is a very woo woo book about creativity. Like, I'm fully unleashing my, like, inner, like, Julia Cameron kind of, where do ideas come from? The the ether and the signals we receive. Like, I I truly believe this book is kind of my, like, subconscious energy. Like, I would ask for so many tables for one during my life. Like, this morning, even at the hotel, the the woman was like, table for one. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just like, the amount of times I say that word, I feel like it's turned into a book. But, yeah, I I, you know, also had a lot to, like, work through in this book. And anyone that's read it so far, you'll you'll know, but it's essentially a book about three different women of all different ages learning from each other how to be alone in life. So one is just out of fresh breakup. Another is like a Gen Z influencer who, you know, is like always talking about how amazing being alone is and always solo traveling. And then there's an older woman who is has always been unmarried and and happily single. And the three women are kind of trying to embrace singlehood in that way. And, yeah, I I I've been with my partner for fifteen years, and I've never really had that experience of being single, really. And I feel like I was living that fantasy out through this book, essentially.

[7:52]Zibby Owens: Like, idea of living alone. How does your partner feel that your fantasy is being by yourself?

[7:57]Emma Gannon: But I I have a theory that, like, a lot of women do fantasize about that.

[8:02]Zibby Owens: We won't do a show of hands, but they're raising them anyway, people in the audience here. That's funny. I mean, I when I was thinking about the book, it didn't occur to me that it was about being alone because I feel like so much of the book is about the support of other people. I mean, one of your characters goes through this horrific breakup, I feel like you have one of the all time great scenes. I feel like it's like a movie scene of friends just coming in and getting her out of bed and just like, literally, when you cannot function, what is the role? How do your friends come for come in for you? And that's exactly what they do. I feel like no matter what is happening, there is someone there for one of these people and often each other.

[8:46]Emma Gannon: Definitely. And I've and I definitely wanted this book to be about friendship and love and support and relationships because those are the most important things, like, in our lives. I'm at the end of my life, I'm I'm gonna be thinking about the people I love and my husband and my friends and stuff. But some of the most incredible times in my life have been also by myself. I went for a walk around Central Park yesterday and, like, could have cried because I was just like, I I feel really happy, and I'm on my own. But I think it's because, like, the two things play into each other. Like, the reason I'm happy and I can come to New York for ten days by myself is because I have friends in my WhatsApp group. It's because I can FaceTime my husband. It's it's you can be brave when you have really good relationships. And I think there is a narrative sometimes, like with my parents' generation, that you don't go away by yourself and leave your partner at home. You you don't it's selfish to go you know, and all that narrative. And I always push back on that. I I think being by yourself is really important.

[9:45]Zibby Owens: I mean, we can all leave. We could just leave her alone here. Sounds like that's maybe what I would want. When you structured the book, you have, like, multiple timelines and multiple characters. I mean, it's it's complex in its structure even though it flows just so beautifully. Talk a little bit about how you accomplished your goals, and did it always look like this when you started writing it or many other iterations?

[10:08]Emma Gannon: I I almost wanna block out the experience of writing this book. It was so hard and painful. Know that's like a really maybe a kind of not a fun answer. Like, I really wanna be like, yes. I just wrote it by a river and, you know, like, Colin Firth in what's that film? Bridget Jones. No. Yeah. Written Bridget Jones. No. It was it was horrific. Like, it took me four years. It's why I write my Substack, honestly, and my and my other things because I can then get that dopamine hit of, like, actually doing something because this was just so hard. Like, I I don't know how else to describe it. Like, so many drafts, So many times my editor would send me back notes that would make me really angry because she was right. And just a lot of solo trips going, trying to figure it out, a lot of train journeys. Like, writing a novel is really wrestling with something very hard. Like, it's just so many characters and so many storylines, so many timelines. I think that's why writing a novel is kind of one of the things that people really do put up there of, like, wow. That's really cool that you did that because, yeah, you you have to dedicate a lot of your life to it and, you know, curl up on a ball crying and and and be like, I can do this and pick yourself back up again. I'm not sporty, I don't run marathons and things like that, and I'll never climb a mountain. But, like, this is my version of kind of this is hard. Yeah. But do you do you take any enjoyment at all? There are other things you could do. You know what? I I asked myself that honestly. I was like, why did I do this? Partly because I had a two book deal with Hob Collins, and wrote the first one, which I did enjoy. So that was really fun. I took myself off to the seaside one weekend and just started writing and wrote, like, 10,000 words in a weekend, and it was so joyful. And I remember going to the shop and buying, like, some wine and some snacks. And the person at the checkout was like, oh, are you having a party tonight? And I was like, no. I'm alone in a in a hotel writing my novel. I didn't tell her that. But I just made it really fun. So I think I think and I I don't have kids, so I don't wanna make this analogy really. But, like, surely, like, some experiences are hard and some aren't as hard. Or, like, if you you know, different births are different. Like, different friendships are different. It's like, I think you are birthing something with a book. I know it's not the same, obviously, but it's some are harder than others. Some are easier than others, I think. Not just the births. The kids.

[12:32]Zibby Owens: Yeah.

[12:33]Emma Gannon: That's okay. You love them all the same. Yes. And

[12:36]Zibby Owens: you were now doing something so interesting, which is so these are traditionally published, Table for One. And now Emma is doing another book, and I'm so excited she brought me a copy because I've been, like, dying to read it, A Year of Nothing. This is her next book. And you have chosen to publish it with something company a called White Glove, which is a cure specially curated, high touch self publishing, essentially.

[13:03]Emma Gannon: You're taking the whole matter into your own hands, which is Yes. Really awesome. So talk a little bit about that. Yeah. So is everyone here sort of familiar with Substack? You you read on there and things. So in The UK, I feel like it's it's newer. Like, some people don't know as much about it. But, essentially, it's the revelation for writers. It's people are very, like, casual about it. And I'm like, no. This is absolutely huge. The fact that I can write something, and then someone pays me every month to receive my writing. So I don't need an agent taking a cut. I don't need a publisher printing anything. I I'm literally writing to people directly in their pockets, and it's a wonderful community. And it's it's honestly, like, one of my favorite things to do. I think if I had to choose between books and Substack, even though I don't think I'll ever have to choose, I would choose Substack at this point because I just love the freedom of being able to tell my stories without fighting for it to get on the shelves. So, yeah, this is an experiment. So A Year of Nothing is my memoir, and you'll see it's shorter. It's, like, 25,000 words. About a year I had in 2023 where I just was really burnt out, and I know that word is used so often for just, like, a little being a little bit tired that I was medically burnt out, which is still kind of, you know, not a very kinda clear word, but I was exhausted essentially, and I had really bad anxiety, and I just couldn't really do anything for a whole year. Thankfully, I had substandard and had other income streams, but I had to strip everything away. And it was really scary because I would always pride myself on being a, like, a really busy outgoing person, and I wasn't that for the year. But being a writer, it's amazing sort of material. You know, like, what is it like for someone to do nothing for a year? I mean, loads of cool stuff happened, but just quite mundane stuff. I got to know my local area better. I borrowed dogs. I went swimming for the first time in years. I you know, I've made some of my own clothes. Like, I just did all these crazy things that I would never have done before when my success was so out there in in, like, being validated. So I partnered with this agency called White Fox, and they I pay them an upfront fee, and then they do what I say. So it's just like, I want this cover. I want this font. I want this illustration. I would like it to come out on this date. I would like to do these events. And the whole thing has been really exciting, and I've loved it. And it comes out in January next year. So In The US as well? Yeah. So this is the amazing thing is, you know, IngramSpark. Mhmm. I mean, this is new to me, but, essentially, there's, like, a distribution channel that all of the big publishers use, and they all filter into Barnes and Noble and all of the others and all the ones in The UK. And, essentially, I, as a self published author, could just tap into those same channels. So A Year of Nothing is available across a 150 retailers, and it's print on demand, so I don't have any stock. And it's gonna be digital. I haven't got an audiobook at the moment, but how crazy is that that I can sell my book worldwide on my own? We'll see what happens. I I'm not trying to jump ship completely, but, yeah, I think that's cool. It's very cool. Very cool. Take us back to the burnout. What was happening before?

[16:24]Zibby Owens: When you look back, are you like, oh, if only I had stopped doing x, y, or z, maybe I wouldn't have reached this place. And what were some of the learnings? Because meanwhile, you were doing this book at the same time. So how what how did you get there, and how did you get out of it? I mean,

[16:42]Emma Gannon: I've been trying to do this, like, postmortem analysis on this burnout because I'm like, what was that? It was wild. It felt really like grief. It felt really like my chemistry was changing. It was like, I I mean, I just I don't know if we have the language actually to describe what it's like to go through transformation as humans. Like, we change all the time, and then sometimes it's like this u-turn happens where you're, like, totally different within a year. And it's like a metamorphosis, isn't it? Like, it's overused, but it's like the caterpillar into the butterfly thing. But to become the butterfly again, you have to go into your cocoon and be, like, completely melted down, and it's really uncomfortable. I think it was many things. Like, 2022 was a really big year. I think it was the year that everyone went back out into the world after the pandemic. I got married that year. Like, three of my best friends got married that year. What else? I guess. I I don't know. I mean, a few big I bought I moved how I I don't know. It it doesn't sound very important, but, like, a few things happened. And then, yeah, I just hit a wall and just had to stop. Those are, by the way, some of the most stressful things. They say like moving and marriage and they can it can be good things, but stress is stress on the body as well. So It is. I think I felt quite a lot of shame about, you know, I'd see some of my friends who were like lawyers and they're like flying around the world. And they've got five children, and they get up in the middle of the night. And it's like, they're not burnt out. And I think I had to really wrestle with the fact that, like, my tolerance level seemed, like, a lot lower than other people's, and I needed a lot of time to recharge. And I was so much more introverted than I thought. And, yeah, I think when I think in your thirties, you just have to become who you are. And I was like, oh, it's really annoying because it was better it was more fun, like, masking all of that and being like, I'll just go out into the world and do whatever I want. And then there comes a time where you're like, actually, your energy levels are saying this. So

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[20:52]Zibby Owens: I think what that teaches people is so important. I mean, who's to say we should all have the same energy levels at all the time or even in our own lives from week to week? I mean, that's not that's not a rule. It doesn't make you a less good person because you need to, like, take a nap or something. Obviously, this was not taking a nap. Yeah. No. But that's it. Because my parents and also my siblings are all really extroverted,

[21:15]Emma Gannon: and they have boundless energy. So me going off for a nap is like, what's wrong with you? And I've had to really I mean, all my friends now are kind of writers, and we're all very similar. And we've got a WhatsApp group, and someone's just like, off for a nap in my new pajamas. And I'm like, these are my people. Like, I why did I not find these people earlier? Because I think I was around a lot of people who would never own up to being tired ever, and that can be quite damaging, I think.

[21:44]Zibby Owens: Everybody here? Anybody here tired today? Should we all take a nap? Do a little shut eye. Tiring. Life is tired.

[21:51]Emma Gannon: It's exhausting. And writing can be an antidote, I think, for me. Like, people are like, how do you have time to write, and how do you fit it in? And they come at me with this, like, productivity mindset. And I'm like, no. No. No. Writing gives me energy. Writing tops me up. Like, I love I mean, I know I said this was really hard, but it it fills me up in a in a way that I yeah. I could the same with solitude. You know, being on my own writing is is a way of me processing the world, essentially.

[22:19]Zibby Owens: So you've had your blog that turned into Substack for so many years now. What does that process look like? Are you, like, in bed on your laptop in the middle of the night? Like, when are you doing it? Or are you sitting down regularly and doing it? Do you wait for inspiration to hit? How often do you do it? Like, what is what what are all your secrets?

[22:38]Emma Gannon: Well, with my Substack so I started that about three years ago, and it and it was I think it was big in The US probably. But in The UK, it was really small, and I was one of the first people on there to hit, I think it was, like, a thousand paid subscribers or something, which made, like, the news because it was like, oh my god. So that was really fun. And I think what it was was I just took the fun back into writing because I was burnt out, and I had nothing to lose because I was already bedridden and, you know, a bit of rock bottom situation. So was like, well, what have I got to lose? I'm just gonna blog whatever I want and see who who wants to read it. And then this is the funny magical thing about life is the minute you don't care anymore is the minute everyone's like, oh, I'm interested. So I just wrote for myself. I wrote about burnout. I wrote about all the books I was reading. I was re and I was writing very honestly because it was for a paid membership, so there's a paywall. So you know on Instagram where you you're like, who's looking at this? Like, who's lurking at me? It's it's I I find it really strange on Instagram because I'm like, I have no idea who's watching this. Whereas on Substack, it's like a room like this, I feel. It's a closed, intimate community. So I was very honest. So, yeah, I I just do what I want on there. I think what's really nice about Substack is it's not, for me anyway, it's not a transaction per, like, word count. People people aren't people aren't emailing me being like, where are my words? They are supportive, and they it's it's like a patronage. Like, I want you to keep working, so I'm going to support you, essentially.

[24:09]Zibby Owens: It's really nice. It is really nice. Oh my gosh. So in Table for One, you have the song Fast Car, which comes up many times, which is such a good song. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna be so thoughtful. And when Emma walks in, I'm gonna have Fast Car playing in the room, and she's gonna be like, oh my gosh. That's so sweet. But I didn't do that. But I'm just, like, bringing it up because I could have but didn't. Talk a little bit about some of the influences in this book, like music, like other books, like because you have a lot of that sprinkled throughout this, the pop culture references. You have your own startup Shutterbox. Shutterbox in here. You have, like, all of these external brands and songs and things in the story. Talk a little bit about that and being able to just make it all up or include real things when you want and how to balance all of that. Yeah. I mean, I think part of the reason I was struggling to write the novel at the beginning was

[25:04]Emma Gannon: I I didn't have enough to say. Like, I there's an there is an amount of life you have to live before you can write a book. And I think I didn't have anything to pull from because I was burnt out and slightly depressed. I wasn't reading books. I wasn't watching films. I think that is the biggest red flag for me is if I don't wanna read a book, something's really bad. I love reading, and I I get so much joy out of it. And I kind of have a theory that the more you input of good stuff, the more you can output the good stuff. You know, it's all about what you consume. And so during my year of nothing, actually, I read so much that I I love I remembered, like, music and songs that I loved. I remember ordering all the Jacqueline Wilson books from when I was a teenager and rereading, like, kids' books from my childhood, listening to Spotify playlist from, like, the nineties, just being really nostalgic. And I think if you're gonna write a novel, you I think you do have to be tapped into the culture around you and also the things you love, and then you kind of recycle it. Like, that's kind of how I see writing. It's, like, a little bit of recycling. Nothing ever completely original. And I and I don't mind that. Like, with Olive, there's four characters, four friends, and some of the reviews were like, we've seen four female friends before with Sex and City and girls and whatever. But you know? And it was still a good review, but it was like, this is a trope. And I don't mind tropes, personally, but you have to also understand that what you like filters into your own books. It just does.

[26:39]Zibby Owens: And talk to me about the brand of an author because you've written about this, about changing your own brand and what does that mean and is that okay? You've obviously worked in advertising and all that. How do you feel about your own brand and the sculpting of it now?

[26:54]Emma Gannon: Oh, I just push back on it now. I remember meetings that I had with my publishers in the you know, a few years ago, and it was like, let's build the brand of what you are as a fiction writer. And, you know, this is no shade to people with brilliant brands. Like, we we know the Emily Henrys of the world. It's like they that is their thing. And it's like, you know that book when you see it in the bookshop. But I don't want to be that, I don't think. Like, as in I don't I want people to be, like, confused by me. Like, I'm okay with that. I like the fact that someone might pick up A Year of Nothing and be like, oh, is that the same person that wrote this one? Yeah. I I quite like that, and I think I kind of just wanna stand for that more, that we don't have to pigeonhole ourselves because we're always changing and evolving. And if you're trying to be too neatly like a brand, I just I don't know. This hurts the soul a little bit, I think.

[27:44]Zibby Owens: Interesting. You also write about grief a lot. Talk to me a little bit about that. And you have some beautiful writing in this book about it as well. Just talk about how to convey such complex emotions in prose. Well,

[28:01]Emma Gannon: I think, you know, it's it's one of the things I mean, it just feels quite pressing talking about it with you today. I'm I'm not sure how much you wanna say on the podcast, but I you know, there's there's a time in life, I think, where we just go through so much loss. And it's like we can logically try to understand it, but then our body is also trying to understand it. And it takes a lot of time, I think, for it to just go in, to, like, sink in, essentially. I don't know. I I just think we don't give ourselves enough time to, like, feel feelings, and I don't mind sadness. Like, I I really don't shy away from it, and I don't find it uncomfortable. I think, like, life is full of really sad times. It's also full of really good times. But I I, like, have a Spotify playlist that's called, like, sad songs, and I will be like, okay. I need to, like, just go into that for the day and, like, feel all of it. And I kind of see it as like a wave. It's like, just go with the wave. Like, don't kinda try and fight the wave. And I think that's really what I was trying to get across in this book, but I didn't realize I mean, I don't I can't really talk about it because it will be a spoiler, but there is, you know, something sad that happens in the book. And it's such a cliche thing to say, but, like, the characters do take on a life of their own. And I didn't I didn't know how that was gonna end. So I I finished the book, and I was like, I just had to sit with it and be like, oh my god. And I was crying. So there is something really amazing about writing. It kind of takes you with it, and I think that's the same with grief.

[29:32]Zibby Owens: It's beautiful. One of the characters in Table for one is this really funny caricature of herself, Instagram influencer wellness person, and a foil for the very real feelings that your main character was having after some really bad things happened. And then we have this, like, theoretically perfect person, which we find out well, I won't even it's so hard to talk about fiction. I'm like, I'm gonna dance around this. I'm gonna dance around that. But anyway, talk about the construction, and this is slightly different than the brand of an author, but more how people put forward who they are

[30:13]Emma Gannon: in ways that may not be the most authentic and, like, how you feel about that and Instagram in general and what your what your point of view is. Yeah. Well, that's a good question because there's a character in the book who is in her twenties, and she is really good at performing herself on the Internet as this, like, solo self love kind of person. And and I've always wanted to write a character in a book where you've got the glossy outlook of the Internet presence versus the behind the scenes. I've always found that interesting because I've always been around it. I've always been with, like, friends in the media or whatever who you go for dinner with them, and you're like, wow. Your trip looked amazing. And they're like, it was terrible. And we lost all my luggage, and, like, my boyfriend hates me, and I just feel terror. And I'm like, wow. Because your photos, like, looked really great. And it's just that sort of disconnect that we can all relate to. And I just had loads of fun writing about that because it's rid it's ridiculous, isn't it, the stuff we try and pretend we do? But I think also my theory is, like, during our lowest moments, I think that's when we put the shiniest pictures up because it's, like, helps us to remember that life can be good. So I have a lot of sympathy for it, and I also do it myself sometimes. But I'm trying not to do that as much now.

[31:26]Zibby Owens: It's a nice way to look at it. I like that. When you put your work into the world, what is it you most want people to get out of it? Do you want them to be entertained? Do you want them to feel

[31:38]Emma Gannon: that being alone is okay and that's, like, the message? Or is it different for each book? Or do you just want to entertain like, what is your what it how do you know when something is not worth putting out there? What are you trying to project? Well, it's funny because I I'm not, like, really confident in all areas of my life. Like, I have my issues with other things. But with creativity, I'm not I don't have insecurities, really. Like, I I'm not saying I'm, like, the best writer in the world. It's just that I love doing it, and that's enough for me. I like it's not that I don't care how it's received. Of course, I do. But I it's not gonna stop me. So it's kind of irrelevant. Like, even if I got terrible reviews, I'd be like, well, I'm gonna do another one. Like, I love it, and I think it's good. And and truly, that's enough for me. And I've been doing this long enough to to learn that lesson. I've not always thought that. But the joy of it for me just overtakes. I think I'm quite good with my gut instincts of what what I wanna do next. I think it it just it's like whether it circles background doesn't leave me alone. That's that's kind of the message. I remember reading Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic about ten years ago, and I think she says a similar thing that it's if it feels alive and it and it won't go away, then then maybe it's the one for you. So,

[32:49]Zibby Owens: yeah, I think that's that's it, really. Yeah. And speaking of Elizabeth Gilbert and your your reading and all the books that you're always recommending, are there any go tos that you always recommend that we all should read that you're like, this is this is my my, you know, reading playlist, so to speak, that you highly recommend or something you're reading now that you're loving? I

[33:11]Emma Gannon: am loving well, actually, on my Substack, because I won't remember them all, I've actually done a list of, like, 10 to 15 of my favorite books that have inspired me along over the years. Like, there's, like, Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird is on there. There's loads of stuff on there. I reread the same books as well because I feel like I have amnesia. I'm like, oh, yeah. I learned that once. Like, I I need to, like, remind myself of the stuff that I already know, weirdly. So a lot of creativity books are on that list. So check that out on the hyphen because it will be easier and you can click through. But I was gonna say, you know, you said why do you know, what do you get out of it, how do you know if it's connected? I'm reading a book at the moment called Discontent by a Spanish author, and it's amazing. And in the acknowledgments, she says, I hope I've kept you company whether I'm on your bedside table or on the tube or in the dentist chair or in the waiting room. Like, I hope we meet again or something. And I was like, that's so lovely because I think that really truly is all it is. It's like, just connecting with another person, aren't you? Like, I wrote this, then you get to read it. And then somehow that means we know each other now. I don't know. I just I find that really lovely.

[34:17]Zibby Owens: That is really lovely. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

[34:21]Emma Gannon: I go in between being really optimistic and really skeptical and pessimistic about the industry. So it's like whatever day you catch me on, I'll say something different. Like, on one hand, it's the most exciting time ever to be an author because you can start your Substack, or you could do a podcast, and you can reach other authors, or you can you know, anything. Like, the world's your oyster. You can do anything. The the amount of self published books, for example, that people just hang onto Amazon as a PDF and then, like, does it does really well, and then they get a big publisher on board. You know? So much possibility. If you're getting loads of rejections, like, matters into own hands. Doesn't mean it's gonna work straight away, but you can keep going. And then also on the other hand, it's like, it's a really hard job, and there's no guarantees. And so it's like, are you willing to try this thing that might not work out? And, you know, it's it sounds really cliche, but it's like you kind of have to love it that much to be willing for it to kind of flop, really. Yeah. And then go and do something, you know, and then try again, try again, try again. It's that's all that's all there is to it as you keep going.

[35:37]Zibby Owens: Well, we're gonna open it up to questions here in a minute. But in the book, you referenced one of one of my favorite movie scenes of all time in Runaway Bride when Oh, your rep says she doesn't know what kind of eggs she likes because she's been just liking the eggs of everybody she's been with and finally realizes what she likes. What kind of eggs do you like? I

[35:57]Emma Gannon: love that. Because that sums up the book because Willow, the main character, is trying to figure out what she likes again. I like scrambled eggs with, like, a tiny bit of milk but no butter. What's with the butter? Like, have you ever had eggs where you're like, I thought eggs were healthy? And, like, that is that really made me feel quite ill. So I think Julia Child wouldn't be a fan of that, though, which she she's all about the butter, and there's nothing wrong with that. But for me, it's, like, just straight just, like, simple scrambled eggs on simple toast. What about you? I also love scrambled eggs. Little little soft. Yeah. But they're preferably made by my husband to have. And and they always taste better when someone you love makes them for you. Very true. Table

[36:39]Zibby Owens: for one. Emma, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. I've followed Debbie's work for years, and I'm genuinely so honored to be here with you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.