Kara Kavensky on Finding Joy
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:27]I loved, like seriously, seriously loved.
[0:30]Tell me about Joy, a true story of love, regret,
[0:33]and second chances by Kara Kavinsky.
[0:37]Kara Kavinsky is a writer,
[0:38]corporate communications strategist, and podcaster,
[0:41]who loves sharing uplifting stories of others
[0:43]and, reluctantly, her own.
[0:45]She is the creator of the Corporate Communications Masterclass,
[0:48]remain relevant.
[0:50]Tell me about Joy as Kara's first memoir.
[0:53]And it's so good, because it's not just a memoir,
[0:55]but it is the story of a couple,
[0:58]I won't give anything away.
[0:59]You have to, you just, you need to read it.
[1:01]It's amazing, Kara has a great voice, a great writing voice,
[1:05]and this story of a World War II era couple
[1:09]is just really poignant and amazing.
[1:12]You can find Kara on most social platforms
[1:15]at Kara Kavinsky, and you can listen to her podcast,
[1:18]record scratch with Kara, wherever you listen to podcasts,
[1:21]which might be here because you're listening to mine.
[1:23]So go check out hers.
[1:24]Welcome, Kara.
[1:25]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Back
[1:27]to talk about Tell Me About Joy,
[1:29]which I am obsessed with.
[1:31]It's so good.
[1:32]It's hard to read without honestly feeling like,
[1:35]we all want to be your friends,
[1:36]and then also feeling like we've been a part
[1:39]of the coolest story ever that should be a movie.
[1:42]So the two of them combined, Chef's Kiss.
[1:45]Oh, well, I'm smiling so much.
[1:48]It's hard for me to even speak right now.
[1:50]Thank you so much.
[1:51]I am just so flattered.
[1:53]I'm so honored to speak with you.
[1:55]So, and I'm over the moon that you loved it.
[1:58]I really did.
[1:59]So tell listeners what Tell Me About Joy is about.
[2:03]Give the back story.
[2:04]Okay.
[2:05]So I have written over a thousand human interest stories,
[2:09]and so I've done thousands and thousands of interviews.
[2:12]And the first World War II veteran I ever interviewed
[2:16]was in man named Bob.
[2:17]He was a couple months shy of his 90th birthday.
[2:21]He had macular degeneration at this point,
[2:24]lived alone, his daughter in Son of Law were next door,
[2:26]and I went warm intro, sat down with him to speak
[2:31]about his adventures during World War II.
[2:33]He was a professional photographer,
[2:36]and he was trained at Paramount Studios in New York City,
[2:39]which at the time was owned by the U.S. Army.
[2:42]And he was just delightful.
[2:44]The first thing he said to me was
[2:45]when you get to be my age, everyone thinks you're senile.
[2:48]I say mess with people.
[2:49]And he just was so darling,
[2:53]and I just felt instantly attracted to him
[2:56]like an adopted grandfather in a way.
[2:59]And I found myself asking him after a three hour interview.
[3:03]I asked him if I could come back the following week
[3:05]and read him my rough draft.
[3:07]And he said, yes, of course.
[3:09]It was the first time I've ever asked that.
[3:10]That's not normal for journalism.
[3:12]And I, but I just wanted to see him again.
[3:15]I don't, I can't explain it.
[3:17]And I go back the following week.
[3:19]He was quiet.
[3:20]I thought maybe he wasn't feeling well.
[3:23]and we sat in his den and silence for what felt like
[3:27]an eternity.
[3:28]And he broke our silence by saying,
[3:30]I missed out on marrying the love of my life.
[3:33]I don't know if she's dead or alive,
[3:35]but I need to find her and ask her for forgiveness.
[3:37]And my heart just sank.
[3:39]And I became one with that chair and I couldn't move.
[3:45]And I found myself asking him, what did you do?
[3:48]And he said, I never asked her to marry me.
[3:51]And he sent me on a journey to find this woman he had not
[3:54]spoken of in 67 years.
[3:57]Her name is Joy.
[3:59]Unbelievable.
[4:01]So you have this whole story unraveling
[4:04]where you go on the hunt for joy.
[4:07]I don't even know how much to give away or not give away,
[4:09]but such an amazing storyline.
[4:12]But you also have your own storyline
[4:15]where you're in a really unhappy marriage
[4:18]to someone with narcissistic personality disorder,
[4:21]trying to figure out, how do I get out
[4:23]of this abusive situation?
[4:25]How do I recognize it for what it is?
[4:27]How do I find my own joy?
[4:29]And that was so powerful.
[4:32]Talk a little bit about that.
[4:33]And how do you feel?
[4:35]I know you somewhere you said in a funny way,
[4:37]like you reluctantly talk about yourself,
[4:39]but that was so powerful, that whole story and you
[4:43]and how totally vulnerable and open you are about it.
[4:46]And even down to like him coming into the bathroom
[4:49]or just all these micro moments,
[4:51]like tiny tiny little moments that we're like laying in bed
[4:56]with you with your eyes closed
[4:57]because he's like turning on the lights
[4:58]and he's traveling and you're so annoyed
[5:00]and I can like feel the irritation.
[5:02]Like all of those moments we are in your marriage with you.
[5:06]Tell me about that.
[5:08]Oh, well, that was easy and hard,
[5:11]both at the same time.
[5:12]So with a photographic memory,
[5:15]it's easy for me to recall all these moments
[5:17]and I've had to really work on the cancel clear delete buttons
[5:21]in my brain and but to share personal stuff
[5:25]was a long time coming.
[5:28]The process initially I thought,
[5:30]well, of course I'm going to write about Bob and Joy
[5:32]and in this non-engineery and couple
[5:36]and it's not a spoiler alert to indicate that I did find joy
[5:41]and I reunited them.
[5:43]The moment that I met Bob,
[5:45]I was in survival mode,
[5:48]it was just trudging through quicksand it felt like
[5:52]and the night before I met him,
[5:55]I just made this absolute demand of the universe
[5:57]that I needed something I could not go on one more day.
[6:01]And so in that snapshot of my marriage at that point,
[6:06]I have three kids.
[6:08]My oldest was getting recruited
[6:11]and at the top of her class like the whole stress
[6:14]of where to go to college
[6:16]and she ended up being a dual support athlete
[6:18]at Indiana University, my alma mater and just thrilling.
[6:23]And but I couldn't derail her.
[6:25]So I thought, well, I need to wait.
[6:26]And then the boys and what do I do?
[6:29]And and the former spouse was traveling a ton,
[6:33]which made it somewhat bearable
[6:35]and it was just, it was terrible.
[6:38]It was just absolutely terrible.
[6:41]And Bob and Joy provided this amazing example
[6:46]of what a loving relationship really looks like for me,
[6:50]which I did not have.
[6:52]I mean, all my parents are wonderful and but not
[6:56]in this really positive way.
[7:00]And so that was that was difficult to share initially
[7:06]because I also felt like I was alone
[7:08]and no one could relate to that.
[7:10]And then once I shared a standard autopilot argument
[7:16]with a Pilates client of mine,
[7:18]I own a Pilates studio at the time.
[7:20]She could totally relate to that.
[7:23]And that was when the floodgates opened for me.
[7:25]Well, well, you had a line about narcissistic people
[7:30]and it was something like never tell a narcissist.
[7:35]He isn't right, especially when he's wrong.
[7:37]Oh, yeah.
[7:38]I actually submitted that for copyright.
[7:41]The statement is a narcissist is always right,
[7:46]especially when they're wrong.
[7:47]Yes, that's even better.
[7:51]Did you know you were married to a narcissist
[7:54]before you spent all the time with your therapist, Melissa
[7:57]and you did a deep dive and all of it.
[7:59]When did you realize that this isn't just like,
[8:04]that he's kind of an asshole,
[8:05]but it's actually a thing.
[8:07]It was in therapy.
[8:09]There was definitely in therapy.
[8:10]And this was before it's such a prevalent term now
[8:14]and this was way before.
[8:16]That was really discussed as openly
[8:19]and I think it's dropped a lot in conversations now.
[8:23]But I didn't know what that was
[8:24]and I didn't realize the threads of that
[8:27]and maybe explain it in case people listening
[8:29]don't know what it is.
[8:31]Oh, well that's a whole conversation.
[8:33]Just like one sentence.
[8:35]Oh, one sentence.
[8:37]Someone who is lacking empathy so wounded
[8:41]from their own childhood that they are not
[8:44]like maybe fully emotionally developed
[8:46]incapable of thinking of others,
[8:49]not able to hear things that they don't want to hear.
[8:53]Now there's the list goes on.
[8:54]I mean, every time I see an article and online,
[8:58]it's like, oh, the topic characteristics,
[9:00]and I'm like, oh, I can list those really quick.
[9:02]Yeah.
[9:03]Oh my gosh.
[9:05]Well, when you wrote and reflected on your relationship,
[9:10]you were almost hard on yourself
[9:12]when you were looking back on how many times, for example,
[9:17]you let yourself sort of be intimate with somebody
[9:19]you didn't love, that you let yourself stay
[9:21]in a loveless marriage, that you were like,
[9:24]why did I do that?
[9:25]It was almost like a self punitive thing
[9:27]that by the end, you had reached acceptance
[9:31]and we're able to move on from that.
[9:33]But it's like through the course of the book,
[9:35]we were able to watch you process, like make peace with
[9:40]and go through to the next stage,
[9:42]which is really powerful for like a short book
[9:45]where that's not even the main storyline.
[9:49]Well, I thought I'm okay, like I now
[9:53]and I was really focused on becoming okay.
[9:58]And I wanted...
[10:00]to share that journey and let people know that it's possible to heal from that kind of abuse.
[10:08]Amazing. I just have to ask. How does your ex feel about this book?
[10:14]I don't know. Okay. You didn't have to get legal approval or anything like that to write about it or?
[10:20]Oh, I did not. Changing the name, there's nothing inflammatory. It's gone through a lot of
[10:26]legal process in this book. So I'm not concerned. Okay. And you also share some really personal
[10:33]information about your kids. How, especially Alex, tell me how she feels about it and she feels
[10:39]how she read the book. She's read. So Alex is my oldest. She has read the parts that concern her
[10:48]and everything in there was done with permission. Okay. Well, I mean, you portrayed the juggle,
[10:55]so to speak, right? Of the parenting piece, the work piece, the marriage piece, the, you know,
[11:02]physical exercise, which by the way, you show is like a huge lifeline. I wish I used it. I was like,
[11:09]well, maybe if I worked out three times a day, I would feel a little more calm too. But maybe just
[11:13]speak to that for one second. Just how the physical and how all the walking and Pilates and all the
[11:19]the things you do and treadmill and even the cursing, like how all this helps you. Oh, gosh, all
[11:26]the, the, the daily, yeah, right. Well, it's the daily schedule of having all of those elements for
[11:35]release of all of the stress and attention and everything that I was going through. And I don't
[11:41]work out that much anymore. I used to obviously, but it was really a coping mechanism of really
[11:48]needing to exert all of that energy and to just to cope honestly and to create, try and create as
[11:58]balanced as situation as possible for me. But that meant the physical exertion to overcome and
[12:05]help balance the emotional stress. Yeah. Well, well, I just know that there is somebody out there
[12:12]right now listening to this in their car and feeling like they are so trapped. And there's no way out.
[12:18]And I know that your story, tell me about joy, the book, this podcast. I just know I can feel it
[12:24]that it's going to help somebody. And I know that it wasn't an overnight thing for you. I mean,
[12:28]it took six years before you even could try to get divorced and you knew it was coming and you
[12:34]were emotionally preparing, but it takes a while sometimes, but it can be done even in the worst
[12:39]circumstances. And I just feel it that is so, so powerful. So thank you for sharing all that.
[12:46]Thank you. Thank you. When I was in a writing class, just to learn how to write about Bob and Joy
[12:52]and and figure this out because I'd not written a book before. And my friend Betsy Blankenbaker,
[12:57]who I was working with said, where's your story? And the second thing that she said immediately on
[13:04]the heels of that was you can help people. And that is the single only reason why I incorporated
[13:10]my story into this book and why it became a memoir. Yeah. Well, it would have been really interesting
[13:17]regardless because I love the other storyline, which I want to talk about. But this made it like
[13:23]just so powerful. I can't wait to hear what you end up hearing from readers after sharing all this
[13:31]it's one of the most detailed specific accounts of sort of the behind closed doors of it all
[13:37]and really beautiful. But anyway, on to Bob and Joy and World War II because you also have so much
[13:43]World War II history, but told in almost a colloquial way. So people who maybe don't know as much
[13:49]about World War II are like, I don't want to hear about World War II. These are like the most human
[13:53]moments that you portray the after effects for the people who fought. And I know you've
[13:58]interviewed so many veterans. And that's just like beautiful and amazing. Maybe speak a little bit
[14:03]to how you even figured out how to incorporate some of the history as the way that Bob and other
[14:10]veterans have told you about how to make that relatable and immediate and yet like so human.
[14:18]Because so many people write about war. I mean, what a big topic, right? But this was a very human way
[14:24]and obviously you've nailed how to do this. Well, thank you. It was really important to me to
[14:30]put that human face and that human experience to the war. And that's the only perception
[14:37]that I have gotten because of getting these firsthand accounts from people who are there
[14:42]and then doing research to support what they've shared with me from the background standpoint that
[14:48]they're all these historians. And I think I threw out like a disclaimer, like please give me
[14:54]some standard deviations of grace on this. And what people went through and the ability of their
[15:03]ability to be amazingly calm and have gone through so much trauma and then be so loving yet be able
[15:13]to share in detail, like these are permanent and brazen memories in their brain. And many of them
[15:20]were told not to talk about it ever and to hold that in. So when I am asking for their experiences,
[15:29]they light up, you know, or they're upset about but not upset like they're recalling friends who
[15:36]died or they're happy to share it, but it's still emotional for them. And the war had so many
[15:44]different facets to it. And there's endless stories that will still come out of it, I believe.
[15:51]And even though many, many, many of them are not left, there's only a handful that are still around.
[15:57]But just being able to make it approachable and something that people can relate to because
[16:02]they think that when something happened so far in the past, or it seems so vast and so huge
[16:06]and millions of lives lost, it's so hard to find that one that then, okay, I think I'm starting
[16:12]to understand what a little window into what people went through at that time.
[16:18]Well, it certainly gave me a new understanding despite how many books, history books, nonfiction,
[16:25]memoir, movies. I mean, anyway, it was really powerful. And I also feel like
[16:32]and I know you have now kids who are the age of the soldiers or have gone through that age,
[16:37]like for a long time when I would think about the soldiers, I was like, gosh, these kids are like
[16:42]babies, they were so young. How could this be? But now that I'm a parent of like a 19-year-old son,
[16:49]for example, thinking about him and all his friends going off to battle and that an entire
[16:55]generation did that and what the moms and the families went through, it's just like a whole new
[17:00]level of pain. Yeah, my oldest son is in the Air Force. And so writing this with him in that age,
[17:10]it's a different perspective. And at 25, which is his age now, he was old for that time,
[17:17]like, you know, your son in 19, 18, 19, that was the median. And it's astounding what they went
[17:26]through. And the patriotism and all of that from that era and there was a romantic, I think,
[17:34]you on it that a lot of people put, but it's also, you know, very weighted in trauma. Yes,
[17:42]unbelievable. Okay, let's go on to something upbeat, which is Bob and Joy. And their reunion
[17:48]after all these years, how the love can stay alive, even though they both had very happy, long
[17:55]marriages and lives and everything that sometimes you really just don't forget those loves. And
[18:00]actually you share your own love in the past with Toby. And oh my gosh, anyway, it's all about like
[18:06]the pads not taken. I feel like there's so much of that in this book. And what does that mean? And
[18:11]where does love go when the relationships aren't when that's not the path that was gone down? That
[18:18]didn't make sense. But, you know, right, those weren't the choices, you made different choices.
[18:24]Yeah, yeah. It was so lovely watching Bob and Joy together. And it was just magic every time I
[18:32]was with them and speaking with them and just listening to them and watching them interact.
[18:39]And there was such kindness and such tenderness. And what amazed me above all was that they
[18:45]saw each other, this 90-year-old and an 85-year-old, they saw each other as they were,
[18:52]you know, it was like 23 and 18. And because they're, you know, they're five years apart. And it's
[18:58]just amazing. And the love, the stories, and it was to them, it was like stepping into this magical
[19:08]portal where they were living and thinking and breathing in that space of where they were in the
[19:16]mid-late 40s and listening to the nostalgia and talking about like, you hear an I live in Indianapolis
[19:24]and they both lived here and seeing the places that they saw and the change. But yet in their eyes,
[19:31]everything was the same. And when Joy said to me, or they were sharing their story of how Bob said,
[19:39]she looks exactly the same. And she's like, oh, your eyesight is terrible. You know,
[19:46]adorable, adorable comments. And I really did my best not to feel or project anything ages.
[19:54]You know, but, and then when I was working with Ariel Curry at source box and she's like,
[19:58]they're so cute. They're so cute. I was like,
[20:00]I know. Let's maybe not be quite that way towards them, but it's hard. It's hard. They are just
[20:09]darling people. Oh my gosh. Well, I love how Joy was like, oh yeah. I had to make him
[20:14]slid it out at the beginning for like a wee, you know, he asked her to be, oh my gosh. It was just
[20:19]the cutest. And how they're shacking up and how he's calling her his girlfriend at the beginning,
[20:24]it was too much. I mean, their banter is priceless. Really, really priceless. Oh my gosh.
[20:31]Speaking of Indianapolis, I'm actually going to be there in October, by the way. I could,
[20:35]I'll send you a note after something like that. Yeah. Oh, I know. I will see you. I have,
[20:40]I will get out of that. Oh, yay. Awesome. For the library. Do you watch the middle? Have you ever
[20:45]seen the middle, which takes place? You know, I know that you mentioned that I want, I need to look it up,
[20:51]but there are so many shows that have been based in Indiana, like Stranger Things. Yep.
[20:56]The middle, there is some spinoff from, so anyway, there's so many that I'm like,
[21:02]oh, I gotta keep it. I literally accepted this event in Indianapolis because of the middle,
[21:08]which is based there, which I'm obsessed with, which by the way is, is filmed in LA.
[21:12]So I'm literally going to like, I'd place that they never even were just because
[21:18]they live there. But anyway, I will see you there. That's really exciting. Oh, my gosh. Amazing.
[21:22]So just on the writing front, oh, wait, I want to talk about record scratch as well.
[21:26]Tell everybody a little bit more about your podcast, which I listened to and you have the best
[21:30]voice. Oh, my gosh. You're like, oh, thank you. Talk about that and what listeners can find in
[21:36]your podcast. Oh, well, many years ago, pre pandemic, I started finding joy with Cara, a podcast.
[21:44]So here I've done all these interviews and I thought, well, it'd be great for my guests to share
[21:48]their story and their own words. And I can still write about them, but then they're sharing
[21:52]additional stuff. And it's people who have gone through like adverse situations or circumstances
[21:58]who have really made good choices throughout that process and turned lemons into lemonade,
[22:03]even if all their choices weren't great, they've still managed to learn from their experience
[22:08]and be able to provide healthy lessons for others. And then my four and a half years ago,
[22:15]my youngest son Jake died in a car accident. And I took me 18 months to find my voice. Again,
[22:23]I was just rendered just not functional and it probably took closer to two years to be.
[22:30]Thank you. And so I started back, I relaunched the podcast and the first person I interviewed,
[22:40]Karen Hellman, she had survived 9-11 in brand new stiletto heels late for work standing out on the
[22:48]sidewalk and then took her eight hours to get back home and on Long Island. But she became an energy
[22:54]healer. And I asked Karen if I could rerecord because when I said, finding joy with Karen didn't
[23:01]feel right. So I reread it because when you go through something like that and like losing a child,
[23:10]it feels like when I walk into a room, everything stops, people drop their forks. You can hear
[23:16]the needle scratch across vinyl. It's a literal record scratch moment. And I renamed the podcast
[23:23]record scratch to share stories of resilience. And which is what it was always about.
[23:30]And then I realized later as I was interviewing people in the first session or the first season of
[23:37]record scratch, I interviewed all my healers that helped me release the heaviness of losing a
[23:44]child. And I realized it's about finding joy. Oh my gosh, Karen, you don't even lead with this
[23:52]in the book. Like this could have been the whole book is losing a child. And I am just so devastated and
[23:58]sorry. Thank you. That is my next memoir. Okay. Are you working on that now? Oh my gosh. And we get
[24:07]to know everybody in this book so well. Yeah. That's why I couldn't read it actually because Jake
[24:12]still alive in the pages. So yeah, the audiobook is read by a wonderful actor, Gail Shallen.
[24:19]And I did record a couple segments of it. Just intro maybe the gratitude at the end.
[24:27]But there's no way I could read it. So how can you talk about joy when you have gone through
[24:33]unspeakable loss? How do you find the joy? How do you maintain even a smidgen of that when life
[24:40]feels like it's over? Well, they're initially I couldn't answer that question. I have, however,
[24:49]I have a very dear friend named Ruth Graves, whose son Stephen had died. And it's Stephen had a congenital
[24:58]heart issue and just a sweetest kid. My two older kids and I did karate with him and just darling.
[25:07]And it's Stephen's memorial service. I thought this kid could not have been more loved
[25:15]and had a life and he died when he was 18. And I used Ruth as my template and I thought she's still
[25:24]breathing. She's still moving. And that is what I was looking for. Like there's a, all my grief
[25:32]books or in a different room or else I could pull them. But I didn't want to read through anything
[25:38]that didn't have a parent losing a child. Like I need to know I'm going to be okay. And so I was
[25:44]looking for those mentors whether they are conscious of it or not. But I think that's why
[25:50]partially people write a book about that type of thing so that you know you're going to be all right.
[25:56]And I worked through so much when before when I was going through all the narcissistic abuse
[26:03]release and healing that when Jake died I did not want all of that heaviness at all. It was so much.
[26:12]And I thought I'm putting myself through a boot camp of healing and I probably did too much
[26:18]and too short of time. But it leveled out. It leveled out. And a lot of life is still left to live.
[26:27]Oh my gosh. Wow. Kara, you are so inspiring. You're so powerful and amazing and relatable,
[26:36]approachable and helpful. I mean there are so many, on so many levels. And I am just rooting for you so
[26:42]much. I really am. I loved your book just for the book but also just for you and very excited to
[26:49]meet you in person. And thank you for sharing yourself and your story and your losses and
[26:55]your hardships. I mean what a gift. What a gift everybody. Thank you Kara.
[27:00]Oh well thank you so much. Oh my gosh. All right. Thank you for coming on.
[27:06]Oh sorry to stop this like the most emotional moment.
[27:12]And I'll see you in New York on the 22nd. Yes. And that's the day before my birthday. So here
[27:19]we're talking right before yours. That night on the 22nd I'll be a bibliotech. Oh amazing. I've
[27:26]never been there. I've heard such good things. Oh I'm excited. Yeah. I think Gayle's going to do it with me.
[27:32]Gayle did the audiobook. She lives. She's an actor in New York. So what is that? Is that your
[27:36]pub day? What is your pub day? September 8th. Okay so to write. Yeah. So I'll actually be at
[27:42]Parnassus on the 16th. Okay. And a couple events like I'll be in Cincinnati on the 12th but then
[27:49]I'll be an Indianapolis 8th and 9th and then I'll be in New York. And other other other areas I'm
[27:55]going to release the book tour. Well I can't wait to become to your bookstore. I'm excited.
[28:04]I don't know when yet. I think you're going to do an event there? Yes. You're going to love too.
[28:10]Okay. All right. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.
[28:14]Hi. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi. Formerly momstone have time to read books.
[28:20]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[28:26]and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh and buy the books.