Nicholas Thompson Runs Publications, Runs Competitively, and Never Runs Out of Insights

[1:24]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or under rated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. I truly, truly enjoyed talking to Nicholas Thompson, who wrote The Running Ground, a father, a son, and the simplest of sports. I devoured this book. It's not just about running. It's about life, endurance, persistence, overcoming odds, decision making, fatherhood, being a son, being a husband. I mean, there is a lot in this book, and it is the type of memoir you can really sink your teeth into. And I just loved it. Plus, I learned a lot. I love learning, and I learned a lot about running and technique and the control you have over your mind and body, and it was just great. So you have to check it out. Nick Thompson is the CEO of The Atlantic, an American magazine founded in 1857, which earned the top honor for magazines general excellence at the National Magazine Awards in both 2022 and 2023. In his time as CEO, the company has seen record subscriber growth. And before joining The Atlantic, he was the editor in chief of Wired magazine. He's also a former contributor for CBS News and has previously served as editor. It doesn't say here, but she he was also at the New Yorker for a while, which is a really pivotal point in the book. He has long been a competitive runner, and in 2021, he set the American record for men 45 and up in the 50 k race. Oh my gosh. 50 k. Can't even walk, like, 50 blocks. But, anyway, enjoy. Welcome, Nick. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to discuss your amazing book about so many things from running to family to business and parenting.

[3:47]Nicholas Thompson: And, wow, you got a lot in there. I'm very impressed. Congratulations. Well, thank you. That was a lovely lovely introduction to B and M. Thrilled to be here. Thanks.

[3:55]Zibby Owens: Okay. Why don't you do a better job giving a little synopsis of of your book? And also, why write a memoir? You have a lot going on. Why did you take the time to do it? Well,

[4:05]Nicholas Thompson: the reason to write the memoir was to explain a really interesting question about running. So first off, the book's not totally a memoir. Right? Like, I'm the CEO of the Atlantic. There's, like, two sentences about the Atlantic in the book. It's really about my life running and my relationship to my father. What happened was I trained really hard in my thirties and got stuck running a two forty three marathon. And for people who aren't marathoners, it's like a very good time. It's excellent. It's but it's not elite. And then in my forties, I suddenly ran a two twenty nine, which is elite. And when I was thinking through why did I make that change, like why did why did I improve like this, I realized the answer was pretty deep and pretty complicated and had to do with the ways I block myself about believing I could be faster than I had been when I was 29 years old, which was a period before it. I got very sick when I was 30 and I couldn't believe that I could be faster than I had been before I got sick. And once I realized that, I realized, wait, okay, running is kind of more interesting than I thought, right? It's not this math equation about your cardiovascular output and your efficiency of movement and your mass and your power dynamics. It's really, it's deep, it's spiritual, it's hard. And so I decided to write this story about my life running, my father's crazy life, his life running, and then other runners who teach you about pain and teach you about life through the sport. So that's where the book came from. Amazing.

[5:30]Zibby Owens: And you shared so much about running and, you know, like most people, I run. Everybody has run at some point or another. But I've never thought about it in the way that you put it in the book. And even things like there was one race where you were like, I'm shaving my toes and and scraping off dirt on the bottom of my shoes because maybe it would shave a second off my time. I was like, wow.

[5:53]Nicholas Thompson: Right. I mean, well and there's, like, interesting physics to that. Right? Because if you think about your feet and you think about how they move, right, weight at your center of mass, right, around your hips kind of matters the least, right? And if you want to add weight while you're running, like you want to store a gel or you carry water, like putting at your center of mass is good. Extra weight either on your head or on your feet, which move like these little pendulums while you run, can actually have a big impact. And that's why having lighter shoes makes a big difference. Now the main way you can get lighter shoes is buy lighter shoes, not scrape the dirt off on your toenails. But, you know, I do all the things I can do.

[6:30]Zibby Owens: You know, you do what you can. Yeah. You write as you mentioned, you went through cancer when you were 30 and you write about that whole ordeal, stressful. But it gave you a new sort of outlook, not to be cliche, on on sort of life and and recovery and endurance and all that. And I was hoping you could just share a little bit about that. And you have a scene where, you know, you're you're running past your your son, and it's two years later, and you couldn't believe you could even do it. And so the victory behind that, and yet believing very strongly that you were definitely going to die. Like, you it was clear that's what you thought was happening. Just take us back to that take us back to that really traumatic time in your life, if you don't mind. I'm happy to. So in

[7:15]Nicholas Thompson: 2005, I run the New York City Marathon. And, you know, I live in New York. It's this beautiful race. I run a two forty three. I've for a long time, I've been trying to break a three hour marathon. Wow. It's amazing. I feel so strong. I feel so good. I feel so confident. I just I get a great job. I sell this book proposal. Like, is great in the fall of two thousand and five. And then shortly after the marathon, like, a couple of days, I get diagnosed with this lump in my throat and it turns out or the doctor identifies a lump in my throat and then over the next six weeks, eight weeks, they determine that it indeed is thyroid cancer, which, you know, is a relatively benevolent form of cancer but it's still very hard to get when you're 30 years old. And so I go through treatment, I have surgery, they take it out. They're not sure what it is so they do surgery and they take out half my thyroid and they're like, Congratulations, it's not cancer, you're good. I'm like, Yeah. And then two weeks later they're like, Sorry, we read the slide wrong, got to do surgery again. So I go back in again. There's another surgery. There's this medication you have to go on, but titrating, it's really hard. You have to do a radiation treatment. And so I go through all that, and I'm pretty wiped out, you know, and I can't really walk around the block. I remember that. I lived in Park Slope on 8th Avenue and Union Street. And I remember 77 8th Avenue. I remember going out the door, taking a right, and then trying to go up Union and just, like, not being able to do that. And for a guy who, it's probably six months earlier, had, you know, finished one hundred and tenth place in the University Marathon, it was like, God, what on earth? And the thing that was really relevant to the book is that I just felt like I had to run again, right? That there was something about if I could run another marathon, I would feel like I was alive. And the moment I remember was it was at it would have been like six months after that. It was at the wedding of my cousin who I know was a grade school classmate of yours. And she was getting married out in Aspen, Colorado. I remember going and running up this mountain, being able to run up and run down. It's like, wow. You're like, I can still do this. I am still here. That was a really beautiful moment. And in fact, last week, ran up the same mountain to just to try to remember that moment. And then so then in 2007, so two years after the diagnosis, go back, I run the New York City Marathon again, and I run it thirteen seconds faster than I had run it two years before. And it was just it was incredible. And that's so it's a key moment in the book because it's about running. It's about life. It's about perspective you get as you get older. It's about post traumatic growth. Mhmm. There are a lot of pretty complicated themes that are tied up. It's also about my father who is this very complicated, wonderful, weird man who is the most supportive parent you could have most times, but who ran away from danger and pain and wasn't actually supportive during that period. So there's a lot of hard stuff in there.

[10:03]Zibby Owens: I love that we watch you sort of untying the knots of all of your thoughts and memories your dad and like coming to this very loving sort of forgiving conclusion about the whole thing, acceptance. I feel like you got to a point of of completing it. You know, it's interesting about the writing process, which is that

[10:23]Nicholas Thompson: if you were to read I went through a I don't know. Somebody asked me how many drafts I did, and they're like four or five. Was like, no. Probably actually a 100. And if you I went back and I read the first draft, which I used maybe two years before I finished the manuscript, it wasn't as forgiving. And, you know, there was something about the writing process, the editing process, the documents I discovered as I went, the letters I found as I went. You know, I he emailed me more or less every day of my adult life. You know, it's more of the reflections that I have of how I try to be as a father that made me accept him more. And just to give a brief synopsis, he's a guy who grows up in a relatively tough situation, busts out, zooms up the American meritocracy, wins a Rhodes Scholarships. People say he's gonna become president. He then starts drinking too much. Life becomes really hard, comes out of the closet, blows up his family, goes bankrupt, and then more or less ends up running a brothel for men in Southeast Asia. And complicated messy life, and where I end up being his financial support, which is not the way it's supposed to work. So let's go the other way around. Parents supposed to support the kids. Right? We have a reverse father son relationship. I'm like, dad, do your damn homework and here's a $100. Right? And he, you know, is like, I don't wanna do my homework and I'm going out. So it's a it was a hard and complicated and messy relationship, but he did a lot for me. You know, he loved me all the way through. He supported me. He believed in me like no one else, and he cared profoundly. And that's that's a lot to ask for from a father. Wow. Beautiful.

[11:48]Zibby Owens: Another through line of the book that I really loved was your professional journey and how you wove that through and your persistence in getting a position at The New Yorker, which I feel like was meant to be because then there you were and you could write about the Boston Marathon Yeah. Massacre and that moment where David Remnick comes in your office and is like, you have an hour. Go.

[12:09]Nicholas Thompson: I love that. I just love that scene. Yeah. So, you know, there aren't that many. Worked at the New Yorker for six years. I adore that place. I really only focused on two moments. One is I was an editor at Wired. I really like, the New Yorker, you know, then was just absolutely where I wanted to go. And I go in for an interview, I go through the process, and I don't get it. And but I go through, like, fifteen hours of interviews, edit tests, and I don't get the job. And then maybe two months later, I'm at a party, and this woman who was an assistant to one of the top executives was pretty lit. And the job had gone to this guy named Nick Trotwein, who's awesome. And she's like, Makay, I'm Nick Thompson. She's like, Nick Thompson, oh my god. I'm at the New Yorker. They almost hired you. They're like, Thompson, Trotwein, Thompson, Trotwein. And I was like, So I came really close. And then I was about to leave. I was at Wired and Wired was good, but I had gotten an offer. I got kind of a bunch of offers and like all these different tracks. Maybe it could be a TV news anchor and I was gonna go be a tech writer somewhere. And I was like, you know, I'm not sure about this. And then there was this night I was up in the Catskills, and I pull a book off my shelf, The Survival of the Bark Canoe by John McPhee. And I've got, like, little kids, so I can't sleep. Right? And it's 02:00 in the morning, 03:00 in the morning. And I read this book cover to cover. I'm like, my god. Like, McPhee. God. I love John McPhee. And John McPhee writes for the New Yorker. And so at 03:00 that morning, I wrote to Pam McCarthy. And I was like, dear miss McCarthy. She's the Remnick's deputy. Dear dear miss McCarthy, I know you didn't hire me, but I also know it was close. I'm gonna go leave wired right now, and I'm gonna go work for one of your most serious competitors. You should hire me now, please. And she writes back. I remember she didn't write back for a couple days. And I like, man, what a loser. Why did I send that note? You know what? What a sort of impostuous, like, 3AM thing to do. And then she writes back, and she's like, let's have lunch tomorrow. And so I have lunch with her, and then, you know, Remnik calls me in the next day, and then they hire me, like, more or less, like, within the week. And if you think back on my life, probably the most important email I ever sent. Right? So then I go work at the New Yorker, and I come in as a senior editor. I'm editing these feature stories. I'm editing Steve Kahl, all these awesome people. And then, you know, David recognizes that I have a little bit of a tech aptitude. Haven't come from Warren. Haven't come to Stanford. Worked for a tech computer company for a little bit. So he's like, you know what? You should run the website. We're gonna have an ambitious website. You know, it's all yours. And it's this, like, it's a great job, but nobody at the New Yorker wants to write for the website in 2012. It was kind of I could describe it as like the Minsk desk in a place that also has a Paris office. But then the Boston Marathon happens, and the bombing happens, and, like, we're on it. Right? There's this woman, Amy Davidson, who's the executive editor, who's just like this machine. I've never seen anybody work harder or more efficiently. You know, she gets up. Remember, she she and sat I went back and counted for the book. I don't think the status in the book, but I believe that in that, there's like a three day period. I believe she and I exchanged 300 emails, right, more or less twenty four hours a day and she's writing these stories. And then there's this moment where you know I'm editing, I'm coordinating, and Remnant comes in my office. So at the end of this hallway, we're in 42nd Street and it's on the South Side. I kinda look out over 42nd Street. And, he comes in, and he's like, hey, Nick. I was like, hi, David. He's like, this Boston Marathon bombing. He's like, you're gonna write about it? And I was like, no. No. No. I'm not. Because I wasn't really confident as a writer. And I was like, no. You know, we've got, like, Murakami's filing, like, George Packer's writing. He's like, Nick, you grew up in Boston. You run marathons. You're gonna write about this. And I like, no. No. No. And he's like, here's what's gonna happen, Nick. You're gonna put down your phone, and you're gonna start typing. And in one hour, I'm gonna come back, and I'm gonna reopen the store, and you're gonna hand me your story. I was like, what? And so I did it. Now I wrote a story. It's pretty good. Reread it, you know, when I was writing the book. But it's this incredible moment. It was incredible moment for me. Both of, like, David is, you know, more or less the most efficient person in the planet, probably the most efficient writer. Like, he'll be like, I have to write 9,000 words. Hold on. I'm gonna close the door, when I open it, I'll have 9,000 words for you. And he was teaching me a lesson about efficiency, about just doing it, and also about confidence as a writer. And it worked. And then it was also so it's both this moment for Nick, and then it's also this moment for the New Yorker website where suddenly we become relevant, but both within the institution and culturally. Because our coverage about the Boston Marathon bombing was awesome. Right? And it's a pretty big moment all the way around. And from that moment on, the website was not the mints desk anymore. It's like it's it's actually a real part of the organization and people care and pay as much and there's complications and there's tensions. But it's like a great moment for me professionally in a lot of ways. Wow. I love that story. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[19:07]Zibby Owens: Sorry. Yeah. You also share with us your decision making process. And as someone who has trouble sometimes making decisions, I totally related to your, you know, ruminating on whether or not to take this path or that path. And you have this moment with your wife where you're like, wait a minute. What if I just had one Yeah. Way to decide, and it's how good a dad I could be? And I Yeah. And then you made a decision very easily. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah. That was I I almost started the book with that story. I was trying to figure out, like the book was a very hard thing to structure, and there's a lot of complexity in how it's layered because I'm dealing with multiple chronologies.

[19:44]Nicholas Thompson: But that was in it would have been December 2016. And I had just, you know, just run the New York Marathon, had just done well. I actually had gone running with my kids who were then like six and eight. Six, eight, and two. I had gone with the six and the eight year old, not the two year old. And I had this really hard job where Facebook had offered me a big job in the product department, it and was just after the twenty sixteen election. I had been in there before the election talking about the algorithm, talking about fake news, talking about incentive systems, and they had seen what had happened in the way that, you know, the algorithm had led to a kind of politics that, you know, very much didn't match, I mean, making the world more connected. Right? And they were trying to hire people who would help counter that. And so I was offered this amazing job. And was like, wow. I guess it's I'm gonna leave the New Yorker and do this. And then simultaneously, without Conde Nast knowing this, I was, you know, the it was time to there is an opening as the editor in chief of wired, and they're like, hey. We don't be the editor in chief of wired. I was like, oh my god. Right? Like, you know you know, Kanye Nast doesn't know those things happening at Facebook. Facebook doesn't know those things happening at Kanye Nast. And both are quite both fast processes and secret processes. And so I, like, make all these lists. I'm trying to figure out where I'm gonna live. You think about you know, all the things you think about when you're making a big decision. Like, okay. Well, how much am I pay? What is the what is the job after this? Like, how much am I gonna enjoy this? And so I make all these lists, I can't talk to anybody. And I get stuck, right? Remember the twenty sixteen election, The New York Times had that like the needle, right? And my wife would just make fun of me. And she's like, Oh, the needle, it looks like it's It going towards looks like it's going towards Facebook. And so I'm just thinking it through, thinking it through. Remember, I was sitting in this purple chair. There's a picture of my dad running above me. And then I had this insight, which is, like, one of the best insights I've ever had. I was like, you know what? I'm trying make these spreadsheets, and I've got, like, 20 values, and you can weight them however you want. Like, let's just choose the most important thing. Like, what is the job that will make me a better father to my kids? And, you know, that's still complicated because there are lot of variables that go into that, but now I've very much simplified the problem. Right? Because then you're not really thinking about money. You're not really thinking about, you know, the job afterwards. You're not really thinking about your own personal satisfaction. It's like, okay. Well, if I go wired, I'll be like like, all these gadgets will be, like, mailed to me. I'll be, like, explaining how this stuff works. I'll be meeting all these interesting people. Like, they'll get to be involved. And that turned out to be the case. Like, I got to go on all these great trips and I brought my kids with me. And if I go to Facebook, it'd be like harder and they won't really understand it. So I like, you know what? At this point in their life, I just do the wire job. Right? And so I said yes to Conde Nast, I said no to Facebook, and that, you know, it was a good way to make decisions. I haven't had to make a decision that hard since then or, like, have to use that same heuristic, and it's different depending on how old your kids are. Different factors come in, but I do very much I have definitely had situations where I'm really stuck. Then And the question becomes, okay. You're really stuck. Boil it down to one variable. Find the most important variable.

[22:52]Zibby Owens: That's a hard process in itself, and then make the decision based on that variable. Love it. Well, I'm gonna cling to that. In future decision making moments in my life, You then include your kids in a lot of the later parts of the book where you have dialogue with your kids. And I love where you finish one race and you got this really fabulous time. And you said something to your son like, okay. Well, what do you think I'm gonna get on my next race? And he made the time worse. And you're like, worse? It's like he's like, you think you could ever do better than that? I don't think so.

[23:22]Nicholas Thompson: Well, you know you know the crazy thing about that? So that was 2019. And I had just had this amazing period where again, these numbers won't mean anything to, like, 99% of listeners, but to the marathoners, they'll be like, woah. You know, I ran two forty three, two thirty eight, two thirty four, two twenty nine. Like, this incredible progression. I've just run two twenty nine, and I'm in the taxi coming back. My oldest son, Ellis, has come to cheer me on. And I'm like, what do you think I'm gonna run next? And he's like, two thirty five. I was like, what the hell? Right? Like, I was thinking he was gonna say two twenty five. Anyway, so, you know, it's just like and he was I don't how old was he. He would have been 11 years old at the time. Do you know what the fastest marathon I've run since that time is? Two You 30 know, I've run like 10 marathons and like that's the best it's been. He knew it. He knew it. He knew that like, you know, dad, you've done great, but man, like they also say this to me. And they also, they give real talk. So I last in November, a couple months ago, I finished the New York Marathon. It was just it was a mess. And I like came in way off my goal. But again, nobody knows what a marathon time is. I ran three zero six. Right? I had runners run two thirty five, two forty, and nobody knows. Nobody cares. And so everybody's texting, like, great job, Nick. I saw you on the course. You looked amazing. Right? But meanwhile, runners, like, you miss your time by four seconds, and you're pissed. Right? And I missed by, you know, thirty minutes. I come home, and, you know, all I got are these nice texts and, like, love emojis. And my son walks in the door right after me, my middle son. And he goes, dad, what was that? I was like, I don't know. Tough day. Respiratory infection. He's like, do not post that on Scrabba. Do not tell anybody you ran. Go enter another marathon immediately and bury that garbage. Right? You're just like you know? Kids, like, they tell it to you the way it is. It was amazing. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well,

[25:07]Zibby Owens: I feel like another sort of just through line of everything is this notion of the unexpected and overcoming challenges that you don't see coming that are always in your way. And you had this one moment before a race where were ready to go and you were somewhere I don't know. I can't remember. Somewhere out west or wherever. And you just opened your door to run the marathon, and the there was snow everywhere. And you were like, oh my gosh. I have this one pair of sneakers, and I'm not dressed for this. And what am I gonna do? And it ended up being fine. But I feel like that moment is, like, sums up a lot of the book, which is, like, you can do what you can to prepare, and then you open the door, and gosh, you just don't even know what's waiting for you. And, like, think back to, like, to the first question you you asked about, like, you know, shaving the hair off my feet. Right? Like, you think about, like, the obsession over the details you can control.

[25:54]Nicholas Thompson: Mhmm. God. I'm gonna, like, control all these details, and I'll cut a second. And then the weather changes and it adds like fifteen minutes to your time, right? And so you're in this like, life is this constant balance of like try to identify the things you can do, optimize as much as you can on those things and then be prepared for

[26:10]Zibby Owens: the nonsense that comes at you. That's a good way to wrap it up. Well, Nick, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for your fabulous book. I truly enjoyed it. I learned a lot and feel quite both inspired and more directed in my own life. So thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much, Zibby. It was an honor to be on with you, and, I love how closely you read it and how much you enjoyed it. Thank you. Alright. Take care. Thank you. Okay. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.