Jacqueline Friedland, BREATHING UNDER WATER: A Novel
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:25]Jekyll in Freeland is the author of Breathing Underwater. She is back on the podcast to talk
[0:33]about her new book. Last time, she spoke about counting backwards, which was her fifth novel.
[0:39]Now, we're onto her sixth. Jackie is prolific. She also is a contributor to on being
[0:45]Jewish now, which at the time of this recording has been on the USA Today list for 29 weeks.
[0:51]Jackie is a USA Today and Amazon best-selling author of both historical and contemporary
[0:57]women's fiction. She went to University of Pennsylvania NYU Law School and was a commercial
[1:02]litigator for a quote as long as she could stand it. She got an MFA and created writing from
[1:08]Sarah Lawrence College and has been writing ever since. Jackie lives in Westchester with her
[1:14]husband, four children and two dogs. And by the way, Jackie and I have become friends.
[1:19]I really adore her and she was nice enough to include me in her acknowledgements of this book,
[1:25]which was lovely, but really breathing underwater, which she'll tell you about is not just
[1:32]about one autistic child or a school system or these amazing characters that she depicts,
[1:39]but it's about really understanding each other and how we learn and the quick assumptions
[1:45]we sometimes make and what that says about us. So give this book a try.
[1:52]Welcome, Jackie. Thanks so much for coming back on totally back to talk about breathing underwater.
[1:57]Your latest novel. Congratulations.
[1:59]Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
[2:01]Yeah. Thank you, by the way, for my lovely acknowledgement note in the back.
[2:05]That was very sweet of you. Well, it is well earned.
[2:08]I mean, between everything you do for the book community and all the authors your friends with and
[2:13]everything, it's fabulous. You too. You're like, you know, misconnector.
[2:18]Okay, breathing underwater. Tell listeners what it's about.
[2:21]Okay, so the very short version of what it's about is a it's about a college athlete,
[2:27]a swimmer who gets framed for something she didn't do.
[2:31]A teenager with autism who believes he's the one person who can clear her name.
[2:37]And this boy's mother who's sort of caught in between and trying to learn to let her son gain independence and be his own person.
[2:46]Amazing.
[2:47]There are so many relatable themes in every single one of the storylines.
[2:51]I feel like one of my favorite scenes was when the mom was poking through Leo's drawers and found the whistle like McKenna's whistle.
[2:59]And of course, like as a mom, you're really not supposed to be going through your kid's stuff.
[3:04]And then her husband's like, wait, you're worried about sending Leo to college on his own.
[3:08]And yet you're the one like pong through all the stuff still.
[3:11]I actually really struggled with writing that scene because I wanted her to go in and look through his things.
[3:16]And she has this moment of, you know, yes, he's supposed to have his right to privacy, but his safety is my primary concern and you can come at me.
[3:24]But I'm doing it anyway.
[3:25]Yeah, I just love that.
[3:27]So relatable. I don't know.
[3:29]I mean, not to say I'm always going through my kid's stuff.
[3:31]But you know, it just is temptation if only we could read their texts, right? Oh my God.
[3:36]I don't even I wouldn't even want to go.
[3:39]I can't even go down that spiral.
[3:41]No, thank you.
[3:42]Backing up for a second, you include a note about your mom and her advocacy with autistic children and special needs kids back that back in the day.
[3:51]And you accompanied her to all of her visits and so much else.
[3:54]Tell us more about your mom and what she did.
[3:57]So my mom, who is now retired is awesome.
[4:02]And she entered the field of autism like back in the 1970s and she used to tell me stories about how people would say like autistic.
[4:10]What is that?
[4:11]Like it was just was not a known quantity the way it is today.
[4:14]And she really did every part of the process from she started out at a camp called Camp Hope when she was a teenager.
[4:21]Just as a summer job and she just fell in love with these kids and she decided this was what she wanted to do with her life.
[4:26]And so she went everywhere from like being a camp, a camp counselor to a classroom teacher to then becoming a college professor to teach other kids how to teach kids with autism.
[4:36]And she then became ahead of school and she just I mean the list goes on and on, but she wrote textbooks.
[4:42]And she would every night at dinner, you know, we were talking about what she saw at work and her ideas and she over the years she created the first if not the first one of the first college support programs for kids with autism.
[4:57]And they're now, you know, 100 over like multiple hundreds of them across the country.
[5:02]And I used to go with her and I like got to know a lot of the kids that she worked with and so people have asked me.
[5:09]Is there somebody in your life who has autism that was inspired by and I feel like no, there's not one person there's so many people and it's just it just became such a fact of my life that it was sort of like second nature to incorporate a character with autism into the book.
[5:25]So interesting. Wow, because you have that level of true understanding and authenticity and I was like, I don't think any of her children are just saying so where did this come from and then I understood so that's amazing.
[5:36]Talk about the the pool, the safety, the swim lessons, I feel like I am like drenched in chlorine after this after this book.
[5:46]The whole book actually started because I just I'm not a person who likes statistics or cares about them, but I happen to hear two different statistics within a very short span of time that just got my mind kind of going crazy.
[5:59]The first was that I learned that over 40% of Americans do not know how to swim.
[6:05]And I knew that you know I know everybody doesn't know how to swim, but I just didn't realize it was such a big number and especially I was on a swim team in high school, I was a terrible swimmer but somehow they let me on the team.
[6:16]And it just it was never it was never something I ever experienced to have to not know how to navigate the water and so it just was like sitting with me how terrible this is and also then I started learning.
[6:29]A lot in a lot of big cities, they don't have enough lifeguards at the public pool so there's no opportunity for kids to learn and like the it's sort of like one tragedy after another because then the kids when they do get around a pool, a lot of kids drown it's like the number one cause of death for young children.
[6:45]So this is sitting with me and then just like a day or two later I was in my car with the radio on and heard the statistic that 8% of American college students experience homelessness at some point during their time in school.
[7:00]That can't be possible so I went on you know the internet and research everything and it is it's the truth it's real.
[7:07]And I just was like thinking about it thinking about like the privileges you have and like it's swimming being a privilege and and also these like misconceptions how like you you just don't know people struggles and so.
[7:19]You know you think one person has everything going for them when they're actually like drowning in plain sight and then you underestimate others based on faulty assumptions and that was like instantly these characters of McKenna and Leo came into my mind where McKenna is a college athlete who you know it looks like she's like on top of the world but she's actually got all these obligations and way more than she can handle on her plate.
[7:43]And you have Leo who has autism and so people just don't expect him to be able to do certain things and they don't push him to try and in fact he's so much more capable than you know the people in his life ever imagine.
[7:56]So that was how it all came about.
[7:59]And then on top of all that you have a dementia element with gold and how that is all playing out talk about that.
[8:07]So McKenna is her she was raised by a single mom who had cancer and passed away when she was in high school and because of that McKenna is really motivated to become a nurse and this is her like live stream because of the way the nurses treated her mom and also treated McKenna when she was like a little girl watching her mom struggle.
[8:25]And then so she she's raised by her moves in with her grandmother when she's in high school and it's like she only has this one person and then her grandmother sort of start to slow decline into dementia and McKenna is in denial and won't admit this to herself even though she's a nursing student and clearly knows what's happening but it's like she can't she doesn't have anybody.
[8:47]And so now she's this one last person who's sort of her supposed to be her caretaker McKenna becomes the caretaker.
[8:55]And I find the like the way that caregiving works and how roles shift and you know I find that so interesting how first you're the child and then later you end up caring for your parent and you know and your children at the same time all of that.
[9:09]That was all kind of percolating in my head as I was writing this story of again just one more challenge for this college athlete to you know she's supposed to be at her swim practices and she's like dealing with trying to find assisted living for her grandmother so.
[9:22]And it just kind of all came together that way.
[9:25]Isn't it amazing how so many different threads that were like running through your head somehow become like a narrative that totally makes sense and just like a story that works and yet it comes from.
[9:37]like different so many parts right well you know it's like real life though it's you know like it's the same thing like you know maybe you have a book launch at the same time that like some kid or adult in your house has some other need that pops up and you know I just I really wanted to write like a very human story with this book so many of my other books are these like big social justice issues and I just wanted like.
[10:00]just people getting through life and like finding ways to uplift themselves and those around them.
[10:06]And I just, you know, life happens. You know, I had grandparents who struggled with dementia.
[10:11]I've seen it firsthand. I know it's like such a horrible way to lose people. And so it just,
[10:16]I don't know that just made its way into the book.
[10:19]I think there's also a lot about these false assumptions that we make. Quick judgments,
[10:25]jumping to conclusions that are so detrimental. And we do that as a society a lot. We do that
[10:30]individually. Like these, these things lead me to this. And so I don't have time to dive deep.
[10:36]Like let's just go with this. And then, I mean, I'm being very big. But you know, like it's to everyone's
[10:43]detriment that we do this. Yeah, I can, I can clearly agree. And I also think that like we don't,
[10:49]we don't look enough to the people around us to say like, what do you have to bring to the table?
[10:54]Like we just assume you are a swimmer and an athlete, for example. And therefore should do X,
[10:59]Y and Z when in fact, what you have to offer might actually be your caretaking abilities for,
[11:04]you know, and things like that. And I think we need to look just deeper into the people around us.
[11:09]Yeah. And even just this notion of underestimation, like people under estimating Leo and like,
[11:15]what can he really do? Like don't count people out? Well, and actually when I was researching
[11:21]the swimming aspect of this and kids with autism and swimming, etc. The drowning rate for kids
[11:28]with autism is 160% of what it is for like the general pediatric population. And there are a lot
[11:36]of challenges because a lot of kids with autism have sensory issues and struggle with transitions.
[11:40]And so like the challenges of teaching a young child to swim when they're neurotypical are,
[11:46]you know, ever present. So it just makes everything harder. But at the same rate, it's a really
[11:50]important life skill. And if you want people to be safe in all of their environments, you know,
[11:57]you have to teach them. Because the other thing also is that I'm, as I said, not a statistic person,
[12:01]so I'm forgetting the exact number, but there is a much higher percentage of kids with autism who
[12:07]wander away from safe spaces and get into dangerous places like near a pool when they don't know
[12:13]how to swim. So the whole thing, it's just everything builds on each other. Wow. So this couldn't
[12:18]have taken you that long to write. I feel like we just spoke about your last book. Like, how did
[12:23]you whip this out so quickly? So this was the first book I've ever written under deadline. And I had
[12:30]a deadline. And I am, you know, the, the, I am a rule follower and I was going to make that deadline.
[12:36]But I, the whole time I was doing it, I kept saying never again, I will never do another book
[12:40]under deadline. But I'm now working on a new project. And I sort of miss having a deadline because I'm
[12:45]like, well, I can get it done. Whatever. You know, so you can't win. Oh my gosh. Wait, what's your new
[12:51]project? Oh my goodness. Um, it's a hot mess right now. Okay. Okay. The basic premise is it,
[12:57]it's about an old woman who gets scammed and wants revenge on the hackers.
[13:04]Hmm. Very cool. Very cool. Okay. So you've written six novels. Like, what have you learned
[13:10]about yourself from all of this writing? What have I learned about myself? Man, I've learned that
[13:16]I really love doing research. Um, I've learned that I have really uncomfortable with the messy
[13:23]middle. Like when you are putting that first draft onto a page and it's like, you know, it's a
[13:29]disaster, but it's supposed to be because it's the first draft. And you know, it takes a minute
[13:33]to get it. I really struggle with that. Like, I am apparently more of a perfectionist. And I
[13:37]just wanted to be great from the get go. And I've also learned that I really enjoy inhabiting like
[13:43]other consciousnesses of, you know, like stepping into the shoes of a mom who's a vice principal
[13:51]or an athlete in college. Like, I really love learning about these different lives and
[13:56]being those people for a minute. But I am not a person who misses my characters once the book is
[14:01]done. Once it's done, it's like, see it, like it's like I've released them into the world. And
[14:05]they are ready. And they don't need me anymore. So I can let them go. Okay. Well, I'm still thinking
[14:10]about some of your characters from counting backwards. But that's okay. I'll try to. I love them forever.
[14:18]I just, I don't know. Yeah. You know, what types of books are you reading these days? So I've
[14:24]done a little bit of a romance binge lately. I've been saying, I feel a little bit when I'm
[14:30]working on a new book for me. If I read too much women's fiction, I start to worry that I'm
[14:35]like letting other people's work bleed into my work. And I never want to say like, where did I get
[14:39]that idea from somebody else's book out? I read, I want to make sure it's coming from me. So I
[14:44]try to go outside my genre. And I actually, but and I also just really enjoy romance levels. I
[14:50]have a whole TED talk about how people call it like low art. But it's really, I think, you know,
[14:55]there's romance is the highest selling genre for a reason. And it's, um, you know, there's
[15:01]certain books that like, if you can rope people in right from the beginning and make people feel
[15:07]happy, that is high art as far as I am concerned. That is there is skill and craft required in that.
[15:12]And I will like never never stomach hearing someone say that that's not true.
[15:17]Wait, did you actually do a TED talk? Are you just? No, no, it's my own personal TED talk.
[15:24]Okay, I was like, how did I miss that? No, not a real TED talk. Sorry. I was just like, that's so
[15:29]cool. Like, look how cute it says. That's amazing. Sorry. So you said you were about to say,
[15:35]you do read, you're reading something else too. I do read thrillers. And as much as I say that,
[15:40]like I try to stay away from the women's fiction, there are certain books where like when everybody's
[15:44]talking about a book or I hear the plot, like, I've got, I've got to get, get my hands on it.
[15:49]Yeah. But I did just read a really wonderful Orthodox Jewish romance that steamy.
[15:56]And I know the whole thing is confusing. It's called Soon by You by Dalia Adler.
[16:01]Okay. And I've really never read anything quite like it.
[16:05]So which, and especially in the romance genre where there's like, there is a formula and it's,
[16:11]you know, to read something that sort of is different is nice too. So we'll plug for that book.
[16:16]Love that. Amazing. Okay. So tell me something that totally surprised you when researching this book.
[16:24]I know you started with a bunch of statistics. And that's great. But there, what else along the way
[16:30]where you like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe this. You know, this is the first book that I've written
[16:37]where I actually was not surprised by anything. It was like the surprise came before I wrote
[16:44]the book that I couldn't believe that people could be in college and have nowhere to live.
[16:50]Or that, you know, or that, in fact, while I was working on the book, there was Kathy Hockel,
[16:57]who for anyone who doesn't know is Governor of New York, started a program to get more lifeguards
[17:02]to the New York City pools. And there I was seeing comments on Twitter of people,
[17:08]people being really angry, of seeing like, you know, this is, there's all these other issues going
[17:12]on in New York and in the city. And like, this is what why are we focusing on swimming? It's
[17:17]January. You know, like, there was like a lot of anger about it. And I was thinking, no, it's so
[17:21]important. Like, they don't, it's this, you know, she's going to save all of these lives. And it's just
[17:26]people not seeing it that way. So I guess that was surprising to me. No, I love that. I didn't know
[17:32]that about Governor Hill. I did not know. That's amazing. All right. What advice would you give to
[17:37]aspiring authors? Always the same advice, which is that you have to just sit down and write.
[17:42]I think that people wait until their ideas perfect until their outline is perfect, until they
[17:48]are sure that there is going to be a pathway to success for whatever it is that they're writing.
[17:53]But I think the shortest pathway to success is actually creating a product that you are proud of.
[17:59]And that's not going to happen unless you have the hours where your butts in the chair
[18:03]and you're at the computer and you are just writing. And I would also take a page out of my book,
[18:08]no pun intended, and say it'd be comfortable with the mess that it will be at the beginning
[18:13]because with every round of editing, it just gets better. And then at some point, you will
[18:18]look at your work and say, oh, my goodness, did I write this? This is great. You know,
[18:23]where is your favorite place to swim? Oh, that's a great question. You know, I dream of all these
[18:28]exotic vacations, but I suppose my favorite place to swim would always be, I mean, I'm not a fan
[18:36]of swimming in the ocean all I can do. I think it's the writer's brain. I can imagine every
[18:40]worst case scenario of what is swimming around beside me. So definitely pool over ocean.
[18:46]Okay. And I think, you know, anytime I go on a vacation, the hotel pool is my favorite place to
[18:52]swim while I'm there. Amazing. And last question. Like, what chapter do you feel like you're in
[18:59]right now in your life in my life? I am just about coming to grips with the fact that I'm not
[19:07]young. That's the chapter that I'm in. You know, like, I'm not like, I am solidly middle-aged,
[19:13]I guess, you know? And I think like, I'm not quite sandwich generation yet because thank God,
[19:19]like my parents are healthy and they don't, they're still very much do not need me to do a thing
[19:23]for them. But I see it coming. And my kids are starting to no longer need me, which is like the
[19:31]worst thing ever. Somebody asked me recently what I think is the hardest thing about parenting. And
[19:36]my answer was letting go. And so I'm in this strange place of letting go and bringing back in.
[19:45]And if that's not middle-aged, I don't know what is. But I also, in my head, still feel like I'm
[19:51]25. So I'm trying to reconcile all of these different feelings. I am in that with you. What chapter is
[19:59]that?
[20:00]I don't know for a long. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. The reckoning. I don't know. Jackie, thank you so much
[20:09]breathing underwater. Congratulations. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's okay. Take care.
[20:14]You too. Okay. All right, see you soon. Thank you for listening to totally booked with
[20:19]Zibi, formerly momstone have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[20:25]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much.
[20:31]Oh, and bye the books.