Marnie Salsky, A PEOPLEHOOD | AMIUT YEHUDIT + Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch, Rabbi Yoshi Zweibach, and Rabbi Josh Franklin
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens and you're listening to Totally Book to the Zibi.
[0:06]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[0:08]In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best-selling, buzziest, or underrated authors
[0:14]and story creators whose work I think is worth your time.
[0:18]As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously a podcaster, I get a comprehensive
[0:24]look at everything that's coming up and spend my time curating the best books so you don't
[0:29]have to.
[0:30]Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do, every single
[0:35]day.
[0:36]For more information, go to zibimedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens.
[0:45]Today is an episode on the theme of on being Jewish now, which was the anthology I edited
[0:51]that came out November of 2024 and has spent 29 weeks on the USA Today Bestseller list.
[0:58]If you haven't checked out on being Jewish now, please do, but this episode is themed
[1:04]around that in that I wanted to hear from more experts, including multiple rabbis and
[1:10]a fabulous photographer and people who can shed light on what it means and how it feels
[1:17]to be Jewish now, which is why I did my book in the first place and why we have an accompanying
[1:22]sub stack you can check out at on being Jewish now dot sub stack dot com.
[1:27]I was incredibly lucky, honored, everything to have a zoom with three very distinguished
[1:35]rabbis all at once.
[1:37]I feel like the whole thing was some sort of a mitzvah that they did for me anyway.
[1:42]I spoke to Rabbi Amil Hirsch, Rabbi Yoshi Zweebag, and Rabbi Josh Franklin all together.
[1:50]And then afterwards, I spoke in person with Marni Salski, who wrote and photographed
[1:55]for a peoplehood about Jews in Canada.
[1:59]And here's a little bit more about the rabbis.
[2:01]Rabbi Amil Hirsch is the senior rabbi of Stephen Wise free synagogue in New York City.
[2:07]Internationally recognized for his leadership in Jewish affairs, Rabbi Hirsch is frequently
[2:11]cited in the media and the Jerusalem Post named him among the 50 most influential Jews
[2:17]of the year.
[2:19]To his arrival at Stephen Wise, he served for 12 years as executive director of the Association
[2:24]of Reform Zionists of America, the Israel arm of the North American Reform Movement.
[2:30]An accomplished teacher and public speaker, Rabbi Hirsch is the author of the lilac tree,
[2:34]a rabbis reflections on love, courage, and history, and co-author of the acclaimed One
[2:39]People Two Worlds, a reform rabbi and an orthodox rabbi explored the issues that divide
[2:44]them.
[2:45]The Yoshi's Rebek was born in Colorado Springs, Colorado, raised in Omaha, Nebraska, graduated
[2:51]from Princeton and was ordained as a rabbi by the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute
[2:56]of Religion in 1998.
[2:58]He trained as a Jewish educator at HUC's Los Angeles campus where he received an MA in
[3:03]Jewish education.
[3:05]He served congregation Beth Am in Los Altos Hills, California as a rabbi and educator
[3:10]for 11 years until moving to Israel with his family in 2009 to become director of
[3:15]HUC's year in Israel program.
[3:17]He also served as an instructor in Jewish liturgy and then Rabbi Yoshi came to Stephen Wise
[3:23]in 2012 as the head of school at wise school and was named the third senior rabbi of
[3:28]Stephen Wise Temple in 2015.
[3:30]Rabbi Yoshi is lecturer at Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in Los Angeles
[3:36]and a senior rabbinic fellow of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem.
[3:40]Rabbi Yoshi is also an author, musician, and composer.
[3:44]His publications include the teacher's guide to Shalom Yvrit II, Day of Days and Days
[3:48]of Wonder Knights of Peace, family prayers and song for morning and bedtime, and as part
[3:53]of Mottovu, he has released three albums published two books and performed across the United
[3:58]States.
[3:59]Finally, Rabbi Josh Franklin is senior rabbi of the Jewish Center of the Hamptons in East
[4:04]Hampton, where for the past nine years he has helped to revitalize and grow the Jewish community
[4:08]through engaging programming, transformative learning, inspiring worship, and expansive
[4:13]community outreach each summer, hundreds gather for Shabbat on the beach, an innovative
[4:19]and spiritually resonant prayer experience that has become a hallmark of Jewish life on
[4:22]the East End.
[4:24]Rabbi Franklin also co-authors a by-monthly column in Dan's papers, titled Hamptons Soul.
[4:30]And in Dan's papers, he was named People of the Year Eastenders who made the world
[4:34]a better place in 2022.
[4:37]For to his tenure in the Hamptons, he served on the clergy team at Temple Beth Elohim
[4:41]in Wellesley, Massachusetts.
[4:43]This summer, Rabbi Franklin will be relocating to Palm Beach Garden, Florida, where he will
[4:48]begin a new role as co-senior rabbi of Temple Judea.
[4:52]And then after my really interesting conversation with these three rabbis, I spoke to
[4:57]Marni Salsky, who is a Toronto-based photographer and documentary media artist whose work
[5:02]explores contemporary Jewish identity, collective memory, and the lived experience of antisemitism.
[5:07]She earned an MFA in documentary media from Toronto Metropolitan University.
[5:12]Her work spans installation, print, and film, and an earlier iteration of this project
[5:16]was screened at the Toronto Jewish Film Festival.
[5:19]I hope that after you listen to this double episode filled with leaders, thinkers, and creators
[5:27]of Jewish faith, you will learn more about what it means and how it feels to be Jewish,
[5:32]whether you are or not, and have a new perspective on what it means, which will inform
[5:37]how you go through the world.
[5:39]I hope you enjoy.
[5:40]I know I did.
[5:41]Welcome today.
[5:42]I have a very special episode with three incredibly prominent rabbis in the U.S. today
[5:49]who are going to talk about books and being Jewish and life, and who knows what, but
[5:55]I am honored to be in their company.
[5:57]We have Rabbi Emiel Hirsch, who is the senior rabbi at Stephenwise Free Synagogue, author
[6:03]of the Lilac Tree, and one people to world.
[6:07]We have Rabbi Yoshi Zweeb back from Stephenwise Temple and Schools in L.A., who has written
[6:14]two books.
[6:15]We have Rabbi Josh Franklin from the senior rabbi of the Jewish center of the Hamptons,
[6:21]author of Where Are You?
[6:23]Finding yourself in the Bible, which I have here.
[6:27]I edited a book called On Being Jewish Now, A Reflections from Authors and Advocates,
[6:31]which if I do another one, you all have to write for it.
[6:33]But anyway, it talked about what it means and how it feels to be Jewish now, and I would love,
[6:38]and I ask everybody to speak as if they were talking to a close friend over coffee,
[6:42]so perhaps not to your wider congregations, not in like a sermon-y type format, but just
[6:48]kind of how's it going to be Jewish today, which is obviously a giant question.
[6:53]Rabbi Franklin, let's start with you.
[6:55]I think if you were to ask most people right now, they would jump to the media rise and
[7:00]antisemitism, and designism, and tell you about how difficult it is to be Jewish.
[7:04]But I'm going to tell you about the flip side of that, which I think is the amazing
[7:08]consequence of that, or byproduct of it, rather.
[7:11]And that is there's been a resurgence of real interest in Jewish life, post-October 7th,
[7:17]and a real investment in people.
[7:18]They sometimes call themselves post-October 7th Jews, or October 7th Jews,
[7:23]October 8th Jews, whatever you want to call it.
[7:25]But there's a real deep intrigue, and get in touch with your Jewish roots.
[7:30]And we see that not only in Shabbat service attendance.
[7:33]We see that in interest in Jewish books and interest in Judaism as a whole.
[7:38]So while on the one hand, yes, it is a trying time to be Jewish.
[7:43]It's also a rather interesting time to be Jewish because there is so much of a fascination
[7:49]with the rediscovery of Jewish identities that have sometimes been put on hold.
[7:55]I think I might fall in the category a little bit of October 8th Jew,
[7:59]just because this is when it has come into my professional life.
[8:03]But who knows? Thank you for that.
[8:05]Rabbi Hirsch.
[8:07]First of all, I think we're living in unprecedented times to certain degrees in the American
[8:12]Jewish community.
[8:14]I don't think there's an American Jew who was born in America,
[8:18]who has experienced this kind of hostility in from the broader society.
[8:24]We do have refugees from Europe who live here now, who have seen worse.
[8:28]But no American Jew, I don't think, has really seen this or even expected
[8:34]to see this kind of hostility from the broader community, which I think is a somewhat of a shock
[8:42]for American Jews in two ways.
[8:44]One, it's completely, it's kind of virgin territory.
[8:48]They read to the extent that they know something.
[8:51]They've read some history books about this kind of anti-Semitism,
[8:54]but have never really experienced it nor expected it.
[9:01]And I agree with Rabbi Franklin that we are seeing a resurgence to a certain degree
[9:09]back into Jewish life, a greater curiosity, greater sensitivity to Jewish knowledge,
[9:16]Jewish wisdom, Jewish books, Jewish organizations, and synagogues.
[9:20]But we are also seeing as a result of the dynamics that have been unleashed post-October 7.
[9:26]I think we're seeing a polarization of American Jewry and a distancing on the part of some
[9:34]in the American Jewish community that who are representing views, both Jewishly as well as
[9:41]communally in terms of their relationship to Israel, for example,
[9:46]that is outside the mainstream and is very concerning.
[9:49]And I think we'll be challenging for American Jewry for years and even decades to come.
[9:54]So we are seeing both. We're seeing American Jewry, of course,
[10:00]uh, part of American society and we're seeing this kind of polarization in American society
[10:04]as well.
[10:05]So it's bound to affect the Jewish community.
[10:07]But the dynamics done least by October 7th have created a whole new environment, only
[10:15]a little bit of which we really understand now.
[10:18]These dynamics will continue to unfold for many years to come and we'll understand more
[10:24]as the years go by.
[10:26]Rabbi Yoshi, what are your thoughts on this?
[10:28]Well, I was going to kind of try to weave together the comments of my esteemed colleagues
[10:33]and thank you, Zibi, for having all of us on.
[10:35]It's a real pleasure to be together and I love the opportunity to connect across time
[10:40]zones and just to be with really wonderful people.
[10:44]What I would agree with with Rabbi Franklin, of course, is we are seeing that surge.
[10:49]I mentioned, right, as we started to record last night, I had the privilege of interviewing
[10:54]Rachel Goldberg Pollan at the Temple and there were 1500 people there.
[10:58]I mean, it was like Yom Kippur and Neela from the very, very last row of our sanctuary
[11:04]to the front row.
[11:05]We had people sitting on the floor and so that kind of interest and excitement about
[11:11]coming in hearing and author, obviously her story is particularly poignant and dramatic.
[11:17]But since I've been a senior rabbi at the Temple, we haven't had that kind of turnout
[11:22]for a speaker in my tenure and I was asking some of my colleagues and they really don't
[11:27]remember a time and certainly not in recent memories.
[11:30]So I think that says a lot about Rachel and about her book, but also about the degree
[11:36]to which people are energized around some of those themes.
[11:40]And demographically, it was very interesting too.
[11:42]If you had a book talk at the Temple in We're in Los Angeles, but we're not near
[11:48]where most of young professionals are living in L.A., so you would expect the demographic
[11:53]would be much older and it was a really mixed group going all the way down the high school
[12:00]age and up to our most senior members.
[12:03]So that was really beautiful and exciting.
[12:05]So I think that gets it, the themes that Rabbi Franklin was talking about.
[12:09]And then with Rabbi Hirsch, I would agree with you 100% that what we're seeing in America
[12:15]is unprecedented and you reference this, but just to underscore that point, it's obviously
[12:21]quite precedented when we think about Jewish history.
[12:24]So the kinds of things that we're seeing, some people will talk about, you know, kind of
[12:27]a return to the mean or now we're returning to sort of what normal Jewish life has been
[12:33]throughout most of our history, which is a lot of antisemitism and a lot of hatred focused
[12:40]upon us also allies, also through friends.
[12:43]That's to be sure last night's program, for example, we had co-sponsors of the program
[12:48]from outside the Jewish community who cared deeply about Jews.
[12:52]So again, I'm really in heated agreement with both of them.
[12:56]I guess the only layer I'd add is just that and we're going to get to this.
[13:00]I think when we talk about books is that we have a lot of resilience and a lot of technology,
[13:06]Jewish technology in dealing with this return to the mean, if that's actually what's
[13:11]happening, we actually know as a people and in our wisdom, literature collected over thousands
[13:18]of years how to respond to these outside forces that are painful and difficult, but we can
[13:25]navigate them.
[13:26]I just had Zimbi just to what Rabbi Zwabek mentioned, that the fact that it's happening
[13:33]in America, I completely agree that some people refer to it as like taking a vacation
[13:39]from history for the last four generations and now we've reverted back to the mean, but
[13:45]it has shaken something fundamental within the American Jewish community about the notion
[13:50]and the expectation of American exceptionalism.
[13:53]That is, if we convinced ourselves that Europe is Europe and the Middle East is the Middle
[13:58]East and other places or other places, but this kind of thing can never happen in America
[14:03]America's different America's exceptional.
[14:06]In terms of its broad constitutional and social and political makeup that then benefits
[14:14]the Jewish community, it's not that American Jews thought America was exceptional in
[14:20]terms of its Jewish relationship to the Jewish community because there was something about
[14:24]the Jews first and foremost, but that there was something about America that predisposed
[14:31]it to be welcoming to our people as well as other peoples and to the degree that this sentiment
[14:39]begins to settle in the American Jewish community that, well, this notion that we had
[14:46]about American exceptionalism is now shaken to a certain degree.
[14:52]I think it's bound to hammer ramifications for us in all kinds of respects, including
[14:57]political.
[14:58]It's bound to be reflected politically in the years to come.
[15:01]Well, let's back up for two seconds.
[15:03]Why did each of you decide to become a rabbi?
[15:07]And what was like the backup plan?
[15:09]What would you have done had you not become a rabbi?
[15:11]Go ahead, Rabbi Franklin.
[15:12]Well, I know a little bit about Rabbi Hirsch's background too.
[15:16]Like him, I'm also the son of a rabbi, and sons of rabbis go through something that's
[15:21]really interesting, our entire lives.
[15:23]Rabbi's wife, are you a son of a rabbi as well?
[15:26]I'm even that category we call them R.K.'s, Rabbi's kid.
[15:31]So he might have a different story here of my entire life, as I'm sure with Rabbi Hirsch,
[15:35]I was asked, do you want to be a rabbi just like your dad?
[15:37]And my answer was, no, absolutely not.
[15:41]That's his thing.
[15:42]It was a strong Jewish identity growing up in my household, which about dinner is a Friday.
[15:47]I went to Jewish summer camp, but I really didn't know what I wanted to do.
[15:52]I just knew I didn't want to be a rabbi.
[15:54]And I've got two older brothers.
[15:56]And what I realized eventually is that people kept asking me the question, do you want
[15:59]to be a rabbi just like your dad?
[16:02]And I suddenly had a realization that I was the only one of my father's kids who was
[16:06]being asked that question.
[16:08]And they were seeing something that I didn't really see in myself that I didn't really
[16:11]recognize.
[16:12]My calling came from other people asking a question that was stirring and forced a lot of
[16:19]self-reflection over the years.
[16:21]So eventually, when I was in college, my answer was still no for some time, but it ended
[16:27]up wearing down to maybe.
[16:29]And then one of my mentors was asking me what I wanted to do after I graduated.
[16:35]And she was hoping that I would continue on to get a PhD with her in history.
[16:41]And instead, it came out of my mouth as I think I want to be a rabbi.
[16:47]And that was one of the first times that I actually set it out loud, not the realization,
[16:51]oh, this is my calling.
[16:54]This is what I want to do.
[16:55]So if I hadn't gone down that course, I probably would have taken up the call to get
[17:00]a PhD, but I'm glad I didn't because I love what I do peer pressured at its best.
[17:06]Yeah.
[17:08]Rabbi Yoshi, how about you?
[17:10]Well, yeah, not the son of a rabbi.
[17:12]My father actually was a surgeon and my mother had a background in social work.
[17:18]And for a long time, I did want to be a doctor, but when I was working at a summer camp
[17:22]in California and I'd grown up going to Jewish summer camp because my mom, that was something
[17:28]she insisted on all from the Midwest.
[17:31]I'm not one of these East Coast West Coast Rabbis.
[17:35]I'm right in the center grew up in Omaha, Nebraska, a very small Jewish community.
[17:40]And my mom knew that if I was going to really attach to community, I needed camp and youth
[17:45]group and those kinds of things, which ended up being very successful for myself and my
[17:50]brother and sister in terms of Jewish identity.
[17:52]And it was a beloved mentor who is just now retiring from the rabbinate Rabbi Robert Davis,
[17:58]who was once my camp counselor.
[18:00]And then he was my camp director.
[18:03]And in his role as camp director, he'd hired me to be a counselor and a song leader.
[18:08]I do music and those kinds of things.
[18:10]And at the end of the summer, he did exit interviews with every staff member.
[18:14]And he told me that I worked really hard and I'd done good work that summer and then he
[18:19]asked if I had ever thought about a career in camping.
[18:22]And I said, I was 19 years old and I said, you know, nothing has touched me more deeply
[18:27]than Jewish summer camp over the last five, six years of my life.
[18:30]Yes, I'm thinking about it.
[18:33]And then he was in rabbinical school at the time and he said, have you ever considered
[18:37]the rabbinate?
[18:38]And I said, no, I'd never thought about that in my entire life.
[18:42]But I'm thinking about it now, as you say it.
[18:46]And within about two months, I made that decision that I wanted to be a rabbi.
[18:49]I went back to college.
[18:50]I was a sophomore in college and I switched my major.
[18:54]I was going to be probably political science and I ended up becoming a religion major.
[19:01]And I never really looked back once I made that decision that was sealed for me.
[19:06]And now, almost, you know, 30 years in the rabbinate, I'm feeling like I'm starting to
[19:13]get the hang of it a little bit and a little bit.
[19:17]But it's certainly feeling like I made the right choice for me.
[19:20]Amazing.
[19:21]How about you, Rabbi?
[19:22]Who's son of a rabbi?
[19:23]I never wanted to be a rabbi.
[19:24]I went to law school.
[19:26]I became an attorney in the New York State Bar.
[19:30]We got married.
[19:31]I married a former classmate of mine.
[19:34]I had been growing up in Israel and I had gone to school, law school at the London School
[19:39]of Economics where I met my future wife.
[19:43]So we got married in a year after law school in Israel.
[19:47]But on the way back, her mother always wanted to see her daughter married in London.
[19:52]So we agreed that we would get married in London on the way back to New York.
[19:57]And the Dean of the rabbinical school, who was a...
[20:00]friend of my father happened to be at the wedding.
[20:01]And in London, the customers at the grooms give a charge
[20:06]in honor of the bride.
[20:08]So I did that and I worked hard.
[20:09]I was deeply in love.
[20:11]And I gave the speech, five minute speech.
[20:14]People were laughing and rolling on the floor
[20:16]and crying all at the same time.
[20:17]This guy comes up to me and he sticks his hand out
[20:20]and he says, you don't know me.
[20:21]My name is Paul Steinberg.
[20:23]I'm the dean of the rabbinical school in New York City.
[20:26]You're wasting your time as an attorney.
[20:28]You should be a rabbis.
[20:31]By that evening, I had decided to be a rabbis.
[20:33]I had never given thought about it.
[20:35]So I applied.
[20:37]It took a year until I could move the process forward.
[20:42]But I went to rabbinical school a year later.
[20:46]And I've never looked back as well.
[20:49]And I know this.
[20:50]I chose the right thing for myself for two reasons.
[20:53]Number one, there was only room for one really great attorney
[20:57]in our household and it wasn't going to be me.
[21:00]And secondly, I feel I'm a much better rabbi
[21:06]than I was as an attorney.
[21:09]Wow.
[21:10]Well, you are all representatives of the people of the book
[21:15]and you speak from the heart, telling stories,
[21:20]retelling stories all the time.
[21:22]And yet you've also all wanted to write books
[21:26]have written, publicized, all the things.
[21:29]I'm sure you've read eight million books yourselves.
[21:32]Why turn to the page?
[21:34]How do you decide even what stories to tell
[21:37]when I'm sure each of you could tell 1,000 stories on every day?
[21:41]How do you decide what you want to live on forever
[21:43]in book form and why those stories?
[21:46]I'm happy to jump in.
[21:48]Yep.
[21:49]Clearly, the Jewish tradition we call ourselves
[21:54]and are called the people of the book.
[21:55]It's so core and central to who we are.
[21:58]And I certainly grew up in a house with lots of books.
[22:02]And there was always an expectation that we'd
[22:04]be reading and talking about what we were reading.
[22:07]And today, it's just such a wonderful way
[22:09]to stay in conversation literally.
[22:12]Like everybody today, I also have a podcast.
[22:15]And a lot of the guests on my podcast
[22:17]are people who are promoting a book that they've written.
[22:21]And I really enjoy that.
[22:23]It's a very intimate way to have that conversation.
[22:25]And I also like that I have a homework assignment.
[22:27]I'm interviewing this person on such and such a day.
[22:30]I ask to get that book read.
[22:33]And the publisher is always really accessible and helpful
[22:37]in sending me a copy so that I can dive in.
[22:40]Or if there's a book talk in person and public,
[22:44]like I did last night, it gives me an opportunity
[22:46]to read the book.
[22:47]And I read it differently when I know I'm
[22:48]going to interview the person.
[22:49]And it's a real privilege to do that.
[22:52]But it's an opportunity to experience
[22:54]other people's pain, their joy, questions that they have.
[22:58]And some of the books are books that I get to choose
[23:01]that I just decide.
[23:02]I mean, ultimately, I choose all of them, I guess,
[23:04]because I get to decide who's on my podcast.
[23:07]But sometimes a book comes to me.
[23:09]So I'm thinking about some of the things
[23:11]that I'm reading right now.
[23:12]And it's a combination of things I wanted to read,
[23:15]because my wife was reading it, a friend was reading it.
[23:17]And then I'm also part of a weekly Talmud study group.
[23:20]So another book I'm reading is Bava Batra,
[23:24]which is filled with some really good stuff.
[23:27]And then some stuff that it's not as easy to see
[23:31]how it is relevant to my everyday life.
[23:34]But I enjoy diving into that week after week.
[23:37]And the beauty, and I'll close with this,
[23:39]I think that the beauty of knowing that I'm reading something
[23:43]through time and space is really special.
[23:46]I can read something last night.
[23:48]We talked a lot with Rachel Goglberg-Poulin
[23:50]about Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning.
[23:53]So that's a book I've read many times.
[23:55]And many, many other Jews throughout time and space
[23:58]have experienced that book, including
[24:01]Hersh Goglberg-Poulin, who obviously was deeply touched
[24:05]by that book and now his mom.
[24:07]So I love that conversation.
[24:08]And then if you look at a text like Bava Batra,
[24:12]and you think about Jews studying that over now
[24:15]a couple of thousand years almost
[24:17]in different environments throughout the Jewish world,
[24:21]how exciting, and again, what a privilege
[24:24]to be an inheritor of a tradition like that.
[24:27]So I just, I can't imagine what my life would be
[24:31]without those connections.
[24:33]Great, how am I Franklin?
[24:34]How am I?
[24:35]And one of the ideas that I mull over in my head
[24:37]came from one of my mentors, Rabbi Larry Hoffman.
[24:41]He said something that I wish I had thought of first
[24:43]because it's such a great gem of wisdom.
[24:46]He said, if you really want to understand what Judaism is,
[24:48]we've been putting metaphors throughout the generations
[24:51]about what Judaism is.
[24:52]It's a religion that's people.
[24:54]It's a civilization.
[24:55]He said Judaism is really just a conversation
[24:58]about all the things that affect our lives.
[25:00]Be it the history, Torah, Talmud,
[25:04]be it what is peoplehood, be it conversation about Israel.
[25:09]And that's always stuck with me.
[25:11]And it's really influenced my way of how I understand
[25:14]the books that I read, because the books that I'm reading
[25:17]are a conversation about the Jewish experience and what it is.
[25:20]So as Rabbi Zwabak mentioned, the Talmud
[25:23]is a compendium of pretty much conversations
[25:27]about the law, about the stories that make up our people.
[25:30]And even today, what we're trying to do
[25:32]is we're trying not to give the authoritative version
[25:36]of what Judaism is or what the Torah says,
[25:38]but have the conversation that back and forth
[25:40]that dialogue about it.
[25:42]And that's one of the things that I love about Judaism
[25:44]that it really is the dialogue.
[25:47]So when I'm choosing to read something,
[25:49]I'm choosing to read a aspect of the conversation,
[25:53]be it about the history, be it about the Talmud, Torah, whatever it is.
[25:57]And when I wrote my book,
[25:59]I was thinking a lot about what aspects of the conversation
[26:03]have not really been highlighted
[26:04]or even talked about it all,
[26:06]because I'm not just gonna repair it
[26:08]whatever someone has already said and say it better.
[26:11]I want to add a new facet to understanding
[26:13]and the corpus of the conversation
[26:15]and really give a different perspective
[26:17]that might not be out there.
[26:18]So again, I love this idea that Judaism is a conversation
[26:22]and the books that I'm reading are all a part
[26:25]of that larger conversation and it's why books are so essential
[26:30]to really understanding the Jewish experience
[26:32]and why for sometimes called.
[26:34]And I guess maybe the Muslims called us the people of the book
[26:36]and that's not really what they meant,
[26:38]but I'll take that title and I'll own it
[26:40]and say, yeah, whether people of books,
[26:42]but not the people of the book.
[26:45]Rabbi Hirsch.
[26:46]I remember it was my first year out of rabbinical school.
[26:49]I was in a large Manhattan congregation
[26:51]as an assistant rabbi and somebody walked in.
[26:54]I took my collection of books over my years
[26:57]at the seminary and I put it on myself.
[27:01]It was about one 20th of the books
[27:04]that I have now or I've read.
[27:06]And they walk in this couple who remembers it
[27:09]as synagogue and they look around and they say,
[27:11]all these books, he says,
[27:13]I don't have time Rabbi to read these books,
[27:16]but I want somebody who does read these books
[27:19]to tell me what is in them,
[27:23]which was a pretty good definition of the rapid it in for me.
[27:27]Back in my, it was my first year as a rabbi.
[27:30]Then like, and I thought like, what a privilege
[27:34]to be in a vocation where not only do you need to find time
[27:39]to read books and to think.
[27:41]But this is actually a part of the job description
[27:44]of the vocation.
[27:45]It's an essential critical role.
[27:49]And I've come to realize that very much
[27:53]that we are in this vocation that requires us
[27:57]to convey knowledge and information constantly
[28:01]to be learning, constantly to be absorbing new ways
[28:05]of looking at issues and problems.
[28:07]And if nothing comes in, nothing comes out.
[28:10]So that is a really, really important function.
[28:15]And I would just add one thing about my own reading,
[28:17]what I've discovered and what I've,
[28:19]what I've tried to do over the course of three plus decades
[28:23]is it dawned on me at some point
[28:26]that the great thinkers of human civilization
[28:31]essentially were all preoccupied
[28:34]with raising the same questions
[28:37]and attempting to answer in various disciplines
[28:41]where they specialize.
[28:43]So all philosophers are raising the same questions
[28:47]as religious people and secular philosophers
[28:51]are fundamentally raising the same questions,
[28:54]authors, composers.
[28:57]They're all basically focused on what is the meaning of life
[29:02]if you're religious, what does God want of me?
[29:05]And so I began to read the great literary figures
[29:10]who wrote essays about what is most important to them.
[29:15]And what I discovered is there is just so much here
[29:18]that applies to Judaism and the key for us
[29:21]is to find the pattern, the unifying thread
[29:26]that unites, you know, told story who wrote a bunch of essays
[29:31]with Jewish thinkers who wrote a bunch of essays
[29:33]about what is the meaning of life.
[29:36]I have to tell you my grandfather,
[29:39]technically my step, grandfather,
[29:41]my grandmother's second husband,
[29:42]but he was my grandfather before I was born.
[29:45]And was also a rabbi and a miniature book collector
[29:49]and he ended up being one of the world's biggest
[29:51]miniature book collectors by the time he passed away.
[29:54]And the first time I ever wrote the thing,
[29:56]it's because he published one of my short stories
[29:58]in this tiny little book for me.
[30:00]for my birthday and that's one of the main reasons I'm even on this whole writing, reading,
[30:06]professional kick. It's the power of a rabbi and a book and a good idea. So I'm very grateful
[30:12]to him. I spoke to rabbi Raphael Shor. I don't know if you know him. He's in Israel. And I had
[30:18]coffee with him soon after October 7th, maybe like six months after. And I was so frustrated because
[30:24]I felt like nothing I could possibly do or say would change anybody's minds. Like it was just
[30:28]all falling on deaf ears. And I said something to him about there has to be a better way to
[30:34]sort of fight anti-Semitism. And he kind of laughed in a kind way and said, your goal should not be
[30:42]fighting anti-Semitism. It should be working on uniting the Jewish people. How do you feel about that?
[30:49]And how do you feel about what we can do now? Rabbi Hirsch, why don't you start this time?
[30:53]Well, first of all, we do need to fight anti-Semitism. We, the Jewish community,
[30:59]we do need to respond. It makes a difference. We can't simply lay fellow. And we have to support those
[31:05]individuals and Jewish organizations that are fighting back. And we have to support political
[31:11]candidates who are prepared to be on our side. All that being said, at the end of the day,
[31:17]what will determine the viability, health, well-being, and future of the American Jewish community
[31:26]is what Rabbi Franklin spoke about at the beginning, which is the instilling of a love of Judaism,
[31:32]a commitment to Jewish values, and a desire to pass that on to our posterity. And that is the
[31:39]primary function of those of us in this vocation in the rabbinate and overseeing synagogues.
[31:48]And at the end of the day, this is the central challenge of the American Jewish community. It
[31:54]remains the central challenge even after October 7th and even after all the discussion about anti-Semitism
[32:01]is have we instilled enough Jewish identity? And it's impossible to instill Jewish identity without
[32:08]knowledge and Jewish literacy. Have we done that to a sufficient degree so that the people we're
[32:16]educating now and interacting with now themselves have a strong Jewish identity, which they want
[32:23]to pass on to their the next generation. So that's always the key. And I want to reiterate what
[32:29]Rabbi Franklin said. It's not simply a utilitarian perspective. It is we are entirely absorbed by the
[32:38]joy and the elevation and the uplift of what it means to be a Jew. And I might reframe the question
[32:45]a little bit if I could. Sometimes the question is how do we fight anti-Semitism? And I think the
[32:50]better question is what are we fighting for? And if we're fighting simply for our lives or for our
[32:57]safety, then you know what's generally going to happen is people are going to assimilate or hide
[33:02]because they assume that's the best thing to do. And that's what I was saying. No, we've got
[33:06]something to fight for. That's the Jewish experience, Judaism. There be a couple months ago, I was
[33:12]actually at the ADL conference and I was sitting in on a session that you were moderating about
[33:17]the book. Don't feed the lion. Oh, yeah. That was me. Yeah. And so I, it's a great book.
[33:23]Uh, beyond a laundry. Yeah, really hard to pronounce name. But I, I talked to the book. I read it.
[33:29]I really enjoyed it. I shared it with my daughter. It was a whole session on parenting for anti-Semitism
[33:35]that organ experience. And I've got a 10 year old and a seven year old daughter. And essentially,
[33:39]what I took away from the book was that there are a number of different avenues,
[33:44]a number of different methods that we can use to fight anti-Semitism. One of them is being an
[33:50]online advocate going online, saying and really fighting for the, the Jewish cause and shaping the
[33:55]narrative. Another one is physical violence, which is sometimes employed by an extreme,
[34:02]an extreme way to fight anti-Semitism. And maybe there's a time and a place for it under certain
[34:06]circumstances. And you know, I could go down the list of all these different ways that are used
[34:11]throughout the book, writing a letter, setting meetings, developing allies. But the one that I think
[34:16]the book highlighted and I would highlight even further is the experience of Shabbat and celebrating
[34:23]Judaism in the home. And that's the, what, what are we fighting for? We're fighting for this experience
[34:28]that we find so precious. Life of farming, life giving that has enabled us to survive for 2000 years,
[34:35]4,000 years, however you want to date it. But we're not fighting for our survival. We're,
[34:40]the thing that we, that has enabled us to survive Judaism is the thing that we're really fighting for.
[34:47]It is. I love the question as painful as it is because it's so urgent. And I think it is,
[34:54]as I referenced earlier, just a part of what it is to be a Jew, even though, as Ami said earlier,
[35:01]for most American Jews, particularly those born in this country,
[35:05]they don't have firsthand experience of it. So it feels unprecedented. But I think about
[35:10]not just combating antisemitism, which I agree with Ami, we, we have to do. Now, not every single one
[35:16]of us has to be a warrior in that battle. It might be that we have our representatives who do that
[35:22]work for us with our full support, but that's their job. And, and that's important. I think because
[35:28]I don't want every single Jew to feel like, you know, with my job on this college campus,
[35:32]I have a, my youngest daughter's a senior in college happens to be a Columbia bar during
[35:37]university. And it's been a very hostile environment over the last few years. And I've reminded
[35:41]her that like, she, all by herself does not have to be the one who takes on the, the forces
[35:49]who are trying to delegitimize Israel. She can be part of that struggle, but she can also choose
[35:54]given her interest and personality. She could choose to be the one who's there for Friday night
[35:59]dinner at Hillel or at Kabat or she's the one who's doing k-roof outreach and trying to get
[36:05]friends to join her for some joyous opportunities to celebrate their Judaism. So there's not,
[36:10]not everybody has to be a warrior as a war in that battle. But I like to also think about just
[36:15]to add to what Josh and Ami said, but I'm going to agree with what they said is that, you know,
[36:21]I like to think about there's combating antisemitism. And there's also how we manage it because,
[36:27]you know, it feels like if there's like a battle against antisemitism, you know, someday we're going
[36:31]to win that battle or we're going to lose that battle. But it all, it starts to make it a zero,
[36:36]some game and the reality of Jewish life is it ebbs and flows. And it probably isn't ever going
[36:42]to disappear entirely as long as human beings are around. And so yes, we need to confront it.
[36:50]But we also need to figure out how to manage it. And certainly the allies that we have already
[36:56]and the allies that we help to create can be tremendous, you know, can really be very, very helpful
[37:05]in that work. And then there's the sort of self-care that we need to engage in so that we can deal
[37:12]with that. And so we don't default to what Josh said happens often, which is someone says,
[37:17]okay, I'm either going to assimilate because it's frightening. I'm going to run away, you know,
[37:23]that that makes sense in the face of some type of actual violence that is being directed toward me.
[37:31]So how do we manage that? And how do we cope with that? And I think part of it is expectation
[37:37]setting. If the expectation that we said is America's exceptional and we should be able to live
[37:43]in a world without any anti-Semitism at all, true, I agree, that would be wonderful. But if that's
[37:48]the expectation we set for people, there's going to be a lot of disappointed people out there
[37:53]because Jewish history would suggest to us that what we have experienced over these last,
[37:59]however many decades of this so-called golden age really is a aberration in some ways. And so
[38:07]how do you set the expectation that, you know, part of what is to be Jewish is to live with the
[38:12]reality that there are people out there for all sorts of reasons, scapegoating, jealousy, ignorance,
[38:19]you name it are going to have these negative attitudes towards Jews and that's just part of the burden
[38:25]of being a Jew. And there is the great joy of being a Jew that accompanies that burden. It's not just
[38:33]the negatives as Deborah Lipstadt talks about, you know, it's not just the always of Judaism,
[38:39]there's all the joys of Judaism too. And so one of the coping mechanisms in addition to setting that
[38:44]expectation that I think is a sensible one is also then saying, and let's look at all of the beautiful
[38:50]wonderful things that come with being Jewish, including this incredible library of Jewish wisdom that
[38:57]you are an inheritor of. And what makes it even more profound is that it's your inheritance,
[39:03]it's not just wonderful wisdom that is part of what humanity gets to enjoy. You can have the
[39:10]pride of knowing, wow, this is my people. My actual ancestors helped to create this and I'm
[39:16]continuing to be part of that conversation. Then there's all of the joy of holiday celebrations.
[39:22]And then there's the joy and strength we get in Jewish community, knowing that we're part of
[39:26]people that actually connects in deep, deep ways again through time and space. Amazing, wow.
[39:35]Well, thank you for this, a bridge master class in Judaism today. Thank you all for your immense
[39:42]contributions and for being stewards of our community and our in our faith. So thank you so much.
[39:48]And I hope to see you all in person someday. Thank you. Thanks so much, Debbie. Okay, thank you.
[39:55]Bye bye. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Welcome, Marnie. Thank you so much.
[40:00]coming on totally booked. What am I even doing here? To talk about your amazing new book,
[40:05]peoplehood, a peoplehood. It's amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's really
[40:11]just beyond. I'm thrilled to be here and talk about it with you. Well, this book is as much
[40:18]visual here. I'm going to try to show on the YouTube accompaniment to this podcast, the beauty of
[40:25]the photos that you've captured as a photographer that you are. Tell us about the book,
[40:30]the project, everything. Thank you. So I'll give you my two minutes. Yes, pitch. That's funny.
[40:38]That I used to describe the work. So a peoplehood, you could do. It's an intimate and layered
[40:44]exploration of contemporary Jewish identity. And I approached the work using what's called a
[40:51]conceptual documentary lens. So it's a documentary work, but it's also interpreted in an artistic
[40:59]or poetic way. So I weave together present-day photography, archival imagery, interview excerpts,
[41:08]and digital and print media, kind of the stuff that surrounds us every day. Things like social media,
[41:15]and tax, and emails, and articles. And then the result, montaging all this material together,
[41:24]is that these elements, they really end up serving as artifacts that mirror the various facets
[41:31]through which Jewish identity is witness and refracted and archived back. And so why this project?
[41:40]Well, the impetus for this project was about 15 years ago, I was- I love this Canadian accent.
[41:49]It's such a distinctive accent. It's so funny. You don't even hear it?
[41:53]I don't even hear it. No. So about 15 years ago, I was restoring a series of archival
[42:00]photographs for a synagogue, and it was from images from Poland from the 1890s to the 1930s of
[42:09]small towns. And it really captured a wide swath of what Jewish life was like then. So it had
[42:15]images of people that lived in cities, people that lived in rural environments, people that were
[42:22]financially well-off, people that were extremely core, people that were religious, people that were
[42:26]very secular. And it made me start to think about parallels within the Toronto Jewish community.
[42:33]And what some people are unaware of is Canada has the world's fourth largest Jewish community,
[42:40]and Toronto has the largest Jewish community within Toronto. What are the other three?
[42:45]The other three would be Montreal and Vancouver. What are the other
[42:50]biggest populations of Jewish people? The United States is wrong.
[42:53]Oh, sorry. Israel, United States, France? France? Oh, yeah.
[42:58]And then Canada. And antisemitism has been rising long before October 7th. And I started to think
[43:07]about what is the impact of antisemitism upon how one identifies as being Jewish, regardless of how
[43:15]one identifies as being Jewish. So the result of the work is that it really created a textured
[43:22]portrait looking at diversity, belonging, and the impact of antisemitism on that. And the material
[43:31]within the book is primarily created between 2018 and 2022. And looking back at it today,
[43:39]through the lens that we have now, it clearly captured a community that was on a precipice,
[43:45]but not aware that the attack by Hamas on October 7th was right around the corner.
[43:52]And the resulting explosion of global Jew hatred. I mean, I feel like there has been a lot
[43:58]in Canada. Canada is terrible in terms of living as a Jewish person. And the reason why I say
[44:04]it's terrible is because there is not enough action by all levels of government, municipal
[44:13]provincial, which is your state level, federal to enforce rules that are already on the books.
[44:20]So we are a minority community. We're 4% of the Toronto population. And it's not enough for
[44:30]just Jews to say, this is rotten. What's happening here? There needs to be a larger voice that's
[44:38]held or heard. And I often say to people, you know, it's not enough for them to say, well,
[44:44]we're going to protect Jewish neighborhoods and we're going to have police outside Jewish institutions.
[44:49]Jews live throughout the city. So, you know, we should not be treated as a second-class citizen,
[44:55]our rights should be enforced wherever we live in the city. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've been watching
[45:01]sort of a guest at all of the temple destruction and attacks. And I've been hearing people like you
[45:08]who seem to be calling into a void, being like, could anybody please pay attention to what's
[45:13]happening to us in Canada. And I'm paying attention. But I feel sometimes we're all power, what are
[45:18]we supposed to do, aside from just amplifying the voices. So, you know, I think, I don't know what
[45:24]the answer is. And I would say that, you know, my book is, it's not didactic. But there's a small,
[45:33]you know, very Hamish community synagogue that's five minutes from me that has been attacked
[45:39]11 times since October South. Enough that you lose count of it. The first time was horrific.
[45:48]Second time was horrific. Third time. And then it's, all of a sudden, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
[45:54]And it's terrifying. It's terrible. Yeah. So, the book. So, the book is what I see as the
[46:04]alternate form for this piece of work. So, originally, it was a multimedia gallery installation.
[46:12]And then it was a standalone film. But the book allows the art of a book, just the vessel of a book,
[46:23]allows you to digest the material differently. It's small. It's intimate. You could flip back and
[46:30]forth through it. It has a nonlinear narrative structure. So, it's organized around themes versus
[46:39]a chronological timeline. So, these themes include things such as belonging, community, cultural trauma,
[46:48]fortitude, empowerment. And at first, when you first get the book, it may seem that it's
[46:55]very fragmented. But as you spend more time with it, you start to see if there is a cohesive
[47:00]structure to it. So, how do you feel about what's coming next for Toronto? So, I don't know what
[47:07]the future holds. I do, you know, as other people have said, we're living in a very specific moment.
[47:14]And it's nothing that hasn't happened in the past. And I think that a lot of us were perhaps
[47:23]caught off guard, but have now regained our footing and really see the reality of how systemic
[47:31]a lot of the hatred has become in institutions. And therefore, we go on words. And, you know,
[47:40]it's a balance of you've got to live life and be joyful. And you also have to stand up and
[47:51]be the voice, because if not you, then who is. What is the hope for the book? Who do you want
[47:55]to find this book? What do you want readers to do with it? I just really want people who are
[48:00]Jewish to feel seen within it. And that's a lot of comments that I had back from people that
[48:07]had seen the work previously, is that it put into words things that I didn't know how to say.
[48:12]Or I saw myself, even though it's not, you know, exactly me, I saw either remnants of my
[48:19]childhood or my family or the way that I look at things or how I've been treated in various spaces.
[48:26]And for people that aren't Jewish, I would like them just to understand the complexity
[48:34]of what it feels like to be a minority community in a country. And different things that people face,
[48:42]different things that people, there are different things that are said to them, you know,
[48:46]I don't dress as a religious Jew. And my skin is white, so people don't necessarily think anything
[48:55]in terms of, oh, what is this person's background? Or maybe I shouldn't say something?
[48:59]Or so you end up hearing things. And I think in the Twitter comments or X comments that are now,
[49:06]they're very revealing of, you know, I don't have a Jewish last name. But this is what's been said
[49:11]to me because my name sounds as if I'm Jewish. So it's just people to get a little bit of a window
[49:16]into it. Well, congratulations on the book. It's beautiful. The stories are beautiful. The photos
[49:22]gorgeous. And just having this as a document, sort of a testament to an archive of this moment,
[49:30]both past and present and a way for us all to unite, it's really powerful. So thank you.
[49:35]Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi,
[49:40]formerly momstone have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[49:46]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.