Book of the Month Club pick Sally Hepworth’s Mad Mabel

[1:54]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and, obviously, podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, Follow me on Instagram zibby owens. Sally Hepworth is the author of Mad Mabel, a novel. She has been on my podcast several times for her previous books, including in Person in New York City. This one we did on Zoom. Sally Hepworth is the New York Times bestselling author of nine novels, including The Soulmate and The Good Sister. It was fabulous to talk to her about her latest book. She lives in Melbourne, Australia, which is why we were not in person this time. But don't worry, her books have been translated into about 20 languages. And we talked about everything from her recent divorce to her love of writing and how she just does all of it. She is so outstanding, and I am a huge, huge fan. Welcome, Sally. Thanks so much for coming back on Totally Booked to talk about Mad Congrats. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me back. Mad Mabel is such an amazing character. I can see a whole movie type situation about her. Her backstory, oh my which unfolds throughout the book is so great, kind of heartbreaking, but amazing. And I just love how you tied everything together. Oh my gosh. Anyway, it was a thrill to read. Thank

[3:48]Sally Hepworth: you. That means so much. I'm excited for it to be out in The States and and to hear what people think. So do a little better of a job. Explain please what Mad Mabel is about. So Mad Mabel is a book about ostensibly, it's about an 81 year old curmudgeon who lives on a little street in Melbourne, keeps herself to herself, and doesn't really have a lot in the way of community with the exception of her best friend Daphne. And that is all blown up when she discovers that her next door neighbor has died. And through that, the world discovers that at one time, a long time ago, she was known as Mad Mabel, who was the youngest person in Australia to ever be convicted of murder. And so she decides that it is time to tell her story and set the record straight. And so she speaks to a couple of podcasters and tells the story about

[4:49]Zibby Owens: whether she is in fact Mad Mabel and what really happened to her. I love, by the way, that she has her choice of outlet and chooses, like, the two people with the YouTube channel instead of the traditional media. I'm like, alright. Love it. I know. I love that too. And I think it was also

[5:07]Sally Hepworth: one of the things that that she needed to feel safe and secure and and these two young people just brought, you know, the ability for her to do that.

[5:16]Zibby Owens: Yeah. That was really, really amazing. You have this really funny scene about marriage. This is part of the way through the book. And Mabel, as a child, at times lived with Cece and Ness, and they were talking about marriage. And there's a scene where they're saying they're saying, like, ugh. It's not worth getting married, blah blah blah. And it says Ness says, love is wonderful, and and some people do find that kind of love in marriage. But it isn't the only place you find love. I'd rather work at the library and pay my own way. But you might feel differently, Mabel, and that's your choice. Seth scoffed, in fifty years, this whole marriage malarkey will have gone the way of slavery, you mark my words, a stain on our history. The world is changing. There is no way women of your generation, intelligent, educated women, will continue to agree to the terms and conditions. Am I right, Mabel? So I read that, and I was like, you think? What do we think about that? Well, fifty years have passed and people are still

[6:12]Sally Hepworth: getting married. I think it's interesting and Mabel, of course, did live with Seth, who was her aunt, and Ness, who was her best friend. And one of the things that I really wanted to to delve into in this book is the different kinds of relationships that can be your life partner, you know. And and in this case, there was Mabel and her life partner was her best friend Daphne. In the case of Sess and Ness, they were each other's life partners. There are people who have their life partner is their dog or their life partner is their friends from childhood, maybe it's a parent. And I really also wanted to explore what happens if you don't have that. Marriage, of course, historically has been the life partner and it's been the one that we've always put as the number one. And if you lose your partner, then it's the spouse that's the chief mourner, you know, rather than the best friend or or someone else in their life, the brother, the sister. But I just wanted to, I guess, put it out there as another opinion that it isn't always. And what is the relationship? It is about just having one relationship. And so is marriage gonna go, you know, by the wayside? I I don't I don't know. I think there is something that people will always continue wanting to do it, but maybe it will change. Maybe it will not always be the thing that it is today.

[7:44]Zibby Owens: I don't know. I took a a class in college about the institution of marriage and the predictions well, this was even before I mean, not to make myself sound ancient, but before same sex marriage was allowed, and the prediction was, oh, that'll be allowed soon, but what of this entire institution? So in the back of my head, it's like life is gone. I'm like, I wonder what's gonna happen with this institution of marriage, and then you have it in your book. So, anyway, it's it's it's curious to think about things that we take for granted and how

[8:13]Sally Hepworth: maybe the structure of society will look entirely different in in a little bit. But, anyway, that's just a small thing of the book. I just you know, not not a major theme or anything. No. It's a good question. It is but it does speak to the fact that as we as humans, we we have this inclination to pair up still, you know, even when it perhaps doesn't have the the same benefits as, you know, as it once did or the same kind of relevance, we do have a desire to do it, and that is at the heart of the book as well.

[8:39]Zibby Owens: In fact, that led to the unique relationship with Daphne and Mabel. Exactly. So when Mabel was young, she had and I don't wanna give these away if they're major plot points later, but she she goes through a lot of loss and a lot of change and not abandonment, but definitely feelings of of, you know, not not good feelings from people who she loves, And she has to make sense of that, some in really traumatic ways, some right in front of her eyes. And it speaks to how do we get over things like this that happen to us and maybe even mischaracterization of some things. But how do we get past the events of our family and the events of our past and make our own lives? And, like, what do you think about that? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one of the really,

[9:29]Sally Hepworth: really interesting things that I found when researching this book was the the absolute correlation of people who and we know, of course, that that Mabel was the youngest person to be convicted of murder. That says it on the back of the blurb. That there's just this real link between trauma in childhood and, of course, children who commit serious crimes. It doesn't happen a lot. It's very rare for it to be a child. It's even rarer for it to be a little girl. And in the few cases that I did read about, one was a woman a little girl called Mary Bell in The UK. And there was also two little girls in New Zealand in the nineteen fifties who committed murder of one of their mothers. It is always at the there's always been a lot of trauma in that child's life. How do they get over it? Sometimes they don't. But one thing that we do see is that sometimes one person, sometimes if it's not a parent, there's not a parent available, sometimes it is an aunt, it's a teacher, it's someone taking an interest in that child is enough to save them. You see that with foster care. The children and even families that the children have all been through the same thing, but one of them makes it and it's because someone has had a special interest. But if there's no one else available, what happens? And that's really where I started with this book and its exploration because, you know, reading this book, and this ties back to to marriage, I'd just been through a divorce at the time that I started writing this book and so I really felt like that that part of I had a lot of support. I had family and I had my girlfriends who I've come to think of as my life partners. But I started to think what if I didn't have them? You know, where would I be without these people? And, you know, this was really an exploration of where what you would do, where you would be. Would it end up in tragedy? Would someone come there for you? And so the book has got, in both the the modern day story and also the past story, a real theme of community and what happens,

[11:53]Zibby Owens: you know, if it's not there for you, and also how do we create it. I've also been divorced, and I've been remarried now for a number of years. How what has how has that affected your life? For for me, it was everything was in disrepair and get everything gets resorted as if, like, you know, the things like, it's like a a basket of something, and then it goes flying in the air, and then it resettles and lands in different places. All over the floor. Yeah. All over the floor.

[12:20]Sally Hepworth: Yeah. It's a complete reset. It it has and it still is resetting. Know, it's been a couple of years, but I have definitely looked at my life differently and my obviously, that the husband isn't the life partner, but I kind of realized that the people that stepped up for me, my girlfriends, who I've been friends with my entire life, they've always been the life partner. Whether or not people's marriages survive, it's not about maybe marriage being irrelevant, but it made me realize ise that they were always the ones that had been there for me before I got married, thereafter I got divorced, but even I'll be there for them after marriages end through death or whatnot. We've always been each other's supporters. And so that is something that I will always fight for that that the importance of friendship, female friendship. And and this book, it actually says quite early on, this is a love story. Mhmm. And and there's no purer form of love than than platonic female friendship. And so, yeah, we explore that obviously through through Mabel and Daphne. And and it's, you know, it is dedicated to my best friend, this book, and it's for for female friendship everywhere because I think that is what saves us in these difficult time. That's what saved me in my divorce. And I feel like most of the women I know when something when the shit hits the fan, they're going to their girlfriends.

[13:52]Zibby Owens: A 100%. I actually just interviewed Jessica George. I don't know if you've read her new book. It's called Love by the Book. It's all about a woman and her three best friends, and it's a love letter to female friendship. I feel like the two of you should do an event together or something. Very different books, but very similar themes in a way. I don't know. Maybe you two would have a nice talk. She's British. Yeah. But anyway Oh, I love that. Another cool thing about this book is making an older woman a hero of sorts. I mean, even if the book had ended after she climbed over the fence in, like, the first scene, like like, that would have done the trick. But there was, of course, so much more. And particularly that she ends up taking the narrative into her own hands, really, and figures out how to, you know, deftly navigate new media and stake a new life, you know, carve out a new kind of life for herself now that she doesn't have to be in hiding anymore. Talk talk about the perspective of an 81 year old and how you got into that frame headspace. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day, Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zippy.

[17:49]Sally Hepworth: Yeah. I'm glad you're into it. I found it a really fun headspace to be in, although, as you say, traumatic at times. I actually I I've always had a great love for elderly women, particularly. I was very close to my great auntie Gwen who passed away a couple of years ago. She was not like Mabel. She was very tiny, whereas Mabel is a six foot tall granny, as she calls herself. And I found that a really interesting thing to deal with too. But I actually came up with the idea for the book when I was at a book event and I was signing books and there was a woman and she was 93 and she waited in the line until right at the end and people kept trying because she was so elderly, people kept trying to kind of let her through and she said, no, no, I'm gonna wait. And she waited until the end and I was just sitting there with the books and she pulled up a chair she sat I thought, woah, what's going to happen? And I had been talking in the event about murder and how my books involve murder and blah blah blah, and she sat down and she said, I'm going to murder my next door neighbour. And I said Oh! How are you going to do it? Because I thought Oh this is fantastic, I could use this in a book. And she said Well I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I know that I'm going to get away with it. And I said how do you know? And she said, because there are two groups of people never suspected of murder, and those are old women and little girls. And that was the first line in the book. And it was just too good a concept. I thought nothing has never been done. We know that we are constantly reusing, reimagining. But I thought I haven't seen that done a lot. And I know that I could really do something interesting with the idea of an old woman. I knew that I was gonna go into her past because it's always about the why for me. Know, maybe she's done these things, but the why is what's interesting, and that's where the kind of meat of the story is. And so I I knew she came to life for me very easily. She wasn't my great auntie Gwen. She wasn't me. Some people say, is this future you? Oh, no. Think I'm a bit sunnier than Mabel and I had quite a nice childhood, but it was one of those glorious kind of experiences that doesn't happen with every book where she was fully formed and I knew who she was and how she would react to things. And that's one of those things when people ask me how about the how of writing. I don't know. I wish I knew because it doesn't happen every time. I wish I could kind of say this is how you do it, but some characters are special to write and she was one of those ones maybe because I was so fresh out of a divorce and and I was raw, maybe because it did take me a little bit longer to write this book than than previous books. But I really felt like I knew her, and I was just kind of unpeeling the layers of of of who she was rather than kind of rather than trying to invent it. And and through the character of Persephone, who we haven't mentioned, who's the little seven year old girl who lives across the road, no coincidence that my daughter Clementine was seven while I was writing this book because it's a little bit of the character. She is also really able to kind of peel those layers off Elsie as she's known, who's the same character as Mabel. And I think that that the other part that I find really special is the way that children and elderly people are able to to connect, and they can kind of children can break down, you know, facades in a way that no one else can. And and in that way, those two characters, and of course, Daphne, they really just sort of they were there telling the story for me, and I just kind of had to get out of the way and write it down. That's what it felt like. And it was it Persephone or Mabel at the end who said something really beautiful about friendship, it has nothing to do with age.

[22:06]Zibby Owens: And when you have a friend and, you know, the threat of even having that taken away can just feel like the end of the world.

[22:14]Sally Hepworth: Yes. Yeah. And and and children in the same way because you when you're a child and when you're an elderly person, your lives are smaller and they're more reliant on the the goodness of the people around you. And as hard as it is to be in those middle years, and like you, we're in those sandwich years with children and aging parents and it feels like you know, and single parenting and you feel like your world is gonna just blow up, there is also some security in the people that we have around us and some community in it. But when you're a child and you're an elderly person, you really are at the mercy of the people who show up for you. And so when you put them together, and there is I'm not sure if this exists in The States, but there is this beautiful TV show that's been made out of the exercise of putting nursing homes and daycare together here in Australia. And it's a TV show about the way that these people connect and the community of putting elderly people and children together and the actual links to longevity. You know, people live longer, the children are meeting their milestones earlier. And in this particular time in our lives where we're turning less towards community and more towards a kind of you know, an individualistic society. We've got, you know, we've got screens and technology and things that are getting in the way of that, you know, face to face time. We're really replacing it. There's so many things that are great about the tools that we have and and connection in some ways, but we're just not getting the same returns Mhmm. On this technological society. We need each other. We need face to face. We need skin to skin. We need each other. And I think I think that's what She says on Zoom.

[24:18]Zibby Owens: I know. I think, well, that's why I don't ever wanna say it's not because, you know, it it is marvelous. It's amazing. I know. I completely agree. It I completely agree. It's always so much better. You We can fool ourselves in thinking, oh, it's just as good, but it is not just as good. Some of the stuff happens when you're just in the same room. It's just a different experience. My daughter, by the way, is part of a volunteer program with elderly people and and, you know, middle schoolers. So she just started doing that, but same same concept. So I'll tell her you were shouting it out and all the benefits. Getting Is things out of it too? Is she Well, she just started, but she said the first time was great. So we'll see what happens. And I'm curious. You totally don't have to answer this if you don't want. But when I went through my divorce, like, I wasn't even on social media at that point in my life. I joined afterwards. But you were already a massive best selling author with a very visible platform. Like, how did you cope with that? Like, did you feel

[25:13]Sally Hepworth: do you have to, like, hide that for a while or, like because I I don't know. Like, anyway, how do Look. I'll talk about divorce forever. It's my most I'm so fascinated by it. I'm still searching for the meaning and all of those things. And what surprised me about it is that I was so broken by it. It was not something I wanted. It came a surprise in a lot of ways. Maybe the upside of how difficult I found it is I really didn't care what anyone thought of me. I wasn't worried about people talking behind my back. I wasn't worried about controlling any kind of image socially. The only thing I cared about was that insofar as my children. So so, yes, obviously, there was a period where, you know, I didn't talk about it. And, you know, the good news, if anyone's listening and is going through this, and so many people are, is that you do get to the other side of it. And even if it might be something that you didn't want, you can see why it happened and you can see how you're better off for it. And I have definitely reached that point even if things are still chaotic. But the upside of it is that it allowed people to connect with me without having to go and tell people individually. And and that was a difference that I found from other people, you know, and and even since then, I'll be sitting beside a mum watching netball, you know, our daughters are playing netball, and then she it'll just somehow come up that she's going through a divorce. And I think, you know, you're just going around your life, aren't you, in the middle of this trauma, in this middle of this chaotic, horrible experience doing the grocery shopping, taking your kids to birthday parties, and you're carrying this. And I think that people kinda knew what once I had put it out there, they knew and they were able to connect with me if they wanted to, and it was so many, just an arm on my shoulder saying like you did, I've been through that too. Can I pick up the kids? That part of it was wonderful. And since then, I've kind of been able to go back and go, oh, you know, that was that was wild. I I didn't really wanna go through something like that publicly, but, yeah, in many ways, was a gift. And I think the wisdom of it is that no one's really talking about your they're only talking because they care and because they love you or because they felt some sort of investment. It's not anything I didn't feel the shame, You know? And I know that a lot of women feel shame, but I never felt like I had done something wrong. I just felt very, very sad. It allowed people to support me. That was the the upside of it.

[27:57]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, thank you for sharing, and I'm sorry all of it unfolded the way it did. Although, we got this book out of it, so, you know, there's that. So thanks.

[28:09]Sally Hepworth: I'm in a really I'm in a really good place now. I I I am in a new relationship, and it's funny because people see that as the once you're in another relationship, they'll say, Oh, good. And they kind of think, Well, that's over now. Away you go. But I had healed myself and repaired that before I got into a relationship. And I was happy as myself with my girlfriends, with my career, with my children. Life was was good. And it has forever reshaped how I look at a romantic relationship as a piece of the story, but not the whole story, and I I wouldn't do that again. Wow.

[28:50]Zibby Owens: Well, Sally, thank you so much. Thank you for this fabulous, immersive read with lots of twists and all that. So thank you for that. Thank you. For the for the chat. So thank you.

[29:03]Sally Hepworth: It's my pleasure, and I look forward to chatting again. Yes.

[29:08]Zibby Owens: You just keep writing, and we can keep talking.

[29:11]Sally Hepworth: Okay. Bye bye. Bye.

[29:13]Zibby Owens: Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.