Norah O’Donnell Writes The Ultimate Guide to American Women in U.S. History

[1:17]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. I really enjoyed interviewing Nora O'Donnell and Kate Anderson Brower together on Zoom. They are the authors of We the Women, the Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America, and, boy, did I learn a lot in this book. I read it on an airplane with my pen poised, underlining, dog earring, and then whipped it out over the course of a trip many times taking in different profiles of women in history who not only made news but should have been remembered themselves. I learned even more about The US than I thought I knew and through the eyes of trailblazing women, which was really, really interesting. Nora O'Donnell, no surprise, is a multi Emmy award winning journalist with nearly three decades of experience covering the biggest stories in the world and conducting impactful newsmaking interviews. She is CBS News' senior correspondent, and she focuses on big interviews and projects for the network. She spent five years as the anchor and managing editor of the CBS Evening News, which is the oldest and most revered evening news broadcast in America. She anchors CBS News election specials and is a sixty minutes contributing correspondent. And she's married to Jeff Tracy, otherwise known as Chef Jeff, and and is the mom of three. Kate Anderson Brower is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, The Residence, and First Women, also a New York Times bestseller, as well as Team of Five, First in Line, and the children's books Exploring the White House and The Hill. The Residence is being made into a television series produced by Shonda Rhimes for Netflix, which unfortunately we did not discuss in our interview, but probably should have. Her book, Elizabeth Taylor, is the first authorized biography of the icon. She covered the Obama administration for Bloomberg News. She is also a former CBS News staffer and Fox News producer. Kate has written for the New York Times Vanity Fair and the Washington Post. She lives outside of Washington DC with her husband, their three young children, and their Wheaton terrier. These two women are total dynamos, and should a collection be written about women today, they deserve to have a place in that collection a hundred years from now for all of the research that they uncovered and the women that they spotlit in this book. Welcome, Nora and Kate. We have both of you here. So excited. Nora O'Donnell, Kate Brower, talking about We the Women, the Hidden Heroes, who shaped America. Congratulations on this huge accomplishment of a book. Congrats. Oh my gosh. Zibby, thank you so much for having us. I feel like this is the the history textbook that we didn't have growing up that we should have in every classroom. This should be, like, required reading at every school. Is that the goal? Tell us a little bit more. Oh my gosh, Sibby, you're so nice to say that. You know, I love history, but I must say I feel like a lot of the history that I learned in school was pretty boring.

[4:51]Norah O'Donnell: And I think the reason is because it was mostly about men in history. And, you know, Kate and I started off writing this book almost three years ago as a way to celebrate America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday. And what I didn't realize is that this would actually unlock something in me personally. And so the goal was to lift up women's stories, lift up women's voices, and then we ended up over this three year period doing all the research and calling each other and being like, I never heard of this woman. She's unbelievable. Can you believe this? And so I think, Kate, would you agree that was sort of, you know, the goal in our intention started as one thing, but then it turned out to be such a labor of love. How

[5:33]Kate: about you, Kate? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think like Nora, I consider myself a history buff, but I hadn't heard of so many of these women. And we got to know the scholars who have been studying these women like Mary Beth Norton. And I remember reading her work at the time about the American Revolution and just to know that she kind of created women's history, the study of women's history, that people hadn't even bothered to look at these stories before. And I think we this book to be part of that long and hopefully growing

[6:08]Zibby Owens: group of books about women and their role in American history. I'm always so surprised when there's someone who was so well known in their day, and yet we have no idea who they are now. And I feel like that keeps coming up in the book. You know, I think about the Amanda Gorman like poet, Phyllis I think her name Phyllis Wheatley. Was that Phyllis Wheatley? Phyllis Wheatley. Right. Who was just known by everybody with the president. Like, everybody knew what a talent she was, and yet then she first of all, that she passed away so young and accomplished so much. And yet, where was the record of that? And it only just came up you know, how did you find her?

[6:44]Norah O'Donnell: You know, it's a great point you make. Amanda Gorman, who, of course, is the celebrated poet who spoke at Obama's inauguration, she actually says that Phyllis Wheatley is one of her heroes. And Phyllis Wheatley was an enslaved girl who was brought from Africa. She was named after by the family that enslaved her, after the ship that brought her. And they actually taught her how to read and write. And she ended up being the poet laureate of the American Revolution.

[7:12]Zibby Owens: Who knew? One of the first Black women published ever.

[7:16]Norah O'Donnell: And of course, her ideals of freedom, which she tied closely to her own enslavement, to the enslavement of the idea that Americans did have freedom under British control, inspired George Washington, inspired others. And so she's a remarkable story in the beginning part of this book. What I like to think of, we talk a lot about the founding fathers of America, but there were a lot of founding mothers -Mm in America. One of my favorite stories, of course, too, we start off as well, is Mary Katherine Goddard. I mean, July 4, we talk about the Declaration of Independence, and those 13 words are some of the most important in American history, right? We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. And there's actually a woman's name on the Declaration of Independence. I mean, we all know John Hancock's signature, of course, Adams, but she printed the first official copy of the Declaration of Independence. And, you know, I think too, in in restudying American history, it's like, yeah, remember actually how dangerous and treasonous it was to put your name on the Declaration of Independence? So she risked her life. A brave and courageous woman to put her name on that document. She didn't put M. K. Goddard. She put Mary Katherine Goddard.

[8:32]Zibby Owens: And then as we tell in the book and you have to read, she was later fired from her job. Well, I love that you put this publisher basically as the the badass of the book. You know? Like, I just love it that she went against all her fear and just did it anyway, and and yet nobody pays a lot of attention to the the name and that it's not on every document, but it is on some and the one that's in the museum or whatever you said. It's just amazing, which is truly amazing. All the stories, though, have something like that, something that you're like, wow. I can't believe that, or isn't that interesting? And I'm sure uncovering it all was absolutely fascinating. I also really liked Deborah Sampson, the war fighter. Can I read a little bit about this from the book? Yes. You said Deborah Sampson was one of the first women to take a bullet for America after she secretly joined George Washington's army when she was 21 years old. Until her death in 1827, she had a musket ball lodged in her body, one of the many injuries she endured as a trailblazing woman warrior. But for Deborah, the pain of her injuries was nothing compared to the sickening terror she felt at the possibility of being discovered. She would rather die on the battlefield than have it be known that she was a woman disguised as a man. And then later you say, she was not the only woman to disguise herself as a soldier to fight in the war, she may have been the most successful. Excitement and danger surrounded her every day. I can imagine that Deborah may have felt that for the first time in her life, she mattered. I found this so interesting, perhaps also because I recently interviewed Jenny Wallace about her mattering book. I'm sure you know her. Yes. Talk a little bit about that and how all these women came to matter. And we want these stories and lives to matter.

[10:12]Norah O'Donnell: And that's why we are telling this story. I'm almost going to get emotional about saying that because their lives were so revolutionary and so extraordinary. And what Deborah Sampson did to disguise herself to fight in the American Revolution and the fear that she faced about being discovered, then went on the road and was able to tell her story in a public way, as we tell in the book. You know, Kate and I were talking about this earlier. There's so many examples in this book of women who fought for this country, who took a bullet for their country, and yet didn't even have the right to vote. Doctor. Mary Edwards Walker was the first female surgeon in the US Army during the Civil War. She was there at Bull Run and Fredericksburg. The bloodiest battles of the Civil War was imprisoned. And now to this day, she is the only woman to have received the Medal of Honor. There are more than 3,500 people who have received it. She received it from president Andrew Johnson, who took over after president Lincoln. Then it was taken away from her in 1917 because she wasn't technically in the Army because she was a woman then, and they didn't let them. She refused to give it back. She worked every day until she died. And like my sister is a surgeon in the Army, so they know about Doctor. Mary Edwards Walker. But these are such brave and courageous women, and I know one of Kate's favorite stories too is about the Hello Girls, which we were talking about earlier today because it should be a movie. Yeah.

[11:37]Kate: Yeah. I mean, to me, book one of the things that sums up the book for me is a quote by one of the Hello Girls. And these are women who were switchboard operators during World War I. So before women had the right to vote, they were on the front lines to convince general to the troops in the trenches during this very bloody war. They were sent over in 1918. They were in France, this incredibly dangerous place to be during World War I. And at one point, their switchboard operating headquarters was actually on fire. It was almost burned to the ground and they refused to leave their posts because they knew that every second counted. And at one point they were even threatened with court martial. If they didn't leave, were going to risk their lives to stay there. And afterwards they came home and as Nora is saying, they were not treated as members of the military. They didn't get benefits. There was no great parade for these women when they got back and they had to fight and fight throughout their entire lives. And we know that until 2024 that Joe Biden kind of gave him the congressional gold medal for their work. But the quote that I love that just has really stuck with me and all this exhaustive research that Nora and I did was from Merle Egan Anderson, who was one of the Hello Girls. And she said just simply, love my country. Consequently, I want that country to be worth loving.

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[15:54]Zibby Owens: Well, I love stories like that. These are all really empowering stories, and you do it all. Each story is just maybe, what, three or four pages, like little snippets, but yet you dive deep into each woman's life. And in so doing, give us the context of what was going on in history at the time. So you could almost rewrite you've almost rewritten the narrative of history through these stories versus the stories we've been told a million years. So it's not necessarily that you're just adding interesting stories about women. Like, this is literally the story of America and the many things that have happened to us as a nation with just a slightly different lens, which I think is so important because there's often too much focus on just, oh, yeah, women tried to get the right to vote. Like, that gets so much attention, which is important, obviously, obviously. But there's so many other important things that have happened that you shed light on. Yes. And, you know, whether it was from the battlefield

[16:48]Norah O'Donnell: to the courtroom for fighting for equality in sports or in business, all of these incredible stories which we tried to take and find women from different parts of, you know, American history and different fields. I mean, one of my favorite people that I learned about is Constance Baker Motley. We all know Thurgood Marshall, right? Well, his right hand was a woman named Constance Baker Motley, who was there to litigate every major struggle of the civil rights era. She was MLK Jr. Defense attorney in Birmingham. When Martin Luther King Jr. Gave that speech, the I Have a Dream speech in 1963, who was standing with him on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial? Constance Baker Motley. And when Thurgood Marshall becomes the first Black Supreme Court justice, Constance Baker Motley probably should have succeeded him at the NAACP, Lille Defense Fund, but it was a man who succeeded her. But you know what? One door closed and another one opened, and then she ended up going to the New York State Senate. She was then appointed to the federal bench and became one of the most important female judges in America and inspired Katanji Brown Jackson, who is now on the Supreme Court. She inspired Kamala Harris. So there were little girls at the time who knew of her, she inspired them. And so, I do hope, too and part of when reading about a lot of these women, I kept thinking, I wonder how my own sense of self and courage and power would have changed by my own possibilities and my own power if I had learned about these women in school. So interesting. Well, you started off by saying that it did end up changing you in a fundamental way. How so? You know, I think, Zibby, I'm a journalist, so I ask questions of people. I don't usually have people ask me questions, and my opinion is not important because I'm a journalist and I'm objective. But I find myself finding my own voice in learning about the power of these women and what they endured, you know, and how they still maintain such confidence. You know, most of the stories in this book are about hidden heroes, but we did include a chapter on Eleanor Roosevelt. And while many biographies have been written about her, Kate and I talked about this, and Julie Morris, who is our researcher, walked on this because we tried to find stories about her because I just can't believe that I don't know more about Eleanor Roosevelt. I mean, her she's orphaned by age nine. Her mother kind of insulted her a lot, called her Little Granny. And yet she goes on to be a moving force in American history for fifty years. I mean, was a shadow commander in chief in many ways, traveling the world through World War II. I mean, Kate found this incredible anecdote about mean, her the White House usher had to send her new shoes because she wore them thin from just traveling so much. She lost 30 pounds on a trip around the world visiting with soldiers. And she endured rejection. Her husband cheated on her. I mean, and she nursed him back to health. And yet Eleanor Roosevelt was so prolific. She had a newspaper column that went on for nearly fifty years. 300 press conferences. Like, how do I not know all of that? Like, how is that not seared into my memory? And I just think, now if more little girls knew about that, would more little girls wanna run for office?

[20:11]Zibby Owens: Run for the presidency? I don't know. I think maybe. Have you seen the the show? I can't remember if it was called First Ladies. I think it was, but it was a show that profiled four of the first ladies, interspersed maybe three three or four of the stories. It was so good. Well, Kate has written so much about them. Yeah. Yeah.

[20:28]Kate: Yeah. There was something CNN did that was really amazing about the first ladies. And it's just like, again and again, no matter how much you think you know, there is so much more that we don't know. And there were so many times when Nora, Julie, and I would just be like, can you believe this? And I do think it would help girls and young women and older women everywhere to feel the confidence that these women showed in times of great adversity.

[20:57]Zibby Owens: It's really it was very inspirational working on this book. I bet. Nora, not to pry, but why do you feel that even though you are a journalist and obviously you have to be objective in most of your reporting,

[21:09]Norah O'Donnell: that you can't share how you feel about it. Like, people wanna hear how you feel too. You know that. Right? Yes. Absolutely. My feelings are important. Everybody's feelings are certainly important. But I mean, in terms of, you know, my life is listening, you know, and listening to people and gathering stories. And so, while I certainly represent those stories and retell those stories, you know, it's their story that's important. Excavating the truth of a matter is what a journalist does. That's what we did, was excavate the stories of these women's lives in some ways. But I did feel something awakening in me by listening and learning about these women. You know, women who fought on the front lines, women who were in courtrooms across America. And then kind of also, too, just, like, what lies ahead. I mean, I've been trying to write about women and tell women's stories as a journalist for a long time, and I keep waiting for that moment when there will be equality in terms of in the business field and in the political field. And still, it's hard to believe that on the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of America, that women are just about a quarter of, you know, federal office in Congress or less, that we don't have equality in terms of female governors. It's changing slowly, you know? Slowly it is. But shouldn't we be further along in that that journey? So I think by celebrating and highlighting the stories of women, I hope that it allows more women to see that using our power for great things within community. And that's actually that's the other thing I think we discovered too. We wrote a lot about how women used community so much to change the course of history. You know, Harriet Beecher Stowe said women are the real architects of society. They are. They're behind every great social and political movement in America, from the abolitionist movement, civil rights movement, suffrage movement. They are. Women really are. And how did you become a journalist? Can you just share a little bit about your own career trajectory? Oh, sure. So, my, father was drafted during the Vietnam War, and so I grew up as an army brat traveling the world. And so what happened in the world always mattered to my family. It affected us. And my parents always had tons of newspapers all over the, you know, dining room table and Time and Newsweek and JAMA, which is a medical journal. Everyone was reading in my house growing up. And then I also think because we watch the news every day, I truly admired Barbara Walters. And I thought, Who is this woman who gets to interview the most powerful people in the world? And that's why I do fundamentally believe. To see it is to believe it. And I think and luckily, you know, Barbara and I got to know each other and become friends that, you know, she inspired in me an idea like, Wow, I could hold a front row seat to history and be a journalist. And so I think that was the combination of my parents' public service and interest in the news and being able to see a powerful woman on television really inspired me to become a journalist. And then I just had many great mentors along the way.

[24:24]Zibby Owens: Amazing. So for both of you, Kate and Nora, after the book ends, whose stories would you want to include? Maybe from people who are alive today making change. In current in current history? Yeah. Or people you see as becoming people who in volume two, for instance. Who has caught your attention lately?

[24:44]Norah O'Donnell: Well, I mean, the last fifty years because the book is broken up into fifty year parts. There's five big parts that make up two hundred fifty years. The last fifty years, we actually really struggled with this because choosing particular women who are in contemporary America, we would leave someone out. Yep. Right? We talked about, you know, certainly, Billie Jean King is in the book, but there are so many great female tennis players of today. We couldn't certainly write about all of them. Or, you know, the four women who are on the US Supreme Court and the six women who have been on the US Supreme Court. So we write about them, in, you know, in parts. I mean, I tried that's why the back chapter is more thematic. Mhmm. But I guess what I would hope is that we if I could focus on I'd focus more on women in national security. And I say that because I believe that in order to get women in the military, which is what I've done as a journalist, because I think ultimately to get to the presidency, that women are gonna need to have a national security or military background in order to crack that glass ceiling. Maybe it should be you. Why do I have a background in national security? But I'm just saying, you know? I mean, I have family members. I mean, it's interesting. We have two governors, new female governors, right? Abigail Spanberger, Virginia, CIA, and Governor Cheryl of New Jersey, of course, who has a military background. They're both Democrats. Condie Rice is in the book, former Republican who many people thought should run for president of The United States. So all of these incredibly important stories, you know, but I don't have a specific person yet, Zippy. Do you have one, Kate? I don't. It's really hard to look at history as it's unfolding.

[26:24]Kate: You know, I think in fifty years you can look back and see who the pivotal players were today. But I think that's why Congresswoman Schroeder is somebody that I know that Nora really wanted to include in the book. And while she has passed away, she is a more modern person who was alive certainly and pivotal in the 90s, 2000s. And that was an example of a woman who I had heard of, but didn't know much about. I mean, fact that she had to share a seat on a committee that she served with the only other person, a black man who was also on the committee, they physically had to share a seat. Just these incredible things that women had to face. And I'm sure in fifty years, you look back at 2026 and there are some women right now who are taking the lead. I agree with Nora that women in the legal, I think we're seeing how important lawyers are now and the work that's being done around the country. A lot of women now are taking a page from Constance Baker Motley. And I think that we're seeing the power of the law in a way that we haven't seen it before in my lifetime. Clearly.

[27:40]Zibby Owens: Amazing. Well, I feel the work that you did, which how long did this take? I mean, I think you mentioned how many years, but I was actually looking back in my emails,

[27:50]Norah O'Donnell: and it's almost three years from the conception of this idea. Almost three years. Yeah. Well, you did

[27:57]Zibby Owens: the work for the rest of us, so thank you for that. Thank you for all the digging. And this is, again, just such a phenomenal accomplishment and so important. And this is how history does get written because then the next generation sees this book, and this becomes part of the conversation and not just a book to promote it when it comes out, but, like, a serious historical document, which will become, I think, really important in the narrative going forward. So congratulations on spending your time now doing this work for the rest of us. It's really impressive. I know you, Zibby, you do it full time, you know, lifting up the voices of authors, but and and females and,

[28:36]Norah O'Donnell: these powerful stories. So thank you for what you do. Oh, thank you. Alright. Well, congratulations.

[28:41]Zibby Owens: Thanks for coming on. We the women. Thank you. Okay. Alright. Take care. Bye bye. Take care. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.