Caitlin Shetterly, The Gulf of Lions, and Lauren Schott, Very Slowly All at Once
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to the Zibi.
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[0:44]Today we have a double episode, another two amazing, escapist novels that will help
[0:50]you dream, escape, indulge, and learn, and feel, and all the good things this summer.
[0:58]Caitlin Shetterly is the author of Pete and Alice in Maine, and now The Golf of Lions,
[1:04]which is a standalone sequel to the first book.
[1:06]Caitlin is also the author of three previous books, including modified, made for you and
[1:11]me, and the best-selling fault lines, Stories of Divorce.
[1:14]Caitlin's work has been featured in The New York Times, The New York Times Magazine,
[1:17]O'Brien, Elle Self, The Boston Globe, and on Oprah.com.
[1:21]She is an editor at large for French, a French arts and culture online news magazine for
[1:26]which she created the popular Louis-end newsletter, a main native she graduated with honors
[1:31]from Brown, and lives with her two sons and husband in her home state.
[1:34]They travel to France regularly.
[1:36]Welcome, Caitlin.
[1:37]Thanks so much for coming on Totally Book, again, to talk about The Golf of Lions.
[1:42]Congratulations.
[1:43]Thank you so much.
[1:44]I'm so glad to be here, and you are the very first person I told about that book.
[1:49]Really?
[1:50]Oh my gosh.
[1:51]Yes, you're the very first person.
[1:53]I told you about it after we did our interview about Pete and Alice, and I think I wrote
[1:58]you an e-mail, and I was like, you're the first person I'm actually telling, but I'm
[2:03]thinking about doing a second part, because there was something in the conversation that
[2:06]lingered with me.
[2:07]Oh my gosh.
[2:08]Well, I'm so glad you did.
[2:09]I was actually wondering, so for anyone who has read Pete and Alice in Maine, this is a continuation
[2:16]of their story in a way, but you don't have to have read the first one at all to pick
[2:19]up on this one.
[2:21]Did you think about calling it, like Alice in France or anything?
[2:25]Yes.
[2:26]In fact, the title on it in the beginning, I had a whole list of titles.
[2:30]The very first title, and the one that I really loved how it looked, was Alice, and then
[2:35]the word up, right?
[2:37]Alice after?
[2:38]Yes.
[2:39]I loved how that looked, I loved how it sounded, but there was sort of like a lukewarm feeling
[2:46]about it from my editor, and my agent was like, just worried that I'm not sure I worried
[2:54]about this, but she was like, I worry somebody's gonna see that word and be like, be go
[2:59]to order it at Barnes and Noble and be like, I don't even know how to say it, I'll
[3:03]play.
[3:04]Yeah.
[3:05]How do I say it?
[3:06]Or what is that word even me in there?
[3:07]What does it mean?
[3:08]Yeah.
[3:09]Am I insecure saying it?
[3:11]Yeah.
[3:12]I was like, next, and then I called it the Linden tree, because there's the character
[3:17]of the Linden tree.
[3:18]There's a tree in there, a real, that's actually a real tree.
[3:21]Yeah, I got that vibe that she founded out later, that she found out later, that there
[3:25]was a whole history of it from, well, I found out later, there was a whole history of
[3:29]this tree, but I, yes, but it's a tree that's outside of Leo, it's not in that same spot,
[3:35]but I put it in that imaginary, in that town there, but yeah, there is a tree, it was
[3:40]planted in 1438, so this is like before Joan of Arc was burned, before Shakespeare.
[3:47]This tree has been sanding that long.
[3:50]How do we know that?
[3:51]Well, I guess they take the samples of it or whatever, but I'm actually going to write
[3:56]an essay for Orion magazine about Linden trees as a spinoff of this, because I did all
[4:01]this research on Linden trees and found that they're like the answer to our climate
[4:06]change problems.
[4:08]They can tolerate vast fluctuations in heat, dryness, cold.
[4:15]They survive for a long time, they capture more carbon than any other tree.
[4:21]And so a lot of city planners, especially in more organized countries than ours, are planting
[4:28]Linden's in cities in particular.
[4:30]Wow, we could use the food in New York, maybe we could get on that campaign together.
[4:34]Exactly, yeah.
[4:35]So I mean, actually Chicago is a city that's been planting a lot of them.
[4:39]Okay.
[4:40]Well, wait, let's back up.
[4:41]So the Gulf of Lions, can you explain the book to listeners and how you decided on doing
[4:48]this second part, if you will, to your entire book?
[4:52]The answer is sort of complicated.
[4:54]It's not exactly a straight line as writing never is as you know better than most.
[4:59]Just so I finished Pete and Alice, so I finished that book.
[5:03]I wrote it from 2020 to 2021 and that I had some rewrites, but it was like really done
[5:08]by 2022.
[5:10]And then I was in France with my husband and my sons and Pete and Alice had ended on kind
[5:17]of a cliffhanger, even for me, not just my readers, you know, even for me.
[5:21]I wasn't really sure I was totally done.
[5:23]And who I wasn't so done with was the girls, the two daughters, you know, I have
[5:29]always, in the end, I actually don't think, I think kids are kids and these sort of
[5:34]hard lines between genders don't really make much sense to hang our hat on.
[5:40]But I really did love remembering myself as a little girl, remembering myself as a teenager
[5:47]or a tween.
[5:49]And I was playing with all that in my mind and I loved writing these girls and I wasn't
[5:53]totally done with them.
[5:55]And so I just kind of wanted Alice to go to France.
[6:01]And there was another sort of level that was happening in there, which was that I had
[6:05]spent so many years as a mom.
[6:09]And I think I read these books as a young person too, but I had spent so many years as
[6:12]a mom reading these books to my kids where the mother is dead or dying, right?
[6:20]And I wanted to write a survivor's story so badly where the mother doesn't die.
[6:25]I mean, you know, just some quick stats are like there's, you know, like 4 million women
[6:31]with breast cancer in America right now and a much smaller percentage of those women will
[6:37]die actually.
[6:38]So there's so many that live.
[6:41]And so I was really interested at that time about like the things that happen in a life
[6:48]that can make a marriage and a family come back together or can be ruptures and can
[6:55]clarify or create chaos and then clarify.
[6:58]I was really interested in these various things that happen.
[7:02]And so I just wanted to play around with that.
[7:05]And so it's no surprise that in the beginning of the book, this is doesn't ruin anything.
[7:09]On the first page, you learn this, Alice has had breast cancer and she's taken her two
[7:14]daughters to France because she's been assigned an article by something that's kind of
[7:19]like outside magazine and they have this whole initiative for girls and women and they're
[7:25]going to drive around France and camp, specifically using this thing called hip camp, which
[7:33]actually does exist, it's like Airbnb but like people's fields and yards and woods.
[7:40]And so I will not be going on one of those trips, but thank you.
[7:44]I totally want to actually you go and you can write more about it, but she, but you know,
[7:50]but I actually went through it and tried to find the course and find the different spots
[7:55]and check them out and see if they would be something she'd want to do.
[7:58]And so that was also really fun.
[8:00]I did it on the computer, but so Caitlin, the crazy part of this whole story, which
[8:06]is emotional and raw and beautiful and so real is that I finished reading the book and
[8:12]then I was like, I wonder when Caitlin got her own breast cancer diagnosis and how did
[8:18]she even have time to have breast cancer, get better and write about it all since I interviewed
[8:24]her last time and have this new book come out.
[8:27]And then I realized that you didn't have breast cancer when you wrote this book and that
[8:31]you got it after you wrote it, which blows my mind first of all, I'm sorry that I haven't
[8:36]to you, but how crazy is that?
[8:39]It was just, I'm still trying to really make sense of it, Zibi.
[8:43]It's I mean, now I'm a lot better, but to say that I lost hope for a bit there until
[8:52]and I lost, you know, it's been pretty dark time in the world anyway.
[8:58]Then to kind of lose hope and faith, actually, and those two things are actually entwined
[9:04]in each other, I'm finding that one of them gives way to the other.
[9:09]I think when you lose hope, it's hard to hold on to faith, you almost need them both in
[9:15]order to, and so in order to sort of keep yourself buoyant, I'm not sure faith exists that
[9:22]well without hope, frankly.
[9:24]But anyway, that's an intellectual exercise that we could ponder for hours, but it was a
[9:30]very crazy time.
[9:31]I handed the book in October of 2024, and then in February, like, so that's like October,
[9:37]November, December, January, four or five months later, I had an irregular mammogram and
[9:46]I did not expect that at all.
[9:49]I had actually missed my mammogram in August because I was writing this book, and then
[9:53]I kept putting it off because I felt like I was just too busy and too tired and fall in
[9:59]my family is...
[10:00]really really busy. My kids are both runners and soccer players and it was just
[10:05]bananas and I was trying to hit my deadline and you know I don't know if I
[10:10]should feel guilty that I missed my mammogram or I mean one doctor said to me
[10:15]you may have actually saved yourself because it could have been so small
[10:18]we wouldn't have noticed. So I was I went on a Saturday because there's this
[10:23]whole thing in Maine anyway. They are trying to make it really easy for you to
[10:27]come get your mammogram. So they you can go like almost any day of the week
[10:32]all these different time slots. I went and on Monday it was my kids February
[10:38]break and I was cleaning my office and I got this phone call and I didn't
[10:46]actually believe it at first. I'm sort of like yeah no there's something you've
[10:52]mixed me up with someone else. There was this sort of very funny moment
[10:56]where the woman on the other end of the line was just calling to tell me I
[11:02]needed to come back like stat like today or tomorrow was sort of like I think
[11:08]she kind of was like what am I actually dealing with here because because I had
[11:12]gone through all this with my character my first sort of odd reaction was that
[11:17]the call wasn't for me which doesn't really make any sense but anyway so I
[11:24]I went back and then this whole chaotic thing happened where it went on for
[11:28]11 weeks so they couldn't find it they were like slipping around with the
[11:34]ultrasound being like is it at seven o'clock or five o'clock oh wait a minute we
[11:38]thought it was at two where is this thing wait a minute what what's that oh my
[11:43]God we see something in your right breast now so that I went and had an MRI and
[11:48]then it would and then even my my OBGYN was like look I think we've done all
[11:52]this they're there this is not conclusive you don't need to do anymore but I had
[11:57]this you know there's that that funny line I think it's it Henry the second
[12:03]Henry the six maybe who says well no one rid me of this medicine priest and I
[12:09]the the radiologist kept calling me back and I was like man this woman's got an
[12:14]issue like she's just like this is so obviously I don't have it I've got
[12:20]friends dense breast tissue whatever no one can find this thing and even my
[12:25]OBGYN what she ran was like I think it's done and this woman insisted I go and
[12:31]get a biopsy so I went down to the breast center they let my husband come in
[12:36]the room they've got the long deal they were amazing and the guy who was the
[12:41]the tech in there the guy who does the biopsies the radiologist biopsy guy I
[12:48]knew he said this once what did he say this one's fuzzy as soon as he said
[12:53]something was fuzzy I knew it didn't have clean lines and so then I knew and it
[13:00]was a shocking thing yeah I was really surprised but if you ask my friend
[13:04]Rachel she'll say that she thinks it was actually helpful for me that I went
[13:09]through all this with Alice I don't know if I totally agree but I understand
[13:15]why she says that it was yeah I don't know why she says that but I do I do
[13:21]realize that I processed a lot of it ahead of time what made this totally weird
[13:26]for me is that it felt like my fourth wall I felt like my privacy had been
[13:32]it was like a strange thing I don't really know how explain it but I had made
[13:36]this whole thing up and I cared so deeply that this woman who's a survivor
[13:42]be seen right and then all of a sudden here I am coming in with this cancer
[13:48]myself but I'm sort of almost like stealing her thunder but I also was sort of
[13:52]like God I felt so exposed and so like how no one's ever gonna believe me that I
[13:59]made this up and I'm sort of writing a memoir which I wasn't and so I was that
[14:05]was like hard as an artist for me I don't know there were a lot of levels to it
[14:09]but you know in the end I heard this amazing thing I was listening to
[14:15]fresh air you know Tanya Mosley who does the interviews on fresh air she's
[14:19]so good and I love her interviews and she was interviewing Arsenio Hall and
[14:25]they played a clip of Magic Johnson and it was like when he was asked on that
[14:32]show about getting HIV and he was like you know I think God put me on this
[14:39]planet to help educate people about this so God has given me this now so
[14:45]that I can explain to people because I think it was about the moment when
[14:48]Arsenio hugged him and at that time like people were refusing to play
[14:53]basketball with him and they were refusing to touch him and there was all this
[14:57]stigma and that really I mean I gasped but I heard that because suddenly I
[15:03]thought okay so maybe this is why right like maybe the point is that this is my
[15:09]chance to talk about all the women who survived this and many things we serve
[15:14]so many things women are such survivors and we keep going and yet we have to
[15:22]straddle kind of like this orpheus situation when we're always looking over
[15:26]our shoulders and maybe this is my moment to celebrate those women because I set
[15:31]out in the beginning to do that that's exactly what I wanted to do I wanted to
[15:35]talk about a mother who is you know I was tired of all these dead moms and
[15:39]books and then the minute someone got cancer they were killed off this is
[15:43]before I even had it I was already used to be kind of a joke my kids would joke
[15:47]about it like another dead mom so maybe that's why I'm here maybe that's why
[15:51]this happened and that's I don't know well Caitlin I'm really sorry that you
[15:59]went through all this I'm sorry I know there's where did you write about this
[16:03]maybe on social I'm like was it you or the character it was like when you said
[16:07]like why is this happening to me and the the nurse said we operate on women
[16:13]with breast cancer all day every day and it's an epidemic yes so the
[16:18]radiation oncologist I asked him I just put this in an essay I haven't
[16:24]placed the essay yet but I asked him I asked him I said okay so when I after I
[16:28]came out of surgery she was wheeling me out on the in the to my husband had
[16:33]pulled the car around and I you know I kept asking everybody this why did
[16:37]this happen how did this happen why did this happen and she said just what you
[16:42]said it's an epidemic we are operating our surgeons are operating all day
[16:46]every day we cannot stop on young women with cancer and she said that that one
[16:51]innate thing that's like from the 90s or the 80s she said it's way way more
[16:56]prevalent than that the numbers have not caught up and I asked the radiation
[17:01]oncologist he was like oh yeah it's a he said breast cancers in epidemic right
[17:06]now and what's crazy is that it just sits this like people are popping up all
[17:12]over the place right with it and it's just the last year they're all saying
[17:16]they got it this last year but last two years what I mean that's really weird
[17:21]I mean I think also you're more aware of the people are they're probably
[17:25]telling you more about it what well I mean I'm in the Pete I don't know
[17:30]her yeah but she just wrote about it oh that essay was so beautiful do you read
[17:34]that in the New York did I read it I saw it on your page for I read it yeah I saw
[17:39]you had it yeah and but I feel like I don't know I don't know that I'm more aware
[17:44]of it I think it's just no it's obviously so prevalent I mean yeah yeah
[17:49]everywhere no I mean I don't think I know a single woman who doesn't have a
[17:53]friend who had it right yeah I mean everybody but anyway okay well and there's
[17:58]so many of us the really important thing to keep recognizing though is that
[18:02]there's really good medicine if you do what you're told to do yet you know you
[18:06]can do what you're told to do and also it can be a very hard and long battle
[18:10]that's true also there's really good medicine and there's so many of us who
[18:17]survive longer much longer as long as you only had it this only happened to
[18:24]a year ago right it just happened I mean it's so recent it's so
[18:28]recent I'm still so rocked of course you are of course you are it's so I
[18:36]mean I don't know I feel like I'm still like unpacking purses I use a year
[18:41]ago do you know be like you have all these emotions but anyway so yeah
[18:47]it's a lot it's a lot and I'm sorry but that aside that aside you've written
[18:56]a really beautiful escapist emotional intimate story of marriage mothers and
[19:04]daughters travel lust reinvention loyalty I mean all the things and then just
[19:12]when I thought I kind of had a hold on the whole book the last I don't know 50
[19:18]pages or so are all about Sophie and the daughter the team daughter and that
[19:23]could have been its own book and I could not stop flipping the pages like I'm
[19:28]like oh my gosh and it became like this fast-paced you know edge of your seat
[19:33]type of thing that by the end of the book I was just like oh my gosh I've been
[19:39]through it this is amazing and I couldn't stop thinking about the characters so
[19:42]I'm so glad to hear that I love that I love that I mean you know it's funny
[19:48]because I so I was at Trader Joe's the other day and this a bookseller
[19:52]recognized me and she came up she was like Caitlin I'm a bookseller I work at
[19:58]this bookstore Sherman's and
[20:00]She said, I just want to let you know.
[20:01]I just finished her galley and I loved it so much.
[20:05]And she said, you blew me away.
[20:07]And she said at the end, I've gone back and started it
[20:11]at the beginning again, which I know that feeling.
[20:14]I did that with all of Liz Stroud's books.
[20:17]And then she'll be like, how the hell did she do that?
[20:20]And I'd start again.
[20:21]So this was a huge compliment to me,
[20:23]not saying I'm as good as Liz Stroud,
[20:25]but I'm just saying, I was so thrilled
[20:26]that she was saying she had done this.
[20:27]And she said the reason is that she realized
[20:32]if she had been paying better attention,
[20:34]she knew by the end that I was telling her at the beginning
[20:37]what was going to happen at the end.
[20:39]And she started reading a gink.
[20:40]She was like, now I want to know all the moments
[20:43]she was telling me before I knew.
[20:45]So you know what I'm talking about, for instance.
[20:47]We don't want to spoil the end, but yeah, I really,
[20:51]I don't even remember writing that, Sibi.
[20:55]It like took over.
[20:57]It like just, I don't even think I wrote that.
[21:00]I don't take any credit for it.
[21:01]It's some like other person sat in my seat or something
[21:05]or some magician, but they just flowed.
[21:07]And I don't remember making those decisions really.
[21:11]It just sort of happened, you know,
[21:13]and that sort of gray rape and all that stuff.
[21:17]I was not conscious, really.
[21:20]I mean, that sounds so weird and like woo-woo,
[21:23]but it just sort of, I hadn't planned it.
[21:27]Let me put it down.
[21:28]Yep.
[21:29]It wasn't like I had no cards.
[21:31]Well, maybe that's why I just flowed so well.
[21:35]It's like the one, it's like it downloaded from you
[21:38]right into my brain.
[21:39]And I don't know, it's like you, I couldn't wait to see.
[21:43]Yeah.
[21:44]And I felt it, I just felt it all.
[21:46]And I think that's what makes books sit with me
[21:49]the longest when like my emotions get all messed up.
[21:54]So in it, right?
[21:55]Yes.
[21:56]Like reading and being like telling my,
[21:58]I'm like, you can't tell how to read right now.
[22:00]Just hold on.
[22:01]I have to see what happens.
[22:02]Like that is, you know, yes, no, I know that that
[22:05]it aren't my family.
[22:06]It's like a sacrosanct thing.
[22:07]Like they're finishing a book.
[22:09]Yes, not touch the door.
[22:11]You have to not go upstairs to not bang on the stairs.
[22:15]Don't, don't flush the toilet, don't go anywhere
[22:18]where they're finishing a bar.
[22:20]And then just like five pages.
[22:23]I don't have a grasp.
[22:24]Just like, oh my God, don't come in here.
[22:29]I know, I know, it's so, it's so true.
[22:31]But yeah, you know, it's funny.
[22:33]So the story of sort of like hope and faith.
[22:36]You know, you would know a like
[22:37]or a good month's work.
[22:38]I'm sure of course.
[22:39]Yeah.
[22:40]Isola, I read that right in the beginning
[22:44]of my whole Odyssey there where they were like,
[22:47]look, slipping around with the goo
[22:49]and the ultrasound and being like,
[22:51]it's not there.
[22:52]But you know, in that book, Marguerite,
[22:55]speaking of like your own emotions
[22:56]and not knowing where the book happens
[22:59]and you happen and everything,
[23:01]that kind of happened for me with that book.
[23:03]I had a profound like intimate relationship with that book
[23:08]because as you remember,
[23:09]Marguerite is left on that island by herself.
[23:14]And she loses everything she cares about.
[23:16]And it's such an incredible trial.
[23:19]And she loses faith and hope.
[23:22]She loses, she, her faith is so question
[23:25]because she feels she's done everything right.
[23:29]She's tried so hard to be good.
[23:31]And I know that feeling and there's an echo,
[23:34]it was an echo of that and that beautiful essay
[23:36]that Tatiana Schlossenberg wrote.
[23:38]She said, I've tried all my life to be good.
[23:41]And you know, I think Jen X Women in particular,
[23:44]we've tried so hard to like repair all the wrongs
[23:47]of our childhoods and be good and the pressure
[23:51]and to have jobs and to be good moms do all of it.
[23:56]So I was really interested in that whole dynamic too.
[23:58]You know, I was interested in my book.
[24:02]It was in the background.
[24:03]And then when I found out I had cancer
[24:05]and I felt that I was afraid to hope for anything.
[24:09]I can't say I had ever in my life had that feeling before.
[24:13]And I found myself thinking about, you know,
[24:16]somebody who had been detained by I say
[24:20]would you be afraid to hope and like what happens next?
[24:26]No, we cannot be afraid to hope.
[24:28]And without hope, it's hard to do really anything in life.
[24:33]So it was a vacuous feeling for me.
[24:36]Yeah.
[24:37]Anyway, Kaylyn, thank you so much.
[24:40]Thanks for the book.
[24:41]Thank you for sharing on social.
[24:43]Thank you for sharing with me.
[24:45]So glad I'm so thrilled we got to talk.
[24:47]I absolutely love it.
[24:49]I feel like you went to stay in touch.
[24:51]Me too.
[24:52]Each of the last time you were in Maine, but we have to.
[24:54]Yes, well, I'll be back.
[24:57]All right.
[24:58]And also glad we've heard matching pink sweaters.
[25:00]Yes, we look great.
[25:01]All right, thank you for featuring the golfers.
[25:05]Of course, thank you.
[25:06]Bye.
[25:07]Lauren shot was the author of very slowly
[25:10]all at once a novel.
[25:11]Lauren was born in Akron, Ohio,
[25:13]and is a graduate of Duke University.
[25:15]She has spent 25 years working in publishing.
[25:17]Very slowly, all at once is her first novel for adults.
[25:21]Here, how she got into the industry,
[25:23]why our episode was postponed originally,
[25:26]and how she is marketing this very special book.
[25:30]Welcome, Lauren.
[25:31]Thank you so much for coming on to talk about very slowly
[25:35]all at once.
[25:36]Congratulations.
[25:37]Thank you.
[25:38]Thank you so much for having me.
[25:39]It's my pleasure.
[25:40]Tell everybody what your book is about.
[25:43]So my book is the story of Mac and Haley Evans,
[25:46]who are sort of 30 something, almost 40 something,
[25:49]couple who almost have achieved the American dream.
[25:52]They have built a beautiful new house.
[25:54]They both have good jobs, little stressful jobs.
[25:57]And they've moved into a really fancy neighborhood.
[26:00]And they've almost made it.
[26:02]They have two lovely daughters,
[26:03]but they're a little overextended and distracted.
[26:06]So a serious person starts sending them checks
[26:09]in the mail from a company that they've never heard of.
[26:12]And they have ideas as to who might do this.
[26:14]And it's not that much money to them at first.
[26:16]And so they take the checks without thinking about it.
[26:20]And then they find out much too late
[26:21]that that probably wasn't a good idea.
[26:24]Well, both Mac and Haley have really interesting sort
[26:27]of backstories and personal journeys throughout the book.
[26:29]So Mac is a college professor who's
[26:32]been embroiled in a little bit of scandal,
[26:34]but he's really like trying to find his way
[26:37]even aside from that in the sort of like
[26:40]almost midlife melez.
[26:41]And he's grappling with his relationship
[26:44]with his mother who has had neurological issues
[26:47]for many years and is in a home.
[26:49]And he's trying to manage that.
[26:51]He's trying to find out anything with the past with his father
[26:56]who he didn't really know.
[26:57]And he has just a lot on his plate, not to mention his marriage.
[27:01]So when we find Mac, he's like in crisis,
[27:04]which I feel like so many people can relate to.
[27:07]Like what is this everything?
[27:09]Like what now?
[27:10]Tell me a bit about creating Mac as a character.
[27:14]I think he's my favorite character in the novel.
[27:17]I have a real soft spot for him.
[27:18]And all of these characters in the novel are flawed and people.
[27:22]They do awful things, but I'm not.
[27:25]I don't, they're good at heart.
[27:28]And he just really came from that.
[27:30]He wants more, but he doesn't quite know how to get it.
[27:33]He actually isn't into the trappings of the life
[27:36]that they are looking for.
[27:37]He's more in for he wants to be a novelist.
[27:39]He wants to be a good professor.
[27:41]But he's sort of lacks motivation.
[27:43]And I think that's why he's particularly vulnerable
[27:46]to falling into a trap that has been basically
[27:49]been set for him and to these checks.
[27:51]And he kind of wanders into it without thinking about it
[27:54]too much.
[27:55]And that his characteristics really
[27:59]worked to set up the novel too, interesting.
[28:02]And then we have Haley, who's like more, I mean,
[28:05]aggressive, strong word, but assertive, lawyer,
[28:08]who doesn't want to be tricked out of money
[28:12]that she's owed by one particularly powerful gentleman
[28:14]who, by the way, that was quite a scene in the apartment
[28:19]in whatever part of Cleveland that was.
[28:21]So thank you for that.
[28:22]Readers will enjoy the little behind the scenes of that one.
[28:27]And she's protective of what she's built professionally
[28:33]and also of her family.
[28:35]But yet can't help herself from kind of like getting
[28:38]her own way, talk about her.
[28:41]I think she just wants everything.
[28:43]And that's really, as we know, almost impossible to have.
[28:47]And she, again, she's worked so hard.
[28:50]And I think that puts her in a vulnerable place
[28:52]because it has to be worth it.
[28:54]She fought through law school in the novel at one point.
[28:58]She failed the bar just by being amazing and everything.
[29:01]And I think that was sort of a shock to her.
[29:03]She's fought to have her children.
[29:05]And so I think she doesn't know what to do with all of that.
[29:08]Like alpha energy.
[29:09]And she still doesn't quite feel that what she's achieved
[29:12]has taped the box that she's looking for.
[29:15]And I think then she sort of has a spectacular wobble,
[29:18]I would say.
[29:19]But again, really flawed character.
[29:21]But I'm not very type-a.
[29:22]I identify a little bit more with MAC.
[29:25]But I know what it's like to want something so badly.
[29:27]And she, I think, really encapsulates that.
[29:30]Interesting.
[29:30]You also have a great character.
[29:33]The mom's best friend, right, who has been doing very nice
[29:37]things, not Haley's Mac's mom.
[29:40]And who is so funny because she kind of reminded me
[29:44]of my grandmother in a way, being like, oh,
[29:47]well, no matter what, I will pay for her hair to get done.
[29:49]Because that is more important than the beauty salon
[29:52]and those weekly trips.
[29:54]And to set the gray hair, like to make it just perfect
[29:57]and keep up appearances.
[29:59]So she...
[30:00]was such an interesting foil, too, because she's so giving.
[30:04]And yet, we see what matters in a way.
[30:07]Yes, yeah.
[30:08]And I think it was touching a little bit there
[30:11]on female friendship.
[30:12]Like, Max Mom hasn't been sort of healthy in years and years,
[30:16]and she's still sort of looking out for her,
[30:18]but in a sort of funny way.
[30:19]And I loved that, at least, she had that his mom had
[30:23]that group of friends and valued it,
[30:24]even if Max doesn't necessarily value it as much as he should.
[30:29]It's nice to think, like, even after years,
[30:32]like, which friends of yours, which friends of mine,
[30:35]like, who would be there, who would still be checking on us,
[30:37]and who would we still be checking on no matter what?
[30:40]I don't know.
[30:40]Yeah.
[30:41]It's lovely.
[30:41]One of my favorite moments was our little trip to the breakers.
[30:44]Thank you for that.
[30:45]Really enjoyed the red swimsuit, which I was like, gosh.
[30:50]But I ever have the confidence to wear a red swimsuit.
[30:53]I don't know.
[30:53]I don't think I would.
[30:55]So that trip was really fun.
[30:57]Your whole sense of place, whether it's
[30:59]wandering, passing dog walkers on streets in Cleveland,
[31:04]being in the hot Florida environment,
[31:06]the humidity while they're getting away.
[31:09]All of these places feel very real and tangible.
[31:13]How did you pull that off?
[31:16]I think it's a little bit of a love letter to America,
[31:20]even the sort of unusual neighborhoods in America,
[31:22]because I live in the UK.
[31:23]I miss it.
[31:24]I miss those.
[31:25]I mean, we used to visit Florida all the time.
[31:28]I'm from Ohio.
[31:29]So I think it's sort of, I can see things better now
[31:32]from a distance.
[31:33]And yeah, I miss them.
[31:34]Even the sort of crazy things that feature in the book,
[31:37]I think that's where it comes from.
[31:39]Tell me a little more about how you became a novelist.
[31:42]Well, I've always been a reader, always written stories.
[31:45]But it was sort of a roundabout way through publishing.
[31:48]I had a professor who said to me, my senior year of college,
[31:51]you should be a literary agent.
[31:53]And she hooked me up with her agents at the time.
[31:57]And I had like a little mini internship.
[31:59]And then I did a publishing course at what was then
[32:03]the Radcliffe Publishing course.
[32:05]And then I went and worked for agencies.
[32:07]So I was an agent in New York.
[32:09]And then I moved to London.
[32:11]And then I agented most recently.
[32:13]I agented children's books at Curtis Brown.
[32:15]And during that time, I started writing children's books.
[32:20]And so under my maiden name, published
[32:22]some early reader books.
[32:23]And that sort of got me the bug.
[32:25]Then it took a long time to start working on novels.
[32:29]And so why this story?
[32:31]What was the kernel that you couldn't let go of?
[32:33]I think it's about, I think it was sort of getting
[32:36]to that point in life where you're taking stock
[32:38]of what's going on and how things are going.
[32:42]And I think a little bit of it was wish fulfillment.
[32:44]Like, what if someone sent me money?
[32:46]That would be amazing.
[32:47]And also that sense of reaching for more than you may be
[32:51]biting off more than you can chew, whether it's
[32:53]with a job, whether it's with building a house,
[32:56]whether it's with a group of friends.
[32:58]And I really like that sort of feeling
[33:00]you get when you've almost made it, you're almost there.
[33:04]And then what if something pulls the rug out
[33:05]from underneath you, whether that's something
[33:08]like a bit crazy in the novel that might not happen,
[33:10]or whether that's illness or financial losing a job.
[33:15]And so that really started going through my mind.
[33:18]And then that's where the story came from.
[33:20]And I mean, it's really sort of a love story,
[33:23]a really messed up love story of marriage
[33:26]and these two that sort of have to get through this thing
[33:28]together.
[33:29]Yes.
[33:30]Well, that's like the cool part, right?
[33:33]All the little micro interactions.
[33:35]And you see like what happens when someone walks in at night,
[33:38]what happens in like a car, what happens?
[33:40]So those quiet moments of conversation or connection.
[33:45]And what does it tell us about our own lives, really?
[33:48]Right.
[33:49]Yeah, those were my favorite things to write
[33:50]is the sort of subtle and like what they don't say
[33:53]to each other.
[33:54]And they could have solved this whole thing much earlier
[33:57]if they weren't keeping secrets from each other,
[33:59]if they weren't.
[33:59]And yet they still have a sort of tenderness
[34:02]towards each other, I hope.
[34:03]That's what I was really going for,
[34:05]even when they want to kill each other,
[34:06]or you, the reader, want to kill both of them.
[34:08]And I tried to make them sort of human in that way.
[34:13]And I know, and we don't have to discuss this.
[34:15]The book launch is not exactly as you had planned
[34:18]given your own personal struggles.
[34:20]And I feel like it's so emblematic of the times
[34:25]and what is expected of authors that like,
[34:27]yes, there is also the personal life
[34:30]and all of the stuff that we deal with behind the scenes.
[34:32]And yet you are expected to like make pub day a thing
[34:36]and make the first few weeks a thing.
[34:37]And how did you end up dealing with that?
[34:41]Or does it just put everything in context?
[34:42]And you're like, who really cares?
[34:44]Yeah, so my husband was diagnosed three weeks
[34:48]before the book came out with cancer,
[34:50]pretty serious cancer.
[34:51]And it just kind of hit pause before that you're thinking,
[34:55]oh, is the book getting enough coverage?
[34:57]Is it, will people like it?
[34:59]What's on good reads?
[35:00]And it really just, I guess, wiped the slate.
[35:03]I mean, I just thought I've made this the best.
[35:05]I've made the best piece of art I can
[35:08]and I could at the time, I really enjoyed writing it.
[35:11]And I just had to say, this is what's out there.
[35:14]I hope people enjoy it.
[35:15]It's a wild ride, but it really does strip it back down
[35:18]to what's important in life.
[35:20]And I mean, in a way, it's sort of mirrored,
[35:23]you know, we're sort of going very slowly into the year
[35:27]and then all at once everything was different.
[35:29]And it reminds you, as I think Mac and Haley
[35:33]are reminded what's really important in life.
[35:35]And it actually allowed me to kind of enjoy the ride
[35:38]of the book.
[35:38]It sounds really weird, but a little bit more
[35:40]because I was like, you know, this isn't the end of the world.
[35:43]I'll try this again.
[35:44]I'll, you know, I hope people like it.
[35:47]And there's been some unexpected fun things that came along.
[35:50]And it was almost like you don't take it.
[35:52]You just take it as a win and you just think great.
[35:54]And then you turn your attention back
[35:56]to what's sort of very serious and happening.
[35:59]So yeah, it's been something.
[36:01]But I would say that in terms of the book,
[36:03]it really put it in perspective.
[36:04]Yeah.
[36:05]Well, again, I'm really sorry that you've had to.
[36:08]Deal with something that is so incredibly difficult
[36:11]and stressful.
[36:12]But I'm glad things are progressing the way they should.
[36:15]Well, what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[36:18]Keep going.
[36:19]I mean, all the stories that I hear are of people,
[36:23]you know, you sort of get to one goal post
[36:25]and then you just keep getting to the next,
[36:27]you know, you just keep pushing past
[36:28]and you'll always be nervous.
[36:30]You'll always second guess yourself
[36:31]and you just have to push through it.
[36:33]Well, Lauren, thank you so much.
[36:34]I'm glad we could talk about the book very slowly
[36:38]all at once.
[36:38]Congratulations.
[36:40]Thank you so much.
[36:41]Thanks, Zippy.
[36:42]All right.
[36:43]Take care.
[36:43]Thank you for all your time.
[36:44]Bye.
[36:45]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zippy.
[36:48]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[36:51]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[36:54]follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens
[36:57]and spread the word.
[36:58]Thanks so much.
[36:59]Oh, and bye the books.