Chloe Melas and Judy Batalion on Breaking the Bowel Disease Taboo with The Girl’s Guide to Guts
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not-yet-discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:25]I had so much fun talking to both
[0:29]Chloe Malass and Judy Battalion
[0:32]about the girls' guide to guts,
[0:34]everything your doc didn't tell you,
[0:36]but your bestie would.
[0:37]And by the way, you will hear in our episode
[0:39]that actually I introduced them.
[0:40]So I would like to take full credit for this book,
[0:42]but that's okay.
[0:43]Chloe Malass is an entertainment correspondent
[0:46]at NBC News appearing on the Today Show,
[0:49]Nightly News, and NBC News now.
[0:52]She previously worked at CNN
[0:53]where she broke numerous high-profile stories
[0:55]during the Me Too era and co-hosted CNN's
[0:58]New Year's Eve show alongside Anderson Cooper and Andy Cohen.
[1:01]In 2023, Chloe worked to publish her late-grandfather's memoir,
[1:05]Luck of the Draw, which became a New York Times bestseller.
[1:08]I had Chloe on to discuss that
[1:10]if you want to go back and listen to that episode.
[1:13]Chloe is the co-founder of the Gut Health brand Bio.Me.
[1:17]She lives in New York with her two sons,
[1:19]four pets, and husband.
[1:21]Judy Battalion is a New York Times best-selling author
[1:24]of award-winning nonfiction,
[1:26]and fiction.
[1:27]She has been on the podcast several times already as well,
[1:31]and contributed to on being Jewish now,
[1:34]my anthology of essays.
[1:36]Her essays have appeared in The New York Times,
[1:38]The Washington Post, and Vogue Among Others.
[1:40]Judy has a BA in the History of Science from Harvard,
[1:43]a PhD from the University of London,
[1:45]and has worked as a museum curator and university lecturer.
[1:49]She lives in New York City with her husband and three children.
[1:52]Welcome, Chloe and Judy.
[1:53]I'm so excited to be here with both of you together.
[1:57]This new friendship is like amazing to talk about
[2:00]the girl's guide to guts everything your doc didn't tell you,
[2:03]but your bestie would. Congratulations.
[2:05]Thank you. Thank you.
[2:07]Oh, so amazing.
[2:08]You're the reason.
[2:09]You're the reason why we know each other.
[2:12]Oh.
[2:13]Well, you tell this great story in the book about meeting up at
[2:17]Rock 30 Rock or wherever you were and commiserating.
[2:20]It sounded like you watched a video of
[2:23]why don't you tell it?
[2:24]You tell the origin story which you recant in the book,
[2:26]but I'll take full credit of the whole thing.
[2:28]So I first met Chloe through you because we had both written
[2:33]books about World War II.
[2:35]And I hadn't seen Chloe in a long time and one day I'm on
[2:39]Instagram and I see a link that she is featured
[2:45]in an article about ulcerative colitis.
[2:48]Now, I have ulcerative colitis.
[2:50]I've had it for over 30 years and I don't know.
[2:53]Chloe had ulcerative colitis.
[2:54]So I look it up and I see that Chloe,
[2:57]who to me is the most, I mean, polished, you know,
[3:00]together and journalist TV brought and she is speaking
[3:06]about her ulcerative colitis in a way that is so candid and open
[3:12]and graceful.
[3:13]I'd never come across anyone talk about bowel disease that way.
[3:17]I was so moved by this that I reached out to her and I never
[3:21]do this, but I couldn't resist and I reached out and I was
[3:25]like, Chloe, it's Judy, I don't know if you remember me from
[3:28]World War II, but I just read this piece.
[3:32]I would love to let's hang out and I don't think Chloe even
[3:36]knew what we were hanging out about, but we met in 30 rock in
[3:40]the basement where Chloe works at a coffee shop and we just
[3:43]started talking about our ulcerative colitis and we were
[3:47]able to be open about it and joke about it with each other and
[3:52]talk about it in a way.
[3:53]I hadn't even realized for 35 years how much I had kept
[3:57]secret.
[3:57]It was awesome.
[3:58]I know we were laughing a lot.
[4:00]And as we left and walked upstairs to the lobby, I just said,
[4:05]you know, we need to do something like let's continue the
[4:08]conversation in a more public way.
[4:10]And she's like, yeah, like, you know, and we're like,
[4:13]should we, you know, get a panel together?
[4:16]Should we do like a speaking engagement?
[4:18]Should we call Zippy?
[4:20]Like what, what should we do?
[4:21]And I just blurred it out.
[4:23]We should write a book and Judy did not laugh.
[4:27]She was like,
[4:28]okay, interesting.
[4:29]Okay, yeah, why not?
[4:31]And so by I swear the next day, our book agents were like,
[4:35]all right, sounds interesting.
[4:37]If you want to work on a proposal and Judy spent, I think
[4:40]half a year, because I just had started my new job at NBC,
[4:44]Judy, full credit wrote an entire proposal for the book over
[4:48]I swear six months and right?
[4:50]Wasn't it like half a year?
[4:51]No, I think it was faster.
[4:53]It poured out of me.
[4:55]I'm I'm bracing myself for nonstop jokes after the book.
[5:00]which is a lot of both ends.
[5:02]Yeah, there you go.
[5:03]Oh my gosh.
[5:03]All our offices.
[5:05]And we really, you know, this was something
[5:07]that we both experienced for so long.
[5:09]And we felt that if we both had colitis and didn't know,
[5:13]there must be so many other people out there
[5:15]who suffer from bowel disease and we just don't know.
[5:18]And in fact, as I started writing that proposal,
[5:21]we came to realize that there's a massive increase
[5:24]in bowel disease.
[5:25]All forms of bowel disease among young people,
[5:28]among women in general.
[5:31]Well, you say in the book that this is like the last frontier.
[5:34]This is the last taboo.
[5:36]And you are like, you know, bulldozing that one down.
[5:39]You're like, it's time to talk about all this stuff.
[5:41]But interestingly, Judy, you said
[5:42]you had never spoken publicly about this.
[5:45]And in the book, you talk about how you had to have
[5:48]your colon removed and you have a pouch.
[5:50]And it's like a whole thing and Chloe,
[5:51]you were like so embarrassed by everything.
[5:54]It's quite a jump to go from a conversation
[5:56]to now literally everyone in the world knowing about this.
[5:59]And you broadcasting it from everywhere
[6:02]to help other people, of course, which is amazing.
[6:04]How does that feel?
[6:05]Do you feel a little, do you ever feel regret?
[6:08]Is there like how do you feel about it?
[6:10]I have been getting this question recently.
[6:13]So that's really, I think it's a really important thing
[6:16]to address.
[6:17]I am not embarrassed anymore.
[6:20]I actually feel really empowered.
[6:23]And I am able to laugh about a lot of things
[6:27]that brought me a lot of tears and days
[6:31]when I didn't want to get out of bed.
[6:32]But the messages alone that were already getting
[6:35]on social media just keep pointing me back to the right path.
[6:39]It's like a magnet that keeps pulling me back.
[6:41]And I hope that my stories empower other women
[6:47]to live big, beautiful lives, even if,
[6:50]and it doesn't just apply to bowel disease.
[6:51]I think it applies to all chronic illness
[6:54]that these don't have to might press pause on your life
[6:58]for a little bit while you're figuring out
[7:00]how to deal with it and heal or treatment.
[7:03]But you can still go on to chase your dreams.
[7:06]So I'm not embarrassed anymore.
[7:08]But in the beginning, it was scary while writing the book
[7:10]and trying to decide which stories to share,
[7:13]some of which are really, really wildly personal.
[7:17]What about you, Judy?
[7:18]Yeah, I think a few months ago,
[7:19]I had to like, what am I doing?
[7:21]Why would I do this?
[7:23]But then as Chloe said, as soon as we started talking
[7:27]about the book publicly, the outpouring of messages
[7:32]and emails and people setting me up
[7:35]to talk to their friends and siblings and children.
[7:38]And it feels like it's coming out of the woodwork.
[7:43]So many people suffer quietly from bowel disease
[7:47]and it's felt very gratifying to be able to be someone
[7:52]that they can be open with.
[7:53]And the things people have told me in the,
[7:55]I mean, I, you know, like I was doing an event
[7:57]a few nights ago and the woman comes up to me after.
[7:59]She's like, Judy, I have fissures so many fissures.
[8:03]I was like, yeah, I guess I'm gonna get these stories now.
[8:06]So she never talked about it.
[8:09]And now she felt able to tell me.
[8:10]And that felt like, oh yes, I've done something right.
[8:15]That's interesting.
[8:17]Chapter 11, do you feel that writing the book
[8:20]has changed how you feel about the things happening
[8:24]with your body in real time?
[8:26]Are you more open in the moment?
[8:27]Do you tell someone in your life,
[8:29]like would you go back into a meeting and be like,
[8:31]oh, this just happened to me,
[8:32]whereas before you would never have said anything?
[8:34]Or do you feel like they're kind of separate?
[8:37]For me, it's changed how I handle certain conversations.
[8:42]The other day I was supposed to meet somebody for a drink
[8:46]and then go to an event.
[8:47]And I canceled both literally from the toilet.
[8:50]And I wrote this woman who I know named Danielle.
[8:54]And I said, I'm so sorry to cancel.
[8:56]I know we're supposed to meet in 20 minutes.
[8:58]I am having a flare.
[9:00]And I have IBD and I keep racing to the bathroom.
[9:04]And she was like, oh my gosh, I completely understand.
[9:06]Now, I don't know if I would go into a conference room
[9:09]and like tell everybody something like that.
[9:11]But now that I'm able to talk about, look, you know,
[9:15]those days when I say like, I'm running late
[9:18]for something personal, the days when I need to take
[9:21]a moment off because I've been working nonstop
[9:23]and I'm going through a flare.
[9:25]You know, when I am firing on all cylinders,
[9:27]that's when the wheels start to fall off for me, Zibi.
[9:30]And I will have some really, really tough days, health-wise.
[9:34]And it's nice to be able, at this point in my life,
[9:37]I just turned 40 to be open with certain people at work.
[9:41]Not everybody, but it's, it's felt really,
[9:44]I guess it's been a very healing time to write this book.
[9:49]Speaking of, I saw the pictures of your party.
[9:52]For your birthday, and oh my gosh, what a celebration.
[9:55]Now, 40th birthday in Greece coincided perfectly
[9:59]with Christopher Nolan.
[10:00]Once the Odyssey, as if I had planned it, who knew?
[10:05]Well, speaking about Greece, you've also been sharing
[10:08]on social about growing up from a Greek family,
[10:11]feeling a little bit on the outskirts, growing up.
[10:14]I feel like both of you have shared about your past
[10:17]and how you have felt up till now.
[10:19]Can you just talk a little bit about that
[10:22]and how you felt to growing up versus where you are today?
[10:26]Yeah, I think Judy and I have a lot
[10:28]that we relate on in terms of maybe how we felt,
[10:32]like we didn't fit in growing up.
[10:34]Especially for me, I was relentlessly bullied
[10:36]and I hinted that in certain lines in the book.
[10:39]I sort of regret not delving into it a little bit more.
[10:42]I didn't have any bowel disease as a child or teenager,
[10:45]or at least nothing that I knew of at the time,
[10:48]but I spent a lot of time in the nurse's office
[10:51]and I couldn't find a seat at the table.
[10:53]And so that was a real seat at the table.
[10:56]And then as I became an adult,
[10:57]I felt like I couldn't find like a seat
[10:59]at the metaphorical table in many ways.
[11:01]So a lot of the book in our stories,
[11:04]for me, I'm talking about advocating for myself
[11:08]within the medical system, advocating for myself
[11:10]in romantic relationships,
[11:12]advocating for myself in friendships.
[11:14]So in a way, the girls guide to guts
[11:16]is so much more than just talking about bowel disease
[11:20]and gut issues.
[11:21]It's really about standing up for yourself.
[11:26]How about you, Judy?
[11:27]I mean, I was already a nerd
[11:30]and then I got bowel disease when I was 12.
[11:33]So, I mean, it didn't make me more fit in, let's just say.
[11:38]I really struggled as an adolescent
[11:41]with a very, very painful and shameful disease.
[11:47]It was, I mean, I couldn't talk about it with anyone.
[11:50]You know, my peers are like talking about making out
[11:54]into, I'm like, I always joke,
[11:56]they're talking about like, should I try marijuana?
[11:58]I was like, I'm on more drugs than half the school, you know?
[12:01]Should they, and in terms of, of course,
[12:03]you're, as an adolescent, going through puberty,
[12:06]your developing body feels so out of control.
[12:09]My body felt like I was out more with my body.
[12:13]And my body was constantly being prodded by doctors.
[12:17]I mean, not in a bad way they were trying to help me,
[12:20]but I really had to kind of dissociate
[12:22]from my physical experience in a way as a teenager
[12:27]that had blasting impact.
[12:28]It took me a long time to get over that and overcome that.
[12:33]But once I, once I did have surgery,
[12:35]I had my entire colon removed when I was 15.
[12:38]I have an internal pouch that's constructed inside me.
[12:42]I've been really relatively healthy.
[12:45]I've had a lot of side effects and complications
[12:47]and, you know, I have to eat very carefully.
[12:49]But thank God, I, I've so far been better.
[12:53]Like, wow.
[12:54]Well, you also had different sort of onsets
[12:56]and how you handled what was happening with your bodies.
[12:59]I know Chloe, you ignored it for a long time,
[13:01]hoped it would go away, misdiagnosed really.
[13:04]Talk a little bit about that.
[13:06]And for somebody who is out there and saying,
[13:08]well, I don't know if I have something
[13:09]or maybe this is normal or whatever,
[13:13]should they go get checked out?
[13:14]What should they look for in a doctor?
[13:16]And I know you cover so much of this in the book,
[13:18]which is super helpful even though,
[13:20]from the beginning, you're like, we are not doctors,
[13:22]but this is better.
[13:23]It's like, I mean, obviously that's what the goal is,
[13:25]but it's literally like everybody now has a good friend,
[13:27]who's like, let me tell you what to do.
[13:29]So start with, you know, onset, like symptom onset,
[13:33]and how should people handle that?
[13:35]For me, I was 25 years old and I had blood
[13:38]when I went to the bathroom.
[13:39]And it was just a little bit on the toilet paper,
[13:42]bright red blood.
[13:42]I think the first line of the book
[13:44]is I'll never forget the day that I saw
[13:46]bright red blood on the toilet paper
[13:48]when I went to the bathroom.
[13:49]My boss actually just, I gave him a copy
[13:52]of the book yesterday and he opened it
[13:54]and he reads the first line.
[13:55]And he's burst out laughing, closed the book,
[13:58]he's laughing, like, keeled over.
[14:01]I'm like, oh, okay, good, all right, all right.
[14:03]So it's just funny, it's not, it's not depressing.
[14:06]Okay, good, all right, interesting.
[14:08]And so I really thought it was a hemorrhoid.
[14:11]My mother made a huge deal.
[14:12]I have a mother very similar to your zippy,
[14:14]except we don't live in the city.
[14:17]You look alike, we dress alike, very similar,
[14:20]but I'm very outgoing.
[14:21]She's very introverted, but she's never met a doctor.
[14:24]She didn't like.
[14:25]We call her a hypochondriac by proxy in the book,
[14:28]but you know, she's taken it well.
[14:30]She's read the book, she really likes it.
[14:32]And I finally went to a gastroenterologist
[14:35]and I was diagnosed with an inflammation of my rectum.
[14:38]He gave me some medication.
[14:40]I didn't take it because youth is wasted on the young.
[14:43]I keep saying, for the next year,
[14:46]the symptoms got so bad that I was racing
[14:48]to the bathroom over a dozen times a day,
[14:51]with blood, with mucus, with loose stools.
[14:55]And it's disgusting, but I just,
[14:58]I had to hit rock bottom before
[15:00]Before I found another doctor, I had a colonoscopy
[15:04]and he diagnosed me with an inflammation of my colon,
[15:07]known as ulcerative colitis.
[15:09]And that was the beginning of a long journey of 15 years.
[15:14]So what I would say in short, though,
[15:16]is anybody out there that has blood in the stool,
[15:18]you've just really got to go to a gastroenterologist.
[15:22]I know people that have gone to an OB-GYN
[15:24]amid misdiagnosed in its colon cancer.
[15:27]So that's a real easy one.
[15:29]Blood, don't run, but you need to get to a GI.
[15:34]So I don't want to be an alarmist, because it could be a hemorrhoid.
[15:36]So that's like my one big thing.
[15:38]There's a lot of other things that I could talk about later
[15:43]in this conversation as other things to look for.
[15:46]But for me, it was the blood.
[15:48]How about you, Judy?
[15:49]I mean, my disease came on suddenly and dramatically.
[15:54]I write about this book.
[15:55]I was in New York, was my first trip.
[15:57]Like looking out at the Statue of Liberty,
[15:59]this exciting city of possibility and creativity in my future.
[16:04]And suddenly I felt nauseous, like really nauseous.
[16:08]And I came down with what we thought the time was a very severe stomach flu,
[16:13]very high fever coming out of all sorts.
[16:16]I mean, really just really sick.
[16:18]And it just never really went away.
[16:21]The symptoms, the acute illness abated,
[16:24]but like the symptoms lingered.
[16:27]And over the following months, just got worse and worse and worse until
[16:30]we're like this, something's going on.
[16:32]We need to see a doctor.
[16:35]Oh my gosh.
[16:35]So for the people who are diagnosed already
[16:40]and just need the companionship, want the understanding,
[16:44]maybe some hacks, management hacks, and like had a handle,
[16:48]which chapters would you direct them to?
[16:50]Or what is the most, where should they dig in?
[16:53]Or just everything.
[16:54]I'm going to start.
[16:55]I really, the chapter, because I've been relatively healthy for a long time,
[17:01]the chapter that really, I learned something researching this chapter is the last chapter.
[17:06]It's about the emotional complications of the disease.
[17:10]I didn't even know until the health anxiety, something I really experience is actually
[17:16]common for people who've had illnesses, who are hyper aware and hypersensitive,
[17:21]and really spiral and panic with any symptom.
[17:25]For me, for someone who has been sick for a while, I hope that chapter can offer some
[17:31]relief or some at least shared understanding that many of the fears and anxieties around
[17:39]the illness can be as difficult as the illness itself and also, you know, can be managed.
[17:46]So important.
[17:47]Along with that chapter, I would say chapter five and chapter six.
[17:51]So chapter five, if and or but complimentary and alternative therapies.
[17:56]So I think that's a really interesting chapter.
[17:58]Shabbat with two T's.
[18:00]True.
[18:01]Of course.
[18:01]A button for punishment or I so shouldn't have eaten that, diet and edible therapies.
[18:07]Those are, you know, some of the chapters that I love.
[18:10]I mean, we got to interview experts that talk about everything from mindfulness, meditation,
[18:16]movement.
[18:16]We interviewed a celebrity trainer.
[18:19]We talked to Ariana Huffington sister who talks about the importance of breath work.
[18:25]We delve into functional medicine.
[18:28]We talk a lot about the foods that you're eating.
[18:31]We even talk about the importance of stool testing at home stool tests and all of these
[18:36]really cool things that you can have access to like artificial intelligence now can track your
[18:42]stool for you and compare it against the Bristol stool chart.
[18:45]It can, you can buy devices for your toilet that can detect colon cancer.
[18:49]I mean, really cool stuff.
[18:51]And it's amazing just the time that we're living in.
[18:53]And I would say that kind of like the book, what to expect when you're expecting that you get
[18:57]before you start a family and maybe before you get pregnant or something like that.
[19:02]That's what I hope that this book can sort of be for people.
[19:05]It's a guide that we've spent years compiling all of the information into one place.
[19:10]And it can be dense.
[19:11]And I think the way we deliver it with humor, Judy, so funny.
[19:15]I think just the way that we put it all together, even if there's something in here,
[19:19]you're like, well, I don't have IBD.
[19:21]Okay.
[19:22]Great skip to the chapter on celiac.
[19:25]I don't have celiac or IBD.
[19:27]Okay, great.
[19:28]We talked so much about IBS in the book or diverticulitis, which I feel like everybody now
[19:34]is telling me they've had or have microplitis.
[19:37]So I really feel like there's something in there for everybody.
[19:40]Truly, 45 million Americans have IBS.
[19:44]45 million Americans need to read this book then.
[19:47]Seriously, we will be looking at the numbers.
[19:49]And if they don't equal 45 million, you guys better get on it right now.
[19:53]Okay, just to close, tell me something gutsy that you have both done recently.
[20:00]You already said mine. I posted something crazy yesterday that I didn't know anybody would care about that I was about my bullying and I have I could cry
[20:10]I have 800 comments of people telling me that they're going to show this to their teen daughters or their sons.
[20:17]I had the most terrible, terrible time in middle school and high school. I thought I wouldn't survive and it's shaped the person I am and it's given me the confidence to write a book like this.
[20:27]So that is probably the most recent gutsy thing I've done and it's, you know, we all are carrying our own cross right like we all have our own cross to bear so we've all been through something and if me sharing about my bowel disease is going to help somebody else then you know what I'm glad to be the one to do it with Judy.
[20:46]It's amazing. Thank you for sharing all of it on all sides. Judy, how about you?
[20:53]Recent gutsy things trying to avoid the question gutsy thing. I mean we're writing this book putting ourselves out there really putting ourselves out there.
[21:01]You know gutsy is relative I guess. I was thinking what did I do recently? Well I developed in the past few years a tear like a horrible fear of turbulence and it's caused me a lot of issues around flying.
[21:15]and I've been on eight flights in the past two weeks and that felt very you know I wasn't going to let the anxiety run the show and that sounds silly to most people as a gutsy thing but for me it felt very brave and so that felt gutsy to me. I went on the planes.
[21:34]Good for you.
[21:36]Selena Gomez has been Benny Blanco takes boats to Europe because he's afraid of flying so Judy like you're that's amazing. It is amazing. Thank you. I mean good for you. Anyone facing a fear and obviously.
[21:51]You when we go to LA for the book tour then. I'm very excited you guys will be in LA. I don't know if this is running before after but delighted you'll be a divvies book shop with Olympian Gabriel Reese like that's amazing.
[22:05]Wow. So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing. You didn't have to do this. You're both so successful in your own way and already you know with so many other things like this is the last thing you needed to do and you're doing it for other people and it's amazing.
[22:20]And I know you're trying to end the episode but I will say you literally are like doing so many amazing things like running a publishing company running a family and a household being an amazing friend and wife and events and the way you show it for other authors and all the things that you do and all the books that you write
[22:41]and how open you are. Yes, how open you are. Yes, you are reading your latest book. I was just saying and it's so open that it's touched me to by how open and honest you look hold on don't don't don't leave.
[22:55]I even have it in my office. I even have blank. Oh my gosh you guys.
[23:03]Not even the most recent one but see I'm reading it now but we're taking a page out of your book zippy that's what we're doing so we hope to you know behalf as successful as you and the metric of success I will say is not how many books are sold it is how many people we touch and already I feel like we are.
[23:30]I don't want to cry but I already know we are success we already are successful any message that we get of somebody that says this book help them you know what then our jobs is.
[23:41]achieved so my gosh you are also 45 million wouldn't be a bad number so all of you call us a few weeks we'll let you know yeah you are total superstars and massively successful in my eyes no matter what happens with this.
[23:58]So congrats and I already have multiple people in mind who I will be gifting it to so good thank you thank you guys thank you.
[24:08]Thank you for listening to totally booked with zippy formerly momstone have time to read books if you loved the show tell a friend leave a review follow me on instagram at zippy Owens and spread the word thanks so much oh and bye the books.