Maria Shriver and Zibby Owens on Life's Chapters and Forging New Identities
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:26]On October 1st, I had the immense honor
[0:28]of doing an in-person event at Zibi's bookshop
[0:31]with the one and only Maria Shriver.
[0:34]I have been a fan of Maria Shriver's forever,
[0:37]but never more so than in what she has been writing
[0:40]for her newsletter called The Sunday Paper,
[0:42]which if you don't subscribe to, you should.
[0:45]She writes with openness, authenticity, heart, wisdom,
[0:50]and she also did so in her book, I Am Maria,
[0:53]which was amazing.
[0:54]It's poetry talked about her past,
[0:57]how she is, who she is today, betrayal so much,
[1:02]and she did it in poetic form,
[1:03]which was beautiful, interspersed by more expository writing.
[1:07]I highly recommend you read it.
[1:09]The two of us sat down in front of a packed room
[1:12]to talk about both my book between chapters,
[1:15]which she read and had detailed questions prepared about.
[1:18]I was bold over by this and also her book,
[1:21]but she did not want me to ask her all the questions
[1:24]that I wanted to ask about her book.
[1:25]She wanted it to be more of a dialogue.
[1:27]So that's what it was.
[1:28]This was one of the most meaningful conversations
[1:31]I've had in my career, I would say,
[1:34]and I hope that you all enjoy it.
[1:37]I know that there are things she said,
[1:38]I have not stopped thinking about.
[1:39]Once again, I want to welcome everybody here to your house,
[1:43]and I have to say several people said to me,
[1:45]oh, I saw that you're interviewing Zippy Owens,
[1:48]Zippy's bookstore.
[1:50]I didn't know you two were such good friends.
[1:52]I said, actually, I've never met Zippy.
[1:54]And they're like, well, why are you doing that?
[1:56]And I was like, that's a really good question.
[1:58]Why am I doing that?
[1:59]I said, well, she asked me to do it.
[2:02]And normally, I just usually say no.
[2:06]And not for any reason, just I'm trying to focus my time,
[2:09]focus my energy.
[2:11]But I started to reflect and I thought,
[2:14]you know, Zippy has been such a great supporter
[2:17]of everything I've done.
[2:18]The books that we published through the open field,
[2:21]the Sunday paper.
[2:22]And she was a supporter without knowing me.
[2:25]She didn't ask if she could support the work that I was doing.
[2:29]She just supported it.
[2:31]And I thought, you know, how rare is that, actually?
[2:34]How rare does somebody that you don't know just decide
[2:37]to put up a shelf and say, these are books
[2:40]that Maria Shriver has published.
[2:41]I want you all to know about it.
[2:43]And I walked and I was like, wow, wow, who is she?
[2:45]That's so nice, you know?
[2:47]And so I thought I want to be here to support you
[2:50]with this book because you asked me
[2:52]and you supported me without, you know, me asking you.
[2:55]So I kind of thought that that was a full circle moment for me.
[2:59]And I also really love this book.
[3:01]And I think so.
[3:03]I'm glad to be here.
[3:04]Glad to be talking to somebody who laid it all out,
[3:08]juice and all, as Kyle said, in this book.
[3:11]And I think that for those of you, I know everybody has the book.
[3:15]But for those of you who haven't read the book,
[3:17]Zippy goes through kind of her life and life.
[3:20]I think that resembles so many of the things
[3:22]that so many of us deal with, right?
[3:24]Whether it's loneliness, shame, judgment, children,
[3:28]divorce, the whole thing.
[3:29]And you kind of lay it out in full view.
[3:32]You put your dirty laundry out there.
[3:34]And also your, you know, misgivings about yourself
[3:38]and what you've been through.
[3:39]You put your faith out there on the line.
[3:42]And I thought, well, this deserves a conversation
[3:44]and this deserves to be unpacked.
[3:46]Because I think we're all in many ways unpacking our own lives
[3:49]and trying to find other people that I always say can be guides
[3:54]so that we feel less alone.
[3:55]I think that's really what the Sunday paper
[3:57]is really all about, what the books that we published
[3:59]from the open field are all about, is,
[4:03]and it's really what, in so many ways,
[4:05]my whole ministry is about.
[4:06]It's kind of letting people know that they're not alone
[4:09]with whatever you're dealing with.
[4:11]Someone else has done this.
[4:12]And the people worth listening to are people
[4:14]who look at their lives, take lessons from it,
[4:17]and really want to share it.
[4:19]And that's kind of across all areas, as I say, of human endeavors.
[4:23]And I call those kinds of people architects have changed.
[4:25]They're people who go, okay, this is my lesson.
[4:29]Instead of keeping it to myself or making somebody else
[4:31]feel shame or judgment or alone
[4:33]in between chapter moment, I'm going to share
[4:36]with the hope that they don't feel that way.
[4:38]So that's what this book is about.
[4:40]And we'll kind of, we'll talk for about 20 minutes
[4:43]and then we'll open it up for other people
[4:45]who might be in between a chapter
[4:47]or who might be trying to start a new chapter
[4:50]or who can't figure out what chapter they're in.
[4:52]Which, yeah, which is probably a lot of us.
[4:56]So what chapter are you in, Zebi, right now?
[4:58]You just turned 50.
[5:00]I did.
[5:01]Thank you.
[5:05]Oh, right, this moment I am in a gratitude chapter to you, Maria, thank you so much for
[5:09]doing this.
[5:10]I am so, I have so much respect for you.
[5:12]I support you because what you put out into the world is authentic, real moving, helpful,
[5:19]I mean, and not just what you published, but what you write yourself.
[5:23]Like, I read those notes.
[5:24]I'm sure other people here do too.
[5:25]In your Sunday paper and sometimes I just sit there and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't
[5:29]believe she's being so open with us.
[5:31]That's amazing.
[5:32]That makes me feel better.
[5:33]So I feel like you are doing what I'm trying to do, like, squared.
[5:37]You know, you're just like, it's just amazing.
[5:40]And I feel like that is something I value so much and I want more of in the world.
[5:44]And so, of course, I'm supporting you plus it's just really enjoyable.
[5:47]I love the recommendations.
[5:48]Anyway, I'll stop but I'm a huge fan.
[5:50]And the chapter I'm in, oh, the reason this book came out now, as you said, I just turned
[5:55]50, my twins who are my, I have four kids.
[5:58]They're my oldest kids.
[5:59]They both just went to college this fall.
[6:01]And I felt like it was such a book and moment from the past decade, which has been one
[6:05]of extreme change in my life.
[6:07]I got divorced.
[6:08]I got remarried and fell in love.
[6:11]I mean, hopefully those two go hand in hand, I guess not always, but anyway, I moved.
[6:15]I changed my name.
[6:16]I went from being a stay-at-home mom to starting opening a bookstore and a publishing company
[6:22]and a daily podcast and starting all these things that I've always dreamed that I could
[6:27]start but didn't think I necessarily would and certainly didn't think I would when I was
[6:32]at home and felt like the ship had sort of passed.
[6:35]And as I watched all my business school friends go off and do all these cool things and
[6:39]I was like, okay, well, I guess all that's not going to happen for me.
[6:42]And I guess my dream of being an author is maybe not going to happen even though I keep
[6:46]trying to get things published.
[6:48]So I'm actually in this moment where so much of what I've been trying to do, I accomplished
[6:54]in part over this decade and I wanted to take a minute to reflect and share that like
[7:01]it didn't seem like it was going to work out.
[7:03]Like there were so many mistakes I made, there were so many pitfalls and let's be honest
[7:08]about it.
[7:09]Let me just share.
[7:10]And I included essays that were the times that made me laugh the hardest or made me cry
[7:15]or that I found relatable or whatever.
[7:17]So that's really why I put the book out there.
[7:19]It's to hopefully as Maria said, not that you're all feeling alone, you know, you might
[7:24]be like, I don't need that.
[7:25]I feel fine.
[7:26]Or millions of people feeling, no, there are millions of millions of people feeling alone
[7:31]and you actually talk in the book about loneliness, about feeling alone yourself.
[7:36]And so I think let me backtrack to where you were saying that you had a lot of dreams
[7:41]that you felt just weren't going to happen.
[7:43]And I think that that crosses genders, that crosses age groups.
[7:48]My son who's 28 just turned 29 was saying to me yesterday, you know, I think it's really
[7:52]interesting, mommy, that people my age are going through the same things as people your
[7:56]age and a little bit younger.
[7:58]We're trying to figure out what do we do?
[8:01]What's the world going to look like?
[8:02]Should we stay in that job that we're in in the 20s or do something different in our
[8:07]30s?
[8:08]Will the world even be here?
[8:09]How do we shift?
[8:10]How do we change?
[8:11]One that lives next door to me, he lives in New York.
[8:13]He said, she's 60 and she just told me when I was taking my garbage out, I retired and
[8:19]I don't know what to do with my life and I said, join the club.
[8:22]And he said, isn't that kind of interesting that we're all having the same experience trying
[8:28]to tell people our dreams or maybe sometimes we don't want to share our dreams because
[8:32]they sound too ambitious or too unattainable.
[8:36]So how did you go from thinking like, these are my dreams, but I'm never going to get them
[8:40]to actually sitting here in your own bookstore and becoming an author, which was your
[8:46]dream.
[8:47]Well, the author piece came alongside all of the other pieces.
[8:52]There were simultaneous tracks and I had wanted to be an author since I was 10 on my
[8:59]grandparents published this little miniature book of mine with its own little end papers
[9:02]and my name on the spine and there was a print run of 20 and I decided, you know what,
[9:07]this is what I'm going to do with my life.
[9:08]But I couldn't find the way in, I interned at Vanity Fair Magazine and I was in college
[9:12]and I thought, well, maybe if I work in magazines, this is how I'll be an author and
[9:16]I was filing author contracts and thought, wait a minute, there's no path at this magazine
[9:20]to getting to be in the file cabinet versus filing, I have to do something else.
[9:25]And so I sort of followed all of these passions of mine and it made my resume a little
[9:29]bit all over the place and I was a little bit embarrassed about that.
[9:32]I worked at a psychiatric hospital and the adolescent inpatient unit, I worked in an advertising
[9:37]agency, I did marketing, brand planning, I launched the Veroang fragrance Unilever.
[9:42]I worked in marketing at an ideal lab in Pasadena as I was on things where you're dreams.
[9:47]None of these things were my dreams and when I got to business school and had sort of
[9:51]resigned myself to like, okay, my career will be in marketing.
[9:54]I met people there who were like, I am so passionate about marketing and I was like, you
[9:58]are like.
[10:00]Like seriously, and then I realized how not passionate I what I mean
[10:04]I still enjoy it but no my passion was books like I love to read more than
[10:09]anything I love to write and I was like but I've gotten so off course here and
[10:14]then I did try after business school I tried to write a book and it got I tried
[10:17]writing several times and it kept getting rejected and I was so ashamed
[10:23]especially by the first rejection because I told everyone I knew that I was
[10:27]writing a book this is when I was 28 I mean it's like it's like I can't
[10:31]believe I was so ashamed then like what did I know but anyway I felt like it
[10:35]was such a public failure that I got an agent and couldn't sell a novel in
[10:39]retrospect I'm glad because the book was really not that good and I've been
[10:42]able to create so much more like my life is so much more meaning than had I just
[10:47]accomplished that goal so sometimes I think we weave around a little bit but
[10:51]anyway I ended up staying home with my kids and writing freelance writing on
[10:57]the side my first article was in 17 magazine when I was 16 years old and the
[11:00]essay form has always been my favorite so I never gave that up but when I went
[11:05]to publish a bunch of parenting essays that I wrote in the aftermath of my
[11:08]divorce when I finally had time to read and write again a lot when they went
[11:12]with my ex which I wrote about I had enough essays to turn into a book at
[11:17]some point and agents had no interest you're a nobody you don't you're not on
[11:21]social media you don't have a following like no platform nobody wants to read
[11:25]parenting essays and I'm like no I think they're kind of funny and I've been
[11:28]freelancing for 20 plus years and it didn't matter and so a girlfriend Sarah
[11:33]Malinowski who lives a few blocks away suggested I start a podcast and that led
[11:37]to the rest of my life it was one step and I say this often because I didn't
[11:42]go from staying at home to this like this I've been doing this now for ten
[11:49]years basically I took one step I said okay I'll try to listen to some
[11:53]podcasts what would my podcast be I'll try to like make a little logo and I'm
[11:57]gonna record my first episode alone in my bedroom into a phone and not even
[12:02]tell anyone in case it goes really badly and it started with that decision and
[12:06]I could have easily said oh she suggested this no forget it but I think that's
[12:10]the difference and how our lives can sometimes turn on trying one little
[12:14]thing that's how it ended up here I mean there were lots of things happened
[12:18]after that but that was the turning point because so many people I come into
[12:21]contact with want to write a book and they go through rejections and they
[12:26]stay at it and it's really tough these days to write a book particularly a
[12:29]nonfiction book and people ask me all the time how many rejections is too
[12:34]many how long should I actually stay trying to get this book published how do I
[12:40]get it published and what's your advice to people who want to be writers or
[12:44]our writers but their dream is to publish a book well and it's interesting to
[12:49]have this perspective because now like you like I read submissions and I'm in
[12:54]the position where I'm rejecting them it's just so bizarre like I want to
[12:57]publish everything that we read but I can't and I think when you are submitting to
[13:03]a publisher first of all make sure that that is the very best thing in the
[13:07]world that you could submit so I think because people can be afraid they're
[13:12]like I did my best I'm just gonna submit it and see what happens no no
[13:15]like go through many rounds of edits show your friends show get a writing
[13:20]coach if you want or go there are lots of free workshops like make that the
[13:25]best it can possibly be and also figure out why it is you're writing it and
[13:29]does it need to be published and why are you publishing they're all these
[13:32]things to think about because the market is so crowded there are so many
[13:37]books coming out every single day what is your story doing like how are
[13:41]what are you saying to people what unmet need are you meeting with this book is
[13:45]just entertainment is information could your book be an essay could it be a
[13:49]short story do you want to test it out that way first but once you're locked in
[13:54]and you've gotten some positive feedback and you've tested things out you then
[13:59]have to keep trying I really recommend trying to find an agent I know it's not
[14:03]easy I'm on my you know I didn't have an agent for a while and now I have an
[14:07]agent who's who's lovely but I had a long time where I didn't have an agent it's
[14:10]not so easy but it's worth it it makes your book better and giving up is the
[14:16]only thing that's gonna make sure that you don't get it in and I know that
[14:18]sounds so obvious but there are so many manuscripts at home in people's
[14:23]drawers that are probably better than the biggest best sellers and the only
[14:26]reason they're not is because they're still in the drawer or people are afraid so
[14:31]I think fear holds people back but I do think it's worthwhile to evaluate
[14:35]objectively talent market public ability how much you want to be out there
[14:40]yourself as an author I mean this is like a job you know this is not for the
[14:44]faint of heart let me put it that way so I think the one part in there I think
[14:48]you listed it number two or three but I always think it's the most important
[14:52]like why do you want to do this what is it about your story that you think
[14:58]the world needs to know and what
[15:00]what is it that's uniquely your own?
[15:02]And I would ask you here,
[15:04]what is it you think that it was about this,
[15:07]that you thought the world needs to know this?
[15:10]Literally, as I was saying that out loud,
[15:12]I was thinking to myself,
[15:13]oh god, do I have a reason why the world is this book?
[15:16]Like, did I answer my own question?
[15:19]I think this book is designed to be something easy,
[15:25]you can dip in and out of,
[15:26]between all the other amazing books you're gonna read,
[15:29]it's short, you can listen to it,
[15:31]you can read it quickly.
[15:32]It will make you laugh, it will hopefully make you laugh
[15:36]and cry and see your own life a little bit differently
[15:39]and feel a little bit better about the chapter
[15:41]that you're in.
[15:42]That is my intention,
[15:43]that you start to think about it,
[15:44]that we start the conversation.
[15:46]I have a sub stack now where people,
[15:48]is any, are any of my sub stack writers here today, by the way?
[15:51]And if you are, stand up.
[15:52]Here, stand up for a second,
[15:53]if you wrote for the sub stack.
[15:55]I'm reading here a sub stack page with a sub stack.
[15:57]Oh no, I mean like,
[15:58]so I have a sit down.
[16:00]I sit up, sit down.
[16:04]I encourage people to write essays about the chapter
[16:07]they're going through because when we all share,
[16:10]somehow it makes life a little more easy to navigate
[16:13]and the book is supposed to be like the coffee
[16:16]you didn't have time to get with your friend.
[16:18]You can pick it up whenever it's convenient
[16:21]and the way friendship and conversation helps,
[16:23]that's what I hope this book does.
[16:25]It's just like a hug, a brief chat
[16:28]and then you go on.
[16:29]And I feel like who can't use that?
[16:31]And it's quick.
[16:32]I think what, when I picked up the book
[16:34]or when you sent me the book,
[16:35]I actually had no idea what the book was about.
[16:38]And I started reading it and I got to say I was like,
[16:41]whoa, in the beginning.
[16:42]I was like, whoa, because you talk very openly here
[16:46]about the eventual love affair that led to your,
[16:51]the demise of your marriage.
[16:52]But you talk about things I think that for a long time,
[16:56]people didn't speak about.
[16:57]they were ashamed of, shrouded in secrecy.
[17:01]And you kind of just put it right out there.
[17:03]You talked about your marriage.
[17:06]You talked about falling in love with Kyle,
[17:08]who was your tennis teacher,
[17:09]but it became something more.
[17:11]You talked about how that made you feel with your kids.
[17:15]You talked about shame.
[17:16]You talked about judgment.
[17:17]You talked about feeling like a quote terrible mother.
[17:21]Did you have any like, I don't know if I wanna put that out there?
[17:25]Should I have?
[17:27]I'm asking you.
[17:30]I think it's, no, I didn't.
[17:33]I wanted to put it out there because I've come to realize
[17:36]that anything I think and worry about other people
[17:40]have had those thoughts.
[17:41]Like none of us are that original in a good way,
[17:45]in a very good way.
[17:46]And I don't think I realized that before I started sharing
[17:49]so openly.
[17:50]But anything I share publicly now, I get DMs or comments
[17:55]or emails about people saying like,
[17:57]oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that like me too.
[18:00]Thank you for finally saying something about it.
[18:02]Like I feel better now.
[18:03]So it was a period of intense vulnerability.
[18:06]And I was working it out on the page,
[18:08]which is what I used writing for a lot.
[18:10]But I think sharing it helps other people
[18:13]who might be processing that too.
[18:15]I mean, making this decision to get a divorce
[18:18]or make a huge change in your life,
[18:20]it's not something you make flippantly
[18:22]and there are repercussions to that.
[18:24]And I just wanted to work through it
[18:27]and it's not like divorce is rare, right?
[18:29]So other moms out there are going through this.
[18:32]And ultimately, and that's, yeah.
[18:35]Of course, of all to everybody, you know, anyway.
[18:38]No, but I thought it was refreshingly brave.
[18:41]And I thought the other part that was also really great
[18:44]that Zibi talks about is the pain of joint custody,
[18:47]the pain of when you, your children go off
[18:50]to spend that time with their other parent.
[18:53]And the vacant feeling, the emptiness
[18:57]that overcomes you and how difficult that was for you.
[19:02]And you kind of talk about it in very realistic terms.
[19:06]And it helped writing and books
[19:09]helped fill that emptiness at that time.
[19:12]Yes, I had this therapist at the time who said,
[19:15]remember how much you love books with a good book,
[19:17]you'll never be lonely.
[19:18]And that has really become the battling cry essentially
[19:22]of my life.
[19:22]And I feel like, in part, I've wanted to dedicate my life
[19:25]as a thank you note to all the authors
[19:27]who have gotten me through my life.
[19:28]And I really do feel that way.
[19:30]But divorce pain is what I wrote essay called
[19:32]the divorce pain, like, why do we not have greeting cards
[19:35]that are like, I'm so sorry for your divorce pain?
[19:37]Because it hurts.
[19:40]Like, whoever, it doesn't matter who causes the divorce
[19:43]or what the ins and outs are.
[19:45]Like, when you have joint custody
[19:47]and you are missing your kids for whatever reason,
[19:50]and someone else out there,
[19:51]legally is in charge of your kids,
[19:54]it's not the best feeling.
[19:56]Like, especially for someone who is so,
[19:58]like, I was hanging my-
[20:00]my head on being a stay at home mom.
[20:02]And I love my, I mean, I'm sure everybody loves their kids.
[20:04]I really love my kids so much and that was very hard.
[20:06]So I just think, you know,
[20:08]the fact that my mom would always call me
[20:11]like Thursday's at six,
[20:12]because she knew I would be crying when I dropped off the kids.
[20:14]Like it's been over a decade.
[20:16]And I just dropped them yesterday on my way here
[20:19]and Kyle knew to call and be like,
[20:21]are you okay?
[20:22]And I'm like, no.
[20:22]I mean, it doesn't get better.
[20:24]I don't, I mean, that doesn't sound very hopeful.
[20:26]It can still strike a chord.
[20:29]And there's so many people going through it.
[20:31]And I just think, let's talk about it a little bit more.
[20:33]Let's take the blame or the shame or whatever out of it.
[20:36]And just discuss it.
[20:38]This is part of our culture now is these, you know,
[20:40]modern families.
[20:41]So yeah, and I think what was beautiful about that is like,
[20:44]let's take the shame out of it.
[20:46]Let's put the pain of it out on the page.
[20:50]And also you talk about being worried about what other people
[20:52]would think of you about your friends,
[20:55]upper east side people that saw you a certain way.
[20:58]And now they were going to see you a completely different way.
[21:02]I think that this is a big thing that people come to
[21:04]in midlife about so many things.
[21:06]Like if I switch careers, people will see me
[21:09]or won't see me anymore.
[21:11]If I leave the big job that I've been in,
[21:13]but I'm not really passionate about any more,
[21:16]will people still invite me?
[21:18]I hear also a lot of, you know, people talking about that.
[21:21]Who am I without this?
[21:23]Will they still include me in that?
[21:25]If I don't bring this identity to the table,
[21:30]I think what's also kind of about being between chapters
[21:34]is like being between identities.
[21:36]And so you had one identity and you had to like let it
[21:41]kind of dissolve and then you had to take on a new identity.
[21:45]How difficult is that for people who are contemplating?
[21:48]And some, as I said, divorce is just one way of doing it.
[21:51]It's changing jobs, changing careers moving to different cities,
[21:55]states, whatever it is.
[21:56]It's a new identity.
[21:58]I mean, I feel like I should ask you.
[22:00]I mean, in your book, you write all about this
[22:02]about being first lady and what happens after.
[22:06]And the scene where you're walking on the beach
[22:08]and you're like at the ocean just being like,
[22:10]I'm going in the ocean, it's gonna hold me.
[22:12]I'm just trying to rethink my life
[22:14]and it's gonna be okay, but how am I gonna get through it?
[22:16]I mean, you have so many of those moments
[22:18]in your book that are really relatable
[22:20]and even you working through all of the issues.
[22:23]Like how do you feel about it?
[22:24]Well, I feel like you have to work through all the issues.
[22:26]And I feel like that's why I think it's such a universal subject
[22:31]that people, as I said of all ages, all genders,
[22:35]we live in a society that always ask, what do you do?
[22:39]What do you do?
[22:40]Who are you?
[22:41]You go to a cocktail party, what do you do?
[22:43]And I go to a cocktail party and I'm like, who are you?
[22:47]And people, what do you mean?
[22:50]I says, well, who are you?
[22:52]Well, I'm, this time a lawyer and I said,
[22:54]no, but who are you?
[22:55]What are you interested in?
[22:56]What moves you?
[22:58]What excites you?
[22:58]And people are like, you know, because I think we live
[23:03]and I used to talk to a lot of,
[23:05]when I was a younger mother,
[23:07]a lot of women would say to me like,
[23:08]nobody wants to talk to me because I say I'm just a mom.
[23:12]And I would hear that when I was first lady of California,
[23:15]people would come up to me all the time and say,
[23:16]you know, could you do this?
[23:17]Could you do this?
[23:18]And I say, well, why don't you do it?
[23:19]And they'd say, I'm just a mom.
[23:22]I don't have an identity beyond that.
[23:24]And so I think, on of our culture,
[23:27]scares people into thinking that they're nothing
[23:31]beyond a job or a title or being somebody's wife
[23:35]or somebody's mother or whatever it is.
[23:36]And I think it takes great work to be between chapters
[23:41]and try to figure out I am what I am who.
[23:45]And I think that's to me kind of what this book really is
[23:49]about.
[23:50]I am you talk about your faith.
[23:51]I'm a Jewish woman.
[23:53]I am an entrepreneur.
[23:54]I'm a bookstore owner.
[23:56]I'm a divorced woman.
[23:57]I'm a mother.
[23:58]I'm alone.
[23:59]I'm a terrible mother.
[24:01]I feel shame.
[24:02]I feel judgment.
[24:03]All of this is in here.
[24:04]I'm actually a very good mother.
[24:06]Just like that.
[24:07]You wrote it here.
[24:09]I'm not, you know, I'm journalist.
[24:11]She wrote, I'm afraid I'm a terrible mom.
[24:13]I was afraid, but I was wrong.
[24:17]Yeah, there you go.
[24:19]What were you wrong about?
[24:20]What are, let's talk about all the things
[24:21]you're wrong about?
[24:22]No, no, I'm just kidding.
[24:23]No, I'm serious.
[24:25]No, you were wrong in thinking you couldn't become an author.
[24:28]You were wrong in thinking you might not
[24:30]have a life after divorce.
[24:32]What are all the things you were wrong about?
[24:34]Because I think that's a big part of creating
[24:36]a new identity is admitting what you're wrong about.
[24:38]I had a lot of fear.
[24:40]And it wasn't enough to stop my behavior.
[24:42]But yeah, I was worried.
[24:44]Am I going to ruin my kids?
[24:45]And you just don't know when you make these types of decisions.
[24:49]But I do have confidence in some of the things
[24:51]that I hold dear.
[24:52]Like I believed I could write, not that I'm
[24:55]barbecuing solver or anything, but I can write about my emotions
[24:59]clearly in an S.
[25:00]like, for whatever skill that's worth, I can do that.
[25:03]And I feel confident in that.
[25:05]I can, I feel like I'm pretty good with my kids.
[25:07]I mean, I don't know what they would say.
[25:08]Now I have 14 ages, so I don't know.
[25:12]Depends on the day, I guess.
[25:13]But maybe I was wrong, but I just wasn't sure.
[25:17]And none of us are really sure, right?
[25:19]We don't know when we make decisions.
[25:22]If it's gonna pan out, we don't know
[25:24]if the book we really want to get published,
[25:27]is gonna get published.
[25:28]And I was interviewing authors all the time.
[25:30]And I would have authors like show up at my desk
[25:32]talking about how many rejections they had had.
[25:34]And I'm like, yeah, but you're Mitch album.
[25:36]And it worked out for you.
[25:37]Like, it might not work out for me.
[25:41]Cause like, I'm not you.
[25:43]And so I think that we have to keep plotting
[25:46]through the world not knowing.
[25:49]And that is what we are all doing every day.
[25:51]And I kind of wanted to touch on that.
[25:53]It's not that any of us are wrong.
[25:55]It's that we're a little bit afraid of the unknown.
[25:58]And how can we not be?
[26:00]Because, I mean, there's a lot of scary stuff out there,
[26:02]but also, you know, if we just get through the day,
[26:05]it's gonna be okay.
[26:06]Plus we have to deal with all, you know, our background.
[26:09]Like you write in your book, I am Maria,
[26:11]which you all have to read if you have not
[26:13]this poetic, introspective look at how you grew up
[26:16]and your relationship with your mom and the door.
[26:20]And oh my gosh, it's like so moving.
[26:22]And you can like re-conceptualize how you think about
[26:24]people and why they do the way they do.
[26:26]Like you've dedicated your life in part
[26:28]to helping others and making sure they're not lonely.
[26:31]And there's an image of you like outside your mom's door
[26:34]and not being let in.
[26:35]Like it's like, oh my gosh.
[26:37]So I don't know.
[26:38]I think that writing helps connect you
[26:40]and helps you make sense of your past
[26:41]so that you can go forward.
[26:43]100% I'm a big believer in writing your way forward
[26:46]and actually writing it in long hand,
[26:48]which actually science does back that up
[26:51]that if you actually write with your hands
[26:54]as opposed to on the computer,
[26:56]it does change neuropathways
[26:58]and you can make sense in a way of where you are
[27:01]or where you thought you were or where you're going
[27:03]by writing it out.
[27:04]And I often surprised myself when I write.
[27:07]I'm like, I didn't know I thought that
[27:08]or I didn't know I feel like that.
[27:10]And I think I ask you about being wrong
[27:13]because I think so many of us go through life
[27:16]thinking one thing about ourselves or about a situation
[27:19]and it turns out to be totally wrong.
[27:22]And that wrong feeling keeps us in fear,
[27:25]keeps us thinking we don't have a voice,
[27:27]we can't get a platform, we can't fall in love,
[27:31]we can't do these things.
[27:32]When it's just as easy to flip the narrative
[27:35]and make it a narrative that works for you,
[27:38]I can get published, maybe not now,
[27:40]but I can get published.
[27:42]I deserve to be published.
[27:44]I may be lonely, but I also have friends
[27:46]and I wanna talk about that
[27:47]because you talk a lot about your girlfriends
[27:50]and the importance of them.
[27:52]And you also address being lonely.
[27:54]And sometimes those two people struggle with like,
[27:57]well, how could that be?
[27:58]You're surrounded by so many people,
[27:59]how could you be lonely?
[28:01]Or you look like such a good mother,
[28:02]how could you feel like a terrible mother?
[28:04]So can you talk a little bit about holding both of those
[28:07]and they go all the way through on everything,
[28:10]like holding the duality of those?
[28:13]Yeah, and you're essay on this was so beautiful too.
[28:16]I mean, everyone can think that things are fine.
[28:19]And yet you end up with a day where you're like,
[28:23]where am I going for break fast?
[28:25]And you're like, I'm not sure.
[28:26]Maybe I have nowhere to go.
[28:27]And then you're like, well, do I have friends?
[28:30]You can have a moment that makes you rethink everything.
[28:34]Even if it doesn't make sense,
[28:36]emotion is more powerful than logic
[28:39]and it can make you feel that sense of loneliness
[28:42]even if it's not factually true
[28:44]and that you could pick up your phone and call people.
[28:47]And I think a lot of us are reluctant to do that
[28:50]or we don't want to put other people out there
[28:52]or like, I don't want to bother this person.
[28:54]But yes, in the book I talk a lot about my girlfriends
[28:56]and how important they are to me,
[28:58]especially one who are right about in the book
[29:00]who calls me her journey woman
[29:02]because we don't see each other that often.
[29:04]But any time we do, we sit down and we pick up
[29:06]just the way we would have had we been together the day
[29:09]before.
[29:10]And I'm sure everybody has a friend or two like that
[29:12]and just how important it is to make space
[29:14]those relationships and not beat yourself up.
[29:17]Like friendship is not measured in time spent
[29:19]or frequency of coffee date.
[29:21]It's a depth of feeling and connection and all of that.
[29:24]So maybe it's to make an excuse
[29:26]but we're also busy, how do we find time
[29:29]to at least value the people in our lives?
[29:31]Like how do you do that?
[29:32]Find time to value the people in my lives.
[29:34]I tell them.
[29:36]No, I literally tell them how much I love them,
[29:39]how much they mean to me.
[29:41]I make a pointed point of doing that.
[29:44]And people are like, oh yeah, okay, okay, you know.
[29:47]Or especially I do that to my brother's a lot.
[29:49]Like, oh, I just, I love you.
[29:50]I really like, oh God, Maria.
[29:52]I'm like, no, I actually really love you.
[29:55]Okay, okay, okay.
[29:56]So, you know, and it's funny to watch people become so uncomfortable.
[30:00]comfortable when you express your love or you're, I say that to my kids a lot. I just,
[30:05]I mean, I just love you so much. Like, thanks Ma, I go, no, but do you understand what
[30:11]I'm saying? Like, oh God, you know, here she goes. But I think it's, I'm a big believer
[30:17]in that we have this moment this day, right here, right? And if you don't tell, you
[30:25]don't know when you're going to see that person again, if you're ever going to see
[30:28]them again, what's in store. And I think being able to tell somebody it means a lot
[30:34]to me that you called or it means a lot to me that you came to have dinner with me. Or whatever
[30:39]the means a lot to you is, I think there is, you never lose by saying those things. And I
[30:46]think it makes a profound difference in someone's life when you say, you know, I miss
[30:52]the sound of your voice. My brother said that to me, I have a weekly thing now with
[30:57]my older brother. I go, I say, I think we should have a weekly dinner. He said, why?
[31:02]And I said, well, because you're busy, I'm busy. There's, we're always in a, you know,
[31:07]a crowd of people. And I want to really hear what you're doing, what you're up to, who
[31:12]you are now, where you're going. And I want to do that one on one with you every week.
[31:16]Can he goes every week? I'm like, yeah, every week, I want to do it with you every,
[31:21]it's turned into this really beautiful weekly get together with him. And I kind of hold that
[31:28]night. And he told me that a friend of his call to him the other day and said, hey, man,
[31:32]I miss the sound of your voice. And he said, it was so powerful to him because people are
[31:39]texting or they don't call us, but she said that somebody missed my voice. And I said,
[31:45]oh, I always love your voice because when I call you, you act excited when you hear me on the
[31:51]other line, he goes, I am excited. I said, how rare is that? That somebody is like, hey, hi.
[31:58]You're like, wow, great. You know, that's great. Is that, yep. That's what I get all like, yep,
[32:05]what's up? You know, I get that, you know, or like, you know, so I just think that being able to
[32:11]tell somebody what they mean, you may never get another chance at it. So why not? I love that.
[32:17]Yeah. Let me talk here in this towards the back of the book. You talk about editing what became
[32:22]on being Jewish now was one of the most meaningful endeavors of your entire career. You talk a lot
[32:27]about your faith in here about stepping into your faith being proud of your faith at a time when
[32:33]many people of the Jewish faith are really afraid to step into saying, I'm a proud Jewish person.
[32:40]And so did you have thoughts about that? Did you worry about the ramifications of that?
[32:46]And has there been a cost to that for you? There has been a cost to that for sure,
[32:53]but there has also been a benefit. A cost, as soon as I spoke out about being Jewish, I had
[33:00]authors who were going to be on my podcast cancel on me. I had bookstore owners say they wouldn't
[33:06]carry the books that we published from Zibi Publishing, even authors who were not Jewish,
[33:11]because of my beliefs. I just literally yesterday, two days ago had an author say, you know,
[33:16]I just don't feel like I agree with your political view. I'm like, you don't even know
[33:19]my political view. What are you talking about? I wrote an essay collection about how it feels
[33:26]and what it means to be Jewish now, where people are reflecting on that. Excuse me. And sharing
[33:31]their innermost feelings about what happens when a piece of you is being attacked and it's just
[33:36]getting worse. And she was so she was like, I'm not coming on. I'm like, okay. And I was just like,
[33:40]you know what? All the best. Great. Understood. Did you really think all the best?
[33:52]Okay, I'm going to now. We're not here. I'm not here to be a journalist on you, but
[33:58]I'm just going to let you sit with that or you don't have to answer that. You talk in here about
[34:03]feeling that you deeply understand how it feels to be excluded. And so you have dedicated
[34:10]your life to helping others feel included. I host parties and dinners and retreats together.
[34:16]Nice people who are kind to one another to help others get through hard times.
[34:21]And you say this, maybe this is why I do all that I do. Is that why you do all that you do?
[34:26]Maybe. No. I think it is part of it. I think that I try really hard to make things better for
[34:37]other people. That means a lot to me. It makes me feel good to do that. And I think the most
[34:44]poignant or the most important way we can all do that these days is to gather people in person.
[34:49]Like that's why I love this bookstore. And the fact that we have events here all the time,
[34:53]and people can just walk down the street and come in and have a nice conversation and be in
[34:57]person with each other. That's not always part of it.
[35:00]possible. There aren't that many spaces in the world where we can do that all the time
[35:04]after a university environment or before retirement community. There's like this middle
[35:09]space in life where where do we go. So yeah, I think I'm very, very sensitive and emotional
[35:17]and I try to put that to good use and try to help. So I do think some of it is motivated
[35:24]by that that feeling of I I get what this is like and if I can do anything to prevent
[35:30]you from having to feel that then let me try. This is that you were perhaps I want to spare
[35:35]people from the emotion that has been the hardest for me to bear at different points
[35:39]in my life. Loneliness that a grabs me up like a scratchy blanket that I can't shake off.
[35:46]The pain I'd feel walking down the street on a beautiful day in New York City when
[35:50]I was single seeing all those other people eating at outdoor tables laughing when I didn't
[35:57]have any plans that night or seeing groups of moms with strollers when I was pushing mine
[36:02]alone or even now seeing groups of people on Instagram out at fun parties or taking
[36:08]girl strips that I wasn't invited to. Not that I could have gone but would have been nice
[36:13]to be included. I think this is a universal thing that people are experiencing now at
[36:19]a very young age about I wasn't included I'm not invited and it just kind of follows
[36:25]us through all of these moments right you're your single and you see couples you know
[36:31]sitting out at night I've had that feeling myself walking down going damn what are they
[36:35]talking about and I don't have that right. I think but it seems so acute today because
[36:41]of social media where people are posting everything that you weren't included in. How do
[36:46]you do that with your own kids how do you talk about that how do you talk about it with
[36:51]your journey women your friends because I think that that affects everybody yeah I don't
[36:57]think there's like a clear cut solution to it that's why I think talking about it can
[37:01]sometimes be the best thing and also knowing like you can't be everywhere every time like
[37:07]it's okay I think for my kids I mean it's it's so hard like you see it there like
[37:12]these people this sleepover whatever I try to make sure my kids don't do that to other
[37:19]people ever right like we're always trying to be inclusive and but I think just reaching
[37:25]out of hand and trying to be as inclusive as possible and not intentionally like when
[37:30]I post things too like like is what I'm posting gonna upset anybody is there somebody
[37:35]I forgot to invite and I sit there and I like rack my brain who did I forget to tag
[37:39]somebody in this like and I try and then inevitably I like forget like I wrote it round
[37:44]up of 30 podcasts who had just had me on like here's some great podcast and then two people
[37:48]were like what about my podcast I'm like oh my gosh like I tried so hard to get everybody
[37:51]but I think just taking that extra step and saying did I am I excluding somebody with
[37:55]what I'm doing here am I making someone feel bad by what I'm putting out there and just
[38:00]like trying not to do that I think that's what's you know really wonderful about this because
[38:05]I think whether you have faith or you're out of a particular religion somebody has
[38:10]something to say about whatever religion you are or not right somebody always has something
[38:16]to say about your parenting somebody has something to say about your work about the opinion
[38:22]you've had and so I think it's always interesting to talk to people about how they manage
[38:26]that and I think that's a thing like I find myself talking to my adult children a lot
[38:33]about is managing the world that we are all living in the brutality the exclusion that
[38:40]the world we are living in the noise that is going on and how to decipher our way through
[38:46]it so and what do you tell them well I tell them that it's a noisy world that we're
[38:52]living in it is you know I try to address it is oftentimes a mean world but that the vast
[38:58]majority of people are good are kind the vast majority of people are serving others and
[39:04]I see that so much in the special Olympics I see that in best buddies I see that in my
[39:10]women's Alzheimer's advocacy or the caregiving advocacy that I do I see that by getting
[39:15]out of specific worlds and joining other worlds and I try to remind myself I went to
[39:23]to the special Olympics in Minneapolis the USA Games and I was stunned by all the young people
[39:30]who volunteered and all the coaches and people took a week's vacation from their job to you
[39:35]know not get paid anything and work in 100 degree weather 18 hours a day on behalf of people
[39:41]with intellectual disabilities the vast majority of the world is good is kind is trying to
[39:46]find a way better and be in that group be a part of that keep your eye on that and you
[39:53]know them and I talk because I obviously in the media so I talk about media's role and
[39:57]making you see something that might not.
[40:00]really be the dominant feeling that's out there
[40:03]or the dominant story.
[40:04]So look for the story that's not being told.
[40:06]And that's usually the story of people doing extraordinary
[40:09]things for no reason at all.
[40:11]And I think that you just have to focus on the story
[40:14]you want to focus on.
[40:15]And I think that's the power of books.
[40:17]That's the power of writing articles.
[40:20]That's the power of certain periodicals.
[40:22]And if you keep your eye on the wrong thing,
[40:24]you can have a really negative view of the world.
[40:27]And you can have a really negative view of your neighbor
[40:29]and if you keep your eye on the right thing,
[40:32]which takes discipline and focus,
[40:34]you could have a completely different view of the world.
[40:37]So, and it's really a choice.
[40:39]Just like what book do you want to buy?
[40:41]What periodicals do you want to support?
[40:43]How do you want to kind of run your life?
[40:46]That's kind of what I tell them.
[40:48]I love that.
[40:48]Thank you.
[40:49]Yeah, and I find talking to people
[40:53]who are like my son, the 29-year-old,
[40:55]he went to New York looking for community.
[40:57]So he joined a unified Special Olympics team in Brooklyn.
[41:01]And he, which is teams of sports teams that pair people
[41:06]without intellectual disabilities,
[41:07]with people with intellectual disabilities.
[41:10]And they play on the same team,
[41:12]a soccer team of basketball, whatever it is.
[41:14]And they play unified.
[41:16]And he said it just changes whole life.
[41:18]Did so many people his age had gone out to volunteer.
[41:20]And I said, wow, that really surprises me
[41:23]because I hear all the time that your generation
[41:26]doesn't want to do that.
[41:27]He goes, that's the wrong story.
[41:30]And I was like, I'm so glad you corrected me.
[41:32]I'm so glad you're telling me
[41:34]that there's so many people your age lining up
[41:37]to be a part of this on a Wednesday night.
[41:40]They're not going to a bar.
[41:41]They're going to play unified sports.
[41:43]So I thought that was such a beautiful thing.
[41:47]And so I think we're all kind of capable of that
[41:50]at the end of the day.
[41:51]And so I just don't know what you asked me,
[41:53]but that's just sort of.
[41:55]Yeah.
[41:56]So I just do that.
[41:58]Yeah.
[41:59]And if somebody tells me otherwise,
[42:02]I just attack them.
[42:03]So I'll be kidding.
[42:05]Huge, huge thank you to Maria for this.
[42:08]This was so amazing.
[42:09]Thank you, too.
[42:10]Oh, my God.
[42:11]And thank all of you.
[42:13]I want to thank all of you for coming.
[42:16]This is Zibi's book.
[42:18]And we can get it on some less.
[42:20]So let's buy it, share it, gift it.
[42:24]And so many books come out that don't get on any list.
[42:28]Once again, that's a construct made up by society,
[42:31]that this book is on a list therefore.
[42:34]This person makes this much money, therefore.
[42:37]They're the head of a company, therefore.
[42:39]But we can change that these are just rules made up
[42:41]by other people, mainly men who came along time before us.
[42:46]So we get to make up new rules.
[42:48]We get to live by new rules.
[42:49]And you get to decide, this is the best seller,
[42:52]whether it's on a list or not.
[42:53]So there you go.
[42:55]Thank you.
[42:57]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[43:00]formerly momstone of time to read books.
[43:02]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[43:05]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word.
[43:10]Thanks so much.
[43:11]Oh, and buy the books.