Art, Family, Escape and Reinvention in Saoirse with Charleen Hurtubise

[1:24]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or under rated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens.

[2:07]Charleen Hurtubise: I interviewed Charlene Hurtubaiz, the author of Saoirse. I'm sorry. I'm probably saying that wrong. S a o I r s e, Saoirse, a novel on Zoom, unfortunately, but she was around the country, around the world at the time. So this is what we do. She was in Ireland. Charlene is a novelist, essayist, and artist, and the author of the polite act of Drowning, which was published in Ireland and The UK in 2023. Saoirse is her US debut. Charlene holds a masters of something, m dot s c dot, from Trinity College Dublin and an MFA in creative writing from University College Dublin where she facilitates creative writing seminars. She is the sixth sister in a family of nine, and she spent much of her childhood in Michigan, her early adult years in Boston, and has now lived half her life in Ireland, which is home, which actually is a bit concerning because there is a woman in the book around whom the book centers who escapes The US with a false identity and moves to Dublin. And I'm hoping that was not the case for Charlene, but I guess we'll never know. Though she lives in Dublin with her Irish family, the pull of Donegal never leaves and continues to influence her drawings and writings, including Saoirse. By the way, Charlene was incredibly, incredibly patient with me because for whatever reason, my messages on my computer kept digging for about fifteen minutes, and I kept trying everything and do not disturb didn't work. And I finally had to restart everything and restart the Zoom, and it was kind of a pain and incredibly disruptive. So she had to repeat a lot of this. So sorry for that. Sometimes my Apple setup just malfunctions, and so it did. So thank you to Charlene for her graciousness. Hi, Charlene. Thanks for coming on Totally Booked to discuss Saoirse, your novel. Congratulations. Thank you, and thanks for having me. My pleasure. First of all, can I just say this is one of the most beautiful covers I have ever seen? Tell me about tell everybody about the cover. It's a portrait of a landscape with water and sky. It looks like you can see the canvas underneath rocks, and it's just absolutely gorgeous. It's gorgeous, isn't it? And it's an artist who lives actually, I think she spends some of her time in Donegal, which is where, you know, settings and part of it in, I believe Northern Ireland. So she, her name is Emma, it's on the back and I have to Emma Cowrie and she is an artist, a landscape artist, and Celadon found her. And I think what a find, she has absolutely beautiful, beautiful work and she paints. I think she focuses in that area and she also focus over in England, but you can find her on the website. If I'd known, I would have No. No. I took you off guard. I will we'll try we'll find it and put it in the show notes. Somewhere, but she's yeah. No. She's absolutely stunning, Stunning artist. Well, it's important also that the cover be representative of art since that is such a huge part of the book. The main character is an artist and starts off with her upcoming exhibit. She's worried that it will reveal all these secrets from her past, she is a mastermind at using art to deal with her feelings and everything else and has received so much acclaim for it. So so it better be a good artist on the cover, basically. Exactly. Yeah. And good summary as well. Yeah. Well, maybe do a better job. Why don't you tell listeners what your book is about? Okay. Well, so it opens in Donegal in 1999 with Saoirse, an artist who seemingly is living an idyllic life. She is living in a house by the sea with her two beautiful daughters, her gorgeous partner Dahi, and everything seems to be just, idyllic. But she has secrets and we soon find out she has secrets. And so she's an American on the run. She has stolen an identity and she has come over to Ireland and on a false passport and built a false identity and is living a life. And she only meant to stay temporarily, just kind of lie low from some trouble she was having, and then she accidentally built a life. So when you have a character running from the past, how did you think of what she should like, what came first? Were was it the issue she was running from? Was it the art? Was it the new family? Was it like, which piece of this jumped out at you and encouraged you to to get going on this novel? Yeah. So interestingly, so it was a few new stories over the years, which kind of played to my imagination. So for some reason there, I wouldn't call it a trend, but there were times where people would kind of, what do you call it, kind of slip into Ireland on Detective, live their life on the run for some reason, and then be discovered. And usually it was a discovery for some other reason, you know, detected by somebody not, you know, the system just seemed to not find them. And I don't know if it was just because their systems weren't joined up at the time or what have you. And this is in the 2000s. And it just made me think if this is the 2000s before technology, before, you know, our footprint, our digital footprint, like what would that be like in the 90s before technology was prevalent? So it really that played to my imagination. He's gorgeous. I'm sorry. Thank you. My dog is in the background. It just really played to my imagination. So that came first, that piece of a girl on the run slipping into Ireland, you know, has a passport. You made it sound so easy. She just, like, swipes her friend's passport and, like, sticks it in her bag, shows it. Luckily, the man on the plane next to her shows her how to flash it when she lands, and that's it. I mean Yeah. It made me feel like I better lock up my own passport. Who's gonna take these passports? How easy is it? I mean, now they have all the, you know, optic identification, but wow. I don't think you'd get away with it. I really don't think you'd get away with it nowadays. And that's also part of the reason why it has to be written kind of in the nineties as well, so up through 2000. It would be fun if you tried just to see what would happen and say, it's research for the book. Do you know what's so funny though? Just this morning, there was, you know, how all these things pop up on your newsfeed. There were these two little boys back in the eighties who got on a plane without their parents. They were about 10 or 11 years old. They wanted to go meet a member of the A Team. And they literally slipped through. They just pretended they were with the next people in line, like the parents, their parents. They got all the way to New York City and undetected. And they just you know, could you imagine? Can you imagine the audacity of that? Well, I always thought it was a little bizarre. I mean, I travel with my kids a lot that you don't need you have to go through so many hoops to get them passports and all this identification. And then you get on a plane, and until they're 18 or so, you don't even need to show any identification. Like, what is what is that about? But yet you can't let them fly alone because then they need multiple forms and everything. But you could just fly with anybody. Not you know? Right? Really? And is that just in in The US, or is that not international? Or is it Not international. Internationally, you need a passport. Yeah. But within The US, I could be with any kid. And the most they'll say is, what's your name? Who are you with? And they'll be like, my name's whatever, and I'm with my mom. That is I don't know. It seems like there's a a little bit of a of a loophole that A loophole. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, getting off track. It's so interesting though, isn't it? These are the things that make novels, these thoughts, you know, when you kind of get a little piece of, you know, a thread and you just pull it and pull it and pull it and all of a sudden. So like you say, those you know, that was the first element, though. Interesting. That was the first element. So you gradually show us how she ends up there and Sarah, quote, unquote, and you take us back first to a scene where her mother leaves her with her grandmother. She doesn't really understand what's going on. She has this little lavender oil, which now becomes a focus of the art years later. Talk a little bit about that sense of abandonment because it felt so visceral, and there was this tugging that went on where the grandmother seemed to wanna keep her. She wanted to leave. There was the stepfather or father. She didn't know who he was at the time. And she was like, whatever I do, I wanna grab on with my legs so tightly to my mom and not let go. It felt like this primal urge. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah. So and I I think that's you know, that is children, whatever situation they're in. You know? They want their primary caregiver, no matter what that sense is. And, you know, I think that is, you know, this is, well, Sarah at the time and who became Saoirse, that's her and all of her resilience, you know, all of her, you know, those are her formative years. And I think it plays into that fact that when she becomes a mother and the reason also why she isn't going to let this go. She's built this life and she has these children and she does not want to let them down. So she isn't kind of coming clean because, know, all this is great crap, we're just not going to tell anybody and see how long we can. It's not like that at all. It is still preservation. It is still survival. She is in survival mode. And now, so that translates into her children need her and there's no way she's going let down. So I do think there is a parallel between that scene and then the later scenes as well. And even how she resolves that at one stage where she comes back to that moment.

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[15:09]Charleen Hurtubise: Well and the way the way you write about her husband is, like, so arresting that he's so attractive. She has to just go in and start write you know, sketching him right like that. And you I don't know how you did it with just a few sentences, and yet you make it so clear who this guy is, the vibe, like, what you feel when you see him. Did you have someone in mind? Like, who is this guy? Yeah. Who is this guy? I'd like to meet him. Who is he? Yeah. So did I I I kinda had a clear image of, you know, of his presence more than anybody like, Oh, he's like this actor, he's like this person. I think I just had a clear sense of somebody really stable, you know, somebody who is low key, not a big reactor, obviously handsome, but he has his own and you do see a little bit kind of read between the lines that he also has a past. He also has a sense of needing somebody and needing to find somebody like Saoirse. And when they do eventually meet in that scene in the kitchen of the Burns household in Dublin, that's what they see about each other first is the essence of each other. And, you know, love at first sight or whatever you call it, but there is just something. And I think what he does is, you know, it's more than just his looks, it's more than all that. It's he soothes her sense of hypervigilance. He soothes the sense of her being in survival mode all the time. And with him, she can finally breathe. She can finally let go for a while, but it's also the source of tension, isn't it? You know? Like, you know, like, the more the longer the better it becomes and the longer she hangs on, the more she has to lose. So Yeah. Well, the stakes become very high very fast, and you're alternately rooting for her and wondering and waiting to find out what happened, and it keeps the momentum going while your prose is so beautiful along the way. So it's like you're painting these beautiful pictures, and yet there's this plot element that has us you know, really keeps us guessing and questioning everybody. Like, who is the guy on the plane next to her? And is this you know, all all the things, which is great. Tell me a little about when you were writing it, what that process was like, and was it the kind of thing where you're like, oh, this is definitely what has to happen next, or, like, how did this whole thing or did you pick the objects first?

[17:46]Guest: It's do. I

[17:49]Charleen Hurtubise: think I pick the emotions first, if that makes sense. And I always kind of equate it to, like, my kids play Minecraft. I don't know if you're Yes. They do. Yep. But, you know, they have this toolbox and have all these materials and everybody can build something unique, something individual, you know, even though we start this thing. So I think for me, the tools in my toolkit are emotions and it usually does start with something like that. So I knew we had a girl in trouble. I knew I had to get her to Ireland and get her to safety. I think that's why I'm often writing about getting this young woman to safety. It showed up in so many different stories, you know, so there's always that. So you know, she needs something to run from. She needs something, you know, she needs the villains or the, you know, the ones who are, you know, the antagonists or what have you. I think those, slowly, slowly as you unfurl the story, and I wish it were quick. Like I would love to have my lipophone, like here it is, I've written it in six months, but I don't work like that. I think I just labor this and I labor the idea. But those emotions are the basic building block. And from there, know, and it might come, you know, it might be something that you pull up from the past or a moment that made you feel awful. And so you don't build from that moment, but you build on the emotion of that moment for like Paul, for example, to know. And I remember meeting, I have no idea who I'm about to talk about here, but like I brought my son to one of those weekend clinics where you can't go to your regular doctor, but you go to this place where there's like 50 doctors who are on rotation. There was, you know, I walked in and my, he was my four year old at the time, you know, I had him and he's feverish and the doctor says to him or to him, actually, he says to me, mom, I'm speaking to the child. And I was like, and the child's burrowing. And I just thought, my first thought was like, what would it be like to be married to a man like that? From there, and then, you know, put that away. And then a couple of years later when I'm writing this, that emotion and how that made me feel, that sense of control and that people actually exist. Now I have no, like I said, I have no idea who that is, But, you know, he might just have been having a bad morning, but it is that. I think you put all these little emotions in and they come out. You unpack them when you need them. Wow. I love that. I think that's how it works. Think I think you're right. Do you feel that you were running from something? Oh, interesting. And actually, Paul or somebody on the airplane asked them that, I feel, I think all of us are surviving something to some extent. But this is, you know, it's most definitely a piece of fiction, but it is based on an emotional landscape that I would be, you know, I'm not a stranger to this landscape, you know, at times. And so I think when I came to Ireland originally from Michigan, I think it was a much more soothing place, you know, initially, initially. And I do think there was a whole slew of things, Yeah, that I have dealt with over the years, you know, and I think for a while it felt like a safer place. And then you realize it's just like everywhere else. It's just, you know, the things that you're dealing with are slightly altered or, but I'm definitely not running from anything now, you know, but I do think when we're finding ourselves, we always are, you know, I think adolescence into young adults growing into the women that we become, I think we always are in a way. That makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, tapping into those feelings makes it so easy for anyone to jump in because it feels like the accessibility of it is in how we're feeling, not in the circumstances themselves. So by putting something so universal, it allows us all to feel and connect over over that even if this the trappings may look different, but the feelings can be the same. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. What is your hope for this book? What do you want people to take away when they put it down? Do you know it is I think it's written from a survivor's perspective. And I think very often we don't hear that narrative, you know, especially, you know, say it's in the mainstream media, say you're dealing with, you know, powerful men or you're dealing with people with privilege. And what we don't often hear is that, you know, maybe these women, you know, or maybe somebody like Saoirse, she was vulnerable to begin with, do you know? And then she has to go on and find ways to survive. She has to be resilient. She has to be resourceful and she finds that. And I wanted to give a survivor a voice, even with all of her flaws and bad decisions. And I guess what I want for her is empathy, to know empathy that, you know, she made some bad decisions, but she's not a bad person. And I think her sense ultimately of reinvention and coping and was the best that she could do. So, yeah, so I guess I'm always, you know, in getting this girl, first of all, to safety and then put empathy for her and for people in her situation who need it, who really need that. That's what I would love. I would love people thinking about those things, you know, because clearly it's not a it's it's a complex story. It's there's no winners. There's no losers. It's really complex. And I think that's life. You know? So true. Charlene, thank you so much. Thanks for talking about Saoirse and slash Sarah. Thank you for dealing with my technical foibles here and for using your keys to make people who are running feel a little bit better understood and know that there's always the next page to turn to. Thank you, and thank you so much for having me. Okay. Thank you. Stay warm. Thank you. Sorry again.

[24:21]Zibby Owens: Okay. Bye bye. I love these stuff. Yeah. You too. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.