The Harvard You Didn’t Know with J. R. Thornton

[1:09]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram zibbyowans. J. R. Thornton is the author of Lucien, a novel. Born in London, J. R. Graduated from Harvard College in 2014 this is relevant because the book takes place there where he studied history, English, and Chinese. An internationally ranked junior tennis player, he competed for Harvard and on the professional circuit. He was a member of the inaugural class of Schwarzman Scholars, which by the way was founded by my dad, obtaining an MA from Tsinghua University in Beijing. His debut novel, Beautiful Country, which was loosely inspired by experiences he had in Beijing as a teenager, was reviewed by literary luminaries such as Gary Steingart, Mo Yan, and Fried Zakaria. The novel became a bestseller in China, and the film rights were subsequently purchased by WME IMG. His second novel, Lucian, was first published in China in 2024 and ranked among the top 25 best selling new novels of the year. He now lives in Italy working for AC Milan. Welcome, JR. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Lucien. Did I pronounce it right? Lucien? Lucien. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Great. Well, congratulations. What a great book. This is, like, the great Gatsby meets the Thomas Crown affair meets I don't know. I just loved it. I felt like I just watched the whole movie of it. So Amazing. Thank you. No. It's it's super kind words. I appreciate it. Okay. Can we just start by discussing this cover situation? So the cover has changed from the last one. For those listening, I'm holding up two different covers. The the one that is coming out soon is this bright red background with sort of the bottom, some cut off bust of a, you know, like a sculpture. And the other one is a man staring at a photo in what looks like, you know, a curtained beautiful room. And, anyway, just wondering because it rarely happens that you change at this point. So what happened?

[3:40]J. R. Thornton: Totally. So, yeah, a bit of a funny story, but the first cover was the the art gallery kind of background. That one so that was actually the cover that the publisher in China came out with. And at first, Harper Collins wanted to use the same one, and then they ran into a copyright issue and and so it's sort of at this point decided to switch. But I actually love them both. So it Yeah. I I think that the new one's super cool as well, so they worked out. But but yeah. No. They're both great. Intriguing and interesting. Okay. So talk a little bit about about the book. What's it about? Yes. So Lucian is a I called it sort of a campus thriller about two students at Harvard to get mixed up in a scheme to sell fake art. The narrator and and main character Atlas is a super talented artist from a less privileged background who arrives at Harvard on a full scholarship. And at Harvard, he meets his freshman year roommate, Luciano, is a sort of constant golden boy, very charming, handsome, from a wealthy family, kind of good at everything. And Alice is sort of inaudible sky. And over the the course of the book, he effectively becomes manipulated by Lucian into going along with this scheme to self becarte and and then it escalates obviously. But so yeah. I'd say it's it's a novel about identity,

[5:02]Zibby Owens: ambition, reinvention, but hopefully a fun read. Yes. Well, it's definitely a fun read. It's not even Atlas is not even his real name. He gets to campus. Correct. And he's like his he meets this, like, really, you know, sort of handsome, put together guy who's, like, immediately, like, okay, we're changing your name. And that, like, sets the stage. He's like, we're doing what? Are you kidding? And I love Atlas's background too. I mean, you you paint a really realistic portrait. He's lost his father at a young age. His but he's been raised by a single mother with a mentor who has helped his artistic career the whole time and has so much to lose. He has so much riding on this college experience and can't imagine, you know, anything jeopardizing that. And then you have this counterbalance at Harvard, the guy who's like it feels like he's owed this experience there. And what happens when you put those together and who has power when? And I it was really kind of a fascinating dynamic and a great look at male friendship at a time where everyone is trying to figure out who they are.

[6:06]J. R. Thornton: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that that question of figuring out who you are and deciding who you wanna be is is is something that's at the heart of the novel. And I think that's something that is, like, a really universal experience for kids of that age.

[6:18]Zibby Owens: You know, university is a chance to start over, to become someone new, and to kind of shed the identity you you had in high school. And it's something I definitely witnessed a lot with friends at university sort of people trying on different identities, dressing different ways, and figuring out who they wanted to be. So so that is sort of taken to the extreme by by by this novel, but I I thought it was it it touched into something that's that I think is universal. Yeah. I remember in high school at one point, I was so I was always so annoyed at my nickname because I had to keep keep spelling it all the time. It was just like such pain. And was I like, well, maybe I'll go to college and I'll be Elizabeth for the first time and won't that be so cool? And of course, like, no. Did you try? I I didn't even try. Like, half my high school went to college with me. You know, it's like Didn't work. You know, at some point, but I wasn't gonna reinvent myself, but I did toy with you. I'm changing back my name. But I'm glad I kept it. It's all good. It's hard to know. Tell me about your college experience and how it tracked, like, which pieces of this do you feel you experienced or saw in others, or, like, how closely does it align?

[7:26]J. R. Thornton: Just compare and contrast. Yeah. I guess I guess as a disclaimer upfront, I was not involved in art crime when I was at university, so not not autobiographical.

[7:35]Zibby Owens: But Maybe this is your subtle way of admitting it without getting in trouble. Sure. You know, just getting it off your chest. It's okay. We'll take it. No. But I I think that,

[7:44]J. R. Thornton: yeah, after I graduated, I I yeah. Well, I wanted to write a novel that's set at Harvard because I thought it was a a world that is very unique, and it's sort of a bubble unto itself. It's a closed world, but one I felt at that point I understood super well. And so I tried to take, yeah, parts parts of my experience and and bring in I I just thought it was a very rich background for a story. And so that's that's sort of why I said it there. And there's, yeah, aspects that are the experience aspects that are dialed up and down for the sake of the story. But, yeah, I tried to tried to keep it, like, give it an authentic feel of of the campus world. One of the things I I feel like you did particularly well is getting to the heart of who people are

[8:24]Zibby Owens: when when put in really difficult situations. Right? So you you're kind of asking the reader, like, okay, we see how we got to this point. Like, what would I do? I'm not sure. Like, because there are allegiances to and I don't wanna give things away, but there are some moments where it's like, you know, Atlas really tries to stick to his principles, and he knows he does have a good sense of self. And yet, he also wants to be a loyal friend, and he doesn't wanna, you know, come off as, you know, not grateful for all the things that Lucien had given him. And and so, like, what do you do, and how do you navigate these really complicated situations? And that's the best when you're like, I don't I don't know. Could I do this? Could like, and how did he come up with this solution, and what would I have done? Right? Were you ever asking yourself, like, what would I have done in this situation?

[9:19]J. R. Thornton: Yeah. Definitely. And I and I think that that also gets to the heart of the whole sort of manipulation dynamic, and it's it's it's it's always it's taking advantage of gray areas and where you don't quite have enough information to call the other person out, and so you're you wanna believe them and you and then they tap into a sense of guilt or loyalty or whatever push and pull sort of thing they can feel is working. And so I tried to sort of capture that dynamic as well, but it's difficult. And I think that yeah. I think that the character is genuinely torn at those moments, and it's it's you try to put yourself in their shoes, but it's it's it's always impossible unless it's it's you, you know. Who do you see Lucien being played by in the movie version of this? That's a good question. Yeah. I don't know. I I I thought about it for a while. I I've had Soulburn knocked him out. I would've said Jacob Elordi, but Yeah. I was I was gonna say that.

[10:10]Zibby Owens: Yeah. So that I don't I don't think you'd wanna do the same character twice, but he would've been great for it. Yeah. I was literally just thinking. We just saw him on, like, the actors SAG actors awards. My husband's like, you know, he's like the biggest deal ever. And I was like, okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. Okay. Fine. I feel like you could do a whole shop of all the clothes referenced in this book too. Like, you could very much be like, here's how to dress. Here because there's so much in the details of the book with the shirts and the you know, all the things. And, like, the scene where he makes so much fun of Atlas for his JCPenney shirt and, like, the Harvard tie, and he's like, what even is this? What is JCPenney? You know? And he was so embarrassed. He's like, I'm not even gonna go out. And yet, contrast it with, like, all of these, you know, eaten worthy outfits. I don't know. I found it

[11:02]J. R. Thornton: Yeah. Visually interesting. Yes. It's something I thought a lot about because I I think one aspect is changing the name and even, you know, as Alice does and and sort of the first step of adopting identity. And but then there's also the physical aspect. And I read a lot of stories about, you know, true crime stories about reposters and manipulators and con men and stuff. And those are things that they pay attention to because it it helps tell the story of of this identity that you're you're trying to present. And so and then also the hard thing is is deciding how good should that facade be. Should it be a 100% convincing 95, you know, should there be holes in it? And so I think that that was something I sort of tried to get the balance right.

[11:44]Zibby Owens: Amazing. Well, and also your writing style is so beautiful, and I read A Beautiful Country. I read that and loved it as well as I think you know. But take us from you at Harvard, your professional tennis into that, and you were a Schwarzman scholar. You know? Did you know that's my dad? Yep. I I did. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So cool. I'm like, are you going to the reunion?

[12:06]J. R. Thornton: I I'm I'm hoping to. Yeah.

[12:09]Zibby Owens: It's it's it's getting busy now with the book coming out, but but I have my tickets booked themselves, so I'm planning on it. But looking forward to that. Can't believe it's from ten years. It's just crazy. But So crazy. Yeah. I'm I'm planning on being there too, so maybe I'll see you then. Amazing. Okay. Great. Yeah. That'll be great. Yeah. Assuming that the war doesn't derail either. Sure. We'll see what happens. Stay right there. Okay. So so take us through your career and how you even got to Harvard. Like, just give everybody a little background on you.

[12:36]J. R. Thornton: Sure. So I guess so I was born in London, lived there till I was 12. Parents are Americans, so we moved moved back to The States at that point. I spent a year living in China when I was 14, and I was a good tennis player at the time. So I I I spent a big chunk of that year training with the Chinese Junior National Tennis team in Beijing. And those kind of experiences were the sort of foundation for what became my first novel. And I guess, also, I I read a time as a child, which I think is where the love of writing comes from. And my mother's a writer, so she was handing me books, you know, from super young age and no video games, no TV in the house. So my three options were reading, playing sports, or school board basically. So I did a lot of reading and and, yeah, I began writing more seriously in high school, did all the creative writing courses that my my school offered and finished sort of the most advanced one, tried to take it again, and the school told me that you can't take it a second time. But luckily, had an English teacher who said, why don't you try writing a novel as an independent study and I'll I'll sponsor you for it. You can do it with me. To me, that sounded like a lot of work at the age 18 or whatever it was. So I was skeptical initially and he he told me if you turn in a chapter a month, they'll give you an a for the course. I was like, deal. And that was sort of the the first job to Beautiful Country came out of that. At that point, really had no idea what I was doing. So I went away to Harvard, studied writing there under Brett Johnston and Amy Hempel, and learned, you know, how to write it at a craft level and eventually returned to Beat of the Country, rewrote the whole thing after I graduated and and then that yeah. It was my first novel and and simultaneously Ted kept up tennis through the first two years of of two years at Harvard and then put it at that point to focus on writing basically.

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[17:13]J. R. Thornton: It's funny. The so I feel like from a a young age, I love stories about imposters and illusionists, and I love The Count of Monte Cristo. I love The Great Gatsby, Catch Me If You Can. So there's something about that type of story that was appealing to me. And then when I was, I guess, the summer before I got to Harvard or or that that sort of six month period, there was an incident of a senior at Harvard who was a finalist to the Rhodes Scholarship who had this incredible resume on paper, you know, to transfer from MIT, had straight As, had coauthored a bunch of books with famous professors who could speak five or six languages, like ancient Persian and ancient Greek, and was about to graduate with a four o. And And someone on the Rose Committee wrote his essay, realized that it was word for word plagiarized. And then they looked into his background and and realized that everything was was invented. And so that that story really stuck with me because I thought it was so interesting that he, a, almost graduated and had he not gone for this final sort of ultimate accolade, he he would have. And and also that he was able to get that far without anybody sort of realizing

[18:20]Zibby Owens: that he didn't belong there or something. And I thought there was a cool parallel there to the idea of a fake painting, and so that's sort of where those two ideas came together. So interesting. Actually, my husband's a movie producer, and they have a film they're trying to get off the ground called Impostor about someone at Stanford who Oh, really? But it it's it's it was more they weren't even enrolled as a student.

[18:42]J. R. Thornton: Okay. That also happened while I was at Harvard. When when you start looking into these stories, they're more common than you think, which is a little scary then. Yeah. Terrifying. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Amazing.

[18:53]Zibby Owens: Well, just talking about craft for a minute because you write so beautifully even on a sentence level, and you paint such a great picture of the environment and the characters. And tell me about writing this beautifully. Are you spending, like, a really long time on each sentence? Do you outline first and go back and then fine tune the sentences? Like, how do you navigate between sentence ideas,

[19:21]J. R. Thornton: pacing, all of that? Yeah. It's it's a really good question. So I I wrote the first draft of this book in in, like, three weeks, but but that it was a very skeletal draft where I left whole chapters blank because that a, there's a lot of research I had to do, which all the art forgery stuff, for example, I had to read a lot of books on. And so I was like, I'll just come back to this stuff, but I at least wanna get to the end of the first draft. So, like, psychologically, I feel that it's it's not this project that's never gonna end. And then but then from that point on, the the rewriting process was supposed to be years and years, and so that that took a long time. And and, you know, you you take the book as far as you think you can get it, and then you'll show it to people that you trust for their opinions. And and then once you sort of have the plot kind of tightly set up, then then I went back and then, you know, did another few passes at the sentence level. I had a period where I was working on the first and last sentences of every chapter, and I literally stuck out. I printed out pages from books, put them on the wall, chapter openings I liked, and so I was looking at those. And so that was quite, I guess, intentional. But it I I think it's easy to when you're writing, you you don't wanna break the flow by getting too hung up on a single sentence and letting that stop you from finishing a chapter or the scene or whatnot. So I tend to, like, at least try to get something out, and then I'll go back and refine it. But it's different things work for different people, I guess. That's so interesting. I love that. I wrote one novel, and I did the same thing. I went back, and I was like, every chapter,

[20:49]Zibby Owens: first sentence has to be amazing. Like Right. You the it it matters so much. It does. Completely. And it it's like, should I keep reading or not? Like, the I don't know. I think it's underrated. So that's really cool that you printed all that out on the wall and everything. Love that. Yeah. It was something that one of my writing teachers at university said was was,

[21:09]J. R. Thornton: you know, he he had us focus also a lot on the first sentence of short stories. He said, the reality is you're gonna you send these out to journals. They're they're gonna get 50,000 short stories. If they don't like the first sentence, they're not gonna read the second sentence. So first sentence has to be good. First paragraph has to be really good. And the rest of it as well. But but those two are the key, think. So No. It's true. And because

[21:30]Zibby Owens: sometimes I'll start a thing and if I'm not taken right away, like, I don't have a lot of time. Like, you know, you have to capture the you have to capture people's attention. And when I wrote my first novel, like, after business school, I remember, like, a friend of my mom's was, like who was an agent said, have her send me the first 10 pages. And I was like, 10 pages? I'm like, but it really gets good on, like, page 75. Why does she only want the first 10? And now I understand, like, if you can't keep people reading after 10 pages, forget it.

[22:00]J. R. Thornton: Yeah. It's tough. Think also now with just with how many distractions everyone has, and it's probably even more pronounced than it was in the past. But Yeah. We're doomed. I know. I know. Sad. But

[22:14]Zibby Owens: Are you working on a new novel now? I'm not at the moment. I've been

[22:18]J. R. Thornton: after finishing this, I decided to try something try something new for a bit. So I've been working actually in sports for the last couple of years at at EC Milan in Italy. I'm at the office right now, but but I have been thinking a lot. It's gonna be a lot of time to think and to plan out a couple of stories in my head. So I I have a good good plot outline for a sequel to Lucian that that I might might write one day. But at at right now, it's it's tricky to find time. But but it seem but I I miss it though. So I I think it'll it's not not too long before I'm back at it. So. Wow. Well, now I'm totally intrigued about the sequel. Wow.

[22:54]Zibby Owens: Does Grace play a role? I thought, like, she could be a bigger character. That's interesting. I hadn't hadn't thought about that, but I like that idea. Alright. Well, put her in. Yeah. Feel like Okay. She's because she is kind of an accomplice. Like, how did she fall? I don't know. Yeah. Be an interesting viewpoint. Okay. Well, anyway, congratulations. This was great. Thank you so much. Really beautiful. Well done, and I'm excited to see it come out in the world. Perfect. Thanks so much, and Thank you. Look forward to seeing you hopefully in China. You too. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.