Sara Goodman Confino on Women in Journalism and The Power of a Strong Mentor
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and that the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy!
[0:27]Sarah Goodman-Kunfino is back on the podcast
[0:30]to talk about her latest novel Off the Record.
[0:33]Sarah is the best-selling author of seven novels,
[0:36]also including Don't Forget to Write,
[0:38]Good Grief, Behind Every Good Man.
[0:40]She's up to no good for the love of friends,
[0:43]and it's a sure thing.
[0:45]After spending more years than she's willing
[0:46]to publicly admit teaching high school English and journalism,
[0:50]she is currently writing full-time
[0:51]and trying to make a living off of the crazy stories in her head.
[0:54]She lives in Montgomery County, Maryland,
[0:56]with her husband, two sons, and two miniature snazors.
[0:59]When she's not writing or frantically parenting,
[1:02]she can be found on the Peloton at the beach
[1:04]or at a Bruce Springsteen concert sometimes,
[1:07]even dancing on stage.
[1:09]Welcome, Sarah.
[1:10]Congratulations off the record.
[1:12]Just came out this week as we're recording this.
[1:14]Congrats, so excited for you.
[1:16]Thank you so much.
[1:17]Thank you for having me on today.
[1:18]Of course.
[1:19]Can I just say that you're a voice speaking,
[1:23]writing from acknowledgements to the characters
[1:27]like you have such a distinctive, awesome voice
[1:31]that I feel like you could pick up,
[1:33]like you could identify it anywhere.
[1:35]It's awesome.
[1:37]So thank you for that.
[1:38]This conversational, funny, warm, biting wit.
[1:42]I just, it's very awesome.
[1:44]It's kind of very me.
[1:46]So thank you.
[1:47]Oh, great compliment.
[1:48]Very you.
[1:48]Okay, tell everybody what off the record is about.
[1:51]So off the record is that in 1962
[1:54]and it's about Judy Greenberg, a 22-year-old college
[1:56]graduate from the University of Maryland School
[1:59]of Journalism, where I went.
[2:00]And she is going to be a reporter.
[2:02]And she is destined to be the next big thing,
[2:04]but nobody will hire her because she's a woman.
[2:07]So she takes the job in a newspaper typing pool
[2:09]as a stepping stone, answers a phone call for an editor
[2:12]and takes a message that's kind of cryptic and in Russian accent.
[2:16]And her editor says it's nothing in to drop it
[2:18]and kind of demotes her back to the typing pool.
[2:20]She decides to follow this lead with the help
[2:22]of a young male reporter, spoiler, love interest.
[2:25]And together they uncover a Cuban spy plot.
[2:28]It is so much fun.
[2:29]I told my editor when I finished it
[2:30]to just basically check every category box for this one
[2:33]because it's half Jewish rom-com and half Cold War spy thriller.
[2:38]Of course, on the shelf of the melding of those two,
[2:41]this will have a permanent, a permanent home.
[2:44]Oh my gosh, I love how Judy is like, listen,
[2:47]I have like a 4.0 GPA and I like majored in all these things
[2:51]that I am like and be the best reporter ever.
[2:54]And they're like, yeah, no, do you want this job
[2:55]or not or it's gone in two seconds?
[2:57]And she's like, okay, fine.
[2:59]Well, she wants a foot in the door.
[3:01]And the reality is there weren't a lot of journalism jobs
[3:05]for women back then, unless you wanted to write in a women's
[3:08]section, which was really covering things like how
[3:10]to get a stain out of your husband's collar
[3:12]and how often should I flip my mattress and things like that
[3:16]instead of the hard hitting journalism that she wanted to do.
[3:18]It was starting to shift, but the shift hadn't fully happened
[3:21]yet, amazing.
[3:23]And of course, her parents just want to marry her off
[3:26]to the next nice Jewish boy.
[3:27]And there's a canter set up, which is quite funny.
[3:31]And she's having none of it.
[3:32]Talk a little bit about the pressures on women to marry
[3:36]and maybe the unique pressures from Jewish families.
[3:39]Maybe, talk a little bit about all of that.
[3:42]So obviously it is a little bit better today,
[3:45]but I'm not going to say a lot because my mother actually
[3:47]sent me and my husband up on a blind date.
[3:49]So, you know, she's a Yantas.
[3:51]She set up six couples who've gotten married, including us.
[3:55]There's that thing you get in heaven automatically
[3:56]if you make three matches.
[3:57]She's like, I get to bring a date.
[4:01]You know, that Yantas matchmaking thing really is still there.
[4:04]It didn't happen for me until I was older than Judy,
[4:06]but that pressure is still there.
[4:09]And back then, in particular, women really
[4:11]weren't in the workforce in full force.
[4:14]And so this idea of their job was to get married
[4:17]and be homemakers and have babies.
[4:19]And Judy's sister is a prime example of that.
[4:21]She's pregnant with baby number three.
[4:23]And is really everything Judy doesn't want to be just yet.
[4:27]She's not opposed to marriage eventually,
[4:29]but right now she wants to go out and live her life.
[4:32]And I'm really drawn to these stories of women
[4:34]who are told they can't do something
[4:36]and they're kind of like, oh yeah, well,
[4:38]watch me, I'm going to do it.
[4:40]And that's exactly what Judy does.
[4:42]And she stumbles upon some love along the way,
[4:44]but it is on her own terms, not her mother's.
[4:48]What were you told you can't do?
[4:49]You couldn't do.
[4:51]Well, let's see, I was definitely told
[4:53]I wasn't going to make it as an author.
[4:55]I had a whole lot of rejections before I got here.
[4:57]I mean, I finished writing my first book in 2005
[5:00]and it took until 2020 to get a contract.
[5:02]So that was a long road.
[5:04]Lots of things, honestly.
[5:06]I've had a lot of mansplaining done to me
[5:08]and I'm sitting here like, oh, okay,
[5:10]let me explain this to you.
[5:11]Like, no, no, no, that's not how this works.
[5:14]And I was a high school English and journalism teacher
[5:17]for a really long time.
[5:19]And I ran the school newspaper
[5:21]and I ran into a lot of issues,
[5:22]especially with male principals.
[5:24]I finally had a female principal
[5:25]who was like amazing and wonderful.
[5:28]And I really only left teaching because she left
[5:30]and I probably would have stayed longer if she stayed.
[5:33]But I had a whole lot of principals tell me
[5:35]we weren't going to be able to do things.
[5:36]We weren't going to be able to make it.
[5:38]I had one who tried to block me
[5:40]from taking the newspaper online
[5:42]and when that female principal came in,
[5:44]we went online with that newspaper.
[5:46]We became the first student newspaper
[5:48]in the state of Maryland to publish daily online.
[5:50]We broke two national stories.
[5:52]We got a state law change.
[5:54]And this dude before her had said,
[5:55]no, you can't do that.
[5:56]And it's one of those situations
[5:59]where if you let me do something,
[6:00]if you get out of my way and let me do my job,
[6:02]I'm going to do it as well as I can.
[6:04]And Judy is very much like that.
[6:07]Amazing.
[6:08]Talk about the, in the acknowledgements,
[6:12]you have an anecdote about a friend of yours
[6:14]who you find out later was in the CIA along
[6:17]and you were like, no, really you.
[6:19]And you said, and there is an unsuspecting character
[6:22]in the book as well.
[6:24]Talk a little bit about that.
[6:26]So it was actually a childhood neighbor.
[6:28]So it was a childhood neighbor
[6:29]who was like the most boring person on the planet.
[6:32]Like she went to our synagogue.
[6:33]Like, you know, I babysat for her kids.
[6:36]And when she retired, it turned out
[6:37]she had been like in the CIA the entire time.
[6:40]And she was not what you would picture at all.
[6:42]She was this tiny little woman
[6:44]with like that kind of older Jewish lady haircut
[6:46]that my kids call Moza ball head.
[6:48]And I mean, she was not what she picture.
[6:50]We were all just like her seriously.
[6:54]But if you grew up in the DC area,
[6:55]if you live in the DC area,
[6:57]you know somebody whose job you don't really know.
[7:00]And I filled out a ton of security clearance background
[7:03]check things for friends who every single one of them
[7:06]told me they didn't get the job.
[7:07]And I suddenly don't know what they do for a living anymore.
[7:10]And it's like, okay, so you're in the government somehow.
[7:13]But a lot of that is very accurate to DC.
[7:16]Like that really is kind of how this stuff goes.
[7:19]There are people actually,
[7:20]everybody thinks my dad is a spy
[7:22]because he's a physics professor
[7:24]and he travels a ton and goes to all these physics conferences
[7:27]like all over the world.
[7:28]And it's all these exotic locations.
[7:30]And people are like, yeah, no,
[7:32]there's no way that's a physics professor
[7:33]because we live in Maryland outside the DC suburbs.
[7:36]And everybody thinks he's actually a spy.
[7:38]He's not, he's very nerdy.
[7:40]But maybe he is and you just don't know.
[7:41]We'll find out.
[7:42]Stay tuned.
[7:43]I've been on some of the trips.
[7:45]So I don't think so.
[7:46]But if you ever were tires, we'll find out for sure.
[7:51]You dedicated the book and talked extensively
[7:54]about an old professor of years.
[7:56]There's a lead led versus led debate.
[8:00]You credit him with helping you become a great journalist.
[8:03]Talk a little bit about or tell me more about him
[8:06]and your relationship with him
[8:07]and the inspiration of this mentor.
[8:10]So that was my high school journalism teacher, Kevin Keegan.
[8:13]And he actually drove down from Cape Cod
[8:15]to surprise me at my launch event for this book,
[8:17]which was just the sweetest thing on the planet.
[8:20]He really changed my life in many ways.
[8:22]He was the first teacher who ever wrote on one of my papers.
[8:25]You can do better than this.
[8:27]You know, I knew I was a good writer
[8:29]and I would kind of not do my best on the first assignment
[8:32]in a class and see if the teacher gave me an A
[8:34]and if they did, I could select and read my book,
[8:37]which is what I always was doing.
[8:39]I always had a book in my desk.
[8:40]But he was the first person who saw through that
[8:42]and when he told me I could do better, I did.
[8:45]And I fell in love with journalism in his class.
[8:48]It was just fantastic.
[8:49]I was editor in chief of the high school newspaper.
[8:51]I went on to major in journalism
[8:53]at the University of Maryland entirely because of him.
[8:56]And when I decided to switch to teaching journalism instead,
[9:00]I realized I didn't really want to be in the field,
[9:02]but I liked the idea of creating some better journalists
[9:04]because I had some professors who jaded me a fair bit
[9:08]about the field.
[9:09]And I remember sending him an email.
[9:11]I was crying hysterically and said,
[9:13]I hope you're not disappointed in me.
[9:14]I've decided to go into teaching instead.
[9:17]And he replied immediately and said,
[9:19]on the contrary, I couldn't be more proud.
[9:21]You're following in my footsteps.
[9:22]He gave me a huge box of everything that he taught
[9:26]when I started teaching.
[9:27]I had to digitize everything.
[9:28]He was still doing fears before me with that.
[9:31]He was still teaching.
[9:32]And I actually, my third year of teaching
[9:35]my school newspaper that I was sponsoring,
[9:37]beat his at the Columbia Scholastic Press Association
[9:40]national competition.
[9:41]He came back the following year, beat me,
[9:44]and then he retired.
[9:45]So he wouldn't get beaten again,
[9:47]which was hysterical.
[9:49]He was at my wedding.
[9:50]He's really been like a second father to me.
[9:52]I mean, he's awesome.
[9:54]The cool thing with the dedication.
[9:56]I knew from day one, I was dedicating my journalism book
[9:58]to him.
[9:59]And...
[10:00]I am really good at keeping other people secret.
[10:02]If you tell me a secret, I will take it to the grave.
[10:04]If I have a secret, I will tell everybody the second I see them and be like,
[10:08]oh, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but like, I cannot keep my own secrets to save my life.
[10:12]I saw him twice after I knew I was doing that and I was like vibrating to tell him.
[10:16]I was like, and I held it in. I waited until I had an arc and then I took him out to lunch
[10:21]when he was down here one time. And I was like, oh, I have a present for you.
[10:24]And I gave him the book and he was a great, I can't wait to dive in.
[10:27]And I said, I'll open it up. Look at the dedication page.
[10:30]And he started to cry and said it was the greatest honor of his life.
[10:33]And that just was everything. I mean, he's had such a huge impact on my life.
[10:38]So I like being able to give back a little bit.
[10:40]And I posted in an alumni group for our high school about the book launch,
[10:45]the one that I knew that he was coming to and not the one that he surprised me at.
[10:48]And a whole lot of his former students from the 70s up till the 2010s came to the launch
[10:53]because of that and had both me and him sign their books, which was so cool.
[10:57]That is so cool. Oh my gosh. Well, one of the things that's neat is you really capture
[11:02]this time and place. Like this is what it was like to work at a newspaper then. And I
[11:07]appreciate that it was not the Washington Post, but an adjacent fictitious publication.
[11:12]But I'm wondering for the Judy Greenberg of today, where there is the yes, of course,
[11:17]there are still newspapers of record, but fewer and farther between what does the young upstart
[11:25]want to be journalist do today? Does she go to a newspaper? Where do you think people graduating
[11:32]now? And what are you advising as a teacher? People to do.
[11:36]So I'm watching some of my former students actually kind of struggle with this shift.
[11:41]One of them in particular was at USA today for a while left and went to a nonprofit where she was
[11:46]doing PR and you kind of have to be able to think on your feet and be able to adapt because
[11:52]the world of journalism is rapidly, rapidly changing. Aaron Parnass on threads right now actually
[11:58]is killing it like reporting literally on threads. And there are people who are finding different
[12:03]ways to get the news out there and actually still make a living off of this, but maybe not in
[12:07]such a traditional way. I couldn't quite stomach using the Washington Post. That is my hometown
[12:12]newspaper and just there are so many changes going on right now. And I also kind of didn't want
[12:18]to. I wanted to be able to create a fictional world in this one, but that world of journalism today
[12:23]really is rough. What I loved with teaching it, however, is I was at a title one school for 13 years
[12:30]where a lot of people told these kids they weren't going to accomplish things. And we were
[12:35]really able to show that not only did their voice matter, it could be heard if they got it out
[12:41]and that's the lesson that I really liked giving these kids. So again, we broke two national
[12:45]stories, no high school journalists broke two national stories. That's crazy. And it was from kids
[12:50]who had been told they weren't going to accomplish as much. And so even if they don't use it for
[12:55]journalism, they are learning they have a voice through taking a journalism class. So I think that's
[13:00]really something important for these kids to get. I love that. What chapter would you say you are
[13:07]leaving in and entering? You know, that's kind of a tough question. I have left my teaching
[13:14]career. We are hoping that's a permanent change at this point. It always depends on book sales.
[13:20]I'm definitely in the mom phase right now. My boys are six and nine years old. And that's,
[13:25]I was talking about this the other night. Women are constantly reinventing ourselves. You know,
[13:29]we go from being around people to suddenly we have jobs and we're that person. And then we get
[13:34]married and we're the wifey person. And then we have kids and we're mom and we're bra as my six
[13:40]year old calls me these days. And you kind of get lost in there sometimes. And I'm just sort
[13:45]of starting to be like, wait, am I still in here? Like, what do I still like to do? Can I have hobbies?
[13:50]Can I go do things? Is this still me inside this mom shell? And when I'm also working and writing
[13:57]full time and I'm going to have two books a year next year. So I am working a lot. It is hard to kind
[14:03]of find time to figure out what that next chapter is going to be. And do I exist outside of my
[14:09]children and writing? Well, wait, what are the two books next year? So next year we got one with a
[14:16]different publisher. That one's going to be with Dell. It's a contemporary romcom set at the Jersey
[14:20]Shore. It's a girl whose parents decide to sell their shore house and they give her one summer
[14:24]to kind of get it in shape to be rented and make a profit. Her grandmother goes with her. And
[14:29]with the help of her brother's childhood friend who is now a very hot contractor, they work on
[14:34]the house. And she's working on a book. Her grandmother has a plan to get that sold. And it's a lot
[14:39]of fun. I really had fun writing that one. And the next one, which I'm working on right now with
[14:44]Lake Union, is still set in the 60s. It's actually centered around the first US Beatles concert,
[14:49]which was in DC in 1964. Two of my cousins were second row at that. So I've got a first hand
[14:54]look at that. And my mother-in-law and aunt-in-law were at the Ed Sullivan taping.
[14:59]So I've got some sources. And I'm really excited for that one. I'm like peppering in all kinds
[15:03]of little Beatles references throughout it. And it's going to be a lot of fun looking at early
[15:06]Beatles mania. That's amazing. By the way, you should do something with Kate Hash who wrote a book
[15:12]about a cute contractor and reinventing a house. And you know, anyway, I actually blurb that one.
[15:17]Yeah. Oh, you did. I did. You should do an event together. I would love to watch that.
[15:21]No, we've talked about that. We just haven't gotten around to it yet.
[15:24]Okay. You have plenty of time. Well, my gosh, you are so prolific and inspiring to the next
[15:30]generation of journalists as our news morphs every single day in terms of delivery and content.
[15:36]And oh my gosh, it's like hard to keep up with. So thank you for taking us back. And I bet teaching
[15:41]a lot of people even where it all began and where it is going now. And the power of his strong
[15:47]mentor and following a lead. You never know where it's going to go. And this was a really fun
[15:52]underwrite. I had a blast writing this long. You could tell it explodes off the page.
[15:58]All right. Thank you Sarah. Thanks for coming on and good luck with your son.
[16:03]Thank you so much. Okay. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi.
[16:09]Formerly, mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[16:14]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much.
[16:20]Oh, and bye the books.