Camille Seigle and Ali Mann Stevens, MATERNAL HOPE: Stories of Unseen Struggles, Unexpected Resilience, and the Untold Ways Families Are Made

[1:33]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to totally booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram zibbyowans. Camille Siegel and Allie Mann Stevens are co editors of Stories of Unseen Struggles, Unexpected Resilience, and the Untold Ways Families are Made, an anthology. Allie Mann Stevens is a sales leader at a fast growing tech company. She is a summa cum laude graduate of Queen's College where she earned a degree in sociology before unexpectedly finding her way into the world of sales. What began as a college job selling Cutco evolved into a fulfilling career, including over a decade at LinkedIn, where she discovered a passion for building high performing teams and empowering others to reach their full potential. Her journey took a profoundly personal turn after the premature birth and tragic loss of her twins, who were born at 26, an experience that left her feeling isolated until she discovered comfort in the stories of others who had walked similar paths. The realization that none of us are ever truly alone became her inspiration for this book, in which she offers strength, connection, and hope to others navigating the often silent struggles of parenthood. Allie lives with deep gratitude for the life she holds, a loving partner, two healthy children, a supportive family, and the lessons that love and loss have taught her. When she's not writing or working, she enjoys family adventures outdoors, traveling, painting, interior design, and pausing to appreciate the simple beauty of everyday moments. Originally from Long Island, Allie now lives in Westchester County with her husband Tim and their two young children. This is her first book. Camille Siegel, her co editor, is a consultant, mentor, speaker, and facilitator who helps guide individuals and companies to unlock their full potential. She uses intuitive approaches and holds clients accountable to their goals to foster personalized growth and success. Drawing on a rich professional background that began in hospitality and continued at LinkedIn, Camille brings warmth, clarity, and structure to her coaching work. She holds a VA from Denison University, a postgraduate diploma from Les Roches, Global Hospitality Education, and an Organizational and Leadership Coaching Certificate from Northwestern University. Certified by the International Coaching Federation, Camille integrates values, longevity, and holistic assessment tools into her practice to support clients in building more balanced and fulfilling lives. Camille's postpartum experience left her feeling alone and isolated during the COVID-nineteen pandemic. Returning to work remotely after maternity leave didn't help. She believes that many of us are holding our most painful stories close, despite the fact that so many people are going through similar challenges. She believes in the power of sharing our stories and hopes this anthology allows many to recognize that they are not alone in their experiences. Camille lives in Chicago with her husband and their daughter. She loves to travel, spend time with her family, and nurture her mind, body, and soul. This is her first book. Welcome, Camille and Allie. I am so excited for you to be on the show to talk about your collection, maternal hope, stories of unseen struggles, unexpected resilience, and the untold ways families are made. Congratulations.

[5:14]Camille Seigle: Thank you. Thank you much. And

[5:18]Zibby Owens: after all the struggle to put these on no. I'm kidding. You were so kind as to send these beautiful necklaces to go along with the book, which is the most generous ever sort of launch gift I've received for blurbing or whatever. So thank you for that. Tell a little bit of the story behind these beautiful charms.

[5:37]Camille Seigle: Yeah. So one of our brand sponsors, her name is Jill Johnson, this incredible woman. She's a cancer survivor. She and her son Max actually started the company out of LA. And each piece has a beautiful meaning, which really like lines up with, you know, the purpose well, the meaning behind Returnal Hope, which is all about just strength and resilience and creating community and meaning after a hard time. So that's what the CEO Jill, did after her story and, her pieces are incredible.

[6:07]Zibby Owens: Your essays in the book, both of you, were so beautiful, heartbreaking, also inspiring, like, all the feels. I can't believe I said all the feels. I never use that expression. Pretend I didn't say that. I've been spending too much time with my kids. Okay. That's what we want. All the feels. All the That's great. Alright. Why don't we start with you, Camille? Talk a little bit about what happened to you, how you decided to share it in this very vulnerable, intimate way. Both of you did. I feel like I've just been, like, over a close meal with you, like, leaning forward while you whisper these stories to me. So talk a little, Camille, go first about what happened.

[6:48]Ali Mann Stevens: Yeah. I think, you know, for me, getting pregnant was not the challenge. And I say that to say that so many people, it starts there. But for me, pregnancy was what you would call pretty normal, regular, easy. The really big just shock and awe for me was going through postpartum and really having a breaking point of discovering who I was, discovering what I needed, and ultimately ending up in a situation where I was questioning my own life, which I think is so I hate to use the word normal, but I think so many people have that experience and are so afraid to share it, to be vulnerable about it. And when I had shared it with Allie at the time, both of us were working together at LinkedIn. She had her own story, which she'll share. But it was just normalizing these experiences and the conversation and understanding that you are not alone in this experience. Yet it feels like when you're in it that you are nothing but alone.

[7:53]Zibby Owens: I'm so sorry. I mean, you have this moment and you show us in the essay of how things keep building and your husband's calling you Eeyore and you're just like moping around. If anybody's husband starts calling them Eeyore, this is a sign that you should seek help. That's right. Right? I mean, you know, sleep deprivation alone does a number on everyone, right, and all the hormones and all the things. Like, there are just so many so many inputs that drive us to the brink of new motherhood. But but when your closest loved ones are calling things out even in a joking way, just like, you know, make that alert go off in your brain or whatever. But, anyway, you got to a point where you really had this moment out on this porch where you were like, maybe this should just be it. It's it's terrifying to read and to know that you got to that point really of feeling like there was no way out, that you were trapped in some sort of situation, and that became the answer to the problem Mhmm. Which is the the heartbreaking part of it all. It's like when there is no way out, how do you cope with that? And it can be about motherhood or really anything. You know? It just that feeling of feeling trapped. Talk a little bit about about that. And you ended up having this huge about face as a result. Yeah.

[9:13]Ali Mann Stevens: I think there's one, COVID did not help. And I like to name that because I think there's so many factors when you are postpartum and or trying to get pregnant. And then the whole world was ultimately shut down as well, which I think was just another dynamic that added to both of our experiences. And I think for me getting to that point, it was just this moment of like, why am I here? What is this experience? And I so vividly remember, and it gives me chills every time my daughter's cry. I heard her cry. And ultimately, that was the first time where I was like, oh, my gosh, like, this is my role. This is why I'm here. And it just brought me back. And I say that to say that it's small steps. I think so often we think like when you're stuck in anything, when you're in grief, when you're in this experience, you're just supposed to be happy the next day and you're supposed to live in these joyful moments. And sure, there are joyful moments, but there are seasons and there are just different seasons for all of it. And being in the darkness and the gray and letting yourself experience those emotions,

[10:22]Zibby Owens: to me, that's the only way you get through them. My gosh. Well, you're sharing it, I'm sure, is going to help other people, not to mention all the other essays, but, you know, even just if it were just that, Diana. Anyway. Alright. Ali, go ahead. Talk a little bit about your essay if you don't mind. And by the way, I mean, I actually had to stop reading the essay and sort of put my hand over my heart at one point when you were describing the scene in the back. I mean, it was so intense and so vivid, and you shared so much. Oh my gosh. Talk a little bit about it. Yeah. And you have twins. Right? I do have twins. You do. Yeah. So,

[11:04]Camille Seigle: yeah, the feedback I've gotten was that the reading the chapters, it was so crushing, but this cleansing cry sort of what my whole experience has been like even since it happened. But in 2019, my husband and I decided we were ready to start a family of our own and realized after struggling to get pregnant that I had major fertility issues. I had low AMH, anti Mullerian hormone and one working fallopian tube. So it's not to say I could not get pregnant, but it was confirmed that it would be very, very difficult. So we decided to take the IVF route and did two egg retrievals, which based on what I hear from any woman going through IVF, that's considered like pretty good in terms of how difficult it could be. People go through ten, fifteen egg retrievals, multiple transfers. I felt so lucky and blessed and grateful that I only had two. We transferred two embryos. They both stuck. This was me. We couldn't believe it. Took the pregnancy test. We were pregnant. I wanted to scream from the top of the Empire State Building. All the rooftops in Manhattan, I was pregnant. We couldn't believe it. I even felt this sense of, like, guilt because it was easy. All things considered. And I wrote in my journal, at the start of the new year, or it was maybe even December 31, all about how I was feeling that I just couldn't, I couldn't believe we had two healthy children and babies growing inside of me and here we were. And then it all took a turn for the worst. In April 2020, so about six weeks after the world had shut down, twenty four hours after a perfect doctor's appointment where everything was confirmed, the babies were growing healthy, I was doing great, my fluid levels were perfect, Picture perfect, everything. I had a horrendous stomachache. Later, learned I was in labor and I had no idea. I thought it was food poisoning. We've all had horrible stomachaches. I was twenty six weeks pregnant. There's no way these babies were coming. I didn't even think to call my doctor because it couldn't have been baby related until I realized it was. And I felt things moving inside of my stomach when everything took a turn for the worse, and it felt like my organs were about to come out of me. And it was a baby in the bathroom came out of my body. As visual as that might feel to hear, that's what happened. And in this sick way, I was relieved that it was a baby. It wasn't my insides coming out of me. And there I was on the bathroom floor holding my It sounded like a kitten. She was purring, and she was pink. Was so happy. She was alive. She seemed, We're gonna be okay. Just get me to the hospital. And I got to the hospital, obviously, via ambulance. The medics were holding her. Two were over me, and I kept reminding them, There's another baby inside of me. There's another baby inside of me. We gotta go. We gotta go. Go faster. Go faster. It's 03:00 in the morning in the middle of Brooklyn, New York. When I made it to the hospital. And I was put in the back of an administrative office because all of the rooms were for COVID patients. Literally, there was people take doing intakes, I was in the back delivering my son, And he came out in horrendous shape, the opposite, actually, of my little purring kitten. He wasn't breathing. He was blue. And it was like the scene out of a movie, and they were resuscitating him. He came to. And ultimately, my two babies were transferred to another hospital in New York City, and my son Max died after twenty twenty four hours.

[15:11]Zibby Owens: -Oh, Ellie.

[15:13]Camille Seigle: -And my daughter, we had a, you know, a NICU journey similar to what I hear people's journeys are like. And Liv, my daughter, was on her own timeline, as the doctors kept telling me, and don't compare her to other babies in the NICU. You know, I know it seems like the babies are getting better week by week and Liv isn't. And just stay in your lane, and that's what we did. But then she was diagnosed with something called NEC, which is necrotizing enterocolitis. And in addition to that, had sepsis and E. Coli and severe brain damage from lack of oxygen she had at birth. And we lost her also seven weeks after we lost Max. So then we went home. My husband and I left the hospital with empty hands and broken hearts. And that was our story of the birth. Then fast forward only nine weeks and miraculously after being told getting pregnant could take you years, if at all, and I would need medical help and science, I was pregnant with my now healthy son and my grieving journey while becoming pregnant naturally. Those two worlds collided. And it's the life that I still live today, just knowing, you know, that grief and gratitude and happiness can all be felt at the same time.

[16:48]Zibby Owens: I'm so sorry that you went through that. I'm so sorry that science, like, couldn't save Liv and Max, that, like, it just couldn't they just couldn't do it, and it's so terrible. And the way you wrote about it, way you talk about it now, it's I'm just so sorry. I wish I could hug you. Not that and and and so amazing you have your two beautiful kids as well, but the way you write about, you know, you are the mother of four kids and, you know, those are your firstborn kids always and the moments where you are kissing their heads goodbye. And, I mean, this is so heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking, and it's not talked about enough. People talk about pregnancy loss or NICU journeys and your child doesn't make it or whatever. It usually ends there, and you had the grace and strength to take us all the way through through the pain, which is so important. It's so important for it to be seen, and it's really beautiful.

[17:52]Camille Seigle: Thank you. Thank you so much. You're so right. It just stops there. You know what I mean? You're you're totally right, and thank you for calling that out.

[17:59]Zibby Owens: Ugh. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[20:45]Zibby Owens: Did they ever and not this is not that this is any of my business. Did they ever figure out why you went into preterm labor?

[20:52]Camille Seigle: Yes. They did. So Max was born with some a condition, non genetic. So it wasn't picked up or identified during pregnancy or any of the embryo testing, but he had something called VACTERALL, V, it's an acronym, V A C T E R L, and each letter stands for a different condition. Max had four of those. One of the conditions, which is a treat I I won't I'm gonna butcher the words where I won't even try, but esophageal atresia and two other big long words. And his esophagus was closing. And therefore when he would swa he would swallow and the fluids weren't circulating between him and my umbilical cord properly. And he stopped swallowing essentially. And his esophagus got so small that I then in a matter of hours filled up with fluid and my body basically exploded. And there's not a medical term for that.

[21:58]Zibby Owens: But I believe the term is hell.

[22:02]Camille Seigle: Hell on earth. So he pushed Liv out is what happened. And people don't believe me until I show them the doctor's photos, but my water never broke. My fluid sac came out intact, which is medically unheard of, but his condition caused the explosion. Wow.

[22:25]Zibby Owens: Yeah. So the two of you could have just bonded over this at LinkedIn and, you know, made a a close friend and then, you know, gone to moving on with your life and your motherhood and your but you didn't. You stopped and said, like, not only do you wanna collect your two stories, but you wanna bring in all these other stories as well for an an anthology around this topic. Why?

[22:52]Ali Mann Stevens: I think for both of us, the more that we connected over it, the more vulnerable we became with each other, we started to realize how often these topics just don't get shared. And the ones that do, and there's no taking away from it, there's some celebrities that have shared, which is incredibly vulnerable and real and great. But you're not hearing from everyday people. You're not hearing from the stories of a nurse, a NICU nurse or a doctor. Like, these stories just don't get shared. So when Ali and I started talking about it, we started realizing there are so many people that go through these experiences that they don't share them. And how can we just start to bring light to it's not just my experience, it's not just Ali's experience, but who are all the other people? And granted, we have a small snippet of other people that have shared their story. But another example in our book is same sex surrogacy. He actually also worked at LinkedIn. You don't hear about men. You don't hear about a gay couple and what they have to go through to have a baby. And that was just something where we wanted to bring light. We wanted to share with people that they're not alone in these experiences. And I think the more that we share, the more that we're vulnerable with each other, the more we can hear something from someone else's story and have an moment for ourself, the more we can feel seen, and then the more we can start to share with each other. Wow. How did it feel collecting the stories, choosing the stories?

[24:22]Zibby Owens: And, Ally, are you okay? I know you're still I mean, I can't imagine that just being like, okay. I'm gonna just share the most painful moment of my life, and then moving on. Let me talk about, like, my Google Doc spreadsheet of essays. You know? I mean, it's hard to pivot like that. Totally.

[24:37]Camille Seigle: No. No. I'm I'm okay. Thank you. But your question was, oh, just the process of like reading the stories. For me, it was therapeutic, which that wasn't an expectation I had after Camille and I had We essentially recruited our contributors, right? Every contributor has a very different story. And we had only maybe one or two personal connections and the rest were at one point strangers. And when we reached out to them with this opportunity for them to share their story, they were so excited, but what they were more excited about was our mission and our whole purpose and sharing it with them that, look, what Camille and I felt was alone as we were struggling and we felt no one could relate, no one knew what anyone goes through. You just read headlines in media. So this gay couple went through surrogacy and here's their story in like maybe four or five paragraphs. Maybe. Usually it's one paragraph on Instagram. But they were very excited and motivated to write the chapter to help us help the world, which is what we're wanting and hoping maternal hope will do. So reading it for me just reconfirmed the need for this book in the world and reconfirmed the need to normalize talking about these things in very raw and vulnerable detail. And bringing the book to life is frankly a dream come true and something, you know, that's been on mine and Camille's bucket list for over five years. So it's been really incredible.

[26:27]Zibby Owens: Who is the best recipient for this gift? Is it an expecting parent, someone trying to get pregnant, somebody who is already a mom? Like, who is this for? Who is your wish list? Who's on your wish list?

[26:38]Ali Mann Stevens: I think there's a lot of different audiences. I think one of the things that we've spoken about is like, if you're in it, is this the right book for you? And I think it really depends on the person because for some people, if they're going through fertility and they're feeling like, oh, I'm so alone and nobody goes through it. And why am I the only one experiencing it? I actually think this is a beautiful gift for them to realize, like, there is another side to this. You can get through it. Here are some of the other stories. I also think for somebody that's postpartum, I've had quite a few women reach out to me that are like brand new postpartum and just say how validated they felt in the experiences that I share that they had not even shared with their partner. And that, to me, is like another example of I maybe would think it'd be too raw to read right after. But we've heard already that, like, people are really, really just soaking in the ability to connect with somebody that's gone through that before. So I think there's quite a few different experiences, whether you're infertility, whether you are newly postpartum. And sure, if you've gone through your experience and you have kids that are healthy, I think there's a beautiful thing too of just reading this and understanding that you may have a friend or your child may be going through this and just giving you the relatability that they're not alone in that experience.

[28:02]Camille Seigle: Yeah, that's an audience too, Kim, that like, I think people may not realize. It's for the grandparents of women like us who can't possibly understand. It's for friends who are watching their friend struggle to get pregnant or struggle with postpartum or going through adoption or surrogacy or stillbirth or recently lost. They have a friend or a sister that recently had a loss. So it's for family, friends, loved ones who can't possibly relate firsthand, but wants to so badly understand so that they can continue to support their loved ones that are struggling. Like, I wish my family could have read this book while I was going through everything. What brings you both the most hope right now,

[28:54]Zibby Owens: maternal or otherwise?

[28:56]Camille Seigle: My healthy living children bring me so much hope. And people often ask me, would I feel this sense of hope and fulfillment in my life if I didn't have them? And actually, I don't know the answer to that because I do have them and I'm just beyond forever grateful. My perspective on quite literally everything in life has changed because of Teddy and Ava, but they give me hope. And the impact that the book will have on the world gives me a lot of hope for the people going through it, not just for myself. It's what comes to mind for me first.

[29:42]Ali Mann Stevens: That's beautiful. Think for me, it's just the small moments. I think right now, when you look at the world, can easily find So I mean, every day, all the headlines, there's something that can frustrate you, overwhelm you, feel like, oh, why is this the world we're living in? But I think what gives me hope is those small moments of joy and connection and knowing that there are still so many good people and good things. And how do you just have those experiences? And it's not every day. It's not all the time. But when you can sit with somebody that's smiling or look at the sun and be like, wow, it's a beautiful day today. Just those small micro moments that gives me hope for everybody in their own experience. Amazing.

[30:29]Zibby Owens: Thank you to the two of you for compiling this collection of essays, for sharing your own stories in such an authentic, beautiful way, and for encouraging conversation around really hard issues, which ultimately will will help everyone. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us, Sabee. Of course. Alright. Take care, and thanks again for my thanks again for my beautiful necklaces. Of course. Gonna let my daughters fight over these, I think.

[30:57]Camille Seigle: Okay.

[30:59]Zibby Owens: Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.