Elizabeth Castellano on the Pressure of a Two-Book Deal
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors.
[0:18]The best-selling and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and that the story behind it. Enjoy!
[0:26]I was so excited when I saw that Elizabeth Castellano had a new novel
[0:31]out because I loved her last book, Save Let's Left, which was a GMA
[0:36]book club pick. Her new book did not disappoint. It was so good and is called
[0:41]Proof of Progress. Here what we talked about.
[0:44]Welcome, Liz. Thank you so much for coming back on Totally Book to discuss
[0:48]proof of progress on novel congratulations.
[0:50]Oh, thanks. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
[0:53]Of course. I was so excited. When you rip open a box and you're like,
[0:58]Yay! A new book by Elizabeth Castellano.
[1:01]I loved Save Let's Left as you know. And I was so excited to dig into this.
[1:06]It's super different, but so creative. And there were so many chapters at the end.
[1:11]I was like, oh, Bravo. Well done. Perfect ending. Thanks.
[1:15]We've been so good to make both books. I really appreciate it.
[1:19]Oh, my gosh. Okay. Tell us.
[1:20]Tell us.
[1:21]What proof of progress is that?
[1:23]Okay. So proof of progress is about Maria Estereini.
[1:26]She's a be list actress comedian.
[1:29]In her 20s, she writes a book of funny essays. She has a fine time writing it.
[1:34]Everyone likes it. So when her publisher asks her to write another book, she agrees.
[1:38]And then the second book doesn't come as easily as the first one did.
[1:42]And when years into the process, she finds out her editor is having an affair with her husband.
[1:47]She puts a book in a drawer where it stays for 37 years.
[1:51]And that's where proof of progress begins.
[1:53]It's 37 years after Maria originally promised to deliver this book.
[1:57]She's 65 now. She's had a resurgence of fame.
[2:01]And her publisher has suddenly remembered that she's under contract.
[2:05]And they would like to see proof of progress.
[2:07]So that's the book. It's Maria's proof of progress.
[2:10]It's her best attempt to finally fulfill this contract and tell the story of her life.
[2:14]So was this inspired because you were having trouble with your second novel?
[2:18]Yes.
[2:20]So I wrote a signed two book deal and, you know, found out the worst part about a two book deal is that you actually have to write a second book.
[2:27]You know, they really want you to do it. They're not kidding.
[2:29]And I wrote the whole thing. You got made it to the last page.
[2:33]And then I threw it out throughout the whole book.
[2:36]And so, you know, for a writer, that sort of thing.
[2:40]I, you know, I needed, I think gave me a year to write another book.
[2:44]And so I needed a new character, a new idea, a new plot.
[2:48]And so the thought is, you know, I have to get in the car and start driving and change my name and start a new life.
[2:53]You know, and so that's where the inspiration came from.
[2:56]It was just me sitting at my desk thinking, how can I get out of this? You know, what would happen if I never handed this thing in?
[3:01]How long could I outrun a contract? You know, what would they do to me if I just never handed it in?
[3:06]So that was the beginning of the idea was somebody who just, you know, felt the weight of this.
[3:12]Wait, now I'm totally curious about the book that you tossed. Who was wrong with it? Like, why not?
[3:17]Yeah, not worse.
[3:18]Before I threw it out, of course, I went on your podcast.
[3:21]I'm sure I talked about your podcast and national television and everywhere.
[3:24]Told everyone about it. And then that's so smart.
[3:27]It was about Ireland and, you know, a few stories worked from it.
[3:32]But the plot, I was writing it at the same time that say what's left was coming out.
[3:37]And I found that very difficult to do.
[3:40]And so the plot just didn't work great. You know, it was an okay idea.
[3:44]The character was good.
[3:46]And at the end of it, it just didn't work.
[3:48]And so I was, you know, of course, I would have liked to figure that out halfway through, not all the way at the end.
[3:54]So I knew I had a few anecdotes, a few stories worked from it.
[3:58]There were like six or seven little stories that worked from it.
[4:02]The whole rest of it didn't work.
[4:04]And I thought, okay, well, these, none of these make any sense together.
[4:08]You know, they're somewhere from childhood.
[4:10]So they were just used as flashbacks and anecdotes.
[4:12]I was like, okay, this is what I have.
[4:14]And they were just random stories.
[4:16]And so I was like, can I write a book of little stories with that work?
[4:20]And can I get? And so then I needed somebody's whole life to, so it was really,
[4:26]I mean, if Harper Collins told me we lost all the copies of this, all the files and my computer crashed,
[4:31]I could never write this again.
[4:33]I don't know.
[4:34]It was just written chaotically just slotting things in.
[4:38]So, well, this book, it's like a worker of genius because it's original and funny.
[4:46]And you don't even understand that you're reading like almost like a parody of an author life until a few chapters in.
[4:53]Because you take, I don't even know if you're allowed to make the author's note fiction.
[4:58]I was like, can I do that?
[5:00]I don't think she can do that.
[5:01]I know.
[5:01]I talked to my brother on the phone.
[5:03]I sent him a coffee.
[5:04]And he said, well, I just skipped the author's note
[5:06]because I didn't want to hear whatever you had to say.
[5:08]And then you think, oh, I realized that's the book.
[5:12]Is the author's note.
[5:13]I had to flip back a couple of times.
[5:15]And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[5:18]I don't know if you're allowed.
[5:19]I did it.
[5:20]But yeah, it turns out, yeah, turns out, yes.
[5:22]Turns out, yes.
[5:23]So yeah, it's like this fake memoir.
[5:25]And it's her just putting all these stories of her life
[5:27]together.
[5:28]And so they're written in these small snapshots.
[5:31]So yeah, but it's so funny.
[5:32]I mean, you're sense of humor.
[5:34]Like, when she's working in the house,
[5:36]where's department at Blooming Hills?
[5:38]Oh, my gosh, just tell that story.
[5:40]So that's Maria gets a job in housewares in Blooming Dales.
[5:43]And they want her to push the look who said and the all clad.
[5:48]And she sees this set.
[5:50]That's like a bargain set, a revere wear.
[5:53]I forget how much it was, $129 or something.
[5:55]And she keeps suggesting this to all the people that
[5:58]are coming for their registries.
[5:59]And the buyers at Blooming Dales are getting furious.
[6:02]And then she meets one man, the first single man
[6:05]to come into Blooming Dales.
[6:07]And he's looking for everything.
[6:10]And so she helps him.
[6:11]And first, she starts with the revere wear.
[6:13]And he's pretending that he's still married to his boss.
[6:16]And so she helps him get all the stuff for his apartment.
[6:20]And then she pretends to be his wife.
[6:22]And then she just starts dating him for about a year.
[6:26]Oh, my gosh.
[6:26]But it's like the way you carry themes through these,
[6:30]I mean, they're short.
[6:31]They're like two or three pages each.
[6:33]Yeah, they're short.
[6:34]There's this one sharing where George
[6:36]has gifted a six-foot tall cigar store
[6:38]with an Indian from his uncle on Long Island.
[6:40]And you describe him early on as the type of guy
[6:44]who says you better believe it.
[6:45]You say George teaches a course in classical music
[6:48]at City College.
[6:48]And he has this friend Kenneth from the Art History Department
[6:51]who hangs around our apartment all the time
[6:53]and says, you better believe it in response
[6:54]to just about every question he has asked.
[6:56]That tells you so much about a person, right?
[6:58]Like just immediately I know who this person is.
[7:00]So I'm already kind of chuckling in recognition
[7:02]that like, oh, I can understand an entire person
[7:05]by that one line.
[7:06]And then you go on for just one more page.
[7:08]And then at the end, you say he calls George, well,
[7:12]I think you can imagine what he calls him.
[7:14]That's the end of the wood and Indian.
[7:15]That's the end of Kenneth.
[7:16]You better believe it.
[7:18]I'm so good.
[7:20]It's the things.
[7:22]Like, don't you feel like you must have chuckled yourself.
[7:25]Like, that's just the perfect last line.
[7:27]Yeah, these are all little stories.
[7:29]A lot of them are stolen from my parents, my family.
[7:32]I've heard these.
[7:33]There wasn't an Indian that was kind of passed around
[7:35]from my uncle and, you know, they wouldn't give it back.
[7:39]And, but yeah, I was trying to tell somebody's whole life
[7:42]just through the tiny moments and see if you can really
[7:45]get the big picture just from going into these ideas,
[7:47]from a minute detail.
[7:51]There's this other part.
[7:51]Can I read this section of climbing the ladder?
[7:53]I don't know if this will translate to podcasts
[7:55]because, but I'll spell it.
[7:57]Is that okay?
[7:58]Can I read this one?
[7:58]Yeah, yeah, there's a little bit of a little fight.
[7:59]Barbara and I are working on the book again, sort of.
[8:02]We've spent the morning sitting in my kitchen,
[8:04]eating lemon bars, and now we're taking a little break.
[8:06]We're in Macy's.
[8:06]We split up.
[8:07]She goes to the lingerie department on the sixth floor,
[8:09]and I stay on the main floor and look at the jewelry.
[8:11]I'm looking for a pair of gold knot earrings, K-N-O-T earrings
[8:15]toward my manager's wedding.
[8:17]This is what I say to the woman behind the counter.
[8:19]I'm looking for knot earrings.
[8:20]How about a necklace, the woman says?
[8:23]No knot earrings.
[8:25]Bracelet, what?
[8:26]No knot earrings.
[8:28]I put it back, I put a big emphasis on the word earrings.
[8:31]I mean, that will help.
[8:32]It doesn't, so I switch it around.
[8:33]I put a big emphasis on the word knot.
[8:35]That makes things worse somehow.
[8:36]Now she is nervous.
[8:37]She's looking at me while running her fingers along rings
[8:40]and bracelets and charms and pendants inside the glass case
[8:43]as if she's trying to gauge from my facial expression
[8:46]or she is getting warmer or colder.
[8:47]She lands on something.
[8:49]Have you considered a brooch?
[8:50]Yeah.
[8:53]And that absolutely happened with my mom.
[8:55]I was in Macy's with her and she is going through.
[8:59]And of course, I knew what was happening
[9:01]and just decided to let it play out
[9:03]and see what would happen.
[9:04]Oh my gosh.
[9:05]And then the first opening line that I like the best was
[9:08]something like, I have a sneaking suspicion
[9:11]that my marriage is over.
[9:12]Something like that.
[9:13]Yeah, right.
[9:14]Yeah, there's something.
[9:15]It's something like that.
[9:16]Yeah.
[9:17]And you say it in such a way where it's like, you're not worried.
[9:20]She's just like, oh, this might be happening to me.
[9:22]I'm my marriage might be ending.
[9:23]Right.
[9:25]And part of it is because she is 65 now, she's
[9:28]got distance from all these things.
[9:30]So it's told very matter of factly.
[9:32]She's not in it.
[9:33]It's written in present tense, which
[9:35]was different for me, but it just
[9:37]seemed to work better that way.
[9:38]At first, I started writing it in present tense.
[9:40]And then I realized, I was like, why am I doing that?
[9:43]And I went back and I changed it to past tense.
[9:46]And it just feels more urgent in present tense felt better.
[9:50]So yeah, that's my first thought with proof of progress
[9:54]was maybe I can do 10 essays.
[9:57]And that will be her memoir.
[9:59]And.
[10:00]I wrote the first one and I just happened to do all these little stories from the age she was
[10:06]nine when a tragedy sort of sets her life in a different direction till the present day and I just
[10:11]had these little stories maybe 15 of them and I said okay that's essay one and then I moved on
[10:16]to essay two and I couldn't really come up with anything. I tried a few different ideas and I didn't
[10:22]like them so it took me a couple of weeks to realize oh that first essay is the book and so can I
[10:28]stretch that 2000 words into enough words for a book but yeah it wasn't not written in order
[10:34]and just backwards and you know I'm not getting the impression that you like loved writing this
[10:41]it was under duress you know I just I just was trying to it was the whole thing say what's left
[10:50]I plotted it I said okay this is the midpoint and this is a turning point and this is an obstacle
[10:54]and this I just gathered up everything I each chapter starts with a verb which I don't even
[11:01]I I'm the only one that really notices them but um everyone was like we don't need the verb
[11:06]I'm like we have to keep them but I had a list of just verbs just trying to come up with little
[11:12]because there's really no extra words in the book you know there's no scene setting there's no
[11:18]uh transitions from one thing to another so to get enough words and so I felt like I was you know
[11:25]kindred spirit with Maria that oh my gosh you were both struggling yes buying baloney might be my
[11:32]favorite of the title of the chapter titles oh my gosh did you actually make this Irish soda bread
[11:39]yes that's my mom's Irish soda bread recipe which she hasn't shared with anyone and is very
[11:44]protective of it and I was like just give it to me I need it you know I just hand it over because
[11:49]I need some words here and so she gave it to me and a few weeks ago I decided to make it from
[11:55]the recipe in the book and I was like this doesn't taste right mom what so I don't know what she
[12:00]did I feel like she made me a fake there's some fake ingredient but it does work I won't test
[12:06]I won't test it you could test it but I feel like she might have switched something around
[12:11]but yeah that's her so all her friends are gonna be able to finally get that recipe that's such a
[12:18]funny idea that she would give you like a decoy recipe yeah I think she like yeah put in it I was
[12:22]like well why and she's like well let me just do it and then she made one it's perfect I was like
[12:26]what happened here it's hilarious so is the takeaway from this not to do a two-book deal with your
[12:33]publisher yeah I think so I think it's too too much more for me I think it's better to write the book
[12:41]and then and then sell it I felt I don't do well with a clock on me I think that was not some
[12:48]people do some people thrive with that but I felt like writing doing the edits and everything for
[12:54]the first book and dealing with all of that and then trying to write the second book was tough
[13:00]and so yeah so I don't know have you lost your love of writing itself do you love writing
[13:07]do you love writing at all is it what are you even doing yeah I do like writing I like the
[13:14]finished result I don't find myself just sitting I don't love the process of writing I like
[13:22]I mean that sounds like cliche having written but I do I like I think it's always been a way
[13:27]that I can express myself and I can say what I want to say and and get something across but yeah
[13:33]this I think I got I really had no idea what publishing was like before save what's left
[13:39]and it was you know I was thrust into it would save what's left and then I had to catch up and say
[13:44]okay wait I have to go back to just me and my room and just worrying about just the book
[13:50]and not get swept up in everything yeah so but yeah I just wrote something for some publication
[13:57]and said you know people say you have to sit at your desk and you know a lot of writers say that
[14:02]like that's your job you have to sit at your desk and no matter what even if you don't have an
[14:06]idea even if you can't think of anything you know you have to sit there I don't think so I think
[14:13]you can get out and walk around and think of things and that's you know and things will come
[14:17]to you more naturally when I have to really sit and force myself nothing really good comes
[14:23]out of that yeah so I do much better when I feel less pressure and I can just have things
[14:28]come to me and feel a little more free and so are you going to try that again or are you like
[14:35]no pressure let's just see if I end up writing another book yeah I think because I can I don't
[14:39]have a deadline or anything I can just naturally come to what I'm going to write I mean
[14:45]it did work in this case in that I wouldn't have gotten here without that first book that I
[14:50]threw out and all of that and or even not wanting to write the second book or feeling pressure
[14:55]I wouldn't have gotten this idea but well I
[15:00]It's just on a podcast,
[15:02]thoughts from a page with Cindy Barnett.
[15:04]And she was like, what are some of your favorite books
[15:06]that are coming out?
[15:07]She's like, because I am loving proof of progress.
[15:09]Have you read it?
[15:10]And I was like, I was like,
[15:11]I'm literally interviewing her this afternoon.
[15:13]Oh, that's funny.
[15:14]Yeah.
[15:15]So it is widely circulating and.
[15:17]Oh, good, good.
[15:18]Yeah.
[15:19]If you weren't an author, what would you want to do?
[15:23]I feel like I probably would have been happy.
[15:25]I really just wanted to answer the phones at NBC.
[15:28]This was my big dream.
[15:29]They wouldn't have me.
[15:30]And so that's why I'm writing books.
[15:32]They wouldn't let me just answer that.
[15:33]I just wanted to work at 30 Rock.
[15:35]I thought that would be great.
[15:36]But I feel like something in the music visit is something.
[15:38]I feel like I want to be like, Clive Davis.
[15:40]I want to like an A&R person.
[15:42]I love music.
[15:43]I love, you know, I was big into that as a kid.
[15:46]And so I like music.
[15:48]But something creative.
[15:49]Something storytelling.
[15:51]I think I'm always circling around that.
[15:53]That's all that.
[15:54]Yeah.
[15:55]I didn't plan on going to novels.
[15:57]I think that was something that I just knew.
[16:01]Well, this is something I can do on my own.
[16:03]And I can send it in.
[16:04]And it will be considered.
[16:06]That's very rare.
[16:08]You know, usually you have to have some kind of in or back door.
[16:11]And this novels are still a thing where you can write the whole thing
[16:14]and say, here it is.
[16:16]And someone will look at it.
[16:18]True.
[16:19]Yeah, very true.
[16:20]Amazing.
[16:21]For you, maybe when you were going through this
[16:24]perfect experience of writing this book,
[16:25]who are you reading other books?
[16:27]Like, what books do you get inspiration from?
[16:30]If any.
[16:31]Yeah, I love David Sudeiress.
[16:32]I was reading a lot of essay kind of books.
[16:35]I love Calvin Trillen.
[16:37]It's a very funny writer.
[16:38]Elizabeth Stroud is one of my faves.
[16:41]Yeah, a lot of Nora Efron, of course.
[16:43]And Maria Semple, all those people that have their funny,
[16:47]but they're saying something.
[16:50]You know, they're picking out a little truth
[16:55]and presenting it with humor.
[16:58]What advice do you have aside from not taking a two-book deal
[17:01]for aspiring authors?
[17:02]Yeah, I think there's just a lot of pressure
[17:06]that I don't think is needed.
[17:08]There's a lot out there that's you have to do this
[17:11]and you have to do that.
[17:12]And it is possible.
[17:14]It is possible to get a book deal.
[17:16]A normal person can get one.
[17:18]And you just, it is a case of tenacity.
[17:21]It is a case of you have to keep trying.
[17:23]And so I think that's something I didn't know going in,
[17:27]that it felt like, well, you hear all these statistics
[17:30]that you can't get in and it's one in a million.
[17:33]And you can get in.
[17:36]And so that's, and also, I mean, for me,
[17:41]I steal a lot from my family.
[17:44]And I'm also listening.
[17:47]I'm just nosy and I'm listening.
[17:48]I'm interested in people.
[17:50]And that's where I get a lot of material.
[17:53]And so when I see people sitting in waiting rooms
[17:56]or wherever and everyone is on their phone
[17:58]and nobody is talking to each other,
[18:00]you know, a lot of times I'll say something
[18:02]and people then want to talk, you know, we really do.
[18:05]And it starts a conversation.
[18:07]And that's where you get things.
[18:09]You know, if everyone is just isolated
[18:11]and focusing just on their thing
[18:13]and not interested in other people,
[18:15]it's very hard to come up with material.
[18:18]Very true.
[18:19]We should talk just so you can use it for your next book.
[18:21]That's right.
[18:22]Yes, use everybody.
[18:23]Yeah, exactly.
[18:25]Do you have an Annie in your life?
[18:27]I've had Annie is a bunch of different people,
[18:30]but I have had friends where they're,
[18:33]whatever the opposite of a fair weather friend is,
[18:35]you know, maybe they're a little rough around the edges,
[18:38]but they show up and they're there.
[18:39]And that's Annie.
[18:41]Annie is Maria's best friend.
[18:43]And well, she's almost a friend of me.
[18:45]And she's a constant in Maria's life.
[18:47]And that's really, I knew I wanted a female friendship
[18:52]at the heart of the book.
[18:53]And so that was, that was Annie.
[18:56]And I wanted to be an unconventional friendship.
[18:58]I wanted to be something where, you know,
[19:00]they're not just, they don't match perfectly.
[19:03]They're different people.
[19:04]But they, they're always there for each other.
[19:07]Would you consider writing Maria's first book?
[19:11]Oh, that's interesting, I don't know.
[19:15]Yeah, I wonder what that was.
[19:16]I feel like that was probably just, you know,
[19:20]more casual, you know, and she just thought,
[19:23]oh, okay, great.
[19:25]But it was that same feeling of,
[19:27]when there was no expectations on her,
[19:29]she just felt, okay, great.
[19:31]And then once it was, you know,
[19:34]you have to get this done, just think no.
[19:36]And the whole thing with Barbara and the buying baloney.
[19:39]Yes, that was a big part of it.
[19:43]She ends up with her, with her editor from a long time ago
[19:47]who took her husband and she ends up editing
[19:50]proof of progress because Maria is very forgiving.
[19:55]She's very forgiving character, she's very resilient.
[19:58]And so in that way, I liked writing.
[20:00]I like the character.
[20:02]Is Maria someone you would want to have dinner with?
[20:05]Yeah, I'd like to be more like Maria, I feel like.
[20:08]Yeah, more resilient, it just keeps marching on.
[20:13]A lot of things happen to her, but she keeps going.
[20:16]So true, oh my God.
[20:18]Well, Liz, thank you so much.
[20:20]This was so enjoyable.
[20:21]I read every word, like hung on every sentence,
[20:24]you're such a clever writer,
[20:26]and feels very like New Yorker-y.
[20:28]Are they accepting it?
[20:29]I feel like they should.
[20:31]Yeah, I don't have any heartache.
[20:33]I think, but very good, I mean, it's a very New York book.
[20:37]A lot of New York references, yeah.
[20:39]Amazing.
[20:40]Congratulations.
[20:41]Thanks very much.
[20:42]Thanks, Evie.
[20:43]OK.
[20:44]Go do something fun to celebrate these before Canada anymore.
[20:48]OK, bye.
[20:49]Hi, thanks, Evie.
[20:50]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi.
[20:53]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[20:56]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[20:59]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[21:02]and spread the word.
[21:03]Thanks so much.
[21:04]Oh, and bye the books.