Susan Coll on the Nonsensical Business of Publishing
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:25]Susan Call is the author of Word Salad.
[0:30]She is the best-selling author of eight novels,
[0:33]including The Litterati, Real Life, and Other Fictions,
[0:35]and Bookish People.
[0:36]Her other books include The Stager, Acceptance,
[0:39]Rockville Pike, and Karl Marx.com.
[0:42]Her work has appeared in The Washington Post,
[0:44]The New York Times, NPR, and many other places.
[0:47]Her novel Acceptance was made into a television movie
[0:50]starring Joan Kisek.
[0:51]Susan Call is the recipient of multiple grants
[0:54]from the DC Commission on the Arts and Humanities.
[0:57]She works as an event consultant at Politics and Pros Bookstore
[1:01]and was the president of the Penn Faulkner Foundation
[1:04]for five years.
[1:05]She teaches workshops at the writer center
[1:07]in Bethesda, Maryland.
[1:09]Enjoy.
[1:10]Welcome, Susan.
[1:11]Thank you for coming on Totally Book
[1:12]to talk about Word Salad.
[1:14]Congratulations.
[1:15]Thank you.
[1:16]I'm so delighted to be here.
[1:17]I thank you so many for having me.
[1:19]Oh my gosh.
[1:20]As a bookstore owner, this was the most fun book to read.
[1:24]It was the ultimate behind the scenes
[1:26]in the window as obvious downstairs type of book
[1:30]where you pull back the curtain
[1:31]on really everything to know about working in a bookstore.
[1:35]And it is so fun among other things.
[1:37]So thank you.
[1:38]I'm glad to hear it all up for you as a bookstore owner.
[1:40]Also, I did an event at Cebis in Santa Monica.
[1:43]And I love your store.
[1:44]So thank you.
[1:45]A lot. Thank you.
[1:47]Oh, thank you.
[1:47]And I know that you have worked at Politics and Pros
[1:51]raised that where you get all your inside information
[1:54]Let me hear it.
[1:54]Well, the bookstore in this book
[1:57]and then bookish people, which is the same bookstore,
[1:59]both not Politics and Pros, but it's true
[2:04]that I've worked there on and off for about 15 years now.
[2:08]So a lot of inputs into this story.
[2:14]Why don't you tell the Snare's what Word Salad is about?
[2:16]Word Salad's about a young woman, 29 years old,
[2:20]who is from DC, but has been living
[2:23]in Los Angeles and she comes home
[2:26]because her mother's not well
[2:29]and she's gonna help care for her.
[2:32]And she winds up working in her neighborhood bookstore,
[2:34]but she's kind of a misfit.
[2:36]She's a former economics major.
[2:38]She's not a very bookish person.
[2:41]She's well read.
[2:42]She's very smart, but she has trouble
[2:46]fitting in with her colleagues.
[2:48]And she sees the world a little differently
[2:50]than those around her.
[2:52]So she's coming into this as something of an outsider
[2:56]and trying to make sense of this nonsensical business
[3:00]of publishing.
[3:01]She doesn't understand publishing math,
[3:03]or why none of us really did.
[3:06]Meaning, I was gonna say, either do I.
[3:08]That's great.
[3:10]So that's the premise.
[3:12]And then on her, the book begins
[3:16]when she is given a new colleague
[3:19]that she is meant to train to help her
[3:22]and this is an older woman who's coming back
[3:25]into the workplace after her child goes off to college
[3:27]and has zero administrative skills, which is fine,
[3:31]but she also doesn't really care to learn much.
[3:34]And she's larger than life and sort of Matilda's opposite
[3:39]Matilda's the protagonist.
[3:41]So it's about their dynamic.
[3:44]Which was hilarious.
[3:45]I was like laughing at the part about her bringing her dog
[3:48]and just being like, well, I already have the dog here.
[3:49]So it's just gonna be fine.
[3:51]And then like pulling out the cubs for the water
[3:55]and like all the accoutrements for the having a dog
[3:57]and just like settling in as she was so funny.
[4:00]Sage is like the ante hero or I don't even know.
[4:03]But I always like to have an animal in my novel as well.
[4:08]So Janet just kind of show, you know,
[4:11]introduced herself into the book so funny.
[4:13]And I even love how she's asking.
[4:16]She's like, wait, so employees can't have dogs,
[4:18]but customers can have dogs.
[4:20]Like how does that make sense?
[4:21]Right.
[4:22]I don't know what it's like.
[4:23]I don't know what it's like.
[4:24]I don't know what it's like.
[4:24]I don't know what it's like.
[4:25]I don't know what it's like.
[4:26]I don't know what it's like.
[4:28]Oh my gosh.
[4:29]And even just all the fun characters that you have in the store
[4:33]and the people who come to the events and the IKEA chairs
[4:36]and setting up.
[4:37]And of course, you open with this very funny scene
[4:41]of sort of recreational photographer
[4:44]who is always in the stores or sort of budding noses,
[4:47]I should say, with sort of arrogance author who they clash.
[4:55]Let's just put it that way.
[4:57]They clash in a big way and blood comes out.
[5:00]as a result of other things. Talk a little bit about how you make, how you think of the scenes.
[5:05]These really funny scenes as you're going through the the minutiae of the day, which is hilarious.
[5:11]But like, how did you come up with that? Where did I come from?
[5:15]I'm not sure entirely where the, you know, that particular scene came from, but some of it is
[5:21]what, hey, what could go wrong here? And I think of all the things that could potentially go wrong.
[5:27]And if you think about author events and, you know, somebody just disruptive. So in this case,
[5:35]I had a photographer who's just very enthusiastically snapping photos with this old Soviet equipment
[5:44]that she picked up at a flea market. So it's really, it's not like a quiet iPhone. It's very
[5:49]in your face. She sets up a tripod and big lights. And, you know, the scene, I try to think
[5:56]in scene. I don't have any formal writing background other than just sitting down and writing,
[6:02]but I have learned and try to teach my students when I teach workshops to really try to think
[6:10]in scene each chapter is a scene and that helps me visualize what I'm writing. I also try to really,
[6:19]because I can't paint, but I wish I could paint. I sort of see all of this in color and in
[6:26]vivid scenes. And that's what I'm trying to capture on the page.
[6:31]Well, speaking of color, you also have Matilda see the world in colors. And I know that this is
[6:36]actually a thing. What is the synesthesia? What is it called? Yeah, synesthesia. She, you know, it is a
[6:42]thing. There are different forms of it. I'm not an expert, but there are people who see numbers
[6:49]and letters when they're spoken. And that's just their natural way of perceiving the world.
[6:55]I've heard stories of people who see the world that way and didn't know that it's
[7:00]unusual until it comes up in conversation. And I have, I'm not, I don't have synesthesia,
[7:08]but I have a little tiny bit of that sometimes seeing sounds. And as I was in the midst of writing
[7:15]this book, there was an alarm went off in a hotel where I was saying. And I could see this alarm.
[7:20]And I realized that that needed to be written into the book. And so Matilda sees the world this way.
[7:30]And she's also, although she's an economics former economics major who is on her way to
[7:35]possibly getting her MBA, she does have this very creative side. And she had thought that she
[7:42]wanted to be a painter. Her mother was a very accomplished painter. And her mother was
[7:48]sort of dismissive of Matilda's talents. And all it took was a comment or two to just shut
[7:55]Matilda down. And now that her mother's past, and she's seeing colors, she is inspired by this
[8:05]event that she and Sage are tasked with putting together to re-engage with that side of her brain.
[8:13]And she also, her whole brain lights up when she sees Myra Kalman's book women holding things,
[8:21]which again, you know, that's very personal to me. I'm in love with that book and with
[8:27]all Myra's paintings. So there's a lot of different things going on in the book with the bookstore
[8:33]painting. And then this crazy event that she is tasked with putting on, which I can talk more
[8:41]about if you'd like. No, that was so interesting. I dugured that when I read Myra Kalman, who I
[8:47]also adore. And I've had on the podcast. And I will find that episode. I will, I'll send it to you
[8:54]after. But I just wanted to read if I can find it. Yeah. Okay. Can I read this one passage about
[9:01]the economics of the store and just all this? The question of how this store state of float
[9:05]given that thin margins on book sales was a puzzle that needed solving and not I needed to crack.
[9:10]As a former economics major and possible future MBA, which you were just saying, Matt,
[9:14]I wanted to be helpful to the store's bottom line. And I was determined to better understand the
[9:18]mysterious business of publishing. Why did one book succeed where another similar book failed?
[9:23]Why did people flock to see one author and not another? By what determination did they come
[9:28]to an event and either purchase or not purchase the book? How did other factors, such as the
[9:32]time of day or location or weather effect turnout? Sometimes people attended even amid torrential
[9:37]rains. Other times they did not. Also, and perhaps more to the point of the particulars of my job,
[9:42]why did people bother coming out to hear an author speak at all when anyone could just stay
[9:47]home and read their book and then find videos of the author online? Oh my gosh. Please discuss.
[9:54]I think about all of these things. Well, I think about all of these things myself every day.
[10:00]this morning, I woke up to an email about an author. We're in the midst of scheduling an event
[10:04]for this fall with the public is saying this is going to be huge. She's selling out, you know,
[10:10]1400 seed arenas. So we didn't think that was going to be the case. So it's I don't I don't
[10:18]know. Wait, who is that author? Well, let's go after you after. Yeah, I mean, I find it endlessly
[10:27]fascinating, the whole world of publishing. And, you know, I've been working in a bookstore in the
[10:34]events department for more than a decade. And I've published this is going to be my ninth novel.
[10:41]And I still don't fully understand how a lot of this works. I don't think anybody really does.
[10:50]I think I mean, we all hear people say, and you would know more than I would as a bookstore on our
[10:56]but, you know, word of mouth and just sort of catching catching on fire through readers is really
[11:03]the answer. But I don't think anybody really knows. You can have authors and a publisher spend a
[11:11]gazillion dollars trying to get a book out there and it won't necessarily succeed. So I find that
[11:18]interesting and also funny. I was at a book conference, one of the regional book conferences
[11:25]about two weeks ago. And I heard a book, one of the reps talking about a whole new sub genre
[11:31]of fiction that everybody's reading, having to do with role playing, literature, and
[11:37]using terms I've never heard even though I would think that I would know these. So I just find it
[11:43]really an interesting and an interesting business. And I love it too. I love it. So oh my gosh,
[11:51]I'm right there with you. And even the point of like what is it? I mean, I guess it's just
[11:57]after hearing an author, how much do they want to hear more? But that notion of like we had this
[12:03]fabulous event and it was laughing and clapping and like totally engaged, but we sold eight copies
[12:09]or something wide. Why does that happen? I don't understand. Like, I don't know. So and I get those
[12:16]emails after each event, if I'm not there, like this is how many people came and this has
[12:20]any books. So like, why is that conversion so low? Or why is it so high? And like what happened that
[12:25]day? It's a mystery. Right. And I see those numbers every night as well, same set of questions. And
[12:32]then you know, you know, you have to try to guess how many books to order and how many chairs to set
[12:38]up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm like living in this world. And so funny. And like just goosebumps
[12:46]to see it so accurately portrayed. I mean, I'd love my booksellers and I love my stores not
[12:51]anything like this store, but just some of the thing. I mean, it's just hilarious. Well, just
[12:56]I love all of my colleagues now and store and all of these characters as well. So it's really
[13:03]meant as a love letter to the whole business. And there is also that part. And I know you
[13:09]referenced this, you know, briefly, but Matilda, like not fitting in and hearing when people are
[13:15]like, well, are you going to that thing tonight? And she's like, well, what, what thing tonight? And
[13:18]what are they talking about? And am I, you know, was it because I didn't engage enough because
[13:22]my mom was sick? And did I miss the boat on being part of this group socially? And can I get back
[13:28]in and do I even want to go? And like all of these thoughts speak to that because that is far
[13:32]beyond bookseller land. That's just like corporate culture or college culture or whatever, right?
[13:39]Just the out group feeling and not not knowing really how to insert yourself. Yeah.
[13:44]Well, I, you know, I was trying very much to create a real character in Matilda and somebody who's
[13:50]just a little bit outside the workplace culture. And I think I have felt that myself from time to time
[13:58]because I'm older than your average bookseller. And I was even when I started this job. And I
[14:04]tend to forget that sometimes. Like, oh, you know, I'm not 25 years old. But, you know, it's fun and
[14:12]fun to kind of watch that whole world, but also be a little bit outside of that world. So I
[14:18]think that's how I was able to understand or try to understand someone like Matilda who is just
[14:26]coming at this as a little bit of an outsider. So interesting. And I know you've been involved with
[14:32]Penn Faulkner and all that. Speak about that a little bit and tell listeners who might not know much
[14:37]yeah, Penn Faulkner is the best known probably for the Penn Faulkner Prize for fiction. And it's
[14:44]a foundation that's been around more than 40 years. It originally had the relationship with
[14:51]kind of America, but that's no longer strictly the case. So it's a small nonprofit in DC. And
[15:00]do public programming, they do the prize, they do the malamored prize for short story and they
[15:08]more recently have started to administer the Penn Hemingway award and it's just it's a great local
[15:16]organization that supports fiction and I was the president for I believe five years. I'm no longer
[15:23]on the board but I'm an emeritus member and still involved with that so yeah there's there's a lot
[15:29]of great literary things in Washington DC which is another thing I've tried to capture in my last
[15:36]we're pretty much all of my book said in Washington or the local suburbs and there's such a nice
[15:44]literary community here that you know I want to try to capture in my work and it's also it's a very
[15:53]supportive environment. Have you been to Planet Word in DC? I have. I love Planet Word. I love
[16:00]the Planet Word. Yeah I guess. That's what a fun place for book lovers story lovers word love.
[16:06]It is. Yes. A great museum of only a few years old and it's sort of a museum of the word is
[16:14]exactly the interactive activities. So you mentioned you sort of taught yourself how to write which
[16:20]essentially we're all really doing. I mean there is no you can't someone else can't exactly
[16:24]teach you what to do. They can only give you guidelines you know which obviously you're giving
[16:28]out yourself but speak about how you got started as and how you got to be a published author versus
[16:34]just someone teaching themselves how to write and how that whole evolution has been. Yeah we'll
[16:39]like probably every writer I was an avid reader as a kid I love to read and I knew I wanted to
[16:47]write. I worked on the college newspaper. I kind of came out of that time in my life floundering
[16:53]a little bit. I had my children very young and sort of missed the whole first wave career part which
[17:02]is probably why I'm still working in a bookstore at this stage of my life. But what I could do is
[17:07]write and so I just erode a lot of fiction. I did some freelance journalism and just kept sending
[17:16]things out in the mail and getting you know rejections for my early attempts at short stories
[17:22]and probably terrible poetry. But I was determined to get something through and when I finally
[17:30]sold my first short story I said that's it I'm gonna write a novel and I was living in India
[17:37]at the time and so it was like a whole amazing landscape there to write about and I almost got that
[17:46]novel published it was one of those heartbreak situations where I found an agent and she shopped it
[17:53]around in London and I just couldn't I had a bite and you know it fell apart the whole sob story but
[18:00]I said to myself I'm gonna try this one more time I'm gonna write another novel if I can't sell
[18:06]that and go back to school and get my masters in teach and you know I always have a backup plan
[18:12]I still have a backup plan and so I managed to get that that published and you know every single
[18:19]book has been its own journey I don't take any of this for granted publishing is very tough
[18:26]and it's very increasingly numbers focused and I just feel like I've been really fortunate to
[18:36]still be publishing I don't quite know how that's even happened but I'm really grateful and
[18:42]does what you've learned through your time in the bookstore and all your previous books
[18:48]what do you do with all that information when you sit down to write a book do you think about
[18:51]the audience at all do you like you know that's a great question you know I actually try not to
[18:59]and I when I'm at work and looking at other people's books and trying to make evaluations
[19:06]I try to I just use a different part of my brain that's sort of the commerce part of my brain
[19:13]and I try to separate that from the craft and the sort of joy of writing because I think
[19:20]if one thinks about that too much I'm not gonna write I mean it's sort of this is a kind of
[19:27]silly analogy but I do a lot of yoga and I notice like if I'm trying to balance and I look at
[19:32]the person next to me I'll tip over and it feels this similar with writing just I do what I do because
[19:39]I have to and I love it and I'm fortunate enough that I'm able to still pursue this passion
[19:47]but if I start looking at this person in their sales or the number of people that you know show up
[19:54]for an event or their social media it just you start to go a little get get sort of outside
[20:00]of that, the mindset that you need or that I need to just keep on doing my work.
[20:06]So I really try to separate it and one thing I've found about working in a bookstore
[20:12]is these books that come in and go out there just inventory.
[20:17]And in a way that takes the pressure off, you know, they could be, they are books, but
[20:22]they could also be cartons of Nike sneakers, you know, like for us as writers, it's
[20:28]so important.
[20:29]But at the end of the day, it's not really that important.
[20:32]It's just something that comes in on a UPS truck and goes away eventually, even Stephen
[20:40]King eventually, you know, comes off the shelf.
[20:44]So I try to look at it that way.
[20:46]I love that yoga analogy, like that is such a good one.
[20:49]I'm going to reference that really good.
[20:52]Basically, keep your eye on your own page, right?
[20:53]Same thing.
[20:54]Right.
[20:55]Yeah.
[20:56]Maybe.
[20:57]Are you writing another book or is it done?
[20:58]That's a good question.
[20:59]Because this is the first time in a very long time that I'm coming up for air and just
[21:06]taking a moment to think about it.
[21:07]I have, I have three different ideas brewing and sort of taking it easy this summer.
[21:14]I have a lot of family stuff happening this summer.
[21:16]So in September, I will sit down and start to work on something.
[21:22]I do have another book, a Jason.
[21:26]Idea in mind, but I also have something completely different that I might want to try.
[21:31]Awesome.
[21:32]And did I see on social?
[21:33]You have a new grandchild?
[21:34]Is that right?
[21:35]I have so many new grandchilds.
[21:36]Ah.
[21:37]Yes.
[21:38]In fact, one of them is here upstairs right now.
[21:41]So yeah, it's been a really busy summer, both my daughters and my stepdaughter.
[21:46]I'll have children this summer.
[21:47]Oh my gosh.
[21:48]Congratulations.
[21:49]It's a life.
[21:50]Yeah.
[21:51]Wow.
[21:52]That must be really fun.
[21:53]Yep.
[21:55]I was with my daughter, my 13 year old at the pediatrician the other day, and I was looking
[21:59]around.
[22:00]And I was like, you know, like, soonish, I'm not going to be coming back here all the
[22:04]time, right?
[22:05]Yeah.
[22:06]If I, what if my time here is coming to an end and she's like, well, you can come back with
[22:09]my kids and I was like, oh gosh, am I going to start all over?
[22:16]Possibly.
[22:17]Possibly.
[22:18]I know.
[22:19]God willing.
[22:20]Anyway, book congratulations on that.
[22:22]Susan, thank you so much.
[22:23]This has been great.
[22:24]You're such a funny writer.
[22:26]I mean, seriously.
[22:27]Thank you.
[22:28]Really great.
[22:29]And really means a lot hearing that from a bookstore on her.
[22:31]So yeah, you have a really great writing voice, really, really great.
[22:36]Thank you.
[22:37]Great.
[22:38]Well, thank you.
[22:39]It's a nice to connect.
[22:40]Thank you.
[22:41]Rest of your summer.
[22:42]I'll see you soon.
[22:43]You do.
[22:44]Okay.
[22:45]Bye.
[22:46]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly momstone have time to read
[22:49]books.
[22:50]You loved the show.
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[22:57]Thanks so much.
[22:58]Go and buy the books.