Caroline Hallemann, THE KENNEDYS AND THE WINDSORS: The Story of Two Dynasties, One Born, One Made
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
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[0:27]Caroline Hallamin is the author of The Kennedys and The Windsor's.
[0:30]Caroline is the digital director of Town and Country Magazine, where she writes about
[0:34]culture, society, entertainment, and the world of the rich and powerful.
[0:38]Her work is often focused on the British monarchy, and the closest thing America has
[0:42]to the royal family, the Kennedys.
[0:44]She lives in Nashville, Tennessee.
[0:46]Welcome Caroline.
[0:47]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about the Kennedys and The Windsor's,
[0:51]the story of two dynasties, one board, one born, not board, born, and one made.
[0:57]Congratulations.
[0:58]Thank you!
[0:59]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:01]My pleasure.
[1:02]Okay.
[1:03]Self-explanatory a little bit, but talk about what your book is about, particularly all
[1:09]the intersections of these two families.
[1:11]At first, when I got the book, I thought it would be two different, you know, comparing
[1:16]contrast, but actually there's so many overlaps, which you read about a lot.
[1:20]So discuss.
[1:21]Yeah.
[1:22]Yeah.
[1:23]So it's a dual biography, so it chronicles kind of over the past 100 years or so,
[1:28]the times when these two families have interacted.
[1:31]So that's kind of the backbone of the book is these various meetings and intersections
[1:35]between the Kennedys and the British Royals.
[1:39]But I also use kind of those events as kind of a jumping off point to compare and contrast
[1:44]these two families to draw parallels and to kind of dig into the idea of what it means
[1:51]to be a dynasty and whether there is, you know, a difference in kind of what that looks
[1:57]like if you are in the UK or if you're in the United States.
[2:02]So interesting.
[2:03]So late in the book, you quote John M. Kennedy, Jr. who said, all history is gossip,
[2:10]something like that.
[2:11]Right.
[2:12]John M. Kennedy.
[2:13]Yes.
[2:14]John M. Kennedy.
[2:15]Yes.
[2:16]What did I say?
[2:17]Yes.
[2:18]The present.
[2:19]Let me say that again.
[2:20]Oh, my gosh.
[2:21]What is wrong with me today?
[2:22]I've made 20 mistakes.
[2:23]Okay.
[2:24]John, I'm going to just read the quote actually.
[2:25]Okay.
[2:26]Wait.
[2:27]Where is it now?
[2:28]Of course, I can't find it because it's just going to be one of this.
[2:29]Yes.
[2:30]I got it.
[2:31]Okay.
[2:32]She's 78.
[2:33]Okay.
[2:34]As you write in the book, all history is gossip.
[2:37]You say John M. Kennedy once said that or while he might have said it, it's an apt phrase
[2:42]for a man whose life and accomplishments have become equal parts, myth in fact, but
[2:46]it's difficult perhaps fittingly so to find the original source of the quote and then
[2:50]you go on to discuss much more about the president, but also how this whole book feels
[2:56]as if you're confiding in a friend about all of the things from Prince William and Prince
[3:03]Harry's media relations and Oprah to back down to the bones of each family and how they
[3:11]developed.
[3:12]Talk a little bit about that and the gossip and the myth versus fact.
[3:17]Yeah.
[3:18]I wanted to take a step back when I was writing this book, I wanted it to feel, you know,
[3:24]it's nonfiction.
[3:25]It's based in fact, I did a ton of research, which we can get into if that's interesting,
[3:30]but I wanted it to read like a compelling narrative because it is one.
[3:35]These families are, you know, I think the interest in these families comes from a lot
[3:41]of things kind of an interest in nostalgia and in history from kind of our modern day people
[3:48]wanting to kind of escape the trials of the president and dip into the past.
[3:51]But I also think they both come with really compelling stories of romance and ambition
[3:57]and success and really stark tragedy for both of them.
[4:02]So I wanted this story to read, you know, narratively, I my publisher and I have come
[4:08]for this term like beach bag biography.
[4:10]It's something that you can put in your, you know, in your beach bag and take and take
[4:15]with you on vacation and it's a compelling read, but it is entirely based in fact.
[4:20]So that was with me kind of the whole time when I was writing it and there is so much gossip
[4:25]and there is so much kind of juicy things that you can dig into, but I wanted people
[4:29]to walk away from my book knowing, okay, everything in this book happened.
[4:35]This is what really happened because I feel like people come to this to both of these
[4:39]families and these topics, you know, with a rich background of either, you know, oh
[4:46]gosh, that's all just tabloid gossip or give me, give me all the tabloid gossip.
[4:52]And so I wanted to find that middle ground of like this is, this is the middle and it is
[4:56]juicy, but this is all, we know this is true.
[5:00]You mentioned the tragedy and you outline tragedy after tragedy, which we all know, the
[5:05]Kennedy family and the curse of the Kennedy's and all of that, which just continues,
[5:10]you know, beyond with the loss of the Kennedy's daughter, which I guess must have happened
[5:15]after the book, you know, it was printed and because there were other, other losses
[5:19]mentioned towards the end.
[5:22]But what do you make of a family that has gone through so much still leads, but just has
[5:28]gone through just like what do you make when you go dig deeper into all of that?
[5:33]I think, I mean, I think it, you look at it and you think, okay, once again, them, like
[5:40]they still have to deal with us.
[5:41]Caroline Kennedy, you look at her as this figure who has gone through so much and you just,
[5:46]you just think, gosh, can't like can't she just get a break like this is, it's so tragic.
[5:51]So many things have happened in her life, which are upsetting.
[5:54]What I take, I take two things away from it.
[5:57]One is that on both the Kennedy's and the British royals and this was something I wanted
[6:03]people to take away from my book is, yes, they're people with enormous privilege.
[6:07]They're also just people and people have to deal with upsetting things and the Kennedy's
[6:13]have had more than their fair share.
[6:16]But these are not, you know, just because they have wealth and power and all these things.
[6:22]They can't escape from things like cancer, which I think is really, you know, it's something
[6:27]to keep in mind.
[6:28]I also think what one of the first things I thought about in comparing these two families
[6:35]was how they have to grieve in public and how kind of unfathomable that is as a responsibility
[6:43]that is kind of thrust upon them.
[6:46]And I can't, I can't imagine what that is like.
[6:49]And I know, you know, when I spoke with some of John F. Kennedy Jr's friends, that was really
[6:57]a challenge for him, not when he was three years old, kind of saluting his father's
[7:02]casket.
[7:03]He did not, of course, that would have been difficult for him.
[7:06]He didn't remember it.
[7:07]But having to grieve his mother publicly, he didn't want to, but he knew that he had to.
[7:16]And that is something I thought about again, you know, when Queen Elizabeth died and you
[7:21]saw her whole family having to grieve in public, obviously, you know, we have the kind
[7:27]of essential to history images of Prince's William and Harry walking behind, walking
[7:33]in their mother's kind of funeral parade.
[7:36]And I just think that is, it's that piece of the parasocial that, you know, that is expected
[7:43]of them.
[7:44]I, you know, I think is an interesting parallel.
[7:47]And I don't know.
[7:48]I've wrestled with it a lot thinking about that.
[7:51]He had some really interesting parts about their mom, Princess Diana and her eating disorders
[7:56]and how she revealed all of that, talk a little bit more about her.
[8:01]I'm like absolutely fascinated like most people with Princess Diana and all of that.
[8:05]And I, I found your depiction of her and the media and how she navigated that and her
[8:12]command of the, of the photograph and all of that really interesting.
[8:16]Yeah.
[8:17]I think, I think you can draw kind of, I think Princess Diana is one of the most interesting
[8:23]kind of public figures of, you know, certainly the last 50 years.
[8:27]I think that she represents how difficult it is to join the royal family, but also she
[8:37]was someone who, you know, was, was absolutely like able to not manipulate the media,
[8:46]kind of work with them in a way.
[8:49]She was pursued a hundred percent.
[8:51]She had a very difficult time with paparazzi that is undeniable.
[8:56]But at the same time, she was able to harness the spotlight on her and the celebrity
[9:00]on her in a way that is so impressive and she was so intelligent in that way.
[9:07]And I find it really interesting, you know, to think about kind of her, a lot of people
[9:12]draw parallels between her and Carolyn, and I think that's absolutely apt.
[9:16]I think they both were pursued by the media.
[9:20]They were both kind of had difficult times marrying into these two families that are also
[9:26]institutions.
[9:28]They were married to people who had a lot of expectations about their spouses.
[9:34]But I think the difference is that Princess Diana, you know, was able to harness some
[9:40]of that spotlight and Carolyn just like could never get there.
[9:44]She struggled so intensely with the media attention and to the end of her life.
[9:52]And you know, I think that that is a difference there.
[9:54]But yeah, Princess Diana is endlessly fascinating.
[9:59]So tell me more.
[10:00]about what surprised you.
[10:01]And do touch on the research, you alluded to it.
[10:03]And tell me how you did all your research.
[10:05]And when you were uncovering all the meetings
[10:08]and everything, what you found that you were really
[10:11]delighted to discover.
[10:13]Absolutely.
[10:13]So this is not saying much.
[10:17]But a lot has been written about both of these families.
[10:20]There's a lot that's out there.
[10:22]First hand accounts, deeply researched biographies,
[10:26]academic texts.
[10:27]There's a lot out there.
[10:28]So I was like, OK, if I'm going to come into this field,
[10:32]into this genre, I have to offer something new.
[10:35]And so I knew I want to do quite a bit of research.
[10:39]I did a lot of interviews in particular
[10:41]with people from that 90s era, which is interesting.
[10:45]I think because, because both Princess Diana and John
[10:49]and Carolyn have both passed away,
[10:51]I think people felt a little bit freer
[10:53]to talk about them.
[10:55]And they wanted, they want the real story to be out there.
[11:00]And for their legacies to be protected,
[11:03]but also for there to be a truth about them.
[11:04]So I spoke with a number of sources throughout the book.
[11:08]But I also, I did research at the Royal Archives
[11:11]at Windsor, which was fantastic for several chapters
[11:15]early on in the book.
[11:17]And I researched at the John F. Kennedy Library.
[11:20]But what is interesting is I found some really great material
[11:25]at the Q archives, which are just outside of London.
[11:28]And that was really helpful because in particular,
[11:33]the chapters about JFK and Jackie's
[11:37]kind of visit to Buckingham Palace in 1961
[11:40]and also President Kennedy's funeral,
[11:42]I wanted to have the perspective from the UK on that
[11:46]and from the UK government and from the Royal Family
[11:48]and things like that on those particular meetings,
[11:51]because President Kennedy's death has been covered,
[11:55]fictionalized nonfiction texts, documentaries,
[11:59]all it's been covered so deeply.
[12:01]But so I wanted to come at it from the perspective
[12:04]of kind of the UK delegation that was sent over,
[12:07]which included Prince Philip.
[12:08]But in terms of what surprised me, what was interesting,
[12:11]I did not know very much about President Kennedy's sister,
[12:15]kick.
[12:16]And she, I think, is someone that there
[12:18]are a number of biographies on kick.
[12:20]And I would recommend people dig into those
[12:23]because she is worth her own book.
[12:25]And she's just a portion of a chapter in mind.
[12:27]But she, when President Kennedy's father
[12:31]was the ambassador to the UK prior to World War II,
[12:34]he brought his family over and kick just delighted
[12:37]the British aristocracy.
[12:40]And eventually she went on to marry one of the members
[12:44]of the British aristocracy.
[12:45]And she had a very tragic story and passed away quite young.
[12:50]And I just found her, I just found her kind of tragic love
[12:54]story incredibly compelling.
[12:57]The way you depicted the whole family
[12:59]from migrating over to the UK with so many kids.
[13:04]I mean, you mentioned in your engagements
[13:06]that you just had a baby.
[13:07]And I have worked in the idea of like,
[13:09]schlepping them all overseas into such an esteemed position
[13:13]and trying to wrangle them all.
[13:15]Oh my gosh.
[13:16]So I loved hearing about how they managed that.
[13:19]Oh my gosh.
[13:20]Why moved to writing a book at all?
[13:24]You're, tell us more about your trajectory,
[13:27]town and country and all of the things
[13:29]that you've done to get here and why this book now.
[13:32]Yeah, so I have worked at Town and Country for a decade,
[13:35]almost exactly a decade.
[13:37]And I am the digital director, which is something
[13:40]I signed hard to say.
[13:41]But so I am the kind of lead for digital for the website.
[13:46]And I kind of helped to run editorial over there.
[13:49]But I came up as a news writer at the publication
[13:52]and have held a number of positions there.
[13:55]And prior to that, I worked at a number of different publications.
[13:59]I worked at Travel and Leisure.
[14:00]I worked at Daily Candy, which some people have never really
[14:03]candy.
[14:04]Yes.
[14:05]So yes, so I've had a long career in digital journalism.
[14:08]But I have always wanted to write a book.
[14:10]That is what I dreamed about as a young child.
[14:14]And when I had ideas about this,
[14:19]the idea from this book really came when Prince William
[14:24]was coming over to the US for his Earthshot Prize,
[14:28]which he was inspired by President Kennedy
[14:31]to launch this kind of global environmental initiative.
[14:34]And he named it after the Earthshot.
[14:36]And when he was bringing it to Boston for its second iteration
[14:41]of the prize, he was really leaning
[14:43]on the Kennedy name.
[14:44]And I thought that's so interesting,
[14:46]like you always hear about.
[14:47]The Kennedys are America's version of royalty.
[14:51]And here's the British version of royalty
[14:53]kind of leaning on the Kennedy name.
[14:55]And I thought that was so interesting.
[14:56]And I started thinking about the parallels.
[14:59]And then I kind of just went started going down a rabbit hole.
[15:02]And I was like, gosh, this would be a great book.
[15:05]I would love to read that book.
[15:06]And then I was looking, and I was looking,
[15:08]and there are a few things, making comparisons,
[15:10]or it's the piece of some stories and things
[15:13]like that, but it wasn't out there.
[15:15]And I was like, well, maybe this is my first book.
[15:20]Like maybe this is what I go after.
[15:22]And I just couldn't get the idea out of my head.
[15:25]And so that was really kind of the origin story of it.
[15:28]Gosh, I love it.
[15:29]As you've been talking, I'm flashing back
[15:32]to the beginning of our conversation
[15:33]with this notion of beach bag biographies.
[15:35]And I'm thinking I need to make a shelf
[15:37]at my bookstore about beach bag biographies.
[15:39]Like what would you put on the shelf?
[15:43]Well, okay, Craig Brown, everyone asked me
[15:47]who my what royal biographies I really like.
[15:50]And I love Craig Brown's books.
[15:51]So he has written two books.
[15:53]He wrote one about Princess Margaret.
[15:54]It's like a really gorgeous purple cover
[15:56]with her on the cut front.
[15:57]And I think it's 99 glimpses of Princess Margaret.
[16:01]The number is what I'm hesitating on.
[16:03]It's a really cinematic read.
[16:05]Like I love things that like take you into a scene
[16:07]and you can just like see it.
[16:09]And that is really, that is one of my absolute favorite
[16:12]royal biographies.
[16:14]And then you also wrote one about the queen
[16:15]that came out maybe two years ago.
[16:18]So those absolutely deserve a place on the shelf.
[16:21]White House by the sea.
[16:23]I don't know if you're familiar with that one.
[16:24]It came out a few years ago.
[16:25]It's written by Kate's story.
[16:27]And it is, it is like very true
[16:30]to the name beach bag biographies.
[16:32]So it's all about the Kennedys at Hyena's port.
[16:35]Oh, I think it stays contained
[16:37]to kind of their story on Cape Cod
[16:39]and what that place means for the family
[16:41]and all of the things, the kind of key historical events
[16:46]that happened there, but it's very narrative
[16:48]and it's very good.
[16:49]So those are just a couple that I would recommend
[16:51]from my kind of topics that I'm well versed in.
[16:56]Well, if you want to help curate the shelf,
[16:59]I want to launch that.
[17:00]So we can put a little thing on it.
[17:03]Now, I'm trying to think Julie sat,
[17:04]in the house book.
[17:05]I'm not sure if you're familiar with her story.
[17:07]Yeah, absolutely.
[17:08]Her most recent book about the department stores.
[17:11]Of course, exactly.
[17:12]That would be another one that I feel like is just,
[17:14]you want something that doesn't feel like, you know,
[17:18]high school summer reading,
[17:19]but feels a really inventive story.
[17:22]Yeah.
[17:23]Like anything by James Stewart and Michael Lewis.
[17:25]Yeah.
[17:26]You know, maybe Ben Mezreck and, you know,
[17:28]people who make history cinematic.
[17:30]Mm-hmm.
[17:31]Okay, I'm gonna think about that.
[17:33]Exactly.
[17:35]I'm good.
[17:36]Are you planning on digging into any other families,
[17:39]any other books?
[17:40]What is, what has this, what did your appetite
[17:42]or just inspired you to write more books?
[17:45]What do you think?
[17:46]Yes.
[17:47]I mean, I would love to write more books.
[17:48]Exactly what that looks like.
[17:50]I'm not exactly sure.
[17:51]I think you mentioned my,
[17:53]what I wrote in my acknowledgements.
[17:55]I signed on to write this book when I was,
[17:57]when I was pregnant with my first child
[17:59]and I have had a full time job the whole time.
[18:02]So having, so writing a book and raising a toddler
[18:06]and, you know, working full time at Town and Country
[18:09]has been a lot, I would say.
[18:11]So I'm taking a little bit of a break,
[18:13]but absolutely I would love to write more.
[18:15]I am particularly, you know,
[18:18]in writing this book, one of the pieces of it
[18:21]that I couldn't kind of stop thinking about
[18:24]was the Kennedys and popular culture.
[18:26]And I at least want to kind of noodle around
[18:28]in that idea, especially after kind of love story,
[18:32]which was the recent kind of FX program on JFK Jr.
[18:36]in Carolyn, you know, why do we continue to be kind of
[18:40]interested in portraying this family on screen?
[18:43]I think is an interesting idea,
[18:45]but for now it's just an idea.
[18:47]I kind of love the idea of you doing a series,
[18:50]not that you asked, but I'm just gonna offer
[18:52]of the intersections of other families,
[18:54]like who else in history is at the Vanderbilt.
[18:56]Or the, you know, the Rothschild or like,
[18:59]who are the Roosevelt's or like families
[19:03]that are interesting that have multiple generations.
[19:07]I don't know.
[19:08]The bushes, yeah.
[19:09]Yeah, the bushes.
[19:10]Yeah, we could get more up to date.
[19:13]I think that I think that right now there is to me,
[19:17]and you know, this is a big part of working
[19:19]at Town and Country and just, you know,
[19:21]what my media diet looks like,
[19:23]but looking at who has privilege and power
[19:27]and why and kind of what that means
[19:29]and what they do with it,
[19:31]I think is one of the most important questions
[19:34]of modern life, frankly.
[19:36]And yeah, absolutely thinking of it,
[19:39]thinking, but also thinking about people
[19:41]who have had power and lost it and what that looks like.
[19:43]And you know, what does it mean?
[19:45]You know, for someone who is a regular person
[19:48]who looks back on their family's history
[19:50]and thinks like, oh wow, that my,
[19:53]I think there's something very interesting
[19:55]about the Kennedys in that they have been able
[19:57]to kind of retain residents.
[20:00]over history, but, you know, do you know who kind of the descendants of John Adams are?
[20:05]No, you know, I'm sure they're interesting and I hope they listen to this and reach out and
[20:11]say we are doing these interesting things. But America has a tendency to kind of, you know,
[20:17]overturn, which goes back to our history. And I think that's, I think that's interesting too.
[20:22]So interesting.
[20:24]Gosh, I love when a book just started wondering so much about more topics, right?
[20:29]Like, yeah, I agree up and write those other books.
[20:31]I know, I know.
[20:33]Of course.
[20:36]And then I guess just last, I'm interested in your town and country as a digital editor there.
[20:41]Like, as the media landscape shifts so much and AI and blah, blah, blah, and everything
[20:46]is changing. Like, how are you making sense of that and how do you create content that stands out?
[20:52]I think you have to. I think that's the thing that's interesting.
[20:55]What I like, which I, it sounds like a basic answer, but let me dig into it.
[20:59]So what I love working about town and country is that we are a publication with a very
[21:06]honed voice and point of view. And, you know, there are stories that are town and country
[21:12]stories and there are stories that are not town and country stories. And that's okay. And I think
[21:16]as we, as we kind of move forward in this new world of AI, having a brand voice, a brand point
[21:24]of view, whether that's, you know, our publication, which is celebrating 180 years this year,
[21:30]which is wild, or you're a new substacker, you have to be saying something that is unique to you
[21:36]and different. And, you know, you have to have original thoughts and reporting. You have to have
[21:44]reasons why you're recommending something and why someone should take your recommendations
[21:48]over an aggregate in AI. Because I think that, you know, the more people use it, I'm not well
[21:57]versed in it. I should learn more. But my understanding is that it's kind of, it's picking and
[22:03]choosing for you. And I think having a brand perspective on, or an internal perspective on what
[22:10]you're recommending and being really confident in that is so, it's only going to become more
[22:15]important. So, you know, that's what we're trying to do at TNC. We're trying to, you know, do original
[22:21]reporting on stories that people, you know, might not know about. We're trying to really, you know,
[22:27]come with recommendations that make sense for us in terms of products or books or television shows
[22:34]so that people know when they take our recommendations, they're good ones.
[22:40]Love it. Well, I am a big Italian country fan. It's one of my favorite.
[22:46]Adam has been nice to me over the years. Oh, he's my ex and everything. So that's really nice.
[22:51]Yeah. All right. Well, Caroline, thank you so much. What a joy my mother has been trying to wrestle
[22:58]this copy from my hand. So now I can finally give it to her. So I have to read it. So anyway,
[23:02]see you. Congratulations. Very exciting. So much. Thank you so, so much. I appreciate it. Okay.
[23:08]Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time
[23:13]to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at
[23:19]Zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and bye the books.