Pam Sherman plays herself and so can you

[1:35]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming up and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens. Pam Sherman is an actor, writer, leadership consultant, and recovering lawyer profiled in People Magazine about her transition from lawyer to actor. Today, she speaks, facilitates, and coaches leaders globally about finding their edge, explore, dream, grow, and excite. Her book is called Play You, The Role of a Lifetime. Bridge the believability gap to boost your confidence, connection, and impact. Welcome, Pam. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Play You, The Role of a Lifetime. Bridge the believability gap to boost your confidence, connection, and impact. Congrats. Thank you. Can I just say I love that cover? It's a great cover. It really is. It's so powerful and inspirational and shines a spotlight, which is what you do and what you are used to being in. So that's great.

[3:06]Pam Sherman: But that's the whole point is to shine on others. Right? Like, that was, the feeling I wanted people to get so that this would draw them in and realize that it's not about you at all. It's about everybody that you wish to impact, lead, serve. And so the cover is really special to me. It needed to pop.

[3:26]Zibby Owens: Well, there you go. Pam, tell everybody first a little bit more about you. I've already read your bio and all of that, but just take us through how you got to the point where you were writing this book.

[3:37]Pam Sherman: Well, it actually goes back to when I was in the second grade. Great. Let's go there. I used to dream of being an actor and I lived on Staten Island and I used to play the piano with the door wide open, singing at the top of my lungs, hoping that a Broadway producer would, hear me sing and cast me on Broadway. That's but they don't wander the streets of Staten Island. And I came from should. They should. And I came from a very traditional family. My I always say my dad was an OBGYN, and my mom was a Freudian psychoanalyst, which was super confusing, but that's for another show. And so I took a traditional route, and I went to law school because I thought, well, it would be like being a lawyer on television, but it wasn't at all. And instead of, like, running up the courtroom steps and doing all these great arguments that would solve the case and it'd be done in an hour, it was endless nights of sitting on a library floor with books all around me and, crying at the ceiling. Literally, I would shut the door of my office, and I I was wearing what I thought was a nice suit, but it was ill fitting, I used to say both metaphorically and actually lots of shoulder pads. And I realized that I was not being myself, that I had suppressed this dream, but with it, I had suppressed myself. And I was diminishing who I was. And so I decided to sneak off and take an acting class, which is kinda crazy if you think about it as a full time lawyer. And I I got so inspired in a rehearsal room at the Shakespeare Theater in Washington DC with Ed Gero. And I realized that I wasn't the world of pretend. It was a world where I had to build a believable character who's believable to my other actors and then also be believable to the audience. And in going back in that journey, I started to develop more confidence. I'd go back to work and I was more creative. I think I dressed better because I started being more like myself. And I, I realized that something was happening to me that wasn't about pretend, but was about being believable to myself and to others. And a funny thing happened on the way to my secure profession. My law firm went out of business, which happens. And, you know, we're living in times of upheaval where people think the path is one way. And I decided to take the leap and become a full time working actor in Washington DC. You're cue after. And and I was profiled in People Magazine, which Zibby, other than doing this podcast, was actually one of my dreams, right, being in People Magazine. And I got a call, and it was from the head of training at the Department of Justice, and it was the, antitrust division. And this is how I remember it. She's like, do you think you could come in and make my lawyers more interesting? And I'm like, no. I cannot. They're not that interesting. But I started thinking about it, and I thought, well, why can't I take what I learned in that rehearsal room and bring it to how you show up and and make them realize that the messenger matters, that, obviously they have the facts and the law, but what they really are great storytellers that influence people. So it's not about presentation skills that never interested me. There are great people who do that. And that actually set me off on a journey working for the last, well, you know, twenty years all over the world with people from, I like to say from Saudi Arabia to Cincinnati and from Milwaukee to Morocco, and having them realize that what they need to do is bridge a believability gap internally and externally so they could reach their audiences. And it's been so satisfying and that's why it's taken so long to write the book because I'm busy doing the actual work.

[7:29]Zibby Owens: So I know you outlined so much of this in the book, but what does that mean? How can people bridge a believability gap and how can people like lawyers who don't, who might not be, not to you know, categorize lawyers unfairly, but let's just say a particular Joe Schmo lawyer who is not, who doesn't pin themselves as anyone who's creative at all or doesn't want to think about these types of things, like how can you translate all the things you teach into some clear points, which obviously you do here. But to Fill in the blank. Lawyer, accountant, engineer,

[8:01]Pam Sherman: mom, trying to convince, you know, a four year old to tie their shoes, you know, community leaders, entrepreneurs trying to build their business. Yep. The believability gap so to be clear, this is not about authenticity. Right? I you know, authenticity is about I'm gonna be me, and I know who I am. Believability is I am me for others, And there's a generosity to that. And, you know, lawyer, accountant, community organizer, we all have to realize that we wanna make an impact on others. Mhmm. So the believability gap itself is defined as who we we who we fundamentally are and who we think we're supposed to show up as Mhmm. Which creates an internal believability gap for ourselves and who we fundamentally are and how we show up for others, which makes us less believable to them. So the tools that I use are actually under a model that I developed because I'm a lawyer. I trademarked it called the EDGE. And the book is actually laid out using the EDGE model. My kids will tell me that I I everything I do, I do with an edge, and I'm very edgy. Maybe it's the Staten Island thing. I don't know. But to me, it means to explore connections. How do I connect to myself and my audience? The d is for dream. It's understanding that vision is a requirement because vision for yourself, for your organization, for your team, for your family, for your community. I always, there's a great quote in the book that I love. It's not what vision is. It's what vision does. So having a vision and speaking in visionary language actually makes you more believable to yourself, and there's all sorts of research about that. And then the grow part is, okay, you've done all the work on yourself, but then you've got this inner narrative. I call them your archetypes that come in and block you. So you have to know how to move those obstacles, those internal obstacles. And then you also have to learn how to work better with others, play in the sandbox. So we realized that we were missing a a chapter in the book around how to be believable with your team. It's critical. It's not about just knowing yourself. It's about, you know, how are we all going to collaborate together. So even that lawyer who we stereotype as uncreative has to often work with a big team of people to make a difference for their client. So they have to be able to traverse internal conflict, not just the conflict that they're trying to solve, problem solving. And so there's tools and techniques. I love the my favorite chapter title is called rehearse you. Like, how do you rehearse yourself? And then the excite part is then how do you ignite your audience? How do you pay attention to what's re what's really important to them? And then what's the message and the content that you can write or speak or, or or just live so that it it makes a difference? I you know, frankly, you are the model for this. I I will never forget, you know, watching you on Instagram and following you. And I think it was two years ago, I was driving on Montana Avenue, and, I passed in Santa Monica. And I told my husband, stop the car. It was like, you know, it was like Miracle on 34th Street, and I had to go run. I was like, that's Sibby Owens bookstore. And I think you were interviewing Jackie Collins, and and I walked in, and you were so welcoming. You know, there was a crowd of people, but you stopped. You looked me in the eye. You said hello. And my whole theory is that you wanna be who you are wherever you are in order to ignite your audience. And it meant so much to me that you were exactly the same both on your in your virtual world, in your actual world. And, boy, you were incredible with Joe Joe Collins, but you made me feel like I belonged in that room. Aw. That's what I hope for others, is to give them a template for how to know, for some, it's innate. And for some who think it's innate, they're not doing it so well. So, you know, so I do think it's important that we have self awareness and most important that we have relational awareness around who we are for others, because I ultimately believe that's that's why I wrote this book. So those who I don't get to work with or I don't get to meet could pick up the book and have a template and some exercises. And it's very it was really important to me that it be that it'd still be funny because that's a core value of mine, that it have great stories and that there was a how to component to this, which, you know, I admire so many of the authors that you have on the podcast who can write fiction. I I I live for fiction, you know, in in my life, but I really wanted to write something that was real and actionable and people could make a it could make a difference for them. You ever worry that when you put all your tips and tricks in a book that you won't get clients anymore?

[12:52]Zibby Owens: Is that a silly thing?

[12:54]Pam Sherman: No. It's so funny because I I was really lucky to work with a great collaborator, Larry Bishop, who's written some incredible bestselling books with people like me who are consultants, coaches, whatever. You know? And I honestly, I I I don't know what to call myself because it it's a little bit different, for every client that I work with. I think the answer is no. I I don't I was more worried. How do we capture the feeling of working with me on a page? That was so difficult. Right? So that it became about the stories. And there were some dark, you know, night of the soul moments as a writer where I was like, does this could somebody feel what it was like to be in a room with me coaching them? I I think it might inspire obviously, I wanna inspire groups and teams and organizations to buy the book and, to read it. There I always say that there's nothing like having and you know this. There's nothing like having the person who lived it and who you know, for whom the stories are real share those stories and work either one on one or with large groups, that inspires me. But you you know what it is? It's like my mother always told me it's just as hard or easy to cook for a 100 people as it is to cook for one. So you might as well cook for a 100. That's what the book is all I've

[14:19]Zibby Owens: for one. I've never cooked for a 100. So I'm going to, I'm going to push back on that a little bit.

[14:26]Pam Sherman: Well, because you're, you know, you still have put all the ingredients in the pot. I I know. Yeah. You know? So so one person will benefit. I think I I actually no. I don't worry. I was actually more worried about making it feel like you were going on a journey as if it was your own coaching opportunity.

[14:43]Zibby Owens: Well, I feel like voice is so important to you in the book, in what you do. You captured Irma Bombak's voice in your one woman show, so brilliantly. Talk a little bit about the role of humor, the role of voice, and how to I know you're worried you weren't capturing 100% you, but just what is it about our voices that make such a difference? And how do you make sure you bring your voice to everything you do? Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quinn says beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[17:56]Pam Sherman: Oh, that is such a great question because, there's a whole chapter on voice and body language and the impact of that. Yep. You know, when somebody says, I'm I'm so happy to be here. It's like, I'm so happy to be here. Like, why you don't sound happy to me. I also there's a second thing I think of when I think of voice. It's I'm constantly being I'll never forget, you know, her voice. Can you work on her voice? She just doesn't sound like a leader. And I remember calling a client and she called me with a, oh my gosh, the thick thickest New York accent. I said, oh my gosh. You sound like home. Thank you so much. Like, I don't want people to, quash their voices. It was really important to me on the book. I I remember I kept getting notes from my agent and and my editor. Where's Pam's voice? Where's Pam's voice? And I'm well, Pam has many voices. She's got this, you know, intellectual lawyer voice. She's got you know, we have a lot a range of voices, and it depends on your audiences. And that's why it's so important, I think, to figure out what are your core character beliefs because that's gonna guide your voice. Mhmm. There's a whole chapter on your power words. So my power words at the core, one is energy. Mhmm. And that's really important to me. And then humor, connectedness, and excellence. Those are my my core character beliefs. So that's what forms my voice. And if I'm not showing up with humor, lightness, something that's gonna invite somebody in, then I'm not being playing myself, and I can't make a difference for my audiences. So I think on the page, I think it's harder on the page. Maybe I'm wrong. You know? I that's why fiction writers, I think it's so fascinating because they have to actually write these voices that aren't them, but you gotta sort of channel them. And it's the same thing as an actor. So you mentioned Irma Bombach. She was an inspiration. For fifteen years, I wrote a column on the USA Today Network called The Suburban Outlaw. And, basically, I got to make fun of my husband in print. It was super fun. And inspired by this legendary writer who some people in the audience might not know who she is, but she was the first woman columnist to write about what it was like to be a mother with truth. And she did it from an ironing board in her home in Dayton, Ohio. I think next week, 600 aspiring writers are descending upon University of Dayton for the Irma Baumbeck Writers Workshop where I, actually first, second time I met you. And she really was an inspiration to so many. She was in over 900 newspapers. She was on Good Morning America. And I look nothing like her, and I sound nothing like her. I mean, I had to even learn how to pronounce things as an Ohian.

[20:39]Zibby Owens: Like, cottage I I say cottage cheese. She says cottage cheese. At least that's what my director kept telling me. My mom is my mom is from Dayton, Ohio, and that's where my family's so I you know, you could have come to me because I think I might speak that way as well. Exactly.

[20:53]Pam Sherman: I so for me, it was really important not to imitate her, but to find the essence of her. Mhmm. And so I would work on the character beliefs of Irma, which was about warmth, generosity, spirituality, and suddenly my voice would become it's my voice, but it would be softer, sort of show up in a smile. And I found it in in that way, suddenly I could embody Irma. And that's what a great actor does where people would then believe me. Because if you looked at a picture of Irma and you looked at a picture of me, think the greatest compliment was meeting her daughter, Betsy, who then came to the show when I did it in Des Moines, Iowa. And as I said goodbye, she said goodbye, mom. I'm like, oh my gosh. Oh. That was so meaningful to me. So so being on the road doing Irma over the last seven years while running my business coaching clients who are in corporate leadership roles, you know, community organizers, people in all industries that you can think of, That's what really inspired me. And, actually, I would write the book during the day, and then I would go to do the show at night. And so the stories of even living on that stage and bringing that character to life really started to form in the book, And I started bring you know, I think sometimes I'm gonna be honest. I'm so identified with my audiences. I I used to say sometimes I identify with my corporate captors too much. Like, I have to remind myself that when I walk into a group of finance executives, they're more afraid of me than I am of them. So going back on stage brought me back to why I do this work and why it's so important to me. Amazing.

[22:37]Zibby Owens: We also reconnected through JWI, Jewish Women International, which you have You roped me just keep, you know, bringing me into your orbit in different ways, which is great. Talk a little bit about that and how you became so involved there. I am I'm so proud

[22:53]Pam Sherman: actually of your involvement, but of JWI, Jewish Women International. I am the incoming chair of the board, which is that's probably the scariest role I've ever played to, to be a leader of a nonprofit organization that has such great meaning. I got involved with JWI. I live in Rochester, New York, very far away, you know, from, I'm closer to Canada than I am to New York City. But I heard an incredible speaker, rabbi Sherry Hirsch, in Rochester, and we became really great friends through long phone calls. We started talking on the phone, and I was driving back and forth to Buffalo because I had clients. And she's like, oh, I'm free. Give me a call. Three hour time difference. And she invites me to this event in Washington DC where I had lived for seventeen years for an organization I'd never heard of. And JWI's mission is to end gender violence, grow financial literacy, and, empower women and girls to lead. Like, I'm like, I'm in. So I I left the house at 04:00 in the morning because that's what time you have to leave when you live in Rochester. And I flew to Washington, and I saw my friend, Sherry Hirsch, be honored as a woman to watch. We honor 10 women to watch. You were one this last year of Jewish women who are making an impact on the world. And it was actually at that luncheon that I met my agent, and he said, you have a book in you. And I was said, I said, well, I've already written a best selling book, a compilation of columns. And he's like, no. I think you have another one in you. Like, okay. Get it out of me. I listened to Sherry Hirsch, and then I listened to the mission of the organization. And I said, I want in. This is this is an organization. We have young women's impact networks around the country. We're helping them grow their leadership as well as emerge into their careers. We help nonprofit leaders in the Jewish world grow their leadership. And then our programming actually makes a difference helping Jewish communities identify and help survivors in their communities. And then we help survivors through career training and programming. And the fact that we do this, and we also, frankly, post October 7, are helping young women deal with antisemitism in their world by having them gather together. I know how powerful it was this year when you were honored as a woman to watch to see 300 young women light the first Hanukkah candle on the day after the shooting at Brown and and other events around the world. And then we also make a difference for Israeli women leading the charge on, I believe, Israeli women around sexual violence that occurred on October 7. I could not be more proud of Meredith Jacobs, our CEO. The entire board, my current board chair, Michelle Carlson, who somehow tapped me into this, and all the leaders on the board. But most important, I want people to know that, you know, there are there are lots of organizations who have the same mission in terms of antisemitism, but I I don't think there's a lot of Jewish women's organizations that stop to think about developing women's leadership through gathering, through getting to meet people like you, through mentorship, and and most important, through community. So I'm really excited because the day before I launch the book, I'm going to do a virtual event for all of our young women leaders around the country. And the we've also partnered with artists against antisemitism, which I know you're a founder of, and Gilly Gilly Siegel, is also a woman to watch, for a book club. So, and that we're trying to build more connection to, more mature women, women like me. So, you know, for me at this stage of my life, you know, I've always been a volunteer. I here in Rochester, I never joined a board because I was, you know, busy with my kids, but I was an auctioneer for fun, Zippy. I was I'm not surprised. I cannot say I'm surprised. It's, you know, it's sort of like I always say my Sasha Fierce persona takes over on stage, and I remind everybody why they're there. So taking my voice and, bringing my platform to grow Jewish women's leadership is something I'm incredibly proud of. So, I was very honored when you said yes, and you came, and I and our women's conference happens every year in December, always, you know, right around Hanukkah. So, and people come from all over the country, and our, our women to watch are so diverse from the founder of the First Women's Bank to you to the, you know, the leader of, first class vending, a woman owned business in Las Vegas. Like, we just, you know, people out there doing the thing, employing people, rolling up their sleeves, and doing it as a Jewish woman in their power. And that that's, to me, it actually fits to play you and the edge for me to take on this, role at JWI.

[28:01]Zibby Owens: Thank you for asking about that. Sure. No. I was gonna say you embody all of those things, and this book is just case in point. Pam, you are such a warrior. Thank you. All the things you do to help other people make people's lives better, imbue their work with meaning and warmth. I mean, that's so important too, like being able to connect to people in a time where there is so much divisiveness. I mean, these are the things that we all need to hold on to, especially as things ramp up and people might not share all the same opinions. The way to connect with others is being shared. Absolutely.

[28:35]Pam Sherman: You know, for me, this is about being human. Yes. And humanity is really wonderful. I think in this world of AI and the incredible conflicts that we're seeing around the world and on technology, having people believe in themselves, believability is what we need more of. So I can't thank you enough for giving me this chance to talk to you about it. Well, so glad you stopped the car that day because our relationship is really meaningful and

[29:03]Zibby Owens: just love all of the ways that our paths gonna continue to cross. So congratulations on Play You, and I'm very excited to help you usher it into the world. Congrats. Thank you so much. Take care. You're welcome. Okay. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.