Eriq La Salle on the Journey of a Character’s Soul
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and that the story behind it. Enjoy! I absolutely
[0:27]loved interviewing Eric LaSalle, the author of Laws of Solomon. Before the
[0:33]episode aired, I had to ask him a question about the ending and he was so
[0:38]excited about my question and he was like oh my gosh this is going to be a great
[0:41]episode and we just had the best time. Eric is an actor, director, producer,
[0:48]and author. He may be best known to audiences for his portrayal
[0:52]of Dr. Peter Benton on the groundbreaking medical drama E.R.
[0:56]I don't think I missed an episode of E.R. I was obsessed with that show.
[0:59]Other notable acting appearances include Coming to America,
[1:02]One Hour Photo, and Logan. Eric LaSalle received his formal training from
[1:07]Juilliard and NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and has built a prolific
[1:11]career behind the camera as well, directing and executive
[1:13]producing for law and order on call FBI Chicago PD
[1:17]among others. After decades of success in the entertainment industry,
[1:21]Eric launched his highly personal and award-winning
[1:24]murder maker series. This is number four of the series. With these novels he
[1:28]brings an unusual new depth and emotion to the traditional procedural
[1:32]thriller. Welcome Eric. Thank you so much for coming on totally
[1:35]booked to talk about Laws of Solomon. The fourth in the
[1:39]murder maker novel series. Congrats. Yes, thank you.
[1:43]So this is probably the first book I've read where I am so
[1:47]rooting for someone who is a killer, right? He's an assassin. He's broken
[1:52]every role. He's harmed so many people. And yet all I want is his
[1:56]happiness and vindication and all of it. And that's impressive to be able to
[2:01]make someone who has theoretically done immoral acts.
[2:06]Feel like the coziest warmest protagonist who you like want to hug and
[2:10]make everything better in their lives. That's a gift.
[2:13]Right. Well, thank you. No, thank you. I just want to say
[2:17]glad to be here. Really honored. You know, it is
[2:21]the book has raises questions. And as I started off with
[2:26]the themes of such as I'm going to explore themes such as
[2:32]can the man who's done the most violent, vile things be forgiven?
[2:41]Can that person find redemption? And so, and a thing I love about
[2:48]Solomon is that he never apologizes for anything he's done.
[2:54]He is committed to being who and what he is. A lot of the
[2:59]of course was forced. But, but so this is an interesting question and can
[3:04]that person truly find peace? And are we defined by our past? Are we
[3:11]like irretrievably unrevocably? Are we, are we, are we
[3:17]tied to that? And so I just wanted to explore those things. And
[3:21]that's who this character is. And um, and, and he is, I mean,
[3:25]but some people, he is a, for some people, the book is a,
[3:29]a villain origin story. For some people, I, I look at him as an
[3:34]anti hero more than a villain. Um, does villainous things.
[3:40]But, um, I look at him as an anti hero. I look at him, look at him as a
[3:45]reluctant hero. Um, by the time he meets Gabby, because he never went
[3:50]seeking any of this stuff. He never, he, he's like, it came for me. It came for me.
[3:56]As you know, that's me. So, so those were just some of the things I really wanted to
[4:00]explore with this book. Yeah. And why do you think you're interested in these topics?
[4:04]Like, what is it about that? What appeals to you so much about
[4:08]wondering about the mistakes of our past? Well, I think it's, you know, these are
[4:13]questions that I think come up at some point in your life. Um, I think for
[4:18]some of us, they come up a lot more. Um, I think as a storyteller is,
[4:23]you know, I wanted all of the books, although they're, you know, they're very
[4:28]violent and they're thrillers and they're interesting and they're edgy and they're dark.
[4:33]At the core, they're these interesting, they were designed to be these interesting
[4:37]parables, short, high and I don't consider myself a religious person, but I am very intrigued
[4:46]and I'm somewhat obsessed with the concept of the soul and of the soul. So, most of my stories
[4:56]in one way or another connect to the journey of a character's soul and some ultimately in this
[5:03]series, we get to explore the souls of our traditional protagonists. Um, this book also should
[5:09]be mentioned that it is, um, the penultimate is four books of five and it's in departure. This is
[5:18]Solomon was introduced in book one and just, I don't know, maybe a paragraph. He existed for just
[5:25]a paragraph. Uh, he is my version. A lot of my books are, um, influenced in, in a, at least to
[5:34]some degree by my favorite films. I always saw Solomon as my version of my favorite film of all
[5:41]time is The Godfather. I designed Solomon to be the, the African version of Luca Bratsy.
[5:50]So if you, you know, so this is a departure book because it doesn't even focus on our,
[5:56]our main protagonists. This is a, this is, he's, and so Solomon has always been in this series.
[6:03]He's been a side character, but he became so dynamic, particularly in book two that he started
[6:10]demanding his own story. So I thought that I would take a slide detour in the series. Yep.
[6:17]And so now I flipped it. So now the protagonist, they're only in one chapter laws of Solomon,
[6:24]whereas Solomon used to only be, you know, like I said, in book two, he, he gets to do some
[6:29]really cool things. And, and he became so intrigued and I was like, he deserved his own book. So,
[6:33]so Solomon is, um, is, is Luca Bratsy. It's a Luca Bratsy like, how did Luca Bratsy start? Well,
[6:39]what was the, what made Luca Bratsy doing? That's what I wanted for Solomon, which is AKA
[6:44]The African. Um, and he's a notorious ruthless, um, killer. He's done some horrible things.
[6:51]And yet I, I needed the audience and I, I wanted the audience to fall in love with him and
[6:56]root for amazing. Well, maybe we should back up for two seconds and just say, so when the book opens,
[7:03]he's, Solomon is tending to the garden. You think it's going to be like this peaceful story of
[7:09]two wise or older men sharing poetry quotes and quizzing each other. And I was like, this is
[7:15]lovely. It's going to be like a, a friendship story of men and all of this. And next thing you know,
[7:20]like a cartel comes in and everybody's shooting each other up and there's blood everywhere and
[7:25]I'm like, okay, we're going in a different direction than maybe I thought. Anyway, so it starts with
[7:29]that. There's a boy Gabby who is left alone and Solomon takes him under his wing and the rest
[7:36]of the book is sort of them trying to escape people after them, essentially. Yes. In a nutshell,
[7:43]in a nutshell, so many other things to that. But that is the obvious thriller aspect of it. If
[7:50]you, if we actually sum it up, it's a man. And so Solomon as a book, um, so Solomon, the character
[7:57]was loosely based on Luca Rousey. Solomon as a book is loosely based on one of my other favorite
[8:03]man on fire. Okay. I thought it was Mean Streets. Did you say anything about Mean Streets or
[8:08]maybe I'm losing my mind? No. Okay. Anyway, so man on fire, uh, the Denzel Washington version,
[8:14]because yes, yes, original Scott Glenn version that was made in the 80s. And of course that's based
[8:19]on a novel. I was reading, but the Denzel Washington version is one of my favorite films. So I saw
[8:25]this as loosely based on man on fire where you have this, this character was at the end of his career
[8:33]and, and, and just reflecting on much more reflective and philosophical and seeking peace and,
[8:39]and redemption. Now, the, the, the, we, Solomon was, Solomon did not start off.
[8:44]Solomon is not seeking redemption. That's the question. That's the other cool. He's not seeking
[8:49]redemption. He only, he's just committed to doing what he knows how to do. And he knows how
[8:55]to kill him. So I think the thing that makes the journey interesting is not his skill set,
[9:03]but the reason is killing for a different reason. And that's when I think we, as the audience
[9:11]start falling in love with him in a weird way that we start to love with this killer because
[9:17]when it's the reason that he's doing what he's doing, he, he doesn't seek redemption. He
[9:21]doesn't seek forgiveness. He doesn't seek any of the, he literally is just like, hey, I am when I am.
[9:27]And, and, and Gabby, in some ways you can look at the story as, it's a love story. And it's a
[9:35]love story between two beings. So I think this little boy comes into his life and, and, and shows
[9:44]him love and shows him, you know, and it's also the other thing about the story is, it's a very,
[9:50]it's an interesting twist. It's a coming of age story. But it's a coming of age story for Solomon,
[9:56]not the boy. You have this dynamic of an,
[10:00]dark in a child. It's the child coming of age. In some ways, this book is a coming of age story
[10:06]for the man and the boy in some ways facilitates that in the traditional way that we always see the
[10:13]mentor facilitating it in, you know, the protege. So I wanted to play with that type of dynamic
[10:19]as well. So that's, you know, that's how I see it.
[10:22]I feel like one of the themes of the book is really how do these terrible things that
[10:27]happen to us shape how we see the world, how we recover from them. So women has the worst
[10:33]things happen. Like the worst imaginable, the scene was like hard to read. I was like, oh my gosh,
[10:39]this poor boy, he had something horrific happen. And then more horrific, awful things where
[10:46]you think, how does somebody get through something like that? And to have him go through these
[10:50]horrible two, like sort of bookend horrific things. What do you do with your life when
[10:56]you lose hope like that? I feel like that's what he's wrestling with.
[11:00]I think so. But I think that there is an injection of love. Yes.
[11:05]Comes later for him. And that injection of love, I think, is the thing that keeps him going. I
[11:12]think showed him a level of peace and a level of things. He knows he can't get it back,
[11:20]but his, but his heart, which, you know, from the time that he was a child, his heart,
[11:25]you know, trauma closed his heart. And then, and it had to. I think this injection of love,
[11:31]at least opened his heart. And maybe it's closing again. And boy comes in and tries to prevent that.
[11:39]So I think, but he's had the most unimaginably tragic life. And I just wanted to,
[11:46]it was important because again, when we want to show the type of trauma that someone like him is
[11:52]capable of causing what, what does it hurt people hurt people? And so here you have a broken person,
[11:59]you have a, you know, a, you know, somewhat of a dead person. And it kills people, you know, to me.
[12:06]And so about us. But then love comes in. And that leads to some of this great journey. And then
[12:15]deeper things that we don't want to give away because it, you know, the spoiler alerts.
[12:20]Yeah, no spoilers here. I feel like it's hard to write about some of this trauma and loss and grief,
[12:26]unless you've gone through something of this ilk yourself, right? You can't tap into those feelings
[12:32]in the raw way that I feel like the book shows here. And you don't have to answer this. But I'm
[12:38]just wondering, was there something in your life that you tapped into for this or something difficult
[12:44]I don't know where this came from? No, nothing. I mean, look, it is, it's a story telling.
[12:52]What we have to, the real tragedy here is that there are more horrific things happening in this
[13:00]day and age. Yes. You know, this is something that happened to Solomon when he was a child.
[13:06]That type of trauma is still going on and worse things. And people like you and I,
[13:12]we are so fortunate and blessed. We can never fathom truly what it means to go. But they have
[13:19]countries and here in America, they think people go through that you just go, how does this person
[13:25]survive? How does this person? And so that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to tap into someone that
[13:31]went through stuff that makes people question. How is he still standing? So, so before I judge him,
[13:39]and this is key, before I judge him, how do I think what would I have become or would I have
[13:48]even survived enough to become anything based on what this man and this boy as a boy when he's
[13:55]endured? So I wanted it to come from that point of view because we can never truly, and I just want
[14:00]it. I just, and this sounds weird. I wanted to honor the truth of that trauma and that
[14:10]just horrific state of being. Like, I didn't want to, I think it's an insult to
[14:18]Dilly Dalian around it and make it pretty or make it palatable and, you know, make it,
[14:25]it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to show us that this man has dealt with
[14:32]the worst in human beings. He has dealt with and in order to survive, he's had to become
[14:40]a part of that. And that's it. But I had to do it with no, I wanted to do no judgment
[14:48]presented as, as it is. I imagine it being, no matter what I put down, just think of some of the
[14:55]more horrific things that are, that happened in that time and it's currently happening and
[15:03]things that happened and even here in this country, but obviously this, these type of things
[15:08]happen a lot more and I think about the countries, but still, there's just some horrible, horrible
[15:12]things. And so I just, I just wanted to be truthful. So I just wanted to use my imaginations and
[15:16]be honest with that, even if it made people really uncomfortable, it should.
[15:23]I know this is sort of filled as a thriller, right? Like it's, but I don't even view this
[15:28]really as a thriller. I feel like this is a drama meets like in the way that Mitch album writes
[15:34]these allegories, right? The boys in the boat and there's usually a god element, but it's
[15:40]something that's supposed to make you think. And yes, these violent things happen, but I mean, not
[15:45]to say you can't call it a thriller, but I'm just saying like this is not just for a thriller
[15:50]audience. They will be happy, but this has a far wider message and reach than you might think on
[15:58]first glance. Let me just throw that out there. No, no, that's, and that's definitely intentional.
[16:02]You know, when I wrote my first novel laws of depravity, it was never designed to be a series.
[16:08]I just thought often, you know, I go on to become some great author and I was rejected,
[16:15]you know, repeatedly as most authors are. Oh, no. So that I, well, let me try it again,
[16:22]and maybe they'll get the second one. And then, you know, so then it became a series.
[16:26]But even then, the laws of depravity is more traditional thriller, but it still has these
[16:33]spiritual elements. It still came in. I think it was maybe like publishers weekly, they said,
[16:39]this is a thriller, a love story, and a spiritual quest. And so that's sort of defined,
[16:48]you know, how I wanted to approach work. And the other thing from the first book that I heard
[16:55]and was touched by was when readers would say, I don't normally like this type of stuff. I don't
[17:01]normally read thrillers, but I find myself, because there's more than the thriller aspect.
[17:09]Solomon, I think, takes it to the next level, because Solomon has been described as
[17:16]literary fiction meets through a literary thriller. You know, and someone just posted it or review
[17:26]this weekend. And they just talk about, you know, like, I just wept. I just cried so much.
[17:33]Those are descriptions that's normally tied to thriller. When people are, and so I've gotten a
[17:40]lot of reviews where people say, you know, you know, talk about obviously cried, obviously felt.
[17:44]So I don't, I see it as much more than a thriller. And there's tons of allegory here. And that's,
[17:49]I think the most rewarding way to read it is like a parable, because when you get to the end and
[17:56]you realize, oh, there were other things. And I leave these breadcrumbs, these cookies, Easter eggs,
[18:04]whatever you want to call them. I leave these things throughout the story. But when you get to the
[18:09]end, you start going back and reflecting, oh, wow, this meant more, but the diehard thriller fans,
[18:16]which is my base. I also want to satisfy them. And I wanted to write a book that that existed
[18:24]on two planes. So to speak, you know what I mean? So as a straight thriller, it all the thrills,
[18:31]the chills, the chases, the entry, the suspense, the gun fight, all of that. It's very satisfying.
[18:40]But for people that like other things and more, I wanted to satisfy them as well. And that's
[18:47]the duality of this book. Can we just back up to you just out of nowhere writing a novel?
[18:54]And trying to sell that. I mean, you had this whole successful career, right? You're on ER forever,
[18:58]coming to America, you're directing, producing, like doing all these things. And you're just like,
[19:03]I don't think that's enough. I'm just going to like try writing a novel. How did you even go about
[19:08]that? Had you always wanted to write a novel or you were just like, let me, let me give it a shot.
[19:13]Did you, how did you even go about it? There's a combination. I think at some point and it started
[19:18]14 years ago. I said, you know, I really want to give this thing a shot. I really want to
[19:24]try it. As a child, I did a lot of writing. And I ironically wanted to be a writer before
[19:31]when it had to be an actor. So I was, I would write poetry. I would write, you know, short stories.
[19:37]And so I was really intrigued. And then that went away. I discovered acting at 14 and never
[19:42]looked back. So that part went away. And so it's just interesting. This sort of
[19:49]cyclical, this thing that this, it just came back to at some point in the midst of all of this,
[19:56]I just as I decided I wanted to start directing and I started to, it's
[20:00]all storytelling. It's just how can I do other ways of, it's, to me, I'm not going to say
[20:08]they're the same, but foundationally in a way they're the same. It's story, storytelling is the
[20:16]foundation. There are disciplines and how one knows about it. And I've done that as an actor
[20:22]on the storyteller, as a director, as a producer on the storyteller. So this became,
[20:28]I've even, you know, I used to write lyrics for some of my lyrics. They were stories,
[20:36]you know what I mean? And so I've just, I've always been fascinated with storytelling. So that was like,
[20:40]you know, I'm going to try it. And I think, you know, something is important, you know,
[20:45]in speaking to your audience. I think our fear holds us back sometimes from our greatness
[20:53]or our greater potential. Let's put it that way. I think our fear, I think, I think,
[20:57]I think there are the zillion ways to talk your way out of it. I grew up in Hartford,
[21:03]Connecticut. I attended public schooling. And it wasn't the greatest education being honest.
[21:11]I had some wonderful teachers that cared about kids and cared about us, but it wasn't the
[21:16]curriculum wasn't the greatest. So that made it even more challenging. Who am I to think that I
[21:24]can write a novel, you know? And I think that's the kind of self-doubt. But that's,
[21:28]you can apply that to anything. Who am I to start a podcast? Who am I to start a new career at 50?
[21:34]Who am I to think? Who am I to as a divorcee to go do this? Who am I to start my company?
[21:41]We talk ourselves out of it because- Wait, were you talking about me?
[21:48]That was like full on me right there, but okay, go on. Maybe you were talking about you.
[21:53]Well, there is the, there is the quote, it's always mistakenly credited as a Mandela speech,
[22:00]but it actually wasn't, Mandela didn't use it. But as well, our greatest fear is not of our failure,
[22:05]but of our brilliance, of our, of our, of our, something to that effect. And I think that that's
[22:10]true. And so I think that after you go through a period of talking yourself out of it and
[22:15]you just go, I'm going to try it. And I will say, you know, I tried something, I tried my hand at
[22:19]something. Did not end up well. It was so my very first attempt at writing a novel. I, you know,
[22:27]I gave it to people to read. And evidently it was so bad that people attended, like I never gave
[22:33]it to them. It was fun. You know, I'm scratching my hair, I'm going like, you know, as an artist,
[22:43]particularly as a writer, what people don't understand is when you share your work with them,
[22:48]you stop breathing until they respond. There's nothing. And you're like, you don't know what they
[22:56]have going on in their life. You don't know what kind of delays. All, you know, they've had it for
[23:00]three days. They've had it for a week. They've had it for, and so you know, and people would just,
[23:05]and so, but here's the cool thing. I have a very interesting relationship with the word failure.
[23:14]I believe in it less and less. I think failure for a lot of times, I think failure is
[23:23]less things that haven't come to be yet. That is. So I do this thing. It's not received well.
[23:31]Then I get this cool story for that. Let me try this. Well, I salvage some of the things that
[23:40]did work well. And that became the basis of a beautiful love story in my first book.
[23:47]Now, here's something interesting. And we started talking about failure. The primary structure and
[23:54]story of Solomon is a quote-unquote failed screenplay that I wrote 20 years ago. Oh, I guess.
[24:01]Odd Angeline. And it was a hit man who was protecting a little girl.
[24:05]Fifth Angeline. And I'm sorry, Angelina. It's her name as well. But I couldn't
[24:12]didn't go anywhere. It just language. And so then when I started, and then I had no idea that
[24:16]the two would have. And so then Solomon started growing for me and growing and then demanding
[24:21]his own story. So I'm going to give him his own book. And then this failure, quote-unquote,
[24:27]from 20 years ago, came back as the perfect setup, the perfect foundation.
[24:34]So I have a, so now it's giving me that quote-unquote failure. I hate to keep saying quote-unquote,
[24:40]but it is, you know, because people say failure, failure, failure. I couldn't sell it. Nobody
[24:44]was interested in it. It was a failure. That has given me my greatest book to date. Like, Solomon is
[24:55]my personal figure. I move this book with those things to me. And I love all of my books. Trust me
[25:01]and each one has provided certain joys and accomplishments and pride across the book.
[25:08]Solomon isn't for me as a special. So my failure ended up becoming a blessing of my greatest
[25:15]story. So that's how I view the word thing. So I just wanted to forget it.
[25:19]No, that's so important. And by the way, like, nobody writes a novel first draft and gets it
[25:24]public. Like, you're supposed to have the first draft not be the best. That's how you learn how to
[25:28]write a novel. Then you can write a second novel, which might have a shot, but probably not even.
[25:34]Oh my gosh. Well, Eric, I am so impressed. I really enjoyed this book so much. It was so
[25:40]thought-provoking. And I haven't stopped thinking about it. And I can't wait to read the fifth one.
[25:44]When is it coming out? I'm writing it now. Okay. Three quarters of the way through. So my publisher
[25:52]publisher would love to have it in September, basically around Psalms. So I am
[25:57]racing to try to make that happen. But I also want to let it breathe. I let my books breathe.
[26:03]And so I want to get it done just to have it done. I'm not sure when I want to turn it in.
[26:09]But I do want this to come because this wraps up the entire series. And so, and fans have been
[26:18]waiting for this, but they actually thought the book four, which is Solomon, they thought that
[26:24]that what I'm writing now would have happened then. But I delayed it to do this, you know,
[26:29]slight departure with Solomon. And now people are like, wow, I love this. And now, but I know
[26:36]they're waiting for because they're so I wrap up a lot of questions, a lot of big questions.
[26:41]So I'm like this. I'm 80% done. And and now I'm I just want to have to stick the landing.
[26:47]Like I got, you know, when you end a series, you're just because otherwise people sometimes,
[26:52]even if they've been fans of it's like watching a show or anything, if the ending does it,
[26:57]you just feel like, oh, you know, and I don't want, you know, after five books, you know,
[27:05]this one. And so we're leading to, you know, you've read my style. My style of writing is
[27:12]to jump in basically in the first chapter and start sprinting and spread higher books as far as
[27:18]action and like, whoa, you know, so people. And this one is, and now I'm in the last. So it is a
[27:26]written downhill. And it is like, I'm, I have to catch my breath as I'm writing and making sure
[27:33]that. Okay, this is, you know, feeling it. So I, so it will be, it will be soon as soon as I give
[27:39]it to them, they'll do that thing in six months later. But I would love for it to come out relatively
[27:44]close. I don't, I don't want there to be a year between book four and book five. So I want to
[27:50]give it to them. So then hopefully it can come out six months after solving. That's, that's the goal.
[27:55]Well, take your time. Tie up all the loose ends. Your fans will wait. It will be great.
[28:01]And don't put so much pressure on yourself to make it perfect. It's going to be fabulous.
[28:05]I have no doubt at all. Congratulations. So excited. And it was lovely chatting with you.
[28:10]Oh, and I love this. I love how you started. I'll, I'll always remember that. So thank you.
[28:17]All right. Take care. Bye bye. You're like, thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi.
[28:23]Formerly, mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[28:27]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much.
[28:34]Oh, and bye the books.