Community Builders' Spotlight: Jennifer Shoop, Magpie, and the Wine Sisters Book Club
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself
[0:11]because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy!
[0:27]Today is a very special episode.
[0:29]As you all know, I am all about creating community
[0:33]around books, and so are these amazing women.
[0:37]Jennifer Shoop founded Magpie,
[0:40]a literary lifestyle community,
[0:42]publication, and platform.
[0:44]Her book is called Small Wonders,
[0:46]a field guide to life's quiet joys.
[0:49]Also, Allie and Nicky Wenti founded the Wine Sisters Book Club,
[0:53]which is another community.
[0:55]I'll read a little more about both of them,
[0:57]but so excited to showcase a couple other ways
[1:02]for book lovers to connect and books
[1:05]that make us all think and feel
[1:07]and really center around the emotions
[1:10]that make book lovers connect.
[1:13]A little more about Jennifer Shoop,
[1:14]which is our first of the two that will be focusing on here today.
[1:19]Jennifer Shoop is the creator of Magpie,
[1:21]the literary lifestyle publication and platform
[1:24]that inspires women to live thoughtful, well-curated lives
[1:27]inviting self-discovery.
[1:29]Magpie features a daily blog with an engaged readership,
[1:32]covering a wide range of lifestyle topics,
[1:35]including motherhood, friendship, love, literature, and beyond.
[1:38]Jennifer holds an advanced degree in literature
[1:41]from Georgetown University and resides in Bethesda, Maryland,
[1:44]with her husband and two children.
[1:46]The Wine Sisters Book Club was founded by Nicky Wenti
[1:51]and Allie Wenti from the Wenti family vineyards.
[1:55]These sisters who are amazing
[1:58]and I had so much fun talking to are total rock stars.
[2:03]Allie is chief revenue officer,
[2:06]while her sister Nicky is director of Vineyard Operations.
[2:10]I hope that by shining light on some other communities,
[2:14]this helps bring us all together and brings you some joy.
[2:18]First up, we have Jennifer Shoop from Magpie.
[2:21]Welcome, Jennifer.
[2:22]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked.
[2:24]Congratulations on small wonders.
[2:26]You're absolutely beautiful book.
[2:28]Thank you so much.
[2:29]And I have to say I'm such a fan girl of yours.
[2:32]I feel like I should be interviewing you
[2:33]because I am in total awe of all the,
[2:38]I think your universe of book-related stuff you do
[2:41]is so impressive to me.
[2:43]And it's inspiring.
[2:44]So thanks for having me.
[2:45]I'm inspired by all the things you've built.
[2:47]I mean, your community is beautiful.
[2:49]Your curation is amazing.
[2:51]I'm like, I can't look at these emails
[2:53]because they're costing me too much for me.
[2:55]I love the things you pick.
[2:57]All right, well, let's let's back up.
[2:59]I mean, I feel like I've read your life story
[3:01]between your website and your book and everything.
[3:03]And it's really beautiful what you've built and everything.
[3:07]But start by explaining how you founded your whole Magpie universe
[3:12]where it started in fashion.
[3:13]Now it moved like your whole thing.
[3:16]Explain. Yes.
[3:17]So I've been writing a daily lifestyle.
[3:19]I called a literary lifestyle blog for years.
[3:23]Over a decade, it started really anchored in fashion.
[3:26]I was, I had a job in the nonprofit space.
[3:29]And I really needed a, I was looking for a creative outlet,
[3:32]a different, you know, way to stretch a different muscle
[3:35]or something.
[3:36]And so it started as the fashion Magpie
[3:39]and was just a curation of fashion.
[3:41]But at some point, and it was right around
[3:43]where when I was pregnant with my first,
[3:45]I started writing a little bit more vulnerably
[3:48]about anticipation of motherhood.
[3:52]And I got such a strong response from my readers
[3:55]that I was like, oh, that's interesting.
[3:57]They want to hear my thoughts on this.
[3:58]And at that point, I really started to write
[4:01]more substantive memoirish musings about everything
[4:06]from motherhood to relationships to grief,
[4:09]to the indecision of adulthood.
[4:12]And so I've been doing that writing more in that vein
[4:15]for the last seven years.
[4:17]Actually more than that.
[4:17]Sorry, my daughter's mine nine years now.
[4:20]And I published daily on the blog
[4:23]and that sort of evolved into writing my first book.
[4:28]Well, your book is a collection of insights, poems,
[4:33]short form essays, observations.
[4:37]It's beautifully produced.
[4:39]So with the color scheme and the design,
[4:42]so it's like an artifact as well.
[4:45]But you interspersed with different seasons
[4:47]and different notices of natural life.
[4:50]I feel like you were very attuned to birds and plants
[4:55]and everything in the world
[4:57]that we should all slow down and take notice of.
[5:00]And I feel like that is one of the main theses
[5:02]of the book is like, yeah, slow it down, look around,
[5:07]and enjoy what life has to offer just to sum it up.
[5:11]Yes, I think that's a perfect summation of it.
[5:13]And I think that there's this term in birding.
[5:18]I don't know if you're interested in birds,
[5:19]but that's called a spark bird,
[5:21]which is the first bird that makes you notice
[5:24]that there are birds all around you.
[5:26]And so I think that's a cool idea
[5:29]for even if you're not into birding,
[5:30]but anything, what's that first thing that first book,
[5:32]that first piece of art, that first whatever,
[5:35]that then you're looking everywhere and seeing it everywhere
[5:38]and just attuned to a different frequency almost.
[5:42]But I felt that I feel that way profoundly with birds,
[5:45]especially because I could, you know,
[5:48]went for years without even paying attention
[5:50]to the cardinals or whatever.
[5:52]And now you go outside and you realize how small you really
[5:55]are that there are these complex,
[5:57]but almost quiet universes unfolding daily around you.
[6:01]And I really like putting myself in that place of like,
[6:06]dissolving my ego, observing the things that are around me
[6:10]that are unfolding completely agnostic to what I'm doing.
[6:13]I think that's such a, for me,
[6:15]has been such a giving and generative headspace to live in,
[6:20]to try to live in.
[6:21]Okay, yeah, it's so important.
[6:23]And you have this one that was so beautiful.
[6:26]I actually read it out loud.
[6:27]I shouldn't say beautiful again.
[6:28]That was like my third time.
[6:29]Let me try, let me say that again.
[6:30]You have one that was such a poignant reflection
[6:33]that I read it out loud to my husband,
[6:34]which was all about the different flowers
[6:37]and how you can be sad that say hydrangeas are ending,
[6:40]although that's not the way you gave,
[6:42]but I'll just give it to noticing hydrangeas ending today
[6:45]and thinking, oh my gosh, how did that even happen?
[6:47]But that just means it's paving the way
[6:49]for whatever flower is going to come next.
[6:51]And so instead of always lamenting the end of something,
[6:55]it just means that like the universe is something else
[6:57]nice planned and just like go for the right of it.
[7:00]A hundred percent.
[7:01]Yeah, there's always like the next bloom.
[7:03]I was just thinking about that because we were,
[7:06]we were traveling abroad for two weeks.
[7:08]And so we missed some of the blooms
[7:10]that I like around my neighborhood,
[7:12]but I caught the tail end of the crepe murtles,
[7:14]blooming, which are so beautiful and Bethesda,
[7:17]which is where I live.
[7:18]But yeah, just reminding myself that there's always
[7:22]like some new bloom right around the corner
[7:25]to look forward to to mark the passing of time too.
[7:30]I know.
[7:31]And Mother Nature, I think I even use this line in the book,
[7:35]but it's such a great, it's like a real life model
[7:39]for accepting change and transition with grace.
[7:44]You know, I mean, the trees that just shrivel up
[7:48]into stick figures of themselves in the winter
[7:50]and then they, you know, it's just such a beautiful analogy
[7:53]for making your way through life.
[7:55]You have another reconceptualization of something
[7:59]that I've thought a lot about, which is indecision
[8:01]and how we make decisions in life.
[8:03]And you had a whole thing about how, no, no,
[8:07]indecision is just part of the decision making process.
[8:10]And you applied it to leaping New York and moving to Bethesda,
[8:13]wanting to get out of the grind of the city into nature
[8:16]and all of that, but that you had all of these conversations
[8:19]like ping ponging back and forth.
[8:22]But that was part of the process and that we shouldn't be
[8:25]hard on ourselves for going over and over things.
[8:28]But in fact, that is how you make decisions.
[8:30]And that's okay.
[8:31]I loved that.
[8:32]Yes, I know.
[8:34]I feel so often when I think back to past versions of myself
[8:38]and even probably current version of myself
[8:40]is doing this in some way, but how I still find myself
[8:43]so frictional against certain moments.
[8:45]And like I just want to get to the next thing
[8:47]or why is this so challenging, but then you look back
[8:51]and you realize that was the thing.
[8:53]You were doing the thing while you were worrying about it.
[8:55]You know what I mean?
[8:56]And the indecision in our like 30s,
[9:00]those big life decisions that you make at that point,
[9:03]the children, the moving the jobs.
[9:06]I've had so many conversations with so many friends
[9:10]and readers Magpies, I call them about that theme,
[9:13]about feeling like you don't know.
[9:15]Everyone else seems to know what they're doing
[9:16]and you don't know and how do you make those decisions?
[9:19]So it's tough, but it is about like not,
[9:24]I think a Magpies wrote in response to that,
[9:26]like don't judge the process.
[9:27]Don't judge yourself in the process.
[9:29]Just let it unfold.
[9:31]And also your piece on how life is really a first draft,
[9:36]that we all, it can't be perfect the way we're looking now
[9:39]and we should apply the same rigor that we would
[9:43]to our work, to our lives and like it's okay.
[9:47]You have to get something down
[9:49]and you can always improve it.
[9:50]It's okay.
[9:52]It's like forgiveness.
[9:53]I feel like your whole book was about like grace
[9:56]and forgiveness, that we're almost like being too hard
[9:59]on ourselves.
[10:00]Or maybe I'm just taking that away from it.
[10:02]No, I think that's true.
[10:04]And are you an eldest daughter?
[10:06]Yes, can you tell?
[10:07]I don't know.
[10:08]I was, you had the eldest daughter energy.
[10:10]I'm also the eldest daughter, an eldest daughter.
[10:12]And for me, a lot of the writings in this phase of my life,
[10:17]maybe now I think about it, are grappling with that,
[10:19]like, unlearning that feeling of needing to be perfect
[10:23]on the first try of, you know, meeting everyone's,
[10:27]I don't know what I call people, please.
[10:28]But you know what I mean?
[10:29]Those elements of my personality,
[10:31]especially from my younger years,
[10:33]think a lot of my writing is really trying to, like,
[10:35]un-braid some of that.
[10:38]And be like, no, it's okay.
[10:40]You're a human.
[10:41]You're gonna make mistakes.
[10:42]Tomorrow is the new day.
[10:43]It's another draft, another chance.
[10:46]Also, I kind of have to do that from a survival standpoint
[10:49]as a mom.
[10:50]I'm always, I'm like, always messing up.
[10:52]You know, I'm always learning that I said the wrong thing.
[10:56]And then, you know, said, I feel like I have to reach
[10:59]for that type of forgiveness at the end of the day.
[11:04]Well, you referenced lots of poets,
[11:06]particularly Mary Oliver in the book and influences.
[11:09]And I know you have a book club that I saw in your site
[11:13]and everything and, you know, agree with a lot of your picks
[11:16]and everything.
[11:17]It's a good role of literature and the people you look up to
[11:21]in the writing world.
[11:22]Oh my gosh, there's so many.
[11:24]I mean, I, I'll say like when I was growing up,
[11:27]my parents were just, I don't think you can call it a
[11:30]prolific reader, but just a constantly reading.
[11:33]And to the point where my dad, I remember him going to
[11:35]like our school performances and need to have a thick
[11:38]church hotel next to him.
[11:40]Just in case you got bored while waiting.
[11:42]I mean, they were big readers and that set.
[11:44]So all of us, there's five kids in my family were all
[11:47]big readers.
[11:48]Actually, my brother's a public shot.
[11:50]I mean, we're just writer, reader, family.
[11:53]And so I've always read a lot and I think it reading a lot
[11:57]makes you a better writer for sure.
[12:00]Before I write, I have to read something short, usually
[12:03]poetry to just sort of get the wheels turning.
[12:07]But for this book, yes, Mary Oliver was a huge inspiration.
[12:12]I also love Elizabeth Bishop and was visiting quite a bit
[12:15]with her when I was writing this.
[12:17]And then there's the comfort of crows.
[12:20]Have you read that one by rankle?
[12:24]It's beautiful.
[12:24]It's similar to my book in the sense that short nature
[12:31]oriented museums that you hers are organized by season.
[12:35]And it's such a beautiful thing to just keep out my husband.
[12:38]I like to keep it out usually downstairs.
[12:40]And then you just open up to the season and read what she's
[12:44]so such a beautiful writer.
[12:46]She was definitely an inspiration for this work as well.
[12:50]Love that.
[12:51]So you write a daily blog.
[12:53]Where do you come up with the ideas?
[12:56]Like how does that happen?
[12:57]What is your process?
[12:59]Like how do you schedule them ahead?
[13:01]Like how does tell me about the operations behind the museum?
[13:04]Yes.
[13:05]You know, I always say I think you'd be hard
[13:07]pressed to find any woman with less on her mind.
[13:10]It's just that my vocation is writing.
[13:12]So I turn it into posts.
[13:14]But it can be anything from a book I'm reading,
[13:18]a playlist that I put together, thoughts on grief,
[13:23]thoughts on relationships, thoughts on nature.
[13:25]It's sort of whatever it tumbles out.
[13:27]When I sit down, I call it shaking hands with the blank page.
[13:30]And I sit down like, what comes out?
[13:32]What's speaking to me?
[13:33]What's making me lean forward on a particular day?
[13:36]So it really is a patchwork of completely different things.
[13:40]And then there is also like a shopping and fashion
[13:43]component to it where sometimes I'll be doing
[13:46]a roundup of cool pants for fall.
[13:48]And then the next day will be something more substantive.
[13:50]So it's a mix.
[13:52]I wish I could say that I was more scheduled out.
[13:56]But I am very hand to mouth, but I kind of like it that way.
[14:01]I feel like it gives me this proximity
[14:03]to the point of publication where it's,
[14:06]if it's something I'm grappling with today
[14:08]and I'm writing about it today
[14:09]and it's going out tomorrow or in two days,
[14:12]it makes me feel really close to the writing
[14:15]and the readership of that writing.
[14:18]Like I can respond in real time to my magpies.
[14:21]It makes it very challenging to take a vacation
[14:24]or to take a day off if I need to.
[14:26]But at this point, I've done it for so long.
[14:29]And it's so like the writing of it is like I write
[14:33]because I have to, I'm sure you feel that way as a writer
[14:35]or maybe you don't, but it's my way of processing
[14:39]the unfiltered stuff of life.
[14:42]Like I have to do it anyway.
[14:43]So it's whatever comes out on the page.
[14:46]I totally agree.
[14:47]Yes, I have.
[14:48]Even if I don't end up writing it,
[14:50]it's like I write it in my head so that I'm ready to write it.
[14:53]And then I see even if I don't have the time,
[14:55]it's like, well, I already have it
[14:56]and draft and inform and draft lately.
[15:00]I know when you're driving around
[15:01]or like in the shower, it's just like me
[15:04]like lathering myself into a phrase of something
[15:07]that happened to me.
[15:08]And it's totally, I took a little break
[15:11]from reading the physical newspapers.
[15:14]Usually I read, I like to read them like every morning
[15:17]like even just flip through quick quick,
[15:19]but the summer I was like, you know what,
[15:20]the news is depressing.
[15:22]I'm just gonna get my news online and like
[15:24]when I want to and whatever.
[15:26]And then after a couple,
[15:28]after maybe two months of that,
[15:29]I just opened up all my papers again on my mom's kitchen table.
[15:32]And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
[15:34]Like I learned more in five minutes
[15:39]and not just about the articles,
[15:40]but like what's in the ads?
[15:42]Like what are they covering it?
[15:43]I like, it was just like a total immersion.
[15:47]And I was like, I'm more on,
[15:48]I should not have stopped doing this.
[15:50]And online is totally not as good.
[15:52]Anyway, that's my two cents on papers.
[15:55]No, I know.
[15:56]And also I think maybe a piece of it is the ritual of it
[15:59]for you like that tactile like almost sensory feeling.
[16:04]I haven't done that,
[16:05]but I have gone back to reading hard copy books
[16:08]a lot more than Kindle books recently.
[16:10]And I love the heuristics of you're holding a book
[16:14]and you could feel you're getting to like
[16:16]the pages are sitting on this side of your hand
[16:19]and how that shapes your reading process.
[16:21]And just the way you remember where words are on a page.
[16:27]The whole thing of it,
[16:28]I'm sure that they're much more eloquent
[16:31]explorations of that,
[16:32]but I have been so delighted by their return
[16:35]to like the tactile analog book.
[16:38]Yeah.
[16:39]Well, that is like a no brainer for me.
[16:42]Yeah.
[16:42]I'm alive.
[16:43]I don't mean at all in Kindle.
[16:44]Yeah.
[16:45]No, oh, interesting.
[16:47]Sometimes I have to read a PDF,
[16:49]but I'll read it on my computer.
[16:50]Yeah.
[16:51]Oh, that's fascinating.
[16:53]So I have to say I still keep my Kindle on my bedside
[16:55]because if I can't like sleep, I always read
[16:59]and I don't want to wake up my husband.
[17:01]So that's my,
[17:02]I have like a little cache of my romance novels
[17:04]like keep on my kid.
[17:07]I have a collection of little night light
[17:09]so I don't wake him up.
[17:09]But they often need charging,
[17:11]which is like, why do we charge these things?
[17:15]Everything.
[17:16]So I ended up just turning on the light.
[17:17]And I'm like, here, you take an eye mask.
[17:19]I know, wait, no, that seems fair.
[17:22]I know.
[17:22]The charging and also the apps for everything.
[17:24]Like I don't need an app for my peach.
[17:26]Like I totally,
[17:28]I just want to see her turn my apps.
[17:31]My son came home from sleep where I came from.
[17:33]And I was like, mom, where are all your apps?
[17:34]And I was like, I'm not doing apps anymore.
[17:36]Just not doing it.
[17:37]I love, I know because why do you need to give
[17:41]it annoys me actually?
[17:43]That that is like a friction I have,
[17:44]especially like the sports apps for kids.
[17:47]I hate those so much.
[17:49]Like, why do I have to?
[17:51]Yeah, anyway, I'm with you.
[17:52]I've been like, I had like a science class app
[17:55]for to like stay on top of their projects.
[17:57]I'm like, I don't care.
[17:58]That was like first grade.
[18:00]Yeah, no, thanks.
[18:02]That's interesting though because I feel like
[18:05]some of my magpies have talked about this concept
[18:08]of the house hush at night.
[18:10]Like you hush your house, like you put things back,
[18:13]you set the dishwasher, whatever you do.
[18:15]But I've been thinking a lot about other things
[18:17]that you can other spaces to hush.
[18:19]And I think the phone is one of those like get rid of
[18:24]all those apps you only use once.
[18:25]So you don't really need,
[18:26]do you even need one for Uber?
[18:28]You could just like log onto their website.
[18:30]Anyway, I'm digressing.
[18:31]I want to keep Uber.
[18:32]I kept Uber.
[18:33]Okay.
[18:34]I kept Uber.
[18:35]I kept Waymo, which I've used like twice
[18:37]because you never know.
[18:38]But most of the things, most other things I got rid of.
[18:41]All right, tell me more about your magpies.
[18:44]Who are they, like how big a community is this?
[18:48]Do you gather in person ever?
[18:50]Like, tell me more about them.
[18:52]Yes, I mean, they are, they are just the most brilliant
[18:56]and loyal and thoughtful people on the planet,
[19:01]mainly women, I think 97% women.
[19:04]Spanning the ages, I'm 20 to 70.
[19:07]Really, it's interesting.
[19:09]I know a lot of my peers have more like niche audiences
[19:12]in a specific age group.
[19:14]But I really, I have my big sister magpies
[19:17]that I'm constantly asking for parenting advice.
[19:21]And you know, my peers and younger, you know,
[19:24]some of my younger ones have described me
[19:26]as they're like big sister.
[19:28]So it's, there's like a sister head among us.
[19:29]But, but yeah, on any given month,
[19:33]I mean, I have some have had up to 100,000 visitors
[19:38]per month to my blog.
[19:39]So it's a lot of like bird loving readers
[19:43]who are asking questions about their lives, I would say.
[19:48]And I write deliberately a lot of my posts
[19:51]in the interrogative versus the declarative.
[19:54]Like I, I want to invite conversation.
[19:57]And I also, I'm not so confident
[19:59]that I have the answer.
[20:00]I have, might have a perspective, but I really try to avoid writing and like, this is how you do X or this is why, you know, whatever.
[20:08]So we, we gather a lot, we're like a soft landing for one another.
[20:13]We've met only in person through my book launch events were so,
[20:18]Zippy, we're so magical.
[20:20]I mean, you created a space like this in Santa Monica for years for authors to come to your book shop, which is so incredible,
[20:27]but it was just the most magical and giving experience in my life, I think of my, definitely my professional life, like going to these places and meeting these women who have been following me for years and who I have like a real, like I was hugging so many of them.
[20:42]I was so excited. It was, oh, they're just the best. We have a, we're growing up together. I love that.
[20:49]That is such a nice way to say that. And like, sometimes it's not the people in your day to day life, right? It's like these friends who you connect over the things that really matter and maybe they're all over the world, but that's like the greatest thing about this whole new social connection or blogs or whatever that we can make these types of friends.
[21:10]It's true. And sometimes I feel like it can be easier to have like tough exploratory conversations about tough things in life, whether it's watching your parents age or going to a bumpy patch and parenting.
[21:25]I mean, I definitely have my close girlfriends and my sisters in my real life, but sometimes it feels like that those subjects can be like almost too heavy to leap into when you're just having like a coffee or
[21:36]like with this magpie community, I can put stuff hard stuff. I'm thinking about out there and there's
[21:42]almost always many other women who are like, I am thinking of the same thing. Here's what I've done or
[21:48]here's what I'm thinking about. I mentioned grief a couple times. What's your experience been like with
[21:55]grief? Well, I lost one of my best friends when I was 25 to cancer. And I think I handled that
[22:03]grief very badly at the time. I was like really avoiding looking at it. And it's taken years to just
[22:11]write about it, address it, think about it, look at it in the face. So that that really profoundly
[22:18]shaped me, though that experience and then like grappling with it all these years later on a
[22:23]potentially more frivolous note, our dog died a few years ago. And that was really profound and
[22:30]like for me, this way to like model for my kids and like a slightly safer. I mean, we're all so sad.
[22:35]I don't know if you have a dog, but it's not frivolous. And I like, you know, I braced myself
[22:41]daily, you know, I mean, I know it's not frivolous to to mourn a pet at all. Yeah, I was shocked by
[22:49]the heft of it, like really shocked. They are just like the like metronome of the house, you know,
[22:57]like they keep you going outside in the morning. They you have to care for them no matter what's
[23:01]you know, it's just that was really tough. But it gave me this moment to, you know, really like I
[23:08]had thought a lot about, oh, I wish when when Elizabeth, my friend had passed, I had done this or that
[23:13]or I accept let myself do things in different ways. And so I was happy to have that in a positive way
[23:20]have the opportunity to go through it with my kids and be like, it's okay to cry. It's okay.
[23:24]It's, you know, let's talk about her. Let's talk about it. So I've written quite a bit about that.
[23:29]And actually, yeah, I shouldn't have said frivolous because it's really not, but I I do,
[23:33]I've had such a strong reaction to that set of writings from readers, people, you know, preparing,
[23:41]like there's this great quote, Wendell Berry calls it the forethought of grief. And like that
[23:48]experience of like, you know, your dog is at the end of their life thinking through that.
[23:52]Anyway, it's that's been a really beautiful way to connect with people at this really tender
[23:58]moment that if you don't have a pet, you're like, what, don't understand how heavy and intense
[24:03]that is. Yes. Oh, gosh. What's your dog's name? My dog's name is Nia. What was your dog's name?
[24:11]Tilly short for Tilden. Yeah. Tilly marigolds, chup very proper name for a very sassy lady.
[24:21]Well, it's just it's so nice to be able to share and then feel that you're not being judged.
[24:28]And I mean, I feel like that's what the magpies are giving to you and like, yes, but everything
[24:33]out there. And it's so like delicately carefully received. What a gift to you and to them.
[24:40]My gosh, for sure. I've learned so much daily from that community and it's really special.
[24:48]It's amazing. And when you thought about the book, I'm sure there were so much you wanted to put
[24:52]in. How did you curate what to include and whatnot? Yeah, that was really that was a really hard
[25:01]undertaking because I've only ever written in short form blog post format. And so
[25:06]to have the longitude of this needs to be in conversation with this, maybe realize I overuse
[25:13]certain words a lot, which was helpful self instruction. But it really did kind of, I was actually
[25:19]straight. I was actually worried. I wouldn't have enough to put in there. I know that sounds ridiculous
[25:23]because I write so much, but I was like, what belongs in here? That was a really hard question
[25:29]because I it's not a blog post that I can go back and edit. It's not fungible. Once it's out there,
[25:35]that's like the version it's going to be in forever. And so it was so nervous about what would
[25:39]make the cut like what will I look back in 20 years and cringe at this probably. But
[25:45]you know, I don't know how you grapple with that feeling of permanence in like a hard cut in like
[25:50]a published book. How has that been an issue for you at all? I can totally relate to that. Yes,
[25:56]it's really hard. And then I have to just tell myself, it might feel very permanent to me,
[26:01]but the people reading it are just going to read it and put it down and forget it. Okay, that is
[26:05]like, they're not going to be judging it against what they what they could have read. They'll never
[26:09]know. So also getting that experience and they're not going to be ever judging it the way that you
[26:14]will judge yourself. That's true. And I also took a lot of comfort. And do you know the writer
[26:22]Celika Juad? Oh yeah, I love her. Yeah. Love her writing. And I remember her writing about how there's
[26:27]this very like common writerly experience of like you go to like a pit of despair right before you
[26:33]are about to release something where you're like, you can't edit it anymore. But you're like,
[26:37]oh my god, it's terrible. Just I can't even, but that gave me comfort that she who's such a phenomenal
[26:43]writer. She even she experiences that and other tremendously talented authors experience that. So
[26:50]I took that as a little comfort right before we published. I think all authors have a lot of
[26:56]self-doubt and nerves before a book comes out and even the most accomplished ones they have
[27:02]farther to fall and they get more nervous. Like what if what if this one doesn't live up to it.
[27:06]So that's a good point. We're all a mess. Right.
[27:11]Who's the best? What advice would you have for aspiring authors or bloggers?
[27:17]I always talk about how I treat my writing like a job. Like I am usually I might ask for the work
[27:24]day. Like I sit down at night. I'm I'm done at five or ish. But and I do that because you know
[27:31]inspiration. I've learned that inspiration is not always going to magically find me whenever I
[27:35]want it to. And so what I can control is being disciplined. And so every day write something,
[27:42]write something bad. Sometimes it will be good. You know. So I think it's really it's a practice. It's
[27:49]you know, you have to do it for a long time. And to continue with the shrink that gap between
[27:54]what I want my writing to be like and what it is right now. So that's my top advice is just get
[27:59]into a really like crisp disciplined routine. And then the other thing, which maybe goes, well,
[28:06]I don't know, but it's just get your work out there as soon as possible. And for me, that's easy to
[28:10]say because I have a blog where I can just publish things whenever I want to. But whatever format
[28:15]and whether it's writing or some other creative practice, like you can't just like hide it until
[28:21]you think it's perfect because it's like never going to get there. So you just have to get over
[28:26]that cringey hump of putting something out there. And the other thing about that though is I really
[28:33]believe that once you've released something, it sort of stops belonging to you as the author.
[28:39]Because I mean, I've done my job like that's done. Now it's the reader's job to figure out what
[28:46]they think of it. And that's not really any of my business. You know, they can think whatever they want.
[28:51]I find that perspective really liberating and helps me keep just putting stuff out there that I think
[28:56]is interesting. You know, and not worries so much about like necessarily is it the best possible
[29:05]thing I could release. Just get it out there. Get a first draft out there. Get something out there.
[29:09]Continue to laminate. That's amazing. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much. This was a pleasure
[29:16]at the book was a pleasure to read and I'm a fan. Congratulations. Thank you so much. I'm
[29:21]such a fan of yours. I was so honored to be asked to be on here. Oh, thank you. Okay. Hope to meet
[29:27]you in real life. Me too. Okay. Bye. Bye. And now stay tuned because we have another short segment
[29:35]where we are talking to the co-founders of the Wine Sisters Book Club, Allie and Nikki Wenti.
[29:44]Welcome to Allie and Nikki, the Wine Sisters. I am so excited to have both of you here to talk about
[29:52]your Wine Sisters Book Club books in general, your podcast, all the good things. Welcome.
[29:59]Thank you for having me.
[30:00]Yes. Oh my gosh, we always talk at the same time.
[30:05]So I know the origin story of your book club and the podcast and all the rest and
[30:10]in particular how Nikki got back into books after a lot of headaches caused her to stop watching
[30:15]so much TV, which is probably a good thing anyway. Why don't you tell listeners a little bit
[30:20]about how you took your fifth generation wine business and turned it into a modern day podcast and
[30:27]book club? Well I think we and I'll say something first Nikki you can tell me if you think I'm
[30:33]wrong. It's always fun to do things with your sister because we will be like the first to point out
[30:37]something with each other but we really Nikki got both of us into reading and it is one of our favorite
[30:46]hobbies and we love love love books. We also love love love wine and I think we wanted to do
[30:52]something that felt a little bit like a sole project that would fill our cup and so I had this
[30:59]idea and I pitched it to Nikki of doing a book club podcast and I think you know there's
[31:05]different things we're talking about now we always talk about books we always talk about wine we're
[31:09]talking about different topics but I think we you know found a lot of connection at like our local
[31:14]book club with our you know girls that we grew up with because we both love in the town that we
[31:19]grew up in and we thought about how could we you know bring wine and books to more people and do
[31:25]something that we love and be able to spend more time together as sisters and so that's how it kind
[31:29]of came about. No notes. So the in-person book club component do you actually meet in-person with the
[31:39]group or no? Yes. Yeah so we have like a separate book club that we meet in-person we don't always
[31:46]have the same books as our podcast that we meet in-person but it was kind of like what spurred the
[31:52]idea because like as new moms we both have young children two and four-year-olds and we just wanted
[32:00]something to do for ourselves and so having this in-person book club was like and one of the reasons
[32:05]we were like wait what if we did a podcast because we love books we read so much like it would just
[32:09]be easy we could pick a book either that we're already reading for the book club or one that we want
[32:15]to read like a wish list book and then let's just get started so it's the the people that listen
[32:23]to the podcast aren't necessarily all the girls that are in our in-person one but we have done one
[32:27]in-person event for the podcast at one of our winery estates which was really fun we had I think
[32:34]it was that like 50 ladies join for girl dinner and conversation about book in a book swap which
[32:42]was really fun also and I personally would love did you more of those types of events in the future
[32:47]yeah definitely I think we you know like there's something wine is to us wine brings people together
[32:55]and I think being in this book club also to what Nikki said it's like was something that gave us
[33:00]a lot of joy and it brings people together and I think there's like a really like natural connection
[33:05]between wine and books and so we also wanted to bring people maybe who aren't maybe who love reading
[33:11]but aren't you know really comfortable with wine or drinking wine and kind of bridge the gap between
[33:17]the two so we could try to you know connect with people culturally about wine that maybe it wasn't
[33:22]necessarily about wine to begin with and we you know got there through books so anyways kind of
[33:27]convoluted but I think it all is about just connection and and sharing different things you love
[33:34]with people and a lot of your book picks are ones that I've had on my podcast and that I've
[33:39]also loved and so I feel like I'm not into the fantasy as much I feel like you guys skew a little
[33:45]over here a little more rom-com a little more fantasy but a lot of there was still a lot of overlap
[33:51]with with what you were recommending so what is your current what are you reading currently or
[33:56]what are some recent in last month or two that you have loved oh my gosh that's such a good
[34:02]question and we do love a lot of the same books as you so I have to say but yes we do love our
[34:06]fantasy we can't help ourselves I did see that you recently hosted about Calamity Club and I
[34:11]just finished that and I thought it was so good it was definitely a great book so really love that
[34:17]and then we also just for our in-person book club we picked a book called This Story might save
[34:23]your life which is like a little bit of like a mystery I don't know would you call it a thriller
[34:28]Nikki like mystery thriller sort of yeah it's kind of a thriller yeah yeah actually there's
[34:33]broadcasters but I thought that one was really good too like it was a it was a good blend and
[34:38]then really love dolly all the time so I feel like those are my top three that I've read recently
[34:43]in the past month amazing how about you I'm currently listening to on audio Juni which is really
[34:52]good so far I'm like halfway through and I'm super into it I didn't expect it to have sort of like
[34:57]a fantastical element I thought it was going to be very much just a contemporary novel or historical
[35:04]fiction but it's got a little bit of fantasy in it which I love and I'm also reading Whistler
[35:09]right now which and I loved is it yeah yeah yeah I loved her the last book I read by her
[35:15]which I'm blanking on the name of that chest no oh Tom Lynch just these precious days Tom
[35:23]oh yeah I love that book so I'm really loving Whistler I'm in the middle of that one as well
[35:28]I usually have two books going at once and then I just finished a book called The Poet Empress
[35:34]which is a historical fantasy and it was really beautifully written like very poetic writing it
[35:41]kind of was like a meandering story that led you to the end and it was the author did a really
[35:48]good job at like not letting you decide how you felt like you kept changing your mind which I
[35:55]thought was a really powerful way of writing I wish I could write like that I love that that is
[36:00]so cool I just finished Whistler also I read the whole thing like start to finish on an airplane
[36:05]and now I that's what my book story picked for their book club pick like you I have like my own
[36:10]and they the bookstore has their own but anyway but now I'm finding myself like really wanted to talk
[36:14]so I might have to like zoom into my bookstore or something so I can hear what everybody has to
[36:18]say about it yeah I'm definitely putting this on on my list then I haven't had it on my list yet but
[36:23]I will maybe my TBR so tell me a little more about the wine component of how do you pair wines
[36:32]to books how do you I mean it's such a subjective thing how things taste right how do you
[36:37]pick the right wine when someone is like I'm in the mood for whatever and they don't really
[36:42]even know what they're in the mood for like how do you make all that magic happen
[36:46]that's a good question I think I like I'll choose like the vibe of a book so if I'm reading
[36:53]something like Whistler where it's kind of got like so far it's like a very light to up to 50
[37:00]percent I like I'm kind of scared about what's going to have a next but because there was some
[37:06]lying going on but anyways I right now it's like lighthearted I would probably pick something like
[37:13]champagne because they talk about drinking champagne like there's like yeah you know I get echoes
[37:18]and it feels very light and like happy effervescent because you're reconnecting with loved ones
[37:24]that you haven't seen for a long time I don't know how I feel about the end of the book you know
[37:28]sometimes again Patrick just pulls a password on you but I'll like try and either they give you
[37:34]you some cues where they mention a wine and you can be like oh this is a book about Merlot or they
[37:41]have like a theme like I think wild dark shore was a good one where I'm like ooh thinking about like
[37:47]that wild dark shore thinking about like something a little bit darker moody like a big bold
[37:52]cabernay something like that would like cuddled up on a couch reading this while drinking a glass of
[37:57]this beautiful dark big wine sounds like a nice little pairing and so I think there's also some of
[38:03]of that if they don't mention any wine drinking in the book yeah we're really big on picking the
[38:08]wine based on like our mood or the mood of the book the mood of how we feel when we read it
[38:15]and so for in our podcast Nicky and I blind taste each other on a wine that we feel like pairs
[38:21]with the book which is kind of fun because then we have to try to guess what the other one was
[38:26]thinking and how they felt so that and then and then we also show everyone that Nicky and I
[38:31]grew up in wine we like jokingly say that we have you know wine in our bloodstream maybe
[38:35]because it's just genetics at this point but you know like we get our blind tasting's wrong all
[38:40]the time I think wine can sometimes be mysterious a little intimidating if you aren't fully comfortable
[38:47]on how it's made or why you should care about the soil or you know things like that and we're trying
[38:51]to break it down to be like it doesn't matter and even if you work in wine we still can't guess even
[38:57]our own wines have to time that are in the glass you know we're blind tasting each other on it
[39:02]and you can pick a wine based on your mood and you don't have to it doesn't have to be so
[39:08]you know deep on exactly how it's made or or why you want that wine it's just like oh this book
[39:14]feels like sunshine great I want a glass of chardonnay because that's what sunshine is to me
[39:18]you know so that's I think that's how we go about it do you try to market yourself to book
[39:24]clubs as like the go-to source of like picking books for their books too and that would be really
[39:30]fun that's a great idea you haven't done that I think it's still like this is such like a passion
[39:38]project for us we are having like fun while we're doing it but we have we haven't like invested
[39:43]the time to be like how can we make this grow because we are also working full time at our
[39:49]families business right so it's definitely a passion project that we love but it hasn't got the
[39:55]time and attention it deserves okay so when you're full time
[40:00]when you're, quote unquote, regular jobs.
[40:01]Tell me what, what do those look like?
[40:03]And then where do all your kids come into everything?
[40:06]Tell me like your whole day, daily,
[40:08]give me a snapshot of your days.
[40:11]Nikki, your days more cool in mind, so why don't you start?
[40:15]So I'm our director of Vineyard Operations.
[40:17]So I actually, on a day that I'm not taking my kids to school,
[40:20]my husband and I have to trade off for his job as well.
[40:23]But I am at work at 6 a.m.
[40:26]and I am in the fields monitoring work,
[40:29]making strategic decisions on farming and quality
[40:33]and what grades are going to end up in what program
[40:36]for different wines.
[40:38]And then I pick my kids up from school at about four
[40:41]and then I make them dinner
[40:44]and I read books usually while they're playing.
[40:47]I love my Kindle, like my Kindle is my safe space.
[40:50]I bring that Kindle around with me everywhere
[40:52]if they're playing and doing independent player.
[40:54]I'll sit on the couch and read.
[40:55]If they want me, I stop reading, I put it down.
[40:58]I hang out with them.
[40:59]And then after I put them to bed,
[41:00]I read for another hour or two.
[41:03]I generally wake up pretty early.
[41:04]So like this morning, I was up at four
[41:06]and I just laid in bed for about an hour reading.
[41:09]So I read most in the morning and at the end of the day,
[41:13]that's where I squeeze it all in.
[41:14]But yeah, that's my general day.
[41:17]And you listen to books a lot in the car
[41:19]because you're driving around the vineyards.
[41:21]And so you're also kind of listening to audio while you do that.
[41:24]Yeah, anytime I'm in the car,
[41:25]I just have an audio book running
[41:27]unless I have someone else with me
[41:28]and I'll put on music.
[41:30]So they probably don't want to jump into the middle
[41:32]of what they've never heard.
[41:35]Yeah, no, so Nicky has the fun job for sure.
[41:38]I oversee sales, our sales team,
[41:42]marketing and hospitality teams.
[41:44]So every day, a little bit different for me,
[41:48]but it's more, I definitely have more of a desk job for sure.
[41:51]And I definitely, I travel a lot for work too.
[41:54]And so kind of travel around the country
[41:55]and help sell our family wines,
[41:58]which our wines are sold in about 70 countries around the world.
[42:03]So I don't travel to all those countries all the time,
[42:06]primarily just the US.
[42:07]But I am on the road a lot,
[42:08]which I guess also helps my reading
[42:10]because I'm constantly in airplanes or on the go.
[42:13]So that makes it a little bit easy.
[42:15]I'm like, Nicky, the Kindle kind of like changed my reading life
[42:18]and like really enabled me to get into it, I think.
[42:21]So I love that when I'm home.
[42:23]I definitely am like, I try to take the kids to school.
[42:26]I'm most of the time picked them up a little bit closer to five.
[42:31]And you know, we are, we're cooking dinner.
[42:33]Like the kids are hungry at five o'clock, right?
[42:36]When they get home from school, it's really like,
[42:37]okay, I always call it my afternoon intermission
[42:40]because a lot of the times after they go to bed
[42:42]at like eight o'clock, I'm probably back to work
[42:45]on my computer, you know, in my bedroom,
[42:47]the living room or something and then squeezing in the,
[42:49]hopefully about an hour of reading before going to bed.
[42:53]So my reading definitely used to be better.
[42:56]And like this year, I've been telling Nicky,
[42:57]but it's like falling off a cliff because my job changed
[43:00]a little bit.
[43:01]And so now I just don't feel like I have quite as much time.
[43:04]But it's definitely, it's like, if I am not reading
[43:07]and maybe you feel like this city
[43:08]and like I know you do a lot with different books,
[43:10]like you, right?
[43:11]You publish your bookstore, like you do this.
[43:13]Like you've so much going on with books.
[43:15]But I feel like if you're not reading a book,
[43:18]it's like there's like a hole in your heart a little bit.
[43:20]Like I have to read a little every day
[43:22]or it just doesn't feel like it was a complete day.
[43:26]Yeah, I agree.
[43:27]I feel like especially at the end of the day.
[43:28]Even if I'm like exhausted, I'm like,
[43:31]hold on, I just need to read at least one page.
[43:33]I mean, usually I read far longer than that.
[43:35]But like even on the nights where I can barely keep my eyes open,
[43:38]it's like my last thing before bed.
[43:40]It's like, yeah, ritual.
[43:42]I agree.
[43:43]I think I try so hard also.
[43:46]Last night I was in the airplane.
[43:48]We like didn't sleep on our flight home from Italy,
[43:51]which was a terrible mistake.
[43:52]It was like we pulled in all night or that was so tired.
[43:55]I was like sitting on the plane,
[43:56]like holding my eyes open.
[43:57]So I could read more of the book to like,
[44:01]but you know, I just thought was what I really wanted to do.
[44:04]I'm kind of regretting it today.
[44:05]Probably should have slept.
[44:09]Oh my gosh.
[44:10]How do you, do you drink the wine?
[44:12]Like doesn't that make you tired?
[44:13]Wine makes me very sleepy.
[44:15]Yeah, it definitely does.
[44:17]But you know, like if we have a few glasses of wine at night,
[44:20]I probably don't read as much that night,
[44:21]but I still will get reading it.
[44:24]But yeah, you know, I think like we're kind of used to it.
[44:26]I don't know why it is just like a part of our lifestyle.
[44:29]We don't drink tons of it.
[44:30]Like maybe we'll have a glass or two at night.
[44:33]And so I think it's just a balance.
[44:35]But yeah, it does make you sleepy sometimes.
[44:37]You do.
[44:38]You just like how much you want to read
[44:40]and how much you want to drink.
[44:43]There's definitely a correlation.
[44:44]If you have more than two glasses of wine,
[44:46]you probably are not going to read more than two pages.
[44:50]Do you try to read books about sisters too?
[44:52]Or is that just like a plus?
[44:55]That's just a plus for me.
[44:57]I honestly, I like, I feel like books hunt me out.
[45:00]Like I watch a lot of Instagram and TikTok content about books.
[45:05]And if I see someone that's like,
[45:07]oh my God, I love this book.
[45:09]I will just put it on my TBR
[45:13]and it'll eventually be read.
[45:14]I don't, I'm not very like specific, I don't think.
[45:18]No, and I just read whatever Nicki reads.
[45:20]Like she's got me what was good.
[45:22]It's amazing.
[45:23]She reads so much more than me
[45:24]that she'll tell me like the stale,
[45:26]like every month I probably,
[45:28]I don't know, maybe every other week I'll text her
[45:30]and be like, all right, what are the books you've read lately
[45:32]that I have to get all my rotation and she'll tell me.
[45:36]And so then that's what I've read next.
[45:38]It's pretty funny.
[45:39]Like rarely do I find a book
[45:41]that she hasn't recommended and read it on my own.
[45:45]So I just follow her light, which is amazing.
[45:50]The lucky we have the same taste in books,
[45:53]because that would, that would make it more complicated.
[45:56]Except you like a little bit more like whimsical fantasies.
[46:00]Yeah, I don't like those very much.
[46:02]Yeah, that's the, that's our big difference there.
[46:04]I don't like the whimsical books very much.
[46:08]Yeah.
[46:09]There were many of fairy tales, you know,
[46:10]bring it back to your childhood.
[46:12]So as huge readers who also recommend books
[46:17]to your book club and discuss on your podcast,
[46:20]I know Ellie you get rexed from Nikki Instagram and everything,
[46:23]but like what is it about a book?
[46:26]Or what is it you're really looking for
[46:28]when you're finding a book or where do you hear about it?
[46:31]Or like what is, like what should authors
[46:34]who are listening know, for example,
[46:37]about like trying to reach?
[46:38]I can just hear, I can imagine an author
[46:40]like in the car right now hearing this conversation
[46:43]and thinking, well, what are these girls?
[46:45]Like what could, how could I reach these girls?
[46:48]Like I have a book, I bet they would love.
[46:50]Do you know what I mean?
[46:51]Yeah.
[46:53]Oh, that's a good, I mean, so I definitely am tuned in
[46:56]to like the specifically Instagram.
[46:59]I'll look at TikTok, but not very often.
[47:00]So like if they're advertising their book on Instagram,
[47:04]a lot of those authors will come across
[47:07]my Instagram real track.
[47:10]And then like I look on NetGalley too for books.
[47:14]Like if they have their book on NetGalley,
[47:16]I will sometimes look in there and see what kind of books
[47:18]they have available.
[47:20]I generally when I'm reading a book,
[47:22]like all I want the book to do is make me feel.
[47:25]And like it could make me feel uncomfortable,
[47:27]it could make me feel happy, it could make me feel emotional.
[47:31]Like I just want it to make me feel,
[47:33]like me remember, like make me like align it to my life
[47:37]in some way.
[47:38]Like if it's pulling out a memory,
[47:41]if it's giving me like an idea of like a wish for my future,
[47:44]like I think that's really what draws me into a book.
[47:47]So like once I start reading, that's like,
[47:49]when I, that's when I know like,
[47:50]oh, this is gonna be a really good book.
[47:53]And I usually like want the hook from early in the book.
[47:56]Okay, I will, can I am the person that will read the book
[48:00]through the end, even if I don't like it,
[48:02]I will read to the end,
[48:03]because I cannot stop up something that I started.
[48:06]But I like, and I most books grow on you by the end,
[48:09]it's just the nature of reading.
[48:11]But I really wanna be hooked in from the beginning.
[48:13]And so like I love a strong hook
[48:15]and I love something that makes you just like really feel.
[48:18]So heartstrings are so important.
[48:21]I love that answer and thank you.
[48:23]How about you Alan?
[48:24]I'm kind of like, thank you.
[48:27]I look at a lot of like the like book influencers,
[48:30]if you will on, and like we've a,
[48:32]we have like, I was like, we did out the like book
[48:35]influencers, Instagrammers, that I really,
[48:38]like I can, I've now like honed on,
[48:40]okay, who has similar taste to me.
[48:42]So when they are saying that they love the book,
[48:44]I can be like, okay, I think I actually might like that book
[48:48]because I've waited them out by now.
[48:49]So I think that's, you know,
[48:51]if I am reading something that Nicky didn't tell me to read,
[48:53]and I'm getting it from that, or it's an author,
[48:57]you know, that we already read before.
[48:59]And it comes up like Kindle will actually kind of like,
[49:03]serve things up to me within the Kindle app.
[49:05]Like, oh, if you read this, you'll like this.
[49:07]And so sometimes I explore through that.
[49:09]And then I think, you know, things like this,
[49:11]like what, you know,
[49:12]Zippy, your podcasts are even going into local book stores,
[49:16]you know, sometimes a fun way to discover
[49:18]what's new and current and look at things.
[49:20]So I think that and there's a couple of like book podcasts
[49:24]out there.
[49:25]So I think you have to like have your hands
[49:26]in a few different things.
[49:27]It's the same with marketing wine.
[49:29]It's so hard to like get your name out there,
[49:31]but it makes sense.
[49:32]Where do you find your books, Zippy?
[49:35]Thanks for asking.
[49:38]I guess I first look when I'm buying for the bookstore,
[49:42]because that's where I see earliest what's coming out.
[49:44]And then I sort of whittle it down from there.
[49:47]Sometimes I miss books and I get them when people pitch me,
[49:50]but for the most part,
[49:52]I feel like it's buying ahead for the bookstore by season
[49:55]and knowing who I'm after, mostly.
[49:57]But then sometimes we're laughing because of all sorts.
[50:00]Yeah, well not even authors just like does that description like let me read the description.
[50:05]Let me see the whole package of this book and you know and then if I've been pitched or other
[50:10]people start talking about it and it's already on my radar you know all that catch the buzz all
[50:15]of that yeah anyway um well it was so nice to talk to both of you about books about one I feel
[50:22]like there's fun stuff we could do in the future and you know I really enjoyed listening to your
[50:27]podcast it was totally entertaining and I love how you speak about motherhood so openly and
[50:32]all stresses and the reality of fitting in books and kids and wine and fun and all of that it's
[50:40]really important and it's a conversation that um I know helps lots of people get through the day
[50:46]so thank you thank you very much thank you for having us. Thanks for listening to this
[50:52]double episode I hope that you found both their communities very interesting. Thank you for
[50:57]listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone have time to read books if you loved the show
[51:03]tell a friend leave a review follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and spread the word
[51:09]thanks so much oh and bye the books