The Truth About Fatherhood: Becoming One and Coping with the Loss of Another with Matt Fogelson

[1:35]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at zippy owens. I loved talking to Matt Vogelsen about his story with his father, the loss of his father when he was in college, how he coped with grief, how he became a father now and is parenting differently because of that. Actually, Matt's mom, Phyllis, has been friends with my mom for my whole life, but I actually never met Matt until now, and it was a delight to talk to him about this. I think his introspection is really amazing, and the book was really lovely. This is a great Father's Day gift, by the way. So it's called Restrung, Fatherhood in a Different Key. It's good for new dads. It's good for old dads or whoever. And women, I got a lot out of it myself seeing the male point of view and anybody grieving. I mean, it's you know? Anyway, Matt Fogleson is a writer and former lawyer whose true passion in music is primarily of the classic rock variety. Reese Drung examines father son relationships, the pain of early parent loss, and the importance of embracing your passions, all framed by a lifelong love affair with music. His Substack Fine Tuning blends personal storytelling with a love for the music that makes sense of life, centering on new artists and the intersection of music and parenting. His work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Scary Mommy, and NPR. Matt resides in Oakland, California. I hope you enjoy this lovely meditation on family and loss and love. Welcome, Matt. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Restrung Fatherhood in a Different Key. Congrats on your book. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. Oh, you have a lot of really poignant, meaningful themes in the book. Love, loss, family, fatherhood, music, growing up, the city, Jewish stuff. You, like, packed a a big punch in here and and got a lot in, and, it was really a a beautiful ride to see where your life took you and how you navigated grief and all that. So I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I appreciate that. That was my sort of summary. Why don't you why don't you talk a little bit about why why write this book? What what was this book about? What did it do for you? Sure. Sure. So the book is sort of about a memoir about coming to grips with the death of my father when I was in college. He died of cancer

[4:38]Matt Fogelson: and the realization I didn't really know him. My effort to not pass down that emotional distance that I felt from him and that I feel is almost endemic sort of to the father son relationship in some ways, to not pass that on to my own son. And hopefully solving for that in part by sharing with my son my passion for music, so he knows what makes his dad tick, which is something I never knew about my own dad. And it sort of came about, certainly after my father died, but maybe even a little bit before that, certainly when he gave me the prognosis, kind of had this dark cloud hanging over me for decades, really. And I mean, wasn't debilitating. It wasn't like I was curl up in the fetal position at home or something. And in fact, a friend of mine, a close friend who read the book was sort of shocked to learn that I kind of was probably clinically depressed. But nonetheless, you know, I sort of felt this weight. And particularly after my son was born, which is, you know, obviously a very joyous thing, there were these moments of unbridled joy. But most always it was met with some sort of opposing, I won't say equally opposing, but some sort of opposing kind of darkness and sadness. And so for me, the writing became a way to kind of try and kind of mine some of those emotional veins and exorcise some of that. So that's sort of where the book came from. And did it help? Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. It was funny. It was like I sort of had trouble landing the plane and ending the book. And I think part of it was I didn't want to let my father go. Know, I felt like in a way that was gonna, you know, this is deeply buried stuff. But I think that might have been part of what was going on. And then finishing the book, was like, okay, you know, I've I've done it. I've kind of explored these issues and these themes. I kinda understand, you know, how my reactions were influenced. My life has been influenced by all that. So yeah, I think it's helped. I don't think grief is something you ever totally get over. I mean, I think it's still there, but it's just more more background noise than like this

[7:02]Zibby Owens: brooding thing hanging over me. Well, in a way, you know, there's this notion of complicated grief where something is not perfect necessarily about the relationship, and then you confront both that and the loss. And I feel like in the book, you were showing us the times you you would have wanted to feel closer and wondering, did he regret? Like, you have a moment where he is saying, gosh, I would have done it differently had I known. And you're like, well, would you have parented differently? Is that what you mean? Or would you have stayed at the office? Would you have you you have this lovely image at one point when he's telling you and your brother about his diagnosis where he takes the papers from his high power attorney job and tucks them under one of the plastic straps of a beach chair so they wouldn't fly away. And I just love that. Like, a a dad who just can't totally, know, disconnect. And what does that do to the family? Even when right after he tells you this really intense emotional thing, and yet there it is. So I feel like part of the book, and you do a nice job weaving in music and all of that, was you just being like, well, what was the distance really about? And you go into, like, your grandpa Dave, and I don't know. Did you did you come to terms with that? And then the letter that you find that he writes you later, like, talk about about that and how you can recalibrate, like, your thoughts on on him as a dad even post facto.

[8:27]Matt Fogelson: Yeah. Yeah. So I I feel like I did come to understand him a lot better. You know, there there I did come across a memoir of sorts that my grandfather, as you mentioned, his his father Dave wrote. It's like this 40 page single space typewritten thing. And what was fascinating to me about it was there were six sentences about my dad, and it was just the facts. Jimmy was born here on this date. He went to this school, graduated, married this Yeah. Mom, whatever, then that was it. Similarly, like his wife, my grandmother, very short shrifts. It was basically 40 pages of his career as as a lawyer. I mean, first few pages are are like a Hollywood script of kind of the Jewish immigrant experience, you know, Ellis Island, no money, and kind of a bootstrap situation. But after those first five pages, it's just about work. And it really was sort of stunning to me to read that. No foibles discussed with my dad or cute stories or anything. And so it kind of gave me the impression of what life must have been like for him growing up in that household. And as I say in the book, I think this desire for sons to feel close to their dads is like so powerful, right? And I think for my dad, I think work became the way for him to feel his dad's love and the way to keep his dad close. And so if that meant kind of treating us second class citizens, well, that's sort of what had to happen. So I think that was something I hadn't really thought about before. And did he have regrets about that choice later? Maybe, maybe. I don't know. These are things and one of the things I mentioned in the book, we didn't really talk about this I mean, felt loved by him. I'm not saying this was a horrible situation or anything, but it's like we never even after he was diagnosed and given, as he put it, five years on the high end, we never talked about the fact that he might die or was going to die. Know, he just sort of, pretended, I guess, or maybe he really believed that he was gonna beat it. And so there were just it seems like that would have been a good opportunity to kind of open up. I mean, I was 19. It's not like I was a child Right. When he was diagnosed, but he just wasn't his thing. And I think some of that came from a place of love, right? I think he was trying to I was in college. I don't think he wanted to bum me out. On the other hand, it was this I just looking back on it, it's like incredible, this sort of wall that we had built up. We just couldn't break through to each other. And yeah. It's kinda too bad. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[11:27]Zibby Owens: Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[14:23]Zibby Owens: If he could read this or if he was, like, looking down, so to speak, you know, not to be woo woo, but what do you think he would make of you investigating your relationship with him? I mean, you you you take us through such tender moments, like the one time you went to chemo with him and you were like, I don't he probably didn't care that I was here and we both just read and we barely talked. And and then you have to take your formerly really strong, you know, powerful dad and just, like, usher him into this taxi. And then he could barely get into the apartment, and and then later that night, you wait at the door as he's, like as you hear him vomiting, and you don't know whether or not to go in, and instead you just, like, walk past and go back to your room. I don't know. I found that to be one of the more heartbreaking moments of the What would he think of all this?

[15:08]Matt Fogelson: Yeah. That's a good question. I think he would be pleased with it. He I do, as I say, I sort of came to understand him a little bit better. I think he would probably read it and feel a little sad maybe that because I do feel like if he had known sort of how was, how that sort of impacted me, that he would have made a change. I think there was a blind spot there. Mean, I think any mean, certainly if I was aware that somehow what I was doing or how I was parenting was impacting my son negatively, I would move heaven and earth to remedy that. There's an understanding of that. I think he would sort of cut me some cut himself and me some slack there. And there's also, I think it comes through that we were close in a way. There was sort of just this unspoken love, which is powerful in its own way. But it just would have been, I don't know, so much better to have it expressed in the real world rather than, as you mentioned, this letter that he wrote when he was diagnosed and which got handed to my brother and made his funeral by one of his law partners. It was a very nice note. He expressed some emotion in there that he was not capable of doing, I guess, to our face. But it would have certainly

[16:39]Zibby Owens: been nice to have those moments in the real world. I was also interested in that letter, by the way. And I know our moms have known each other for a very long time, but how he talked about some regrets he even had about his marriage and yet didn't write a goodbye note to your mom. And she's like, oh my gosh. He didn't even write me a letter.

[17:00]Matt Fogelson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so one of one of the lines in there, which is actually something I've taken hearts in this letter was sort of like, I think he viewed it as his sort of last chance to pass on his, you know, fatherly wisdom. He said, you know, don't don't ever be afraid to tell your Phyllis, my mom is Phyllis, that you love her. Life's too short and unpredictable. And so I showed my mom that, she was like, you never actually said that to me. And that is one lesson. Had to try and say that every day to my wife, because it's it's true. I mean, you just it's just obviously, you never know what's happening down the line.

[17:43]Zibby Owens: It was interesting to see the contrast with their relationship and then you and embarking on your own relationship and the closeness with your wife. And, you know, you take us through I feel like that you're outrebound in Alaska where you're just literally, like, disconnected, trying to overcome. Like, if that's, like, the embodiment of the challenge of the book, right, is can you get through this? But then you take us into this really sort of peaceful, loving dynamic, which you've recreated for your own family. So when you read that and write that, like, do you see that trajectory and end up feeling really good? Do you feel good about what you've created? And how old is Jed now, by the way?

[18:25]Matt Fogelson: He's 20. He's 20. Oh my gosh. He's in college now. Yeah. So the book book kind of ends with him. I guess he's probably at his bar mitzvah, basically. Yeah. But yeah, so he's 20 now. He told me last night that he actually just started reading it. He's up to chapter five. He's actually in that Alaska chapter. We'll see if he gets through it. As I say in the book and still feel, there are still moments where I feel like I struggle with that issue of closeness. I think it's a lifelong project. And I don't know if that's just because my grandfather instilled it in my dad and my dad instilled that sadness or distance in me that I just it's just really hard to shake. I mean, I think I've come a long way from where my dad was. Will say that. And so I definitely feel good about that. I don't think, you know, that my son wonders who I am. Mhmm.

[19:20]Zibby Owens: Well, certainly not after this book. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If he gets through. Yeah. Got rid of that got rid of that problem.

[19:26]Matt Fogelson: Yeah. I mean, know, he knows who my friends my friends are. Like, something I didn't even know about my dad. Like, who who who were his friends growing up? Like, what what was he into? Like Mhmm. So I think he at least knows all that about me, which for some reason I feel is important.

[19:43]Zibby Owens: Of course, it's import I mean, how you get close to people. The role of music, let's talk about that for two seconds because you include so many different performers from Pearl Jam to Bruce Springsteen and, you know, obscure bands and one time where you, like, jump on stage and you're performing with, like, a band in these villager. I don't know where you were. And how and you have a of course, you open with this beautiful scene of you singing to your son and how music is a through line in many, many ways in in in your life. Talk a little bit about the importance of that. Yeah.

[20:14]Matt Fogelson: So yeah. So music was always something that was really important to me as a kid. You know, it was something that I, you know, spent all my time and money on going down to Greenwich Village, as you mentioned. I grew up in the city, buying records and going down there with my friends and going to concerts. One thing about growing up in New York is, like, all our favorite bands came through, so we were super lucky. So I went to a lot of shows. But there was something I've never really thought that music was something that I could really take on. It was a hobby. It wasn't something that serious people pursued. And I was a serious person. Like all my parents' friends were professional types. I didn't know anybody who was really that into music or really into anything, frankly. So other than my aunt Wendy, who is a pivotal figure in this book, my mom's sister, kind of a flower child, definitely of a different world, ended up having this outsized influence on me as I kind of recount in the book. But so I never really took on music in any kind of serious way. I mean, played guitar, played a couple of shows with some friends in high school, but it was really only after and I became, you know, became a lawyer and did all that professional stuff. And it was really only after my son was born that I reconnected with with that because I it just sort of came out of me this this desire to to sort of express who I was. And it turned out that's who I was. Mhmm. And I started a music blog and and all this stuff. And so it kinda helped wake me up to this idea that, am I living the life that I wanna be living? Obviously, we all have external constraints imposed on financial health or whatever, but sometimes we also impose some constraints on ourselves. So that's kind of one of the themes of the book. And I feel like I definitely did that to try and maybe keep my dad close, was to kind of take on his persona as the lawyer. I mean, I literally wore his suits to work. But so music and so it kinda helped show me the way a little bit, but also it just it was like therapy for me when I was going through that period, particularly that grunge Mhmm. You know, period. I kinda my dad died in 1991. So it was like right when grunge exploded and that music to me, particularly Soundgarden and Pearl Jam was like, I don't know, it was like medicine or something. I mean, I would just it created this space where I could kind of be myself. I didn't have to tell people I was okay. I could just put those headphones on and enter this world of just sadness and feel those emotions in a way that society kind of discourages sort of in public. And it was a real lifeline for me. And I would kind of come out of those listening sessions kind of feeling revived, like I could carry on. And particularly, you know, not to turn this into a music blog discussion, particularly like Soundgarden and Chris Cornell and just the rawness and the screaming, literally screaming in some of that music. He screamed for me when I couldn't scream. I didn't know what to do. I was kind of roiled with all this grief and sadness and and anger. And I couldn't really scream. You know, I was in law school, I had a roommate. I was in New York, I didn't have a car. I could drive around and scream, you know, and and so, you know, that music was kind of my way to offgas this toxicity and was really a lifeline. And I gotta say, like, even now, decades later, when I listened to that album in particular, Super Unknown, brings me right back in in a in a way that I feel like it it was a gift, that album. It was dark. But it I don't know. Now it's still like a portal into this, you know, part of me that I I am and was. So yeah. So music is is definitely a big big deal in the book and my life.

[24:25]Zibby Owens: Oh, I love that. I mean, we think about all the different things that can help us through grief and, like, there are all these different pieces of advice, but screaming at the top of your lungs to grunge music from the nineties, you know, that's not, like, top of the list for most people. So now, like, this is if nothing else, this conversation can

[24:44]Matt Fogelson: give people another perhaps unexpected tool for processing and getting rid of all that rage. Yeah. I mean, I thought of it, you know, if if you're if you're gonna just go out in public and scream, probably New York City is not a bad place to do it. Oh, yeah. Probably passed three people today doing the same thing. Yeah. I don't know. That didn't occur to me that actually you could just go out and start spinning. Better

[25:05]Zibby Owens: that you didn't. Could have ended up with some extra problems. Yeah. Right. Well, Matt, thank you so much for the book, showing us what it feels like to both lose your dad and parent your son at the same time. I there aren't a lot of books where men open up in this way even though to the this particular moment in time and the processing, and I think it's really helpful. I have to introduce you. There's another author, David Israel, who's has a book coming out soon called The Last The Last Mozart or anyway, I feel like you two would get along. I'm gonna introduce you after this. Yeah. He'll come on the podcast soon, but musician and grief and anyway. But there there are few and few of you and far between, and I I applaud you all. Oh, well, thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah. Alright. Thanks so much, Matt. Yeah. Take care. Thank you, Susan. Really appreciate it. Okay. My pleasure. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.